Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

It's not like his overturned reward existed post-patch . . . Oh wait

You main mewtwo.

After the buffs you can no longer be this snarky.

Sorry bruh.

 

[Y2Kay]

You main mewtwo.

After the buffs you can no longer be this snarky.

Sorry bruh.

I'm a greninja main

 

[R3D3MON]

Y2Kay

So his overtuned reward got rid of his weaknesses? Also do you mean pre-patch?

Also, I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate right now and say that Mew2 should be nerfed. His rewards are also overtuned right now and they come straight from his neutral, which is his strong point. Seriously a death conversion from Footstools? And a fair that can kill, combo, and be used for spacing in neutral? And the mobility to easily set up said kill confirms? This character is looking bonkers right now. Also, out of all the DLC characters that are considered OP and dumb, Mew2 is the first one to win a U.S. major....LoL so much for Cloud and Bayo being dumb as hell.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can't really sympathize with mains of average characters complaining about their characters being average. Complaining about high tiers having overwhelming strengths without appropriate weaknesses to offset them is understandable, as is complaining about low tiers having major flaws without strengths which adequately compensate for them. Wanting buffs for your character is fine, but the mentality among some players that their character is horrible and unplayable and in need of massive buffs if they're not top 10 irks me.

 

[TurboLink]

So, what do we all think of Link anyways?

 

[apparently fuz]

Y2Kay

So his overtuned reward got rid of his weaknesses? Also do you mean pre-patch?

Also, I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate right now and say that Mew2 should be nerfed. His rewards are also overtuned right now and they come straight from his neutral, which is his strong point. Seriously a death conversion from Footstools? And a fair that can kill, combo, and be used for spacing in neutral? And the mobility to easily set up said kill confirms? This character is looking bonkers right now. Also, out of all the DLC characters that are considered OP and dumb, Mew2 is the first one to win a U.S. major....LoL so much for Cloud and Bayo being dumb as hell.

I hope you're joking, because that logic is seriously flawed.

"Your character is better than mine so they need nerfs."

Seriously, cut the pessimism and play the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

Y2Kay

So his overtuned reward got rid of his weaknesses? Also do you mean pre-patch?

Also, I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate right now and say that Mew2 should be nerfed. His rewards are also overtuned right now and they come straight from his neutral, which is his strong point. Seriously a death conversion from Footstools? And a fair that can kill, combo, and be used for spacing in neutral? And the mobility to easily set up said kill confirms? This character is looking bonkers right now. Also, out of all the DLC characters that are considered OP and dumb, Mew2 is the first one to win a U.S. major....LoL so much for Cloud and Bayo being dumb as hell.

Are you being serious right now? Trying to cry tears about your mid tier main being mid tier and then try to take shots at my main? That's so weak man.

Whatever, HeavyLobster said everything I wanted to anyway.

 

[R3D3MON]

Why not? People do this all the time for characters deemed "unfair" or "stupid" or "broken", etc. And like I said I'm playing Devil's advocate at the moment.

IMO Mew2 is looking really broken right now, especially since Abadango has never been able to win a US national before using Mew2 (even when he was playing a character considered top 5 in the game at one point). He has weaknesses but his strong points have been overtuned too much and he has received too many mobility buffs to make his overtuned options even more dominating.

Spain should be banning Mew2, not Bayo lol.

 

[Blobface]

Ray_Kalm and Opanas results have both taken an upswing recently. The Ganon tourney results thread hasn't been updated in a while, so I'll have to go look for their exact placements later. Vermanubis hasn't been able to go to a tourney in a while, but prepatch his results were very good. GanonTheBeast needs no introduction. As for adom4:

https://smash.gg/tournament/beast-6/brackets/10660/10838/38057

As for Beast 6, it's worth noting that adom4 also beat Loota, and likely would have placed higher if he hadn't gone up against Izaw (who finished 9th) twice in a row. In some ways Ganon has no shortage of results.

That being said, most of the best Ganon's can't travel very far or very often, so Ganon's appereances at national level "viability proving" tournaments has been pretty scant.

