Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member 269706]

From what I've been researching about Bidou, it seems like it really benefits more aggressive play, but tends to be a bit worse when playing defensively in certain aspects. I've read that retreating fair's are really difficult (if not impossible to preform) which could be pretty detrimental to anyone who relies on that option (Ike and Marth are two characters that come to mind). However, it also makes RARing, ledge coverage, perfect pivots, etc. a lot easier, and I can see many applications where these would help offensive play. I'm sure they can also be used defensively, but it seems like the aggro players will benefit more from it. I feel as though it's going to be a while before we see someone get great results using Bidou, but I do look forward to the day that happens. I also want to see more from the Smash/tilt stick set-up for Bidou. It would be interesting to see the best of both worlds.

 

[Amadeus9]

Lucario's up throw doesn't really do anything so that doesn't change anything.

I mean, what? You realize it is a combo throw that puts you above lucario right? That's kind of what I was trying to point you towards.

 

[UberMadman]

Out of curiosity, which one is this? I know jack about Bowser Jr.

Sorry for the late reply. If Bowser Jr. hits you with his max speed Side-B, Koopa Clown Kart, at around 90-110%, (depending on your weight, fallspeed, gravity, blahblahblah,) he can jump cancel it into an immediate Up-B and kill you with the hammer swing on the way up. There is no character in the entire cast this does not work on. That isn't to say that this kill confirm alone makes Bowser Jr. great or anything, because it doesn't; if you know the matchup, then it's much harder to actually hit your opponent with this. Not impossible though, I've done it against Nairo on one of his streams before, and he has a decent Bowser Jr. himself, plus he's played against Tweek a lot in the past.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I mean, what? You realize it is a combo throw that puts you above lucario right? That's kind of what I was trying to point you towards.

Yea but it doesn't combo into anything. Though with correct timing Lucario could get you with an up air

Edit:Eh, now I think of it, I guess it isn't much of amproblem for Lucario to hit Kirby with up air, since he has up tilt too. But still, I think it's in Kirby's favor

 

[Djent]

Discussion begins
http://youtu.be/C48RngtqwwI

What more is there to say?

"OMG there's so much tech that no one uses that could change the way some characters play!"
*someone finds an easier way of doing said tech*
"Meh, seems like more trouble than it's worth."

 

[KakuCP9]

Regarding the Kirby/Lucario discussion, I thought Kirby mains discovered the benefits of Aura sphere charge and were feeling themselves over having kill confirms on Luc though it turns out it was nothing more than uninformed theory.
Gonna drop my 2 cents on the subject. Through ASC, Kirby in theory can confirm to Bair for kills or reverse up b for racking damage. Also he gains a way get around shield using b reverse/ wavebounce ASC, but there's the elephant in the room on getting the ability since it requires getting off an inhale. Also keep in mind Lucario rarely (if ever) needs to approach Kirby since he can use his great foxtrot to stay mid-range where Kirby struggles an force reactions with AS/Nair. Also, ASC->Usmash wastes Kirby when Lucario is as low as mid percents.
Not entirely sure who wins in the end, but it's definitely a interesting MU that will probably never be played at a relevant setting.

EDIT: Also keep in mind Kirby's b-reverse game with ASC won't as strong due to his weaker air speed.

 

[Amadeus9]

Yea but it doesn't combo into anything. Though with correct timing Lucario could get you with an up air

Edit:Eh, now I think of it, I guess it isn't much of amproblem for Lucario to hit Kirby with up air, since he has up tilt too. But still, I think it's in Kirby's favor

Show me where lucario's uthrow isnt a combo throw.

 

[ARGHETH]

All I needed to hear. lol no.

Edit:Just realized, I don't think I ever said why Kirby won't always get hit by up air, did I? If I didn't, it's because Kirby won't usually be right above Lucario that often unless Lucario is off-stage recovering, where he is vulnerable. It's still a good option whenever Kirby is above Lucario though.

So...you're not going to jump, ever, when he's on the ground?

