Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Doesn't matter, Frog still triumphed.

Feeling vindicated yet?

Smooth Criminal

 

[juddy96]

Elaxio crushed Bayo and ZSS. Neither character is a problem for Greninja.

Of course, Griffith busts out a pocket Sheik and instantly starts taking games.

But Elaxio won! Against Sheik nonetheless. Such a clutch win with weak Nair to Usmash, but we take those. That MU still kind of sucks, but it's winnable.

Griffith has mained Sheik for a long time. Just hadn't been using Sheik as much since Bayo came out.

 

[bc1910]

Griffith has mained Sheik for a long time. Just hadn't been using Sheik as much since Bayo came out.

His Sheik didn't look particularly polished, is what I meant. Seems to have been relegated to pocket since Bayo came out. He uses a lot more ZSS as well.

Still, the win means a bit more in that case. All's well that ends well.

 

[HoSmash4]

His Sheik didn't look particularly polished, is what I meant. Seems to have been relegated to pocket since Bayo came out. He uses a lot more ZSS as well.

Still, the win means a bit more in that case. All's well that ends well.

Yeah griffiths sheik is being used less as he uses zss/bayo more. Griffith's sheik routinely dispatched elexiao prepatch, I believe there's a few vids from a old SAC

Also I'm not convinced sheik is a bad matchup for greninja anymore when max rage greninja can kill sheik at 60% off nair to Upsmash. When sheik just feeds rage every stock being at kill % at 60 is not good at all as that basically means greninja needs 3 conversions in neutral not even counting chip shirkken damage.
Lets not underestimate the 84-81 weight nerf especially when you're going to get rage vs sheik. sheik makes greninja look like a heavyweight % wise...

 

[bc1910]

Yeah griffiths sheik is being used less as he uses zss/bayo more. Griffith's sheik routinely dispatched elexiao prepatch, I believe there's a few vids from a old SAC

Also I'm not convinced sheik is a bad matchup for greninja anymore when max rage greninja can kill sheik at 60% off nair to Upsmash. When sheik just feeds rage every stock being at kill % at 60 is not good at all as that basically means greninja needs 3 conversions in neutral not even counting chip shirkken damage.
Lets not underestimate the 84-81 weight nerf especially when you're going to get rage vs sheik. sheik makes greninja look like a heavyweight % wise...

Sheik still craps on Greninja in neutral, as we saw. It's the same steamroller, just not quite as big and heavy as before. In fairness I think Elexiao could have made more of shurikens (they are very good in that MU now) but they still have to be used carefully.

Sheik shouldn't actually be getting hit by weak Nair at all, Griffith just made a colossal error. It looked to me like a slightly mistimed dash to shield but he had no reason to be challenging Elexiao's landing like that anyway, especially when Elaxiao was clearly fishing for weak Nair.

I only saw games 4 and 5, but every stock Griffith lost until that moment was taken by Uthrow. Meanwhile Greninja still has to worry about needles to BF, the Ftilt 50/50 and BF edgeguards (bearing in mind Greninja can't really edgeguard Sheik). The kill power differential in the Greninja/Sheik MU isn't that big in practice, despite being huge on paper. Greninja's KCs are really hard to land on her, and the occasional ability to clutch a kill at 60% doesn't tip the MU.

The MU is significantly better but it's still a fair way away from even IMO.

Though for what it's worth, Greninja's high level record against Sheik in 1.1.5 isn't bad. iStudying lost to K9 2-1 but was able to take a game, and Elexiao beat Griffith 3-2 for the first time. I do think Sonic is Greninja's worst MU now, not Sheik.

 

[ARISTOS]

Yeah griffiths sheik is being used less as he uses zss/bayo more. Griffith's sheik routinely dispatched elexiao prepatch, I believe there's a few vids from a old SAC

Also I'm not convinced sheik is a bad matchup for greninja anymore when max rage greninja can kill sheik at 60% off nair to Upsmash. When sheik just feeds rage every stock being at kill % at 60 is not good at all as that basically means greninja needs 3 conversions in neutral not even counting chip shirkken damage.
Lets not underestimate the 84-81 weight nerf especially when you're going to get rage vs sheik. sheik makes greninja look like a heavyweight % wise...

Yeah, this has been the way Sheik has operated, even pre-patch. If you could find yourself at a stock advantage, beating Sheik got a ton easier, because followups usually didn't work, w/o rage Uair didn't kill, and she then had to take risks. Main difference was before she'd kill you first. Now her flaw has been blown wide open for every single member of the cast to abuse.