 

[BunbUn129]

I mean, Mewtwo mains had to put up with their character being low tier in Melee and for a while in Smash 4, so I'd just say man up and let them enjoy their time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why not? People do this all the time for characters deemed "unfair" or "stupid" or "broken", etc. And like I said I'm playing Devil's advocate at the moment.

IMO Mew2 is looking really broken right now, especially since Abadango has never been able to win a US national before using Mew2 (even when he was playing a character considered top 5 in the game at one point). He has weaknesses but his strong points have been overtuned too much and he has received too many mobility buffs to make his overtuned options even more dominating.

Spain should be banning Mew2, not Bayo lol.

Well Zero didn't show up to win it like he has for almost all the other ones. Aba also once got top 8 at a national with Pac-Man, so it's not as if he hasn't proven his skills. I also don't think MK really meshed with him all that well as a player, and Mewtwo just clicks with him more(also nobody knew the MU). Honestly it was a weird tourney after so many players were affected by character nerfs in 1.1.5. It's an important result but shouldn't be treated as quite the same accomplishment as winning a national with Zero in attendance.

 

[Y2Kay]

Why not? People do this all the time for characters deemed "unfair" or "stupid" or "broken", etc. And like I said I'm playing Devil's advocate at the moment.

IMO Mew2 is looking really broken right now, especially since Abadango has never been able to win a US national before using Mew2 (even when he was playing a character considered top 5 in the game at one point). He has weaknesses but his strong points have been overtuned too much and he has received too many mobility buffs to make his overtuned options even more dominating.

Spain should be banning Mew2, not Bayo lol.

I refuse to give such a dumb post the honor of one of my Mewtwo essays.

But I'll let you know this one of the stupidest things I've read in this thread for quite some time.

 

[Steeler]

I need help assessing how good Kirby is. I may have jumped on the bandwagon a bit too hard after watching KID Goggles almost beat Mr. R... perhaps this only means that Kirby has a nice matchup against Sheik but still gets bopped by high tiers like Cloud? It seems Goggles only used Kirby vs Mr. R as well. Mike Kirby did get third at Kawaii Kon... I had him around #20 but I think maybe 25-30 range is more appropriate. Thoughts?

 

[Vycoul]

My first reaction to hearing someone say Mewtwo should be nerfed is a good bit of frustration.
Then I sit back and realize... Someone is saying Mewtwo should be nerfed.

And then a tear of joy is brought to my eye. God bless Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

Y2Kay

So his overtuned reward got rid of his weaknesses? Also do you mean pre-patch?

Also, I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate right now and say that Mew2 should be nerfed. His rewards are also overtuned right now and they come straight from his neutral, which is his strong point. Seriously a death conversion from Footstools? And a fair that can kill, combo, and be used for spacing in neutral? And the mobility to easily set up said kill confirms? This character is looking bonkers right now. Also, out of all the DLC characters that are considered OP and dumb, Mew2 is the first one to win a U.S. major....LoL so much for Cloud and Bayo being dumb as hell.

Mewtwo does not in any world need nerfs. He's a character with clear cut weaknesses in order to balance his really ****ing good tools: large hurtbox, easy to combo/juggle, and has trouble landing safely, uncomfortable when pressured, and can die at 50/60% off one critical mistake. He's a goddamn glass cannon. Of course he's going to have moves you'll have to fear in neutral, and even then none of them are overtuned. You really gonna bring Mewtwo of all characters, one with a high learning curve and requires great amounts of smart play to succeed, into an argument involving prepatch Luigi?

 

[Smog Frog]

trouble landing safely? idk about that. airdash, b reverse shadow ball, teleport, and best airdodge aren't characteristics of characters with poor landing options.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I need help assessing how good Kirby is. I may have jumped on the bandwagon a bit too hard after watching KID Goggles almost beat Mr. R... perhaps this only means that Kirby has a nice matchup against Sheik but still gets bopped by high tiers like Cloud? It seems Goggles only used Kirby vs Mr. R as well. Mike Kirby did get third at Kawaii Kon... I had him around #20 but I think maybe 25-30 range is more appropriate. Thoughts?

Kirby is great in close quarters but weak at all other spacings. He's got a few high tier MUs where he can compete, but the balance of this game is such that even lower tiered characters have those at times. Kirby's a below average character, not an awful one, but he generally strikes me as mediocre compared to the rest of the cast. Around 40th seems reasonable to me.