Yea but it doesn't combo into anything. Though with correct timing Lucario could get you with an up air

Edit:Eh, now I think of it, I guess it isn't much of amproblem for Lucario to hit Kirby with up air, since he has up tilt too. But still, I think it's in Kirby's favor

What. Uthrow combos into Uair, and even if it didn't it still sends you in the air above Lucario so he can try and hit you with Uair.
Also, you've been ignoring the fact that ASC-->Usmash exists.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Show me where lucario's uthrow isnt a combo throw.

Yea I heard of up throw up air but it isn't a confirm. There isn't anything else from what i've heard, he has like down throw to forward air and that's like it.

So...you're not going to jump, ever, when he's on the ground?

What. Uthrow combos into Uair, and even if it didn't it still sends you in the air above Lucario so he can try and hit you with Uair.
Also, you've been ignoring the fact that ASC-->Usmash exists.

Jumping won't automatictially get you right over Lucario.

And did you not look at my previous post? I said "Actually, now that I think of it, I guess it might not be that hard for Lucario to land up air on Kirby" or something like that

 

[Amadeus9]

Yea I heard of up throw up air but it isn't a confirm. There isn't anything else from what i've heard, he has like down throw to forward air and that's like it.


Jumping won't automatictially get you right over Lucario.

And did you not look at my previous post? I said "Actually, now that I think of it, I guess it might not be that hard for Lucario to land up air on Kirby" or something like that

Almost nothing you have said has been correct. Like, basic character knowledge stuff, completely wrong. Can you please just take a step back and maybe re-evaluate your position?

 

[Vermanubis]

Ray_Kalm and Opanas results have both taken an upswing recently. The Ganon tourney results thread hasn't been updated in a while, so I'll have to go look for their exact placements later. Vermanubis hasn't been able to go to a tourney in a while, but prepatch his results were very good. GanonTheBeast needs no introduction. As for adom4:

https://smash.gg/tournament/beast-6/brackets/10660/10838/38057

As for Beast 6, it's worth noting that adom4 also beat Loota, and likely would have placed higher if he hadn't gone up against Izaw (who finished 9th) twice in a row. In some ways Ganon has no shortage of results.

That being said, most of the best Ganon's can't travel very far or very often, so Ganon's appereances at national level "viability proving" tournaments has been pretty scant.

For whatever relevance it is, my last tournament was last month at which I got 2nd, most of the PR in attendance.

 

[TheGlove]

Yea I heard of up throw up air but it isn't a confirm. There isn't anything else from what i've heard, he has like down throw to forward air and that's like it.


Jumping won't automatictially get you right over Lucario.

And did you not look at my previous post? I said "Actually, now that I think of it, I guess it might not be that hard for Lucario to land up air on Kirby" or something like that

At specific character dependent Rage Aura and enemy percent combinations up throw to up air is a kill confirm and can kill early. Its not super reliable due to staling and the specific percent needed but it is a thing.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Almost nothing you have said has been correct. Like, basic character knowledge stuff, completely wrong. Can you please just take a step back and maybe re-evaluate your position?

What do you mean by that?

 

[Peppermint1201]

What do you mean by that?

It's self-explanatory, isn't it?

 

[Wintermelon43]

It's self-explanatory, isn't it?

I actually really am kinda confused.

 

[Y2Kay]

I actually really am kinda confused.

You where wrong about Lucario's throw combos

 

[Nysyr]

Almost nothing you have said has been correct. Like, basic character knowledge stuff, completely wrong. Can you please just take a step back and maybe re-evaluate your position?

There are many factors are at play before Up-Throw -> UAir connects for Lucario as a kill combo. Its a goddamn mathematical nightmare.

- Opponents weight
- Your % (Aura makes this mater a helluva lot more than other characters)
- Their %
- Staleness (literally his best throw to use in all situation, so yeah it stales).

It's hardly a "confirm"

But yeah Up-Throw -> FAir combos at low %s, but doesn't really amount to much, given that FAir's damage is pretty poor.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lucario's throws are alright. Down throw and Up throw can lead into nice strings if you read DI and air dodges. Down throw is easier to DI, so Up throw is the better choice for combos usually.