 

[FullMoon]

Speaking of iStudying vs K9, the latter mentioned the former beating him in most of the friendlies they played. Sure, it's friendlies, but it shows that Greninja can deal with Sheik well now. If I remember right iStudying was also really tired during Pound because of timezone issues, so he wasn't quite in top shape for Pound (still got 25th tho)

Also N-Air -> Up-Smash by itself shouldn't make the Sheik MU even for Greninja, not only did it always work, trying to hit with it means you're effectively trying to land a frame 14 N-Air which has a fairly small hitbox, against someone like Sheik that's not going to happen very often unless you get a read.

The comeback factor is very real in that MU though.

 

[sedrf]

esam released a video on
Slight Advantage/Solid Advantage
for pikachu

 

[HoSmash4]

Yeah perfect Sheik play still shuts down Greninja like almost every character but reads are something in this game.

 

[Deleted member]

esam released a video on
Slight Advantage/Solid Advantage
for pikachu

>says Palutena has no kill setups

Does he not know that she has jab to up tilt, and that jab to fsmash/usmash is a usable mixup too?

Besides my quip with that, I'm surprised he thinks Pika beats Luigi. Do results support this or no?

 

[sedrf]

tbh no one plays palutena,but still no one cares enough to say anything.
Why has no body call him out on this if you guys care so much.
looking at the reception to this and how lowly the thread feels about the pokemon.
It would look like there would be more backlash.

 

[my_T]

It's probably worthy to mention I'm pretty sure Sonic doesn't have much claim to these standards either (I'm pretty sure 6WX doesn't, he beat Nairo once ages ago but it was Nairo's Pit. Oh by the way 6WX seems like an awesome guy, I feel bad for citing him when I talk about why I don't believe in Sonic) whilst maintaining regularly (slightly) lower results strength than Ness (according to Das Koopa 's results chart) and I don't think a lot of people think he's worse than 10th.

I also don't really agree that Ness loses to G&W, Shulk, Marth, Villager or Mario and I think MK, Bayo and both Pits are shaky assertments at best. Most characters in the former group I believe are pretty even: G&W is stupidly volatile with not much high level evidence but intermediate evidence doesn't really suggest this either - Kodystri and GimR have an old set together where GimR loses solidly to patient smart plays by Kodystri and mostly gets outread in game 1 and game 2 is pretty close - so yeah, Mario is like, FOW vs Ally may have been won due to an SD by Ally but FOW was up 2-1 already due to a poor switch to Rosa by Ally and the games were usually pretty close stock for stock. Villager is one decently close set between FOW and Ranai and the aforementioned SS vs FOW which I don't think indicates a particular advantage but take it as you will. Marth and Shulk I also don't believe there's too much evidence for, there's an old, semi-lopsided match between Mik! and Relaxed where it seems like Ness just does too much damage to Shulk when he gets in for it to actually be bad. Marth I can barely find anything for and I don't trust my own experiences right now to give my personal take but it doesn't seem lopsided to me either.

I won't go into the latter group but they're ones there's either mixed evidence for or not enough evidence for. I will agree Corrin is a losing MU for us.

I appreciate and applaud your research, but I think you threw out too many characters that 'seem' like they'd do well against Ness and listed them as counters. I would argue this isn't the case.

I feel that you're being way too optimistic about these match-ups

In regards to what you said about sonic. Yes people think he is top 10. Why? Komorikiri has done wonders with sonic in japan and still does quite well with him when he pulls him out. 6wx's sonic is really good and has good results but komo's is better IMO. Also sonic has a really good neutral, disadvantage state, and recovery; two of which ness is not so great at. Thats why people think sonic is top 10

And about Gimr losing to Kodystri. From the way you describe it it sounds more like Gimr lost to Kodystri as a player instead of G & W losing to Ness.

Also FOW has never played against Ally in an offline tournament iirc. The set you and I are talking about is FOW vs Anti. I really shouldn't have even used this one because he SD'd with mario and switched to rosa for one match. Ally on the other hand is 2-0 over Shakys ness and after researching I don't think Nakat's ness has even beaten Allys mario in a single match. On top of that, there's theory.

As for SS and Ranai. SS isn't as good as FOW skill wise, and as I expected Ranai won because Ranai is actually on par with FOW in terms of raw skill.

