Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Previously, shiek just did everything at every range better. Fair stuffed you for any jumps in CQC, needles were way stronger for zoning. Even though Ninja might have the fair length to trade, good execution from the shiek usually stuffs it before it comes out, or outright avoids it.

But now, needles don't outrange shurikans, and shiek doesn't kill greninja from just fishing for grabs... So its probably way better. This means greninja gets to survive till rage throw percents, and shiek is lighter... I've heard some greninjas say its barely disadvantaged now, and thats only due to general shiek dominating the neutral stuff every MU has.

 

[bc1910]

What makes the MU so bad? Alias says so as well.

You mean the Sonic MU? I went over the Sheik MU in my post.

Spin Dash makes any attempt to throw a shuriken or space Fair a liability, and the charged shuriken might as well not exist. If Sonic times it properly you'll just eat the dash. Greninja has no real pressure game against Sonic. Sonic can also shield shurikens from really far away and is fast enough to run up and punish, the only character capable of doing so. The Sonic MU is the only MU where shurikens are unsafe in neutral (this sort of applied to pre-patch Sheik but even then, a needle from afar had low reward).

This leaves CQC as Greninja's best option, but Greninja's CQC isn't exactly good. Sonic's isn't great either but it's still better considering he has a normal grab with good grab combos. Greninja isn't fast enough to consistently catch Sonic and stop him from camping from afar, anyway.

Spring gets Sonic out of everything and Dair is really hard for Greninja to catch, mitigating Greninja's usually strong advantage state. Sonic is also near-impossible to edgeguard. Sonic can't edgeguard Greninja as well as Sonic mains like to think (he can hit Greninja out of Hydro Pump with Spring, but Greninja can DI up and aim for the ledge again) unless they are masters at Fsmashing the 2-frame, though the edgeguard game is still in Sonic's favour.

You end up either sitting in shield the whole match anticipating Spin Dash and getting grabbed a lot, or chasing Sonic down and probably getting grabbed a lot anyway. Greninja doesn't really have any positives in this MU other than his high jumps and powerful aerials making it easy to punish Spin Dash > jump on shield. Greninja has a horrible record against Sonic in tourney, as Seagull dispatches any Greninja he fights and iStudying lost to Ixis a few months ago at a UK major.

It's 40:60 at best and I can see it being worse. The only saving grace is that Sonic is uncommon enough to not be a true roadblock against Greninja. Still, Sonic is the only MU I think Greninja requires a secondary for.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman does really well in that MU, for a mid tierish character he does great against a top 10 contender. Pellets, Leaf Shield, and strangely crash bomber put in work in that MU.

Greninja + Megaman team is OP. The world will see.

He also does pretty well vs Diddy Kong. Thats important now, and im sure itll be more important as time passes.

 

[Reapers]

So according to Abadango in his AMA, he considers Cloud and Pit as Mewtwo's worst match-ups along with Diddy Kong probably. For Cloud, he states Mewtwo has difficulty getting away from him and he can just spam his up-air. I'm curious as to how Pit may be a bad match-up though since he didn't go over it I think. Interestingly, he thinks the fox match-up is either even or slightly in Mewtwo's favor. Wasn't he considered one of Mewtwo's worst match-ups from others here?

 

[Megamang]

It was terrible, but Fox in particular the mobility and nair buff went a longer way, from what I understand of the MU.

I freakin hate Palutena as Mewtwo, personally.

 

[Peppermint1201]

For those wondering Abadango's AMA was not on a text-based website but on Twitch from chat (he was actually generating donations for his CEO travel, which he still needs).

Some reddit commenters wrote down some of his answers:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4f5aq2/abadango_is_doing_a_ama_right_now_he_can_anwser/

 

[C0rvus]

I think as people approach the skill level of the top players, we might see more character diversity on an individual basis. Abadango proved that people not knowing a MU not only generally, but at a level equal to their competition, is essential to pull out a win.

This is sooooo true. Hell, just last night, I lost in sets to a Samus and a Rosalina. Those are 2 matchups I was confident that my character had the advantage in, and I had a fair amount of knowledge on them too. But I guess I had never played mains of these characters on my level, and I lost because my decision making wasn't on point. I'll take it as a lesson in humility I guess, but it's true that MUs change drastically from low level to mid level to high level. The decisions you have to make hold more weight, and the character knowledge required of both players to compete and win is greater.

 

[LancerStaff]

So according to Abadango in his AMA, he considers Cloud and Pit as Mewtwo's worst match-ups along with Diddy Kong probably. I'm curious as to how Pit may be a bad match-up though since he didn't go over it I think.

Now that's interesting. I've always thought Pit beat Mewtwo but I never thought it was that bad for him. Reasons I can think of include...