 

[Kofu]

Y2Kay
Then why did they even nerf him in the first place. They probably should have thought about actual compensation for the character.

Luigi's an odd case IMO. Most of the major nerfs have been to top characters who were doing scary things at all levels of play. But, IIRC, Luigi wasn't quite like that. He definitely got more results than he does now but when you got to the top his results tapered noticeably, showing that his gameplan wasn't some suffocating blight and that his weaknesses were exploitable. ESAM using Samus to take out a top Luigi in tournament (I don't remember which one) was before Luigi's nerfs and before Samus's buffs. Still, Luigi has always kind of struggled with most of this game's top tiers with the exception of Diddy (and I heard he might do okay against Bayonetta now? Not sure).

He also didn't receive any compensation buffs like most other major nerf recipients have gotten, at least after the fact. You could argue that he got his quality-of-life buffs before, during the first patch. Off the top of my head he got a noticeable range increase on FAir and a knockback buff for FSmash (there might be others) along with the removal of vectoring. I think he also got a damage/knockback increase to DSmash somewhere in all these patches. Such buffs are in line with what characters are known to get; nothing game changing but things that definitely help.

Luigi's issue was that he was dominating at mid-level play. Fireballs and grabs were such a potent combination that they were hard to beat for a lot of characters and either required laming him out (something he's still vulnerable to) or specific counterplay like crouching to reduce hitstun on Fireballs. And, even then, his grab reward was so insane that it could take only a handful of screwups to lose your stock. Personally I feel like increasing the endlag on Fireballs would have been enough to make Luigi manageable but what's done is done (and I'm not going to complain about his other nerfs and tweaks).

While I'm not against Luigi getting a couple of buffs, I'm not sure how you can buff him in a meaningful way without bringing back his pre-patch incarnation. His frame data is already bonkers, his damage per hit is good, and his moves, or at least aerials, chain together really well. His grab game is still quite good; he's able to rack up nice damage at low percents with DThrow and his other throws are good for positioning and all kill reasonably with rage/positioning. He's supposed to struggle with approaching; I see his movement problems and poor range as deliberate weaknesses to keep him in check. Many of his moves are among the best of their type. His aerials are all great, his jab is good, and even his smashes are decent (as Thinkaman said, the problem with the sentence "Luigi running up and USmashing" isn't "USmashing" but "Luigi running"). I can only see them altering his bad moves (dash attack, and I'm not really sure what the DTilt change was supposed to accomplish) if they do buff him more.

Or they could let him taunt in midair.

 

[Deleted member]

trouble landing safely? idk about that. airdash, b reverse shadow ball, teleport, and best airdodge aren't characteristics of characters with poor landing options.

Good point. His airdodge and b-reverse SB are pretty dope. Wouldn't say Teleport is that good as a landing option though due to its landing lag, but ledge-cancelled Teleport is hnnnng.

 

[R3D3MON]

Well Zero didn't show up to win it like he has for almost all the other ones. Aba also once got top 8 at a national with Pac-Man, so it's not as if he hasn't proven his skills. I also don't think MK really meshed with him all that well as a player, and Mewtwo just clicks with him more(also nobody knew the MU). Honestly it was a weird tourney after so many players were affected by character nerfs in 1.1.5. It's an important result but shouldn't be treated as quite the same accomplishment as winning a national with Zero in attendance.

These are indeed all true and good points, but the MU inexperience can be said for Pac-Man as well. And the MU inexperience also somewhat applies to MK, since MK's death combo and its effectiveness was not really known very well in the U.S. nationals until the debut of Abadango's MK in TBH5. Coincidentally this was also when the complaints about MK started to appear rather frequently across the whole community. Also, even though Zero was not at POUND VI, both Nairo and Dabuz were therem and they both did very well with their respective characters during Shots Fired II (which was after the big nerfs IIRC).