Mario's Usmash, cape, and fludd are huge threats in neutral against ness. Usmash discourages aerial approaches/defenses. Fludd can control space. Cape renders PK fire and thunder useless in neutral. Mario also has much better CQC. Recovering against mario is terrible. He can harass you with fire balls if you recover low, fludd is very threatening if you recover high, cape is threatening at every angle. Edge-guarding mario is a lot more risky because of cape. you will likely have to go off stage with him and use ness's aerials. Also, mario is on the heavy side so ness' kill power isn't that big a deal in this match-up unless ness has a good deal of rage

Ness' pros. Psi magnet stops fireball approaches/zoning making neutral play a little more manageable. Ness wins the aerial battle because of his disjoints, range, damage output, and marios lack thereof.

In conclusion, mario's not a hard counter by any means but he definitely wins the match-up.

G & W- Dthrow combos/combos in general stop working very early because of G & W's weight. G & W's ground game is much better than ness'. Ness also has a hard time landing against G & W because of his armored, low end-lag (1 frame safer than marios), killing Usmash. So yeah, no falling uair and bair for you . Damn near impossible to edge-guard G & W because his aerials can contest with ness', G & W can go really deep where as ness can't, and the invulnerability on G & W's up-b. Recovering to the stage with ness is damn near the complete opposite because G & W can edge-guard deep horizontally/vertically, and he can bucket PK thunder (possibly giving him an oil panic ). Then you've bucket. This move is really good in this match-up. PK thunder and fire are useless in this match-up because of bucket. So that means no PK fire to space or punish landings. Even on hit G & W can bucket enough pillars of fire to get an oil panic almost instantly. Also no juggling/edge-guarding with PK thunder (one of the best things about ness IMO). Oil panic kills dumb early and he can combo into it out of a grab and can hold onto it in between stocks.

As for ness' pros. Ness's neutral is meh but so is G & W's. G & W still has a better neutral in this particular match-up though; but G & W won't be running over ness in neutral like some of ness' other bad match-ups. Ness will get more reward when he wins neutral because of his high damage output and G & W's weight. G & W most likely will not live past 110 and can die at about 80 by the edge.

in conclusion, this match-up isn't horrible by any means but there's no way ness isn't losing this match-up considering all the pros G & W has going for him.

I can go into detail for some of the other match-ups i mentioned later. To finish this post off, ness is not top 10. He is lacking in very important areas; neutral, recovery, and his disadvantage (it's not bad just decent) ain't nothing to write home about either. Neutral is without a doubt the most important aspect of a character followed by disadvantage then recovery. Kill power/options mean nothing if you're getting ran through in neutral. DK is a testament to this; can kill as early as 50%-80% off of a grab and he's not even close to top tier . Then you have sheik, after 1.1.5 she doesn't even know what killing is and is still easily top 10 in the game, debated top 5.

 

[Amadeus9]

tbh no one plays palutena,but still no one cares enough to say anything.
Why has no body call him out on this if you guys care so much.
looking at the reception to this and how lowly the thread feels about the pokemon.
It would look like there would be more backlash.

I haven't even bothered to watch any of it because I know (from experience) it's just going to be an infuriating waste of time. Which is why I haven't pitched in on it at all. Dunno about others.

 

[bc1910]

tbh no one plays palutena,but still no one cares enough to say anything.
Why has no body call him out on this if you guys care so much.
looking at the reception to this and how lowly the thread feels about the pokemon.
It would look like there would be more backlash.

Calling him out would accomplish nothing. You're talking about a guy with nearly a decade of fierce character loyalty which has made him, in the nicest way possible, a bit deluded. He's never going to accept that Pika doesn't have the results or MUs of a top 10 character.

ESAM's analysis of the even and disadvantaged MUs was good though. I agree with everything he said about Pika/Greninja except the stuff about Shadow Sneak and he didn't ignore Pika's weaknesses when talking about any of the disadvantaged or even MUs.

His problem is ignoring Pikachu's weaknesses in other MUs where he personally has never been given much trouble, when other players have and/or the MU is clearly not in Pika's favour on paper. The Sonic MU, for example, shouldn't be listed as Pika's favour.

 

[juddy96]

Mr. R won 2-1 over Kogarasuma's Lucina in pools at Super Smash at the Hill. Really good set, Mr. R demolished him in game 3 though.

 

[Illusion.]