> Pit out ranges almost everything of Mewtwo's.
> Pit can stop Mewtwo from charging whenever with arrows, even the throw > charge "combo."
> Pit wins ping pong for a ton of reasons, a newly found one being that the speed multiplier on his reflector is the highest (on a usable reflector? Kurogane's page wasn't complete).
> Pit's arrows and strong ledge snap game does a number on Mewtwo's recovery.
> Pit's arrows also have better frame data then baby Shadow Balls and can't be reflected properly if used smartly.
> Rage Electroshock + light character = dead.

I can imagine the MU being really awkward for the Mewtwo because a lot of his usual stuff doesn't work... Any objections, Mewtwos?

 

[Mario766]

What a good weekend for Ike. 2 regionals in top 2, Ryo looking better than he ever has when he isn't getting bodied by ScaTT to the point where he oddshotted ScaTT multiple times in his first set with him before Grands. It also shows that some players REALLY like their comfort stage picks and don't pick for the MU. ScaTT was showing that he knew how to pressure platforms and Ike REALLY can't get down when he is on them, but Ryo kept going back because Ike + BF = comfort heaven. Other than that

Ike vs Sonic is really good for Ike. 6wx is now, what, 0-3 vs Ike? Ryo destroys the MU and it shows when even the premier NA Sonic struggles vs him and got bodied by Rango.

I didn't watch anything from the german regional but Yoh put in lots of work with some MUs that aren't common.

One other thing: Ike vs Cloud is a lot better for Ike than some like to think. Ryo gave M2K the work, it wasn't pretty for M2K.

 

[Game7a1]

@Das Koopa Ice Arrow went Greninja (as well as he does play multiple characters, but he mains Greninja) at Super Smash on the Hill.
Just a little correction to help the data.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think it's worth noting that 6wx vs ryo went to pretty much last stock last hit. the matchup is definitely doable for . speaking of 6wx...

a lot of his top 16 placements were due to the fact he got knocked out in last stock last hit situations before reaching top 8.

 

[Megamang]

Sonic gets into last stock last hit situations more than is comfortable. I see it is a consistency problem, in that the higher your KO power/ advantage state, the less defense you need.

 

[sedrf]

http://ege.challonge.com/LanETS2016S4S
https://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial
Canadian regional almost over in Montreal,Quebec,Canada

 

[Megamang]

With mewtwo's new speed, he can wall out Fox to an extent, and also shield like everyone else.

Disjoints, on the other hand, are really annoying as M2. When you lose a projectile war too? You gotta approach him, or at least play even projectile wars, instead of almost all other MU where the opponent has to approach M2...

 

[Mario766]

Doable but Ike definitely wins the MU.

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo vs Fox is almost definitely even at this point. Mewtwo can keep up in speed, they go about even in neutral, but Mewtwo's disadvantage is decidedly better than Fox's, and he can kill off of a throw. Fox can net early kills because of Mewtwo's weight, but he has to get in on Mewtwo. It's kind of like playing a faster Marth with a projectile and a reflector, in that he doesn't want to play footsies with Mewtwo because he will lose, but when he gets in, Mewtwo really struggles. Having the best air dodge in the game definitely helps Mewtwo deal with Fox's whirlwind offense, but his big frame and weight certainly don't.

 

[Illusion.]

So.... is nobody going to mention that Hakii won a Texas monthly regional yesterday? It wasn't as stacked as usual, but it's still an accomplishment. Sol was also in attendance.

 

[Megamang]

Did Hakii ever play against Sol? I'd love to see that set, or any notable VODs you can point me towards.

 

[Illusion.]

Did Hakii ever play against Sol? I'd love to see that set, or any notable VODs you can point me towards.

Yes, they played in Loser's Semis.

http://austinsmash4.challonge.com/arfi13

The VODs are on www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4 (the set between Hakii and Sol starts at 06:24:43)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mewtwo must establish mid range dominance mainly with d-tilt, utilt and nair.

It stands to reason he will have trouble with characters that can negate his footsies with ranged disjoints and keep him from getting momentum.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Yea Pit does pretty well vs Mewtwo

Midrange game is matched with Pit's normals/arrows, arrows and reflector prevent Mewtwo shadowball camp, Pit can afford to hover around ledge when Mewtwo is recovering, and Mewtwo's trouble landing (he has one of the best juggle avoidance games, doesn't mean his landing options are safe) and against Pit's usmash, that's lethal

SuperGirlKels takes a LanLocal against Venom

Venom reset the bracket against her Sonic, and she switched off to Kirby after losing her 4th game, and brought it back.

This isn't the first time we saw Kirby beat Ryu as K.I.D. Goggles beat False Ryu at Pound.

