Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

Scatt bodied M2K 3-0 in Loser's Finals. Huh.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

And then 3-0'd Ryo in GF, resetting the bracket.

 

[Y2Kay]

This is terrific edge guarding from Scatt. Ryo had a very hard time regaining stage control once he was knocked off.

 

[Das Koopa]

Scatt up 2-1 in set 2 GF vs. Ryo

 

[C0rvus]

Scatt gameplay always makes me love the look of Mega Man. But then I play him a realize how unfun his gameplan is. But I love all the tricks and tools he has. Scatt always impresses. Definitely among my favorite players.

Edit: Anyone have the YouTube channel this event will be uploaded to? Definitely want to watch the whole set.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

And Scatt takes it 6-1.

But hey, another Ike in top 2. Almost solo; he pulled out Corrin once in GF.

 

[Das Koopa]

Scatt beats Ryo 3-0 and then 3-1 to win Grand Finals of Fusion 3

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Ryo kept going to BF even thought it clearly wasn't working out for him. Honestly Ryo kept going for strange options, which cost him the game.

 

[Megamang]

M2k saying Cloud doesn't do well in the Megaman matchup. I could see it, with the ground game descrepancy + when megaman hits a nair off of lemons he gets a ledge situation, meaning his neutral converts to advantage really well in the MU. Cloud recovers a lot of the time though.

It was really cool seeing Scatt do so well.

You kinda have to go for strange options when you are being barraged with pellets. Mixups are important or you will die.

 

[Nobie]

Congrats to @ScAtt77 ! He really adjusted well to the fact that Ike could just fair through pellets.

I want to point out something big about Mega Man, which is that while characters like Mewtwo and Samus and Ike benefited from slews of patches, Mega Man has barely been patched throughout the entire history of Smash 4.

In terms of buffs, he got a better Leaf Shield.

In terms of nerfs he lost Rush Canceling (which was a glitch), and the shield stun patch was unkind to him.

Basically, any sort of substantial change that has come to Mega Man has been in the form of other characters getting buffed/nerfed, and the developments of the players themselves.

Like, you can't take away from ScAtt's victory (not that I think anyone is).

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Well I mean he could've gone for Eruption instead of the 2-frame dairs. Megaman should be easy to edgeguard with Ike. Ryo wasn't even mixing up his recovery, either.

But yeah, congrats to Scatt.

 

[Charoite]

If megaman was top tier, people would probably want him to be banned even more faster than bayo, was interesting how he adapted to Gadiel , and the other Bayo in the tournament (Saj) got double eliminated by (Brawlman1000 and 6XW)

 

[juddy96]

Quick recap of today's results (only top 3)

Super Smash on the Hill (191 entrants) Dabuz , Mr. R , Marss
Fusion 3 (162 entrants) ScAtt , Ryo , Mew2King
GatorLAN Spring 2016 (128 entrants) Dyr , Afmbot , CrazieCuban
UMN April Monthly (104 entrants) Sinnyboo242 , NameLess , Shinjoebi
Smash Bros at Church 5 (101 entrants) K9sbruce , Mr. ConCon , TLTC
Frese Smash (96 entrants) Purple~H , Yoh , Biggad
Surf City Slam (94 entrants) Zex , Legit , Rice
Spring Wars (81 entrants) Wonf , Addy , Anguiano
Collision XIII (81 entrants) Nairo , DKwill , Mr. E
SAC #25 (66 entrants) Elexiao , Griffith , Yoren
TGL Monthly 4 (65 entrants) MVD , Nick Riddle , Josh
Hail Smash II (64 entrants) Leo , Chag , 72K

Tyroy, Hakii, Riot, MJG, ESAM, Ryuga, AeroLink, and other notables took down various locals. For the full list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mdG_NHaenY6vhnGZ-9UH3GX9UbTHzPX2ZBzpm1LM7nM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[HeavyLobster]

Personally I think MM is high-mid. He's unique and hard to play, which makes it hard for him to have too many reps, but he can do amazing things in the right hands.

 

[Rizen]

Result of a 96 Man regional in germany

1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz

Recordings:
https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526
I can especially recommend the loser finals. This is a really really good set. It starts here: https://www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde/v/60925526?t=07h34m59s

Great work
What are your thoughts on the Yoshi/Link MU? IMO it's slightly in yoshi's favor. Link and Yoshi both try to force their preferred spacing with Link being more indirect. Yoshi wins at CQC but Link has a decent spacing game vs him. In the end Yoshi has a slightly easier time doing what's important like KOing.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I've tried to learn Mega Man in the past and he is one of the most unique and strange characters in the game to play. You have to adjust yourself significantly from how most other characters play. I respect the hell out of anyone that can go 9-1 starting from the Losers bracket, good show. Ryo on Ike is always good to see too.

