Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

There's always the possibility the setups Nairo played on weren't final.

But I'm really really doubtful anybody but Cloud would of been changed much anyway.

I have my reservations in believing he wasn't really touched either. Just going by assumption and general trends over the last few updates it seems pretty hard to even correlate that tbh.

I doubt this is going to be a large change patch, I really do. The last big patch was a couple of patches ago (or perhaps more recent?) Regardless, it looks very unlikely in any case.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja just isn't a counterpick character. Being able to get out of the ladder kills won't help much if you can't play the character effectively and Greninja is a character that takes a good amount of effort to play well. Even then, he probably only beats MK slightly and likely goes even with ZSS.

 

[S_B]

There's always the possibility the setups Nairo played on weren't final.

But I'm really really doubtful anybody but Cloud would of been changed much anyway.

Like Cracklin said: another patch like the last one that brings some characters up from the depths of poopville into semi-viability would be great.

Greninja just isn't a counterpick character. Being able to get out of the ladder kills won't help much if you can't play the character effectively and Greninja is a character that takes a good amount of effort to play well. Even then, he probably only beats MK slightly and likely goes even with ZSS.

People have counterpicked characters for worse reasons.

It would be entirely worth it to learn Greninja if he beats or goes even with two of the biggest threats in the game, and if their most potent killing tools don't work on him, he's already WAAAAY better off than most other characters.

Greninja can still play his game the way HE wants to play it, instead of cowering in eternal fear of letting MK land that dash attack or letting ZSS get that grab...

 

[Das Koopa]

I can't agree with the statement that Zelda is inherently flawed (by design)

I'd say that applies more to Ganondorf, who seems to be a character who lives and dies by style.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd like to ask you the same thing if you ignore the fact that EVERY character has drawbacks. Singling out grapplers is stupid for that reason.

Slow but damaging generally doesnt work without other tools to mitigate this. Armored moves, other types of mobility, or ways to limit approach options are some ways around their inherent flaws. Yes all chars have weaknesses. But some weaknesses just dont matter in a competitive setting.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like Cracklin said: another patch like the last one that brings some characters up from the depths of poopville into semi-viability would be great.

Er, out of anybody Nairo played.

Actually kinda driving me nuts that he didn't try Dark Pit since Electroshock is dumb now. Like, dumb in every way possible besides endlag. Endlag ain't even that bad all things considered...

 

[JesterJaded]

Greninja can still play his game the way HE wants to play it, instead of cowering in eternal fear of letting MK land that dash attack or letting ZSS get that grab...

I think this^ hits the nail on the head. Being able to play without the fear of the ladder confirm is a gigantic boon in and of itself, where instead of MK forcing you to adapt to his playstyle and respect the ladder at all times, the MK player has to adapt and rely on his other tools on the dime.

The next step is determining whether or not Greninja holds a candle to said tools regardless.

Edit: here's a grand finals match for the matchup. I can't actually view it myself right now nor attest to the player skill, but go nuts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=idE6-7jjbQ0

 

[Djmarcus44]

Good list overall, any reservations I have with it have been said already, so I won't dwell on it.

I'd love to see where the Miis could go if they had people really playing them. I know guest size / 1111 is competitive suicide, I'd just be interested in seeing if they'd be in any way serviceable in the hands of a good player. That I know of, default Mii is kind of devoid of representation - they're indeed a rare and intriguing kind.

This is a video of ROM's Mii Gunner against a Pikachu player named Nitro in the Smash@SCU tournament. ROM tied for 9th in this 129 man tournament that had great players such as Komorikiri, Ranai, 9B, and Ally. Although ROM didn't use too many advanced techniques for 1111 gunner, he did show an impressive control of the neutral in this matchup against another character with a top-tier neutral.

 

[Megamang]

Another amazing greninja tool is his nair. Bad startup, small hitbox... but basically lagless, and confirms into high damage combos at low percent and to kills later. With his mobility and sh height, its a strong punish for rolls, whiffs, and projectiles done at a bad time.

 

[DunnoBro]

Q for DunnoBro and Duck Hunt players, where do you think he stands? I've seen people say he's bad and now that he's underrated. IDK much about the character.

Bad and not underrated at all. Literally every bit of "potential" people think he has involves just weak frame traps, even disregarding his inconsistencies (smashes, uair, frisbee, etc) He only has tools comparable to mid-tier at best. But of course those inconsistencies coupled with one of the worst recoveries in the game drag him down further. His placing in the official tier list is very accurate.

 

[Browny]

Is anyone going to talk about how from the videos, it looks like Bayonettas combo starting moves are all pretty punishable on block and her throws dont seem to start any.

That's not exactly a 'top 10 trait' when your damage per hit is poor and youre a lightweight character.

I'm not implying anything, just wondering why people seem to be ignoring that she honestly seems to lack a safe poke to start up her combos, the entire reason why she is considered good.

 

[JesterJaded]

Is anyone going to talk about how from the videos, it looks like Bayonettas combo starting moves are all pretty punishable on block and her throws dont seem to start any.

That's not exactly a 'top 10 trait' when your damage per hit is poor and youre a lightweight character.

I'm not implying anything, just wondering why people seem to be ignoring that she honestly seems to lack a safe poke to start up her combos, the entire reason why she is considered good.

I think plenty of us feared this would happen as soon as Sakurai mentioned "bad startup," but we're holding onto hope until the patch comes that he hasn't taken that to its logical extreme.

Morale isn't very high.

 

[Djent]

I'm really interested in Witch Time's applications in a 