And Rage + Aura also makes Back throw a kill throw, but you'll hardly need to use it anyway.

 

[Amadeus9]

There are many factors are at play before Up-Throw -> UAir connects for Lucario as a kill combo. Its a goddamn mathematical nightmare.

- Opponents weight
- Your % (Aura makes this mater a helluva lot more than other characters)
- Their %
- Staleness (literally his best throw to use in all situation, so yeah it stales).

It's hardly a "confirm"

But yeah Up-Throw -> FAir combos at low %s, but doesn't really amount to much, given that FAir's damage is pretty poor.

How exactly does Kirby, a light floaty with poor airspeed, not feel threatened by uair? I wasnt arguing that it's always a kill combo. And even when it's not, airdodging will get you killed. So will jumping or attacking. It 50/50s. And even when it doesn't, you're in an extremely dangerous position.

Wintermelon is completely ignoring the strengths of fighters he doesn't play/know much about, and vastly overrating how good his own main is (once again)

 

[Nysyr]

Lucario's throws are alright. Down throw and Up throw can lead into nice strings if you read DI and air dodges. Down throw is easier to DI, so Up throw is the better choice for combos usually.

And Rage + Aura also makes Back throw a kill throw, but you'll hardly need to use it anyway.

Backthrow to -> AS is a combo of sorts at %s I can't really remember. Does kill at the ledge and is his best "kill" throw (was some stage spike shenans on Battlefield if I recall correctly).

Dthrow tends to only work if they DI in, generally. The problem with Dthrow is that it's weight based, so the heavier characters can get out in time since it takes longer, and the floaties get knocked back too far to follow up. The kicker is if they are DIing in to get away from UAir fair strings, you can get some meatier combos due to the positioning.

I haven't labbed it out too seriously, so my observation may be a bit off.

Edit:

How exactly does Kirby, a light floaty with poor airspeed, not feel threatened by uair?

Never really said that. I sort of ignored anything Winter said.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Sorry (not) to cut away from this fascinating slap-fight, but @Trifroze I believe you mentioned the EventHubs tier list as a way to gauge character strength at low/mid level?

I wanted to add that the r/smashbros tier list is worth looking at for mid/low level impressions, though I'd say the voters are slightly more switched-on overall. Whilst I would hate to restart the old tradition of posting that list in this thread every month, the most recent list was particularly interesting.

View attachment 103909

This was pre-Pound, although I'm sure the only character who's position will be notably affected by Pound is Mewtwo (Rosa should definitely come down a few spots but I find it unlikely that the wider community will recognize this).

Things to note:

• The top 5 is reasonable. I would put Diddy there over Rosa though.
• Rosalina is still considered very powerful despite results and MUs that aren't as good as Bayo's, pre-patch Sheik's, or an S-tier character in general.
  
• They agree that Sheik has been comfortably dethroned from #1 but is still top 5.
• Ryu is still being overrated, results are seemingly being ignored for theory. I can see him being insane at mid-level.
• Toon Link's results, however, seemingly aren't being ignored and he finds himself at the top of B-tier.
• Pikachu and Falcon are still pretty high, but both are trending down if you look at previous results.
• Greninja is in the top 20 for the first time since his original nerf.
• DK is being rated pretty low. Though to be fair, I can understand such a low placement when the character is so volatile.

Ease of viewing:

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:


Another thing to note about the r/smashbros tier list is that tier levels have descriptions. I feel like actually having tier descriptions on any list (such as the 4BR one) would help with the constant calls of X character is/isn't bottom Y, but Z must/musn't be bottom Y. The specific numbers don't matter, only whether they fit the description does.

The descriptions are currently as follows:

S = Best For Tournament Play. Can always reach top spots in tournaments, any flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
A = Solo Tournament Viable. They may have notable flaws or a lack of extreme strengths, but a capable player can always work around these.
B = These characters can reach top spots in tournaments, but have flaws and/or bad matchups that prevent them from consistently performing well. Even a capable player might have to switch to a secondary due to these reasons.
C= Niche Use. These characters have potential against some of the higher tiers, but their use is very situational and/or limited. They can also work as secondary characters to compliment the weak matchups.
D = Not Tournament Viable. They have far too many weaknesses to perform well in tournaments. They don’t even have occasional usage as pocket characters.