I think Mew2 as a character shows the importance of the neutral game in Smash 4. Even if a character has a ridiculous punish/combo game, a character that can dominate neutral really shines in the end since they can pressure people to death. And on top of that, Mew2 also has kill confirms from his oppressive neutral, similar to Diddy Kong (and Diddy Kong is also considered a top tier character right now, even after the nerfs. Side note: I think Diddy Kong is a prime example of an extremely ridiculous character. He is still considered a top character even after the slew of nerfs that he received. This is similar to Fox, who got nerfed heavily from the transition from melee to brawl to Smash 4, but is still considered high tier). He needs some of his features to be toned down, and I think this will balance out the character nicely for the game.

Also I would like to point out how overrated Mew2's disadvantage state is (especially landing). 3 of his specials can be b-reversed, he has the best airdodge, his up special is a teleport with great distance, and he also happens to have the 3rd best airdodge. Luigi wishes he had even half of those traits.

Also skill factor really doesn't matter for the balance of the game, according to the people in this thread and elsewhere. After all, the amount of complaints for pre-patch sheik was massive in this thread regardless of the fact that she was and is still considered one of the most demanding characters in the game.


Kofu
Fireball was nerfed in endlag specifically. Also its damage output was lowered. So basically a move that was unsafe on hit and only really had utility at mid/close range when opponents didn't perfect shield was nerfed further by the patch team.

EDIT: Kofu
ESAM beat Larry Lurr's Luigi using Samus at CEO 2015. To anyone discrediting Larry's Luigi, Larry Lurr also happened to beat Con Con's Luigi several times before the nerfs IIRC. This is similar to Larry's performance with Mario and DK.

 

[sedrf]

Esam is goes over his matchup list starting wit pikachu's losing matchups

 

[Luig]

The Luigi nerfs were definitely warranted. No doubt about that. I think he does deserve some compensation buffs, but that's probably just my bias. The thing is, his weaknesses are perfect for most of the top tiers to exploit. Also, I think that even pre patch he may have been slightly overrated. I don't know where I'm going with this, just stating what I'm thinking.

Also Mewtwo shouldn't be nerfed lmao

 

[Rizen]

But yea the mobility difference is one of the few things, because does Link not have essentially the same kill confirms Tink does off bombs, but because he is a lot slower it's much harder to do? Just curious

Link does have bomb confirms but the windows are tighter or he has to bombslide to get close enough.
Here are two examples of bomb slide confirms in 20 seconds (13:08)
https://youtu.be/8LUseBFSTBk?t=786

 

[S_B]

Why not? People do this all the time for characters deemed "unfair" or "stupid" or "broken", etc. And like I said I'm playing Devil's advocate at the moment.

IMO Mew2 is looking really broken right now, especially since Abadango has never been able to win a US national before using Mew2 (even when he was playing a character considered top 5 in the game at one point). He has weaknesses but his strong points have been overtuned too much and he has received too many mobility buffs to make his overtuned options even more dominating.

Spain should be banning Mew2, not Bayo lol.

M2 is light as ****, though.

He's a glass cannon, and as such his neutral game needs to be pretty damn amazing to justify him being extremely light like he is.

Aba in an insanely good player and he took a character that most don't have solid matchup experience against and won a major with him. It's not all that surprising, really.

 

[Luig]

TL pretty much invalidates Link's entire existence. I wish the dev team would do something to fix that.

Don't mind me, just the normal complainer~

 

[bc1910]

Sorry (not) to cut away from this fascinating slap-fight, but @Trifroze I believe you mentioned the EventHubs tier list as a way to gauge character strength at low/mid level?

I wanted to add that the r/smashbros tier list is worth looking at for mid/low level impressions, though I'd say the voters are slightly more switched-on overall. Whilst I would hate to restart the old tradition of posting that list in this thread every month, the most recent list was particularly interesting.



This was pre-Pound, although I'm sure the only character who's position will be notably affected by Pound is Mewtwo (Rosa should definitely come down a few spots but I find it unlikely that the wider community will recognize this).

Things to note:

• The top 5 is reasonable. I would put Diddy there over Rosa though.
• Rosalina is still considered very powerful despite results and MUs that aren't as good as Bayo's, pre-patch Sheik's, or an S-tier character in general.
  