@Emblem Lord What's the vs. MU? AzureJose just beat DJ Jack at the TGL monthly: http://challonge.com/tglmonthly4smash4singles

 

[Bowserboy3]

problem isn't his neutral, but the fact that he gets blown up in disadvantage and generally has a hard time landing. Advantage isn't too bad but a lot of it is positioning and waiting for an opponent to press a punishable button. Unfortunately, if you're not in tipper range it's not really too rewarding. Tipper F-tilt is amazing.

What I enjoy when looking at arguments about Marth is people hammering home the point of how "unrewarding" Marth's sourspots are. I am not calling you out specifically, but some people make it sound like Marth HAS to land a tipper. If some people actually took the time to learn the character as opposed to spouting theory, they'd realise that while the moves are unrewarding in terms of KO power, or shield safety, but a lot of times, a sourspot can get you a combo when hitting a tipper wouldn't.

Take it like this. If I were to land a tipper Up Tilt at around... 15-20 ish percent, the knockback of the move would be too much to follow up with another Up Tilt. The only option here would be to go for an aerial. However, if I landed sour Up Tilt at this range, the recent frame buff, tied in with the lower knockback would allow me to get another Up Tilt, possibly a tipper Up Tilt, which can then lead into an Up Air. At higher percents, sour Up Tilt can lead into an Up Air, when a tipper one, cannot. While this might sound minor on paper, sourspots can help Marth in more situations.

Another example; I land a couple of Up Tilts. From here, I hit the opponent with a Back Air. If I were to hit with the tipper, at mid percents, I would knock them too far away for a follow up. However, the sourspot, once again can lead into another move; Forward Air, which, depending on the percent, can tipper, or could hit the sourspot, then into double jump tipper Forward Air.

Another, yet simple example. Tipper Down Tilt is good for punishing near or on the ledge. However, the sourspot of Down Tilt has arguably more use than the tipper. Sour Down Tilt can lead into Dancing Blade or a grab at lower percents when hitting the tipper would not allow. At higher percents when the sourspot causes tumble, if the opponent misses the tech (of which the tech is rather hard to time), running Dolphin Slash, or foxtrot cancelled Forward Smash is another great option. Again, the tipper would launch too far for this to work.

Sour Jab 1 can lead into a grab, that's a nice thing to remember.

I can understand the point about the trouble landing. I am not saying that these totally remedy it, but people seem to forget he can B reverse Shield Breaker to mix up his direction (something I have seen players like Pugwest and VeXx use a lot), and that his Neutral Air is a relatively good move to throw out on landing; 12 frames of landing lag is extremely low in comparison to general landing lag amongst the cast.

My problem for most Marth's these days is they are trying to play Marth too aggressively. Marth is far more scary and threatening walking and playing more defensively, utilising retreating Forward Air, walking Down Tilt and Jab 1. While he should go on the offensive during his game, I don't see enough of his better options or tools from Marth players. Sure, while it's not the most entertaining or fun way to play, but you can't argue that it works pretty well.

And recently, Marth's results have indeed been more consistent. Taking this alone into account, Marth certainly can't be a low tier character. I'd say at worst, he's mid.

 

[FullMoon]

Wow I just looked at the bracket of that French tournament and Elexiao did one hell of a Losers run through it.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think ESAM overrates Pikachu's edgeguarding. The fact that that he says that Pikachu can effectively edgeguard ZSS and Mewtwo is very suspect.

He also keeps putting match ups that he claims are winning that he historically loses. Nairo and Marss beat him, and Larry Lurr has beaten him, but he still thinks there winning anyway. He acknowledges he loses to their mains too. It's just . . . weird.

 

[L9999]

I feel that you're being way too optimistic about these match-ups

In regards to what you said about sonic. Yes people think he is top 10. Why? Komorikiri has done wonders with sonic in japan and still does quite well with him when he pulls him out. 6wx's sonic is really good and has good results but komo's is better IMO. Also sonic has a really good neutral, disadvantage state, and recovery; two of which ness is not so great at. Thats why people think sonic is top 10

And about Gimr losing to Kodystri. From the way you describe it it sounds more like Gimr lost to Kodystri as a player instead of G & W losing to Ness.

Also FOW has never played against Ally in an offline tournament iirc. The set you and I are talking about is FOW vs Anti. I really shouldn't have even used this one because he SD'd with mario and switched to rosa for one match. Ally on the other hand is 2-0 over Shakys ness and after researching I don't think Nakat's ness has even beaten Allys mario in a single match. On top of that, there's theory.