I saw Captain Falcon as the poster boy for for A. Obviously notable flaws, but he still has generally good results (especially Tearbear's recent runs) and his strengths speak for themselves.

Donkey Kong is what I thought of for the B description. A good character, but held back by matchups with Zero Suit Samus/Sonic/etc. DKWill deciding to use Cloud in the future against Sonic while still pulling incredibly good results makes DK fit this to a T.

Dr. Mario is the example of C tier (though he escaped it on this list). As other posters said before, he has his throw kill confirm on certain characters that makes him a possible attractive pick, but you don't usually see him taking top spots - especially not alone.

D tier is actually hard to place almost anyone into, since just about every character has some notable result (even pre 1.1.5 Zelda). Though your definition of 'perform well' could affect this.

On a related note, any suggestions for changes in the tier list descriptions would be welcome.

 

[Dre89]

Like seriously, come on. Stop discrediting players and their characters, especially when they are doing good. I feel pretty confident that there are no 70-30 or 100-0 MU's in this game. Worst I could say would 65-35. Most characters have a good shot against each other. This game isn't perfect, but it's pretty close for the most part to balanced.

Bayo probably 8 2s all the fatties.

Kick is an unpunishable gapcloser that can easily take a stock at 0%. I know someone who had only played Bayo for half an hour and was 0 deathing my DK consistently.

 

[nannerham]

Theorticitally you would think it is, But Lucario's startup on smashes means that whiffing it means that Kirby can get a throw on him if you shielded it, causing a good combo on him (Well duh) but mainly, at high percents Kirby can get an up throw. It's pretty easy to grab a Lucario using his smashes, so kill throws are very effective aganist Lucario in general, and Kirby is no exception. Kirby has up throw which helps with aura. Plus Kirby has the copy ability, which means he has his own aura for that move and it's even harder for Lucario to smash him since Kirby has the same Aura sphere move that makes it hard to approach Lucario at times. Plus, Kirby can easily ginp Lucario.

No lucario in their right mind is gonna throw out smash attacks in the neutral NO CHARACTER SHOULD BE DOING THAT, you obviously don't know any of this character's strengths. Lucario doesn't need much aura at all to net stocks on kirby bair, uair, and force palm all kill him easily and he has setups into each one of these moves and it's especially easy with kirby's weight and gravity. While its true he can gimp lucario without much trouble I can say the same exact thing about kirby, since his recovery is very picky on how it sweetspots with the ledge lucario can just sit the charge aura sphere and if you didn't sweetspot the ledge, oh no ASC up smash killed you. Lucario's uthrow is his best combo throw and he has true setups into his grab. If I grab you with low aura you take 25%, if I grab you with mid aura uthrow to uair can true combo you and kill you and in the worst case scenario it turns into a 50/50, if I grab you with high aura its the exact same situation except I can end your stock at 45%. Since kirby doesn't have a good approach I can play around mid range and just keep throwing aura spheres which makes copying him an absolute chore, that doesn't sound like a good MU at all. Please do more reasearch on a character before you think about saying anything on weather or not he beats that said character. Please.

 

[Browny]

I will destroy everyone who makes tier lists and separates the tiers at points which completely break up bell curves.

4 characters occupying a middle tier should be illegal.

 

[C0rvus]

I need help assessing how good Kirby is. I may have jumped on the bandwagon a bit too hard after watching KID Goggles almost beat Mr. R... perhaps this only means that Kirby has a nice matchup against Sheik but still gets bopped by high tiers like Cloud? It seems Goggles only used Kirby vs Mr. R as well. Mike Kirby did get third at Kawaii Kon... I had him around #20 but I think maybe 25-30 range is more appropriate. Thoughts?

There's a lot of competition for top 25, and it doesn't belong to a character whose biggest claim to fame is having a couple even matchups with some high tiers.