There's a lot of usual suspects on the list juddy posted, but overall 18 different characters made the Top 3 of a dozen or so tournaments. You've even got a Palutena up there. That's a pretty good amount of variety.

 

[sedrf]

So from major results:
In top 3:

Spoiler: stats for tournies on april 16,2016

Result wise this is hardly surprising besides the amount of ikes.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Just nitpicking but all of those tournaments are hardly majors.
Nationals, and regionals yes.
But majors..naw.

On topic though, it seems like Sheik is seeing the Diddy effect early on after nerfs, which is good.

While a lot of fraud Sheiks have switched off to Bayo or Cloud, it's nice to see the rest rely on character experience and innovating with their mains.

Sheik is really fun to watch, the devs really know the middleground of making a character either abusive or garbage, they've always managed to hit the dot for a lot of the characters they've nerfed (except Luigi IMO).

 

[Das Koopa]

t-t-top 16s

Super Smash on the Hill

Spoiler

1st: Dabuz ()
2nd: Mr. R ()
3rd: Marss ()
4th: Pugwest ()
5th: Craftis ()
5th: False (, )
7th: LingLing ()
7th: Raffi-X ()
9th: Koolaid ()
9th: XL-XCVII ()
9th: Pelca ()
9th: Element_Demon ()
13th: MattyG ()
13th: Suarsuar ()
13th: Xorn ()
13th: IceArrow ()

Fusion 3

Spoiler

1st: Scatt ()
2nd: Ryo ()
3rd: Mew2King ()
4th: Fatality ()
5th: Gadiel ()
5th: 6WX ()
7th: LordMix ()
7th: Saj ()
9th: Oni Day ()
9th: Brawlman1000 (, )
9th: Neos ()
9th: Micaelis ()
13th: Xanos ()
13th: Wrath ( )
13th: DC ()
13th: Rango (,)

I'll look into others later

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I can't even with the results of this game on all levels anymore

Smooth Criminal

 

[juddy96]

t-t-top 16s

Super Smash on the Hill

Spoiler

1st: Dabuz ()
2nd: Mr. R ()
3rd: Pugwest ()
4th: Marss ()
5th: Craftis ()
5th: False ()
7th: LingLing ()
7th: Raffi-X ()
9th: Koolaid ()
9th: XL-XCVII ()
9th: Pelca ()
9th: Element_Demon ()
13th: MattyG ()
13th: Suarsuar ()
13th: Xorn ()
13th: IceArrow ()

Fusion 3

Spoiler

1st: Scatt ()
2nd: Ryo ()
3rd: Mew2King ()
4th: Fatality ()
5th: Gadiel ()
5th: 6WX ()
7th: LordMix ()
7th: Saj ()
9th: Oni Day ()
9th: Brawlmaster1000 ()
9th: Neos ()
9th: Micaelis ()
13th: Xanos ()
13th: Wrath ()
13th: DC ()
13th: Rango ()

I'll look into others later

False also went a bunch of Marth, I thought Wrath played Sonic, and its Brawlman1000 not Brawlmaster1000

 

[Das Koopa]

i swear I've made the same mistake with that player's name before lol

 

[Djent]

Das Koopa is Pugwest supposed to be in 3rd? I didn't catch the tourney but the bracket says he lost to Marss.

 

[Megamang]

I think a megaman that knows how to abuse both pellets, all his projectiles, and fully utilize his shield whenever Cloud lands near him unless he reads a grab, wins the MU.

Discuss.

Also, we kind of got a glimpse of it from that Bayonetta, but a Bayo versed in Witch Time abuse can really neuter Megaman. It was said on stream but Mega likes a bracket without Shiek, Mewtwo? Bayonetta... Idk who really stomps him anymore now that Shiek is not able to outrange everything with needles trivially.

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa is Pugwest supposed to be in 3rd? I didn't catch the tourney but the bracket says he lost to Marss.

corrected my mistakes

I'll add Collision XIII since most of everybody in the top 8 is actually noteworthy

 

[ARISTOS]

These top spreads looking good, hope it stays that way come the super majors.

Pugwest is on fire

 

[Megamang]

Marth is pretty scary now TBH. He likes the powerlevel of the tippy top being lowered, and is one of the only characters that can consistently edgeguard Bayonetta. Post patch, his brackets probably on average are better, since from what I understand Cloud isn't a huge pain.

If I'm getting stuff'd by Marth too much in neutral, I like to bring out the pellets. This is a MU I feel Mega... either wins outright, or its a 50:50 he gets to dictate the engagements in, which feels advantageous.


I think as people approach the skill level of the top players, we might see more character diversity on an individual basis. Abadango proved that people not knowing a MU not only generally, but at a level equal to their competition, is essential to pull out a win.