As for SS and Ranai. SS isn't as good as FOW skill wise, and as I expected Ranai won because Ranai is actually on par with FOW in terms of raw skill.

Mario's Usmash, cape, and fludd are huge threats in neutral against ness. Usmash discourages aerial approaches/defenses. Fludd can control space. Cape renders PK fire and thunder useless in neutral. Mario also has much better CQC. Recovering against mario is terrible. He can harass you with fire balls if you recover low, fludd is very threatening if you recover high, cape is threatening at every angle. Edge-guarding mario is a lot more risky because of cape. you will likely have to go off stage with him and use ness's aerials. Also, mario is on the heavy side so ness' kill power isn't that big a deal in this match-up unless ness has a good deal of rage

Ness' pros. Psi magnet stops fireball approaches/zoning making neutral play a little more manageable. Ness wins the aerial battle because of his disjoints, range, damage output, and marios lack thereof.

In conclusion, mario's not a hard counter by any means but he definitely wins the match-up.

G & W- Dthrow combos/combos in general stop working very early because of G & W's weight. G & W's ground game is much better than ness'. Ness also has a hard time landing against G & W because of his armored, low end-lag (1 frame safer than marios), killing Usmash. So yeah, no falling uair and bair for you . Damn near impossible to edge-guard G & W because his aerials can contest with ness', G & W can go really deep where as ness can't, and the invulnerability on G & W's up-b. Recovering to the stage with ness is damn near the complete opposite because G & W can edge-guard deep horizontally/vertically, and he can bucket PK thunder (possibly giving him an oil panic ). Then you've bucket. This move is really good in this match-up. PK thunder and fire are useless in this match-up because of bucket. So that means no PK fire to space or punish landings. Even on hit G & W can bucket enough pillars of fire to get an oil panic almost instantly. Also no juggling/edge-guarding with PK thunder (one of the best things about ness IMO). Oil panic kills dumb early and he can combo into it out of a grab and can hold onto it in between stocks.

As for ness' pros. Ness's neutral is meh but so is G & W's. G & W still has a better neutral in this particular match-up though; but G & W won't be running over ness in neutral like some of ness' other bad match-ups. Ness will get more reward when he wins neutral because of his high damage output and G & W's weight. G & W most likely will not live past 110 and can die at about 80 by the edge.

in conclusion, this match-up isn't horrible by any means but there's no way ness isn't losing this match-up considering all the pros G & W has going for him.

I can go into detail for some of the other match-ups i mentioned later. To finish this post off, ness is not top 10. He is lacking in very important areas; neutral, recovery, and his disadvantage (it's not bad just decent) ain't nothing to write home about either. Neutral is without a doubt the most important aspect of a character followed by disadvantage then recovery. Kill power/options mean nothing if you're getting ran through in neutral. DK is a testament to this; can kill as early as 50%-80% off of a grab and he's not even close to top tier . Then you have sheik, after 1.1.5 she doesn't even know what killing is and is still easily top 10 in the game, debated top 5.

The answer for Mario is simple. Don't approach like an idiot and space, don't throw out PKFs and respect the range of Mario's attacks. Easier said than done, but yeah, it's from experience. I overrespected and got scared of Mario's stuff this year and until last month I lost to EVERY Mario I dared to face. F.L.U.D.D controlling space? That's silly, using F.L.U.D.D over and over is not a good idea, fireball mindgames and grab fishing are much better options for controlling space. PKF is read only, and smart Mario players won't spam the cape all time because that is punishable, and that goes for Ness pamming PKF. PKT can bait the cape out when Mario is on the air and always good for edgeguarding. Cape is slow and wrong timing gets you killed. And edgeguarding Ness isn't THAT easy. Good ones mixup their jumps, use rising aerials, magnet, etc. but yes, offstage is bad for Ness. It is almost guaranteed that Ness will have rage fighting Mario, and you state it as if Back Throw was Ness' only kill move. Down Smash, Uair, Bair, Nair offstage. Ness-Mario is a test of a Ness player's patience and spacing, but it's one annoying test.