Esam is goes over his matchup list starting wit pikachu's losing matchups

Surprised this video isn't ten seconds long. "Yeah Mario beats Pikachu and that's about it see you guys next time for my six hour long video about why Pikachu beats every other character in the game!"

But srrsly, I would put Kirby around 37th-40th. He has great strengths, such as great throws, amazing combos, good aierals, great tilts, and good edgeguarding, but has a significant flaw in which his bad range and bad approach gives him a bad neutral, which extrmely hurts his viability.

Matchup spread wise, Kirby's is one of the most interesting ones. For top/top-high tiers, I'd say it goes like this:

-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

Ness is either -1 or 0, not sure. General consensus for both Kirby and Ness mains seem to be 0.

Many top players think Kirby does better though. American Foxes such as Larry Lurr and Xzax seem to think Kirby beats Fox.

Kirby goes even with and beats at least.

Kirby has randomly good matchups aganist certain top and high tiers, but then he gets destroyed by and does bad aganist (The Donkey Kong matchup isn't that bad in theory, probably -1 but in results it's one of the worst, like -3.I guess this makes it -2). But then has those even/advantage matchups aganist , and I've heard people say he goes even with too.

Kinda crazy matchup spread, but I think it's solid overall.

For results, Kirby's is pretty solid, about as good as his general theory. He has Mikekirby mostly, with 13th at glitch. 5th at a KTAR, the Hawaii tournaments, and of course, the kid goggles thing.


I think he's garbage and easily bottom 10. Terrible frame data, bad recovey, many bad attacks, extremely bad mobility, and one of the worst (Apart from his matchup aganist Villager) matchup spreads in the game.

I hate that people assume Link isn't bottom 10 because of his results, I mean results are important and all but theory means more and he has garbage theory.

Still blindly hating Link, I see. I dunno what your beef with the character is, but whatever. Honestly, I can't think of a reason to put him any higher lol. Maybe he is that bad, but I dunno.

And I don't see how Kirby beats Lucario, Pac Man, Villager, Wario or ROB. Kirby to me seems like a character with no neutral to speak of, who can hardly combo floaties and has like, no gimmicks to set him apart from any other character in the game aside from Copy Abilities. Putting him around 40th is probably fair. He does have some relevancy at least, but he seems to be another counterpick character along with Doc and Little Mac.

 

[sedrf]

Bayo vs / isn't that bad from what I've heard

 

[L9999]

No lucario in their right mind is gonna throw out smash attacks in the neutral NO CHARACTER SHOULD BE DOING THAT.....

Tell that to Mario. Yes, I know is for mindgaming more that actually attempting to hit, but it is effective, even if you know it is coming.

 

[LRodC]

Ease of viewing:

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:


Another thing to note about the r/smashbros tier list is that tier levels have descriptions. I feel like actually having tier descriptions on any list (such as the 4BR one) would help with the constant calls of X character is/isn't bottom Y, but Z must/musn't be bottom Y. The specific numbers don't matter, only whether they fit the description does.

The descriptions are currently as follows:

S = Best For Tournament Play. Can always reach top spots in tournaments, any flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
A = Solo Tournament Viable. They may have notable flaws or a lack of extreme strengths, but a capable player can always work around these.
B = These characters can reach top spots in tournaments, but have flaws and/or bad matchups that prevent them from consistently performing well. Even a capable player might have to switch to a secondary due to these reasons.
C= Niche Use. These characters have potential against some of the higher tiers, but their use is very situational and/or limited. They can also work as secondary characters to compliment the weak matchups.
D = Not Tournament Viable. They have far too many weaknesses to perform well in tournaments. They don’t even have occasional usage as pocket characters.

I saw Captain Falcon as the poster boy for for A. Obviously notable flaws, but he still has generally good results (especially Tearbear's recent runs) and his strengths speak for themselves.

Donkey Kong is what I thought of for the B description. A good character, but held back by matchups with Zero Suit Samus/Sonic/etc. DKWill deciding to use Cloud in the future against Sonic while still pulling incredibly good results makes DK fit this to a T.