Interestingly enough, Mewtwo really hates DK, which powers up his bracket slightly. Though I think M2's may be reacting based on feelings when they die to a grab at 60%, since DK doesn't generally like to have to approach... but he does in a lot of MUs and doesn't get kills that early, so maybe not.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Marth is pretty scary now TBH. He likes the powerlevel of the tippy top being lowered, and is one of the only characters that can consistently edgeguard Bayonetta. Post patch, his brackets probably on average are better, since from what I understand Cloud isn't a huge pain.

If I'm getting stuff'd by Marth too much in neutral, I like to bring out the pellets. This is a MU I feel Mega... either wins outright, or its a 50:50 he gets to dictate the engagements in, which feels advantageous.


I think as people approach the skill level of the top players, we might see more character diversity on an individual basis. Abadango proved that people not knowing a MU not only generally, but at a level equal to their competition, is essential to pull out a win.

Interestingly enough, Mewtwo really hates DK, which powers up his bracket slightly. Though I think M2's may be reacting based on feelings when they die to a grab at 60%, since DK doesn't generally like to have to approach... but he does in a lot of MUs and doesn't get kills that early, so maybe not.

M2 in general doesn't like heavies. A lot of them in general do better than you'd expect based solely on tier position. Zard-M2 feels even to me, and Zard would win if he could ever land in this MU. There's just so many ways for M2 to die really early here, and Zard's ground speed + fast, disjointed Usmash allow him to cover M2's landing options fairly well, so losing neutral is really bad news.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

The more tournaments I watch, the more apparent it becomes that smash 4 is a game that heavily rewards strong fundamentals. Right now we have a character whose jank level has completely polarized the community, but the grand finals at fusion were a competition between a largely overlooked low tier and a solid but generally outclassed mid tier. I call that good game design.

 

[Yikarur]

Yikarur
Nice going!
Was it default Brawler you were using with the Yoshter?

Edit: Will check it out when I get home.

I use 1122 or 2122 Brawler depending on the match-up. 2122 is clearly the better choice overall at this point but you basically have to "learn" ultimate uppercut first, because that move has weird properties. I used 1122 against Toon Link because it won me the set against the very same Toon Link before, but this time he just played better than me. (ok I sdt in one game but psht)

So, tournies I'll look into documenting:

-TGL Monthly 4
-SAC 25
-Frese Smash(?)

Any others, + any ones upcoming this Sunday?

Yes. It was FreseSmash. The challonge is http://challonge.com/fresesmash
I list only Top8 because I don't think Top16 is that relevant for a regional level event. If you still want the Top16 I could collect the character data for it.

Great work
What are your thoughts on the Yoshi/Link MU? IMO it's slightly in yoshi's favor. Link and Yoshi both try to force their preferred spacing with Link being more indirect. Yoshi wins at CQC but Link has a decent spacing game vs him. In the end Yoshi has a slightly easier time doing what's important like KOing.

Yoshi Link seems easy so far. A solid +1 (it could even be +2 tbh but if I have to choose always go with the pessimistic approach :D). I personally use Brawler in this MU most of the time, because Brawler most likely has a +2 MU because Brawler is the master of low% combos and frame traps and Helicopterkick combos work insanely well on Link.

Yoshi has the advantage with mobility and combo game. Link has a lot of problems getting back to neutral so his focus should be to keep the neutral game up as much as possible. Yoshi can escape the disadvantage for free and does a lot of damage when he gets in but Yoshi struggles sometimes against good zoning and projectile spam because his powershield radius is smaller than other chars and his dash is one of the worst framewise.

 

[ARGHETH]

The more tournaments I watch, the more apparent it becomes that smash 4 is a game that heavily rewards strong fundamentals. Right now we have a character whose jank level has completely polarized the community, but the grand finals at fusion were a competition between a largely overlooked low tier and a solid but generally outclassed mid tier. I call that good game design.

Uhh
Megaman's generally acknowledged to be mid tier...

 

[Das Koopa]

Yes. It was FreseSmash. The challonge is http://challonge.com/fresesmash
I list only Top8 because I don't think Top16 is that relevant for a regional level event. If you still want the Top16 I could collect the character data for it.

It'd be useful to have. I'm using FreseSmash, Collision XIII, Super Smash on the Hill, and Fusion 3. Everything has either has way too low an entrant could/too few noteworthy players/both.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord What's the vs. MU? AzureJose just beat DJ Jack at the TGL monthly: http://challonge.com/tglmonthly4smash4singles

Then Azure is simply far superior or DJ screwed up very badly.

I would really need to see a vid, but knowing how DJ plays I sort of already know how it went down. He tends to overextend and again...doesnt really play the ground the way he could.

 

[Yikarur]

It'd be useful to have. I'm using FreseSmash, Collision XIII, Super Smash on the Hill, and Fusion 3. Everything has either has way too low an entrant could/too few noteworthy players/both.