• They agree that Sheik has been comfortably dethroned from #1 but is still top 5.
• Ryu is still being overrated, results are seemingly being ignored for theory. I can see him being insane at mid-level.
• Toon Link's results, however, seemingly aren't being ignored and he finds himself at the top of B-tier.
• Pikachu and Falcon are still pretty high, but both are trending down if you look at previous results.
• Greninja is in the top 20 for the first time since his original nerf.
• DK is being rated pretty low. Though to be fair, I can understand such a low placement when the character is so volatile.

 

[TurboLink]

TL pretty much invalidates Link's entire existence. I wish the dev team would do something to fix that.

Don't mind me, just the normal complainer~

No he doesn't.

 

[Luig]

No he doesn't.

I like how Link plays more. So I play him more than I play Toon Link.
I said almost.

But what the results and what the characters do show that TL is definitely an upgrade.

 

[Nobie]

So, what do we all think of Link anyways?

The enormous speed difference between Link's fall and fast fall is a unique trait only to him, and I feel like there's untapped potential there. It's just a hunch, though. Maybe it can be used to make up for Link's poor air speed.

Oh, and only slightly off-topic, I was recently watching the Excellent Adventures of Gootecks and Mike Ross and they had Alex Valle on (Street Fighter legend). They asked him his opinion of Ryu in SFV, and it sounds a lot like what Ryu players say about his potential:

It's relevant because SFV has a lot more ways to get past the classic Ryu game plan, so Ryus in turn have to step up their games, which is similar to how Smash Bros. introduces new obstacles to Ryu's style (platforms, general Smash style).

 

[R3D3MON]

M2 is light as f**k, though.

He's a glass cannon, and as such his neutral game needs to be pretty damn amazing to justify him being extremely light like he is.

Aba in an insanely good player and he took a character that most don't have solid matchup experience against and won a major with him. It's not all that surprising, really.

True, but what I'm saying is that his options in neutral seems to be too good for his character weakness and design. The character can be compared to G&W, who is also considered a glass cannon but lacks the range, endlag, and kill power of Mew2.

Also, for how insanely good Aba is, he doesn't exactly get dominating results in Japan. And like I said, he was never able to pull of what he did in Pound VI with an "extremely overtuned" character like MK.

Mew2's neutral is too good for his weaknesses and character design, especially because he has a working kill confirm setup from an aerial with big range (n-air), multiple/lasting hitboxes, good startup frames for an aerial attack, and barely any landing lag, which is just ridiculous. Characters that similarly fit Mew2's role of glass cannon (i.e. G&W) do not have nearly as many options or power/strength as Mew2 has in the neutral.

 

[Kofu]

Kofu
Fireball was nerfed in endlag specifically. Also its damage output was lowered. So basically a move that was unsafe on hit and only really had utility at mid/close range when opponents didn't perfect shield was nerfed further by the patch team.

Checking the patch notes its end lag was increased by three frames and, while not mentioned, I am aware that it now weakens with distance (something that makes it now contradict an in-game tip but whatever). I may be mistaken on this (I'm not well-versed in hitstun mechanics and would have to ask for clarification) but I remember reading from reputable sources that his Fireball was safe on hit and shield at mid-to close range, at least for characters who lacked an attack quick enough to hit Luigi before he grabbed them. Having that reduced as a possibility seems like a very wise decision from a design standpoint. Fireballs are still a low-commitment projectile that can net grabs or set up for traps offstage.

TL pretty much invalidates Link's entire existence. I wish the dev team would do something to fix that.

Don't mind me, just the normal complainer~

Link has substantially better range, damage, power, and throw game (at least until high percents and Link still has a kill throw). Toon Link's clearly more functional at a high level but Link functions well as a hybrid heavy and is a character I almost never want to trade with. His jab mixups, even after the nerf, still seem a lot more potent than Toon Link's, too.

 

[Luig]

Link has substantially better range, damage, power, and throw game (at least until high percents and Link still has a kill throw). Toon Link's clearly more functional at a high level but Link functions well as a hybrid heavy and is a character I almost never want to trade with. His jab mixups, even after the nerf, still seem a lot more potent than Toon Link's, too.

I didn't think before posting lol

I'm an idiot.

 

[TurboLink]

I like how Link plays more. So I play him more than I play Toon Link.
I said almost.

But what the results and what the characters do show that TL is definitely an upgrade.