Dr. Mario is the example of C tier (though he escaped it on this list). As other posters said before, he has his throw kill confirm on certain characters that makes him a possible attractive pick, but you don't usually see him taking top spots - especially not alone.

D tier is actually hard to place almost anyone into, since just about every character has some notable result (even pre 1.1.5 Zelda). Though your definition of 'perform well' could affect this.

On a related note, any suggestions for changes in the tier list descriptions would be welcome.

Can you tell me how exactly Mewtwo is in B+ despite winning a national tournament against some of the best players of characters in A or S? Also, what exactly have Pikachu, Corrin, or Ryu done to earn their placing?

 

[Jehtt]

That was a vote-based tier list created by the /r/smashbros community, so you're asking the wrong person. Additionally, that tier list was created prior to Pound, so Mewtwo had not shown his strength yet.

 

[Megamang]

We don't jet characters to the top of our lists until they are slightly more consistent. Of course, m2 has some consistent results in his other mains, but not on the same level as winning a national.


That said, I do believe M2 has the characteristics of a high tier, due to a combination of factors including his recent mobility buffs. I agree with the notion that a glass cannon should be fast. People learning to effectively kill m2 will be surprised how early their character's kill confirms work on such a floaty and light character, and how large the windows are thanks to his big body.

Seriously, his huge hitbox extends the ranges for checkpoint significantly, from what I can see. It barely love taps him at later kill %, but then he is gone immediately.

---

Zard - Bayo being somewhat evenish is something I had considered, but didn't want to say with authority because of Bayonetta's power level. Having a full screen punish is particularly useful against her, he has sword-like normals that can keep her out and do high damage, and his grab game both racks damage at early % and can kill in rage situations. If you manage to SDI enough to survive the BnB, living a while is really scary for Bayo. She still has her powerful tools in the MU though, and bat within helps her escape traps that Zard likes. Probably more fun than Cloud...

 

[LRodC]

That was a vote-based tier list created by the /r/smashbros community, so you're asking the wrong person. Additionally, that tier list was created prior to Pound, so Mewtwo had not shown his strength yet.

Ah, no wonder it's so bad. Smash Reddit is terrible.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

We don't jet characters to the top of our lists until they are slightly more consistent. Of course, m2 has some consistent results in his other mains, but not on the same level as winning a national.


That said, I do believe M2 has the characteristics of a high tier, due to a combination of factors including his recent mobility buffs. I agree with the notion that a glass cannon should be fast. People learning to effectively kill m2 will be surprised how early their character's kill confirms work on such a floaty and light character, and how large the windows are thanks to his big body.

Seriously, his huge hitbox extends the ranges for checkpoint significantly, from what I can see. It barely love taps him at later kill %, but then he is gone immediately.

---

Zard - Bayo being somewhat evenish is something I had considered, but didn't want to say with authority because of Bayonetta's power level. Having a full screen punish is particularly useful against her, he has sword-like normals that can keep her out and do high damage, and his grab game both racks damage at early % and can kill in rage situations. If you manage to SDI enough to survive the BnB, living a while is really scary for Bayo. She still has her powerful tools in the MU though, and bat within helps her escape traps that Zard likes. Probably more fun than Cloud...

Zard also has flame thrower, which is not affected by witch time and beats bayo's side b when she's approaching. Also I heard that Zard can Flare Blitz through Bayo's neutral B bullets . Not entirely sure if thats correct though

 

[Megamang]

Yea, she shouldn't commit to that move in neutral near zard, which is more than ganon can say in the MU.

But she can Witch Time that, and most of his moves that reach through her (ridiculous) hitboxes. A few well placed WT can win her the game too. But Flare Blitz with good timing will destroy that.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Charizard's flamethrower is one of the best edge guarding move in terms of risk:reward (super low risk, potentially big reward to follow up on)

His neutral b is great against character's recoveries like:

Basically good against character that come at ledge at any kind of angle, even better when they have no hitbox/don't use any teleport recoveries

It has to be used more by Zard mains. (If there are any out there lol)

Some video: http://oddshot.tv/shot/datteamlive-20160411214321487

Full set if you wanna watch it: https://www.twitch.tv/datteamlive/v/59970404?t=03h19m05s

Regarding zard vs bayo, up tilt and up smash are particularly useful vs her downward ABK. She can't afford to bullet climax camp him because Flare Blitz/low crouch. Up B helps escape strings but is pretty risky. And he can afford to grab her since he gets good reward off it. It's either even or slightly Zard IMO.