On Game and Watch. Ness-GnW is more than D-Throw. Up Smash is effective but it can get predictable, and Ness is juggle food anyways. And why using Up Smash when GnW has Uair to mess up positions more? On egeguarding, yes, it is not worth it. The thing I wrote earlier sums up Bucket. PKF is for reads, not neutral, bucketing all the time is predictable. Just because GnW can absorb it doesn't mean I can't use my projectiles carefully. Yes, PKT is more situational, but it is not unusable. Bucket has really crappy ending lag btw, it can easily be punished. This is another test of patience. More than Mario because good GnWs are hard to come by and get good knowledge on the MU.

To conclude my wall of text no one is debating Ness is top 10, but thanks for listing his real flaws, everybody just cites that Space Witch and Devil Star () are Ness' only problem, when there is more to it.

 

[Megamang]

The reason this isn't total cognitive dissonance is ESAM believes (I think reasonably) that he is far from optimal pika play. He says himself he doesn't live in the best area for tough competition. So, he has lots of success with his early edgeguarding skills, he probably believes there is linear feedback and if he were to put more time and labwork into the edgeguarding, he would be able to edgeguard at an even higher level. And so forth with the rest of pika's game.

Also, he has said that he could play 'lame' in certain MUs. On paper, pikachu can sit on a platform and fire tjolts and some characters are hard pressed to do anything with risk/reward in their favor. Of course, ESAM never plays like this. So there is another thing that could make Pika greater than the sum of his ESAM.
---
Personally, I believe his style is closer to optimal than most think. Neutral can be played campy and defensive, but sheer aggression once you get in is the best way to abuse pika's frame data/safety/short disjoint/gimping/not guaranteed kill setups.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think ESAM overrates Pikachu's edgeguarding. The fact that that he says that Pikachu can effectively edgeguard ZSS and Mewtwo is very suspect.

He also keeps putting match ups that he claims are winning that he historically loses. Nairo and Marss beat him, and Larry Lurr has beaten him, but he still thinks there winning anyway. He acknowledges he loses to their mains too. It's just . . . weird.

He's putting all the loses on him and not on his character being bad or something I guess. He also kinda blames it on his schedule and how he can't practice like ZeRo or VoiD or w/e top top player out there. I can kinda understand how his beliefs were formed.

It's like complete anti-scrub into the other side of the spectrum.

 

[Megamang]

I'd really love it if he sat down with Void for an entire day of edgeguarding practice. Then we'd have definitive answers like, is there a universally safe sequence against pika, where you force his hand and then beat his response? Or, is the onus on all on pikachu, where he can pick a correct option at any point and end your stock offstage? That would give us a lot of insight into the true max power level of pikachu, because all we know right now is that ESAM goes for randy edgeguards which sometimes looks awesome and sometimes gets him bopped.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Illusion. Emblem Lord has said previously that he thinks Falco is one of Ryu's easiest matchups by a wide margin, not sure why. I can see how a Falco could win it seeing his wealth of multihits beat Focus Attack, but in general it would seem like Ryu's raw firepower and strong tools overwhelm Falco's general mediocre-ness.

 

[Yikarur]

Result of a 96 Man regional in germany

1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz

Recordings:
https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526
I can especially recommend the loser finals. This is a really really good set. It starts here: https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526?t=07h34m59s

 

[Y2Kay]

Result of a 96 Man regional in germany

1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz

Recordings:
https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526
I can especially recommend the loser finals. This is a really really good set. It starts here: https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526?t=07h34m59s

Good work, man!

I also see @Eddy is still gettin' consistent placings with the frog, props to you too pal!

 

[DblCrest]

Yikarur
Nice going!
Was it default Brawler you were using with the Yoshter?

Edit: Will check it out when I get home.

 

[zeldasmash]

Nice Top 8! Really nice seeing the Brawler in action.

Is it just me, or in the past 2-3 weeks, i've been seeing plenty of Link's crack Top 8-Top 16?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

More Toon Link outside of Mexico, solo Ike in 2nd, random Link out of nowhere, and a Brawler exists!

EDIT: Also watching that timestamped set: man Corrin recovery looks absolutely free to punish at times

 

[Shaya]

Result of a 96 Man regional in germany

1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz

I remember the days when one swordie/sword wielding character in a top 8 in a competitive region was pretty surprising.
Now we're the top 75%.
I s'pose busted DLC maybe shouldn't count

On the other side, Marth still has problems, but he does actually have a functional game plan now that can succeed. Turning a useless move (fair) into a useful KO move and is decent at outspacing things, making down tilt god like and other shindigs were incredibly helpful, it cannot be understated. Up Air is kinda criminally difficult and the reward doesn't seem there for it in comparison.
But just about everything else is rosy "enough", there's still quite a few undertuned aspects (throw damage, DS hitboxes, walking accel/initial dash [which would rectify the ghastly dash to shield length]) but he has strong tools so he's capable of executing properly and coming out on top.