Okay

Spoiler: FreseSmash Top16

96 players, Final Bracket (48 players) www.challonge.com/fresesmash
1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz
9. Majaal
9. Tay
9. Tolgini
9. Tsuba
13. Licks
13. Semiron
13. Suishomaru
13. Zephyr

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

t-t-top 16s

Super Smash on the Hill

Spoiler

1st: Dabuz ()
2nd: Mr. R ()
3rd: Marss ()
4th: Pugwest ()
5th: Craftis ()
5th: False (, )
7th: LingLing ()
7th: Raffi-X ()
9th: Koolaid ()
9th: XL-XCVII ()
9th: Pelca ()
9th: Element_Demon ()
13th: MattyG ()
13th: Suarsuar ()
13th: Xorn ()
13th: IceArrow ()

Fusion 3

Spoiler

1st: Scatt ()
2nd: Ryo ()
3rd: Mew2King ()
4th: Fatality ()
5th: Gadiel ()
5th: 6WX ()
7th: LordMix ()
7th: Saj ()
9th: Oni Day ()
9th: Brawlman1000 ()
9th: Neos ()
9th: Micaelis ()
13th: Xanos ()
13th: Wrath (, )
13th: DC ()
13th: Rango ()

I'll look into others later

Xanos went all Ness for the most part, Neos went all Rosa in singles, Wrath went all Sonic in singles(he barely plays Bayo) Rango went both Ike & Cloud. Brawlman1000 also used Cloud with Sonic.

#Corrections

 

[Deleted member]

Okay

Spoiler: FreseSmash Top16

96 players, Final Bracket (48 players) www.challonge.com/fresesmash
1. Purple~H
2. Yoh
3. Biggad
4. Kunai Kazekun
5. Yikarur
5. Eddy
7. BloodyDreamer
7. Lotuz
9. Majaal
9. Tay
9. Tolgini
9. Tsuba
13. Licks
13. Semiron
13. Suishomaru
13. Zephyr

Ooh, a Shulk in top 16? That's great!

 

[TurboLink]

Great work
What are your thoughts on the Yoshi/Link MU? IMO it's slightly in yoshi's favor. Link and Yoshi both try to force their preferred spacing with Link being more indirect. Yoshi wins at CQC but Link has a decent spacing game vs him. In the end Yoshi has a slightly easier time doing what's important like KOing.

How in the world does Yoshi have an easier time KOing when Link actually has kill confirms? Does Yoshi even have kill confirms?

 

[Das Koopa]

Ooh, a Shulk in top 16? That's great!

f e e l i n g i t

s h u l k t i m e

I like that he's in a top 16 in some capacity, but as with Zard, I'm hoping for more buffs in the future that give people a real incentive to play the character. Shulk in particular feels... outclassed? If he kept his damn sword in his hand all the time he might actually be decent or at least worth putting more lab time into.

 

[Rizen]

How in the world does Yoshi have an easier time KOing when Link actually has kill confirms? Does Yoshi even have kill confirms?

Better frame data and mobility + enough power to kill. I'm not sure what confirms Yoshi has, someone else will have to answer that.
Link's kill confirms are nice but he still needs a read and has to commit or use an elaborate setup. Grab being frame 12 is more of a punisher and Dthrow>Uair is a 50/50 with DI. Bombs are always great but Yoshi's egg pressure can limit their use and Yoshi likes the air. Link does get really nice reward off reads but Yoshi has much less commitment to most of his moveset. Link also has trouble if the opponent is in the lead even with confirms.
Link's kill game falls short relative to that of high tiers'.

 

[soniczx123]

Sheik still craps on Greninja in neutral, as we saw. It's the same steamroller, just not quite as big and heavy as before. In fairness I think Elexiao could have made more of shurikens (they are very good in that MU now) but they still have to be used carefully.

Sheik shouldn't actually be getting hit by weak Nair at all, Griffith just made a colossal error. It looked to me like a slightly mistimed dash to shield but he had no reason to be challenging Elexiao's landing like that anyway, especially when Elaxiao was clearly fishing for weak Nair.

I only saw games 4 and 5, but every stock Griffith lost until that moment was taken by Uthrow. Meanwhile Greninja still has to worry about needles to BF, the Ftilt 50/50 and BF edgeguards (bearing in mind Greninja can't really edgeguard Sheik). The kill power differential in the Greninja/Sheik MU isn't that big in practice, despite being huge on paper. Greninja's KCs are really hard to land on her, and the occasional ability to clutch a kill at 60% doesn't tip the MU.

The MU is significantly better but it's still a fair way away from even IMO.

Though for what it's worth, Greninja's high level record against Sheik in 1.1.5 isn't bad. iStudying lost to K9 2-1 but was able to take a game, and Elexiao beat Griffith 3-2 for the first time. I do think Sonic is Greninja's worst MU now, not Sheik.

What makes the MU so bad? Alias says so as well.