 

[Wintermelon43]

There's a lot of competition for top 25, and it doesn't belong to a character whose biggest claim to fame is having a couple even matchups with some high tiers.



Surprised this video isn't ten seconds long. "Yeah Mario beats Pikachu and that's about it see you guys next time for my six hour long video about why Pikachu beats every other character in the game!"


Still blindly hating Link, I see. I dunno what your beef with the character is, but whatever. Honestly, I can't think of a reason to put him any higher lol. Maybe he is that bad, but I dunno.

And I don't see how Kirby beats Lucario, Pac Man, Villager, Wario or ROB. Kirby to me seems like a character with no neutral to speak of, who can hardly combo floaties and has like, no gimmicks to set him apart from any other character in the game aside from Copy Abilities. Putting him around 40th is probably fair. He does have some relevancy at least, but he seems to be another counterpick character along with Doc and Little Mac.

I don't think you're understanding what I said. out of the characters you listed, I only suggested Lucario is in Kirby's favor; the rest were placed in even.

No lucario in their right mind is gonna throw out smash attacks in the neutral NO CHARACTER SHOULD BE DOING THAT, you obviously don't know any of this character's strengths. Lucario doesn't need much aura at all to net stocks on kirby bair, uair, and force palm all kill him easily and he has setups into each one of these moves and it's especially easy with kirby's weight and gravity. While its true he can gimp lucario without much trouble I can say the same exact thing about kirby, since his recovery is very picky on how it sweetspots with the ledge lucario can just sit the charge aura sphere and if you didn't sweetspot the ledge, oh no ASC up smash killed you. Lucario's uthrow is his best combo throw and he has true setups into his grab. If I grab you with low aura you take 25%, if I grab you with mid aura uthrow to uair can true combo you and kill you and in the worst case scenario it turns into a 50/50, if I grab you with high aura its the exact same situation except I can end your stock at 45%. Since kirby doesn't have a good approach I can play around mid range and just keep throwing aura spheres which makes copying him an absolute chore, that doesn't sound like a good MU at all. Please do more reasearch on a character before you think about saying anything on weather or not he beats that said character. Please.

Well duh, of course I don't know anything about him,

• I don't play this character
• I only have for glory and certain people for with friends on discords. Even that isn't that plentiful, I've never played aganist more than like one legit Lucario if any at all cause they barely exist.
• Lucario isn't common in tournaments

I have to go from somehwere though so yea

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't think you're understanding what I said. out of the characters you listed, I only suggested Lucario is in Kirby's favor; the rest were placed in even.

Well duh, of course I don't know anything about him,

• I don't play this character
• I only have for glory and certain people for with friends on discords. Even that isn't that plentiful, I've never played aganist more than like one legit Lucario if any at all cause they barely exist.
• Lucario isn't common in tournaments

I have to go from somehwere though so yea

Here's a tip: don't talk about characters you don't know anything about. If you get the theory wrong, then you really aren't helping the discussion.

 

[Amadeus9]

I don't think you're understanding what I said. out of the characters you listed, I only suggested Lucario is in Kirby's favor; the rest were placed in even.

Well duh, of course I don't know anything about him,

• I don't play this character
• I only have for glory and certain people for with friends on discords. Even that isn't that plentiful, I've never played aganist more than like one legit Lucario if any at all cause they barely exist.
• Lucario isn't common in tournaments

I have to go from somehwere though so yea

Or, you can go from nowhere because you don't have an accurate CHARACTER COMPETITIVE IMPRESSION™. Arguing out of ignorance, acknowledging said ignorance, then getting upset when people don't take your argument seriously because it is out of ignorance is just not a good plan.

Again, take a step back, maybe lab the character a bit, watch more high level play, form an opinion based on tangible experience/evidence, then re-evaluate your position. You will probably find that your stance is different than now.