I don't like Floaty Link either. The weaker mid-range in his standard attacks doesn't help either.

Like Rizen said earlier, the most important difference between and is mobility.

At first glance you'd probably think that there isn't much different between them besides mobility and range.

But there's actually quite a lot. From animations to frame data.

For example, Link has overall better landing lag than Toon Link (bar auto-cancels.).

Link's fair has an FAF of 50 while Toon Link's has an FAF of 39.

*stops myself from going on an endless session of comparisons*

 

[R3D3MON]

Kofu

What you said is all correct. Fireball was effective for anybody who did't have a projectile or enough speed (mobility-wise or attack-wise) to punish Luigi after he used fireballs. It was also effective at mid-range on non-perfect shields if people lacked reaction time or the character lacked a quick jab (or any other kind of GTFO move). BTW all of the nerfs for fireball came BEFORE the big nerf to his d-throw, and people were still complaining about fireballs afterwards, lol.

 

[adom4]

I don't like Floaty Link either. The weaker mid-range in his standard attacks doesn't help either.

Like Rizen said earlier, the most important difference between and is mobility.

At first glance you'd probably think that there isn't much different between them besides mobility and range.

But there's actually quite a lot. From animations to frame data.

For example, Link has overall better landing lag than Toon Link (bar auto-cancels.).

Link's fair has an FAF of 50 while Toon Link's has an FAF of 39.

*stops myself from going on endless session of comparisons*

Speaking of landing lag, Link's Fair has 12 frames of landing lag.
Izaw showed me the truth about that move, it's ****ing ridiculous.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo nair does not have big range (it's better than it was but not by much), and it's Frame 7. You beat nair by just...hitting Mewtwo.

Mewtwo is also the kind of character that looks (pocket) monstrous when on a roll, but looks terrible when put on the back foot. Right now the Mewtwo boards are discussing Mewtwo vs. Ganondorf and the general consensus is "Probably even or better, but holy crap this matchup is stressful." I don't know about you, but I think any character that has to legitimately worry about Ganondorf has enough vulnerabilities to matter (even if Mewtwo can play around them).

 

[adom4]

Mewtwo nair does not have big range (it's better than it was but not by much), and it's Frame 7. You beat nair by just...hitting Mewtwo.

Mewtwo is also the kind of character that looks (pocket) monstrous when on a roll, but looks terrible when put on the back foot. Right now the Mewtwo boards are discussing Mewtwo vs. Ganondorf and the general consensus is "Probably even or better, but holy crap this matchup is stressful." I don't know about you, but I think any character that has to legitimately worry about Ganondorf has enough vulnerabilities to matter (even if Mewtwo can play around them).

Ganon vs Mewtwo is pure jank, both jank each other so well it's frightening.

 

[Kofu]

True, but what I'm saying is that his options in neutral seems to be too good for his character weakness and design. The character can be compared to G&W, who is also considered a glass cannon but lacks the range, endlag, and kill power of Mew2.

Also, for how insanely good Aba is, he doesn't exactly get dominating results in Japan. And like I said, he was never able to pull of what he did in Pound VI with an "extremely overtuned" character like MK.

Mew2's neutral is too good for his weaknesses and character design, especially because he has a working kill confirm setup from an aerial with big range (n-air), multiple/lasting hitboxes, good startup frames for an aerial attack, and barely any landing lag, which is just ridiculous. Characters that similarly fit Mew2's role of glass cannon (i.e. G&W) do not have nearly as many options or power/strength as Mew2 has in the neutral.

Hoo boy.

First, did you just call Game & Watch's range bad? I understand that you're comparing it directly to Mewtwo's but still. His range is quite good. He also has the added bonus of not putting his hurtbox in your face for most moves (though it is extended for certain attacks).

Second, comparing Mewtwo to Game & Watch beyond their weight is very flawed. Game & Watch is no longer a glass cannon. He is built around his lingering hitboxes, disjoints, and low recovery time. I'm not sure what you'd call him, honestly, but that goes into my next point.

Third, Game & Watch's endlag is really dang good. An USmash with only 13 frames of endlag is just the icing on the cake. His attack startup is roughly comparable to Mewtwo's as well.