Ryu cannot afford to jump vs Kirby, hadouken can be ducked under, and FA is stuffed out/completely avoided with fair/multijumps, and that gives him trouble approaching him in general.

 

[sedrf]

Esam released the final video in his pikachu matchup list

 

[Y2Kay]

Why does Abadango think Mewtwo beats fox but loses to pit? Weird.Generally Pit goes even with the other sword characters, such as . I do not see the matchup being so much different. The damage output, mobility, and kill potential is all in Mewtwo's favor however. In neutral they are evenly matched. Mewtwo doesn't get edge guarded that much by pit. Pit's aerial approaches are good, but he doesn't have the greatest aerial mobility or jump squat.

I don't think Mewtwo loses to any of the sword fighters, but definitely keep him on his toes.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't think Mewtwo loses to any of the sword fighters, but definitely keep him on his toes.

I can second this. I sometimes struggle against Mewtwo after his buffs, but I tend to always put up a decent performance at the very least using Marth. Sure, Mewtwo does have range, but it's not disjointed. That can sometimes become a problem in these kind of matchups, especially with his hurtbox being so big (in fact, I've gotten more forward smash tippers catching Mewtwo in his double jump than I can even count. His double jump is weird).

 

[KamikazePotato]

Ike vs. Mewtwo is a pretty even matchup. Mewtwo can work him over but all it takes is one random good read from Ike and Mewtwo dies at like 60%. That's pretty much Mewtwo vs. Any Heavy though.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't think Lucina is a whole tier below Marth or nothing, but I think the Mewtwo match up is one where the tippers matter a lot. I think this one matchup where the ratios can potentially differ between the two.

 

[420quickscoper]

Ike vs. Mewtwo is a pretty even matchup. Mewtwo can work him over but all it takes is one random good read from Ike and Mewtwo dies at like 60%. That's pretty much Mewtwo vs. Any Heavy though.

That's not a good way of looking at it. Hell, pretty much any character with some kind of strong but hard to hit move can be said for this. Mewtwo's matchups aren't so simple as "Mewtwo can get around the character but one crucial mistake and he dies at 70%"

 

[KamikazePotato]

That's how Ike works. Pretty much 2/3 of his moves can kill early, especially with rage. It's just that this is more effective on Ike than other heavies because he's a good degree faster while still hitting hard. In the Ike/Corrin semis matches I was just watching, for the most part Corrin would effectively zone out the Ike and whittle him down, oftenttimes without getting hit for long periods of time, and then Ike would make it all back with two or three good reads, and repeated this all the way to a 3-1 victory.

If you want a slightly more detailed analyis - Ike has big disjointed range on his moves and Mewtwo, being a fairly short-ranged character, doesn't like that. It makes those good reads easier to get.

 

[Deleted member]

That's how Ike works. Pretty much 2/3 of his moves can kill early, especially with rage. It's just that this is more effective on Ike than other heavies because he's a good degree faster while still hitting hard. In the Ike/Corrin semis matches I was just watching, for the most part Corrin would effectively zone out the Ike and whittle him down, oftenttimes without getting hit for long periods of time, and then Ike would make it all back with two or three good reads, and repeated this all the way to a 3-1 victory.

If you want a slightly more detailed analyis - Ike has big disjointed range on his moves and Mewtwo, being a fairly short-ranged character, doesn't like that. It makes those good reads easier to get.

Did you really just call Mewtwo short-ranged? Are we talking about the same character here? Mewtwo's range is good overall.

 

[TheGlove]

Has anyone here noticed a drop in the number of cloud teams in doubles recently. I had heard that the nerfs to finishing touch were actually not that severe and that you could just get them higher in the air to still kill really early. It seems that, at least at many larger tournaments, Ive seen less cloud teams in top 8 and even in cloud teams far fewer finishing touch kills.

Were the nerfs actually effective? Has stigma made people think cloud is not as good even though the nerfs are inconsequential? Am I just not seeing the all the cloud teams below top 8 and at lower levels of play?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

ganondorf doesn't have results lol

Discrediting a character for being bad isn't the same as "making fun" of a character. People tend to cheer for low tier heroes, but there's a reason that they're few and far between: Low tiers are low tiers for a reason. I think the Smash 4 community is unwilling to accept that some characters are very plainly bad.

ganondorf doesn't have results lol

Discrediting a character for being bad isn't the same as "making fun" of a character. People tend to cheer for low tier heroes, but there's a reason that they're few and far between: Low tiers are low tiers for a reason. I think the Smash 4 community is unwilling to accept that some characters are very plainly bad.

Isn't this the best result that Ganon has ever gotten?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3c8j2p/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_exp_2015_wii_u/

V115's ZSS takes it over Poke's Luigi/DK combo with a 3-1 after a 3-1 bracket reset from Poke.