For the longest time it's been said, but now it's very apparent, that for every top tier taken down a peg, he gets considerably better - as those are the only characters that pose a threat (by kinda just shutting him down from being able to achieve anything through harsh attrition). But those characters are few at this point: Sonic, Fox, Bayonetta, Cloud. He's not the hugest fan of Diddy, Sheik or ZSS either but they no longer completely outclass him in what is meant to be his strengths.

He may have some difficult match ups out there that aren't top tiers, but I kinda doubt much of any of them are worse than evenish.

I can't wait to talk about how busted/broken/amazing Roy is next patch; maybe some of that love will still find itself in Marth ala mewtwo treatment.

 

[my_T]

The answer for Mario is simple. Don't approach like an idiot and space, don't throw out PKFs and respect the range of Mario's attacks. Easier said than done, but yeah, it's from experience. I overrespected and got scared of Mario's stuff this year and until last month I lost to EVERY Mario I dared to face. F.L.U.D.D controlling space? That's silly, using F.L.U.D.D over and over is not a good idea, fireball mindgames and grab fishing are much better options for controlling space. PKF is read only, and smart Mario players won't spam the cape all time because that is punishable, and that goes for Ness pamming PKF. PKT can bait the cape out when Mario is on the air and always good for edgeguarding. Cape is slow and wrong timing gets you killed. And edgeguarding Ness isn't THAT easy. Good ones mixup their jumps, use rising aerials, magnet, etc. but yes, offstage is bad for Ness. It is almost guaranteed that Ness will have rage fighting Mario, and you state it as if Back Throw was Ness' only kill move. Down Smash, Uair, Bair, Nair offstage. Ness-Mario is a test of a Ness player's patience and spacing, but it's one annoying test.

On Game and Watch. Ness-GnW is more than D-Throw. Up Smash is effective but it can get predictable, and Ness is juggle food anyways. And why using Up Smash when GnW has Uair to mess up positions more? On egeguarding, yes, it is not worth it. The thing I wrote earlier sums up Bucket. PKF is for reads, not neutral, bucketing all the time is predictable. Just because GnW can absorb it doesn't mean I can't use my projectiles carefully. Yes, PKT is more situational, but it is not unusable. Bucket has really crappy ending lag btw, it can easily be punished. This is another test of patience. More than Mario because good GnWs are hard to come by and get good knowledge on the MU.

To conclude my wall of text no one is debating Ness is top 10, but thanks for listing his real flaws, everybody just cites that Space Witch and Devil Star () are Ness' only problem, when there is more to it.

First I need to correct myself on the Ally vs Shaky score. As far as I know Ally is winning 2 to 1.

Also, about spacing with flood, check out Ally and Shaky's set at Genesis 3 and you'll see what I'm talking about. And thanks for pointing out GnW's uair, completely forgot about it. So there's GnW's uair and usmash that u have to worry about when landing or in the air.

Also, I never said anything about spamming, spacing, or playing patient. These things come down to the player and not the character; though, for the sake of debate, lets assume that both players are playing optimally and that both players can switch from aggro to patient/campy at any given moment.

I merely pointed out the utility of mario and GnW's tools against ness and the utility of ness' tools against them. I'm not saying these match-ups aren't winnable because they are, but they are not in ness' favor. I said that they are -1 in GnW and marios favor at worst

 

[Das Koopa]

So, tournies I'll look into documenting:

-TGL Monthly 4
-SAC 25
-Frese Smash(?)

Any others, + any ones upcoming this Sunday?

 

[sedrf]

Hail smash might get some lookiing into

 

[Nobie]

I remember the days when one swordie/sword wielding character in a top 8 in a competitive region was pretty surprising.
Now we're the top 75%.
I s'pose busted DLC maybe shouldn't count

On the other side, Marth still has problems, but he does actually have a functional game plan now that can succeed. Turning a useless move (fair) into a useful KO move and is decent at outspacing things, making down tilt god like and other shindigs were incredibly helpful, it cannot be understated. Up Air is kinda criminally difficult and the reward doesn't seem there for it in comparison.
But just about everything else is rosy "enough", there's still quite a few undertuned aspects (throw damage, DS hitboxes, walking accel/initial dash [which would rectify the ghastly dash to shield length]) but he has strong tools so he's capable of executing properly and coming out on top.