You're correct in saying that Mewtwo's neutral is stronger than Game & Watch's but that mainly is due to Shadow Ball and DTilt. Game & Watch has nothing to force approaches or to safely poke the opponent, so he has to make do with fake outs involving empty jumps, full-hop aerials, or his very short initial dash. Game & Watch also seems less fragile than Mewtwo to me, probably as a combination of having a smaller hurtbox, a recovery with a hitbox, and a faster jab. I'd contend Mewtwo's advantage is his strongest state, not his neutral, honestly.

Game & Watch is on the brink of being an excellent character IMO. I'd like to point out that Mewtwo has had copious buffs, including mobility increases, to make him as good as he is. Game & Watch has only received a knockback buff to DTilt and an almost trivial buff to Chef's pan hitbox.

I didn't think before posting lol

I'm an idiot.

You're good. Everyone says things without thinking now and again. I think you meant that Toon Link is far better in the competitive scene than Link because of his attributes but didn't express it right.

 

[bc1910]

Ganon vs Mewtwo is pure jank, both jank each other so well it's frightening.

I always thought of Mewtwo as PokeGanon. They can both murder you for the slightest mistake.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Y2Kay

So his overtuned reward got rid of his weaknesses? Also do you mean pre-patch?

Also, I'm gonna play the Devil's advocate right now and say that Mew2 should be nerfed. His rewards are also overtuned right now and they come straight from his neutral, which is his strong point. Seriously a death conversion from Footstools? And a fair that can kill, combo, and be used for spacing in neutral? And the mobility to easily set up said kill confirms? This character is looking bonkers right now. Also, out of all the DLC characters that are considered OP and dumb, Mew2 is the first one to win a U.S. major....LoL so much for Cloud and Bayo being dumb as hell.

lol wut? Honestly, I think Mewtwo is balanced how the entire cast should be balanced tbh. Basicially a character with great strengths, such as killing early and great edgeguarding, but with pretty good flaws, such as a big hurtbox and low weight. which makes him easy to kill. He also has some other strengths and flaws mixed in, but with more strengths over flaws so that you almost never feel like your character is screwing you up.

Do people not want any characters to win a national? lol

I need help assessing how good Kirby is. I may have jumped on the bandwagon a bit too hard after watching KID Goggles almost beat Mr. R... perhaps this only means that Kirby has a nice matchup against Sheik but still gets bopped by high tiers like Cloud? It seems Goggles only used Kirby vs Mr. R as well. Mike Kirby did get third at Kawaii Kon... I had him around #20 but I think maybe 25-30 range is more appropriate. Thoughts?

Since when has there been a Kid Goggles bandwagon?

But srrsly, I would put Kirby around 37th-40th. He has great strengths, such as great throws, amazing combos, good aierals, great tilts, and good edgeguarding, but has a significant flaw in which his bad range and bad approach gives him a bad neutral, which extrmely hurts his viability.

Matchup spread wise, Kirby's is one of the most interesting ones. For top/top-high tiers, I'd say it goes like this:

-3:

-2:

-1:

0:

Ness is either -1 or 0, not sure. General consensus for both Kirby and Ness mains seem to be 0.

Many top players think Kirby does better though. American Foxes such as Larry Lurr and Xzax seem to think Kirby beats Fox.

Kirby goes even with and beats at least.

Kirby has randomly good matchups aganist certain top and high tiers, but then he gets destroyed by and does bad aganist (The Donkey Kong matchup isn't that bad in theory, probably -1 but in results it's one of the worst, like -3.I guess this makes it -2). But then has those even/advantage matchups aganist , and I've heard people say he goes even with too.

Kinda crazy matchup spread, but I think it's solid overall.

For results, Kirby's is pretty solid, about as good as his general theory. He has Mikekirby mostly, with 13th at glitch. 5th at a KTAR, the Hawaii tournaments, and of course, the kid goggles thing.

So, what do we all think of Link anyways?

I think he's garbage and easily bottom 10. Terrible frame data, bad recovey, many bad attacks, extremely bad mobility, and one of the worst (Apart from his matchup aganist Villager) matchup spreads in the game.

I hate that people assume Link isn't bottom 10 because of his results, I mean results are important and all but theory means more and he has garbage theory.