Top 8:

1 - V115 (Zamus)

2 - Poke (Luigi)

3 - Ally (Mario)

4 - Ray Kalm (Ganondorf)

5 - Mew2King (Rosalina)

5 - Chrim Foish (Diddy Kong)

7 - Astro (Lucario/Duck Hunt)

7 - Smasher1001 (Mario/Metaknight?)

Edit: Bracket link - http://letsplaykw.challonge.com/exp2015wiiu

Edit 2: VOD for day 2, since a couple people asked - http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial/v/6956838


And if I'm not mistaken, Ganons like Adom, Opana, Pon, and Kalm himself are going to the big nationals/majors (EGLX/GOML).

 

[meleebrawler]

I can second this. I sometimes struggle against Mewtwo after his buffs, but I tend to always put up a decent performance at the very least using Marth. Sure, Mewtwo does have range, but it's not disjointed. That can sometimes become a problem in these kind of matchups, especially with his hurtbox being so big (in fact, I've gotten more forward smash tippers catching Mewtwo in his double jump than I can even count. His double jump is weird).

Except for nair, all of Mewtwo's moves have disjoint. His tail moves are disjointed at the tip, but not on their sweetspot.

 

[Y2Kay]

Except for nair, all of Mewtwo's moves have disjoint. His tail moves are disjointed at the tip, but not on their sweetspot.

just gonna remind everyone and add on that Mewtwo's sweet and sour spots on his tail are arranged like Roy's

 

[Megamang]

And, while he does suffer from a big hurtbox that makes this seem untrue at times, his tail is almost all disjoint, range wise. And near the base hits hard in the air anyways, which is good for when you do trade.

EDIT: Two people jumped in and said it better. Mewtwo is well covered in this thread =]


How do you Mewtwo's feel greninja does in this MU?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Except for nair, all of Mewtwo's moves have disjoint. His tail moves are disjointed at the tip, but not on their sweetspot.

Ok ok, but it's not a full sword length of disjoint. That is what I was referring to. It's not like when Mewtwo uses Dtilt or Ftilt his whole tail is disjointed. That is what I meant. Though he has the range, of course a real disjointed hitbox can still counteract this. That is what I was referring to.

 

[sedrf]

Rise 2016 is on
https://www.twitch.tv/sakgamingtv
Also that mexican tourney ally said he was going to is during top 32
https://www.twitch.tv/lugiacorp

 

[Y2Kay]

And, while he does suffer from a big hurtbox that makes this seem untrue at times, his tail is almost all disjoint, range wise. And near the base hits hard in the air anyways, which is good for when you do trade.

EDIT: Two people jumped in and said it better. Mewtwo is well covered in this thread =]


How do you Mewtwo's feel greninja does in this MU?

I got ya =)

I feel there evenly matched as well. Mewtwo makes shurikens unsafe usually. Greninja's good short hop and cross up game let's him hang around. Both can't really edge guard each other. Greninja can find it hard to get in for his kill confirms at times. It's ultimately who can get the first stock off the opponent.

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of good nairs, Greninja's nair against characters with slow or lackluster OOS is amazing. So much fun to bully their shield with all kinds of safe stuff that pushes them too far to punish. I've recently been trying RAR FH (SH kinda slows you down too much, but if you forgo the fastfall you can do it from a short hop) landing Nair as a crossup (once they are cowering in shield from Fair). You basically land behind their shield like melee falco, ready to mess them up while they're in an awkward spot.

Greninja's frame data is good. His fair doesn't come out fast like M2's, which is another kind of aerial dominance, but I think the trade makes him a unique and worthwhile character.

Like, I recently learned Lucario's jab is frame 6... wtf? At least his grab is f6 as well, but jeez... were they afraid of jab aura spam?

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'd like to bring up a subject that i find rather interesting: Let's talk about Bowser.

This week, if we count ConComics where DPollo is guarranted Top 8 with Bowser as of right now, we had 3 Bowsers in Top 8 of tournaments this week-end: LordMix 7th at Fusion 3, and Chaos 4th at Collision VI.
While Bowser is surely a flawed character in some ways, i feel he doesn't get enough recognition for his strong qualities: he racks up damage very well with one of the most rewarding grab thanks to the grab in itself being very good, and NeutralAir being a very damaging aerial. His ground game is overall, one of the strongest i've seen in this game, with a lot of decently ranged, strong options that may lead into his powerful grab. Side B is also amazing, i feel like its potential to trick people hasn't been used enough by Bowser mains, because, as you may know, you can land with Side B & immediatly do something else.
Disadvantage State is pretty bad, no questions asked, but at least he has some options to get out of it.

So, what are everyone's thoughts on the king of koopas?

 

[Megamang]

If he gets the grabs, he usually wins.

Fat zss.