For the longest time it's been said, but now it's very apparent, that for every top tier taken down a peg, he gets considerably better - as those are the only characters that pose a threat (by kinda just shutting him down from being able to achieve anything through harsh attrition). But those characters are few at this point: Sonic, Fox, Bayonetta, Cloud. He's not the hugest fan of Diddy, Sheik or ZSS either but they no longer completely outclass him in what is meant to be his strengths.

He may have some difficult match ups out there that aren't top tiers, but I kinda doubt much of any of them are worse than evenish.

I can't wait to talk about how busted/broken/amazing Roy is next patch; maybe some of that love will still find itself in Marth ala mewtwo treatment.

Meanwhile Mr. E takes 3rd at Collision XIII, behind Nairo (1st) and DKWill. I do love how Marth's fair basically covers that weird space he had between low and high percents.

 

[Asdioh]

Mr R just double eliminated Marss (3rd place) to secure his spot against Dabuz in grand finals. Both sets were 3-0. https://www.twitch.tv/bigbluees

It was incredible seeing Mr R's download. I know he's always been good, but watching him go from being pretty even against Marss, into stomping him, was crazy. It's also amazing how Sheik still manages to be so good when she frequently doesn't get kills until 130%, and ZSS occasionally gets janky 60% kills off the top.

edit: also, weren't people saying in this thread just like today or yesterday that Meta Knight was a ridiculously hard matchup for Rosalina? Something absurd like 7:3 or worse?
double edit: Mr R switched to Marth against Dabuz (still lost)

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Yikarur
Nice going!
Was it default Brawler you were using with the Yoshter?

In the set I watched he used 2122 Brawler.

Speaking of Collision XXIII (Which looks like it only had about 72 entrants otherwise I would have recommended it to Das Koopa) Even though he lost DKWill definitely showed that DK isn't anywhere near hopeless against ZSS. Lost a very close 3-2 in winner's finals. Still lost Grands, but yeah.

 

[juddy96]

Result of a 96 Man regional in germany

1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz

Recordings:
https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526
I can especially recommend the loser finals. This is a really really good set. It starts here: https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526?t=07h34m59s

Was there a challonge for this?

Also: many many notable tournaments and winners today https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mdG_NHaenY6vhnGZ-9UH3GX9UbTHzPX2ZBzpm1LM7nM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[KamikazePotato]

Always nice to see an Ike make Top 8. Major props to the Mii Fighter, too. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

 

[Amadeus9]

Mr R just double eliminated Marss (3rd place) to secure his spot against Dabuz in grand finals. Both sets were 3-0. https://www.twitch.tv/bigbluees

It was incredible seeing Mr R's download. I know he's always been good, but watching him go from being pretty even against Marss, into stomping him, was crazy. It's also amazing how Sheik still manages to be so good when she frequently doesn't get kills until 130%, and ZSS occasionally gets janky 60% kills off the top.

edit: also, weren't people saying in this thread just like today or yesterday that Meta Knight was a ridiculously hard matchup for Rosalina? Something absurd like 7:3 or worse?
double edit: Mr R switched to Marth against Dabuz (still lost)

Mr. R plays MK as expected, aka as a pocket character he doesn't fully understand.

Remember that time anti CP'd I think it was... I think this was at TBH5 but don't quote me om that. He CP'd FOW with Rosa and lost. I'm pretty sure I've never seen someone question whether Rosa beats Ness absurdly hard.

Mr. R pockets MK. He made tons of errors I could plainly see, including just completely not using the tools that make MK win the mu (NO ftilt usage at all, not going for death combo OR going for it with Luma still alive, going for things/combos at completely wrong % thresholds, improperly spacing)

So, yeah, like dude if you want a proper representation of the MU watch Aba vs Dabuz but damn this was not a proper representation of the MU

 

[NouveauRétro]

tbh no one plays palutena,but still no one cares enough to say anything.
Why has no body call him out on this if you guys care so much.
looking at the reception to this and how lowly the thread feels about the pokemon.
It would look like there would be more backlash.

TFW I got 2nd at local to Arch's Palutena after making him switch from Bayonetta :'(