I only weigh in on subjects I know about and sorry, I just can't let blatant lies stand about a character I have watched/played/labbed pretty extensively

 

[AnEventHorizon]

I will destroy everyone who makes tier lists and separates the tiers at points which completely break up bell curves.

4 characters occupying a middle tier should be illegal.

Its simply what happens when the tier list is based on number averages. Such as Pit and Dark Pit being apart even though there was only a ~ .06 number difference between them. b tier often has the most characters and changes because of this. Just a month or so before the roles were reversed with B being the largest while B+ and B- were comparatively small.

Simply take all of B tier as one tier and itd look more like a bell, but there's no requirement for it to when the list is based off of which characters fit the tier descriptions, not just a random lettered tier assignment

LRodC . I see you've got the usual hate for the smash subreddit, which I find unnecessary considering there's overlap between here and there. The tier lists (and thus ideas) created there in general have been pretty close to what most other people create - the list that came out around the time as the original 4BR list ended up having the exact same characters in the top 27.

While there are things I don't agree with on the list, that's true of anyone's tier list, from Zero(Shulk) to Vinne (DDD) to Esam (Pikachu) to 4BR (Samus) to r/smashbros (Mii Swordfighter with all moves available).

That aside, the list was made before Pound (Mewtwo), Pikachu has actually dropped severely from where he was before, and r/smashbros is only guilty of the same hype the 4BR gave to Ryu.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Charizard's flamethrower is one of the best edge guarding move in terms of risk:reward (super low risk, potentially big reward to follow up on)

His neutral b is great against character's recoveries like:

Basically good against character that come at ledge at any kind of angle, even better when they have no hitbox/don't use any teleport recoveries

It has to be used more by Zard mains. (If there are any out there lol)

Some video: http://oddshot.tv/shot/datteamlive-20160411214321487

Full set if you wanna watch it: https://www.twitch.tv/datteamlive/v/59970404?t=03h19m05s

Regarding zard vs bayo, up tilt and up smash are particularly useful vs her downward ABK. She can't afford to bullet climax camp him because Flare Blitz/low crouch. Up B helps escape strings but is pretty risky. And he can afford to grab her since he gets good reward off it. It's either even or slightly Zard IMO.

Nice vids. Seriously all the other Zards i've seen linked have always had me thinking these aren't even good charizard players.. they arent playing the character right. There's usually a failure to convert into damage from throws, flame thrower not being used enough, dash grab not being used enough (you need to use it even though its not safe, because its threatening as **** and it will force your opponent to play differently which will enable you to use other options which would otherwise fail), jab not being used enough, aerials being used too much. Typically Zards seem too eager to use their aerial kit, zards aerials really arent that safe generally speaking and being in the air as zard is not good either. One should instead rely on his solid ground game so that aerials can be used sporadically, that way they wont be expected and will not be punished as much.

This dude got it right. He was using Zards strongest points, his jabs, grabs, his d-tilt and his flamethrower to great effect. When you do that your opponent will start going for stuff in order to circumvent this, and thats when Zard can start using the entire contents of his bag of tricks. There will be attempted aerial approaches which zard can stuff with his fair, there wont be any anticipating zard going in with an aerial of his own, this makes it a lot easier to space aerials safely. Like Zards fair might get punished easily by a run up shield. But if the zard is using his groundgame there wont be a run up shield.

 

[Shaya]

I think I'll start with:
If you're going to post low-level observations, you should expect an infraction~

If you don't think your post is a low level observation, then you should at least be able to back it up with game play proof at some relevant level (i.e. any competent offline tournament play, doesn't have to be Nairo).

Friendly reminder to our lovely inhabitants.

I'm not always harsh on this, but the looming threat above can swoop in at any time, especially if it's the basis of an elongated argument.

Oh and here's a check list one should consider if you're wondering whether or not you have a low level observation

• I don't play character
• I only have for glory and certain people for with friends on discords. Even that isn't that plentiful, I've never played aganist more than like one legit if any at all cause they barely exist.
• isn't common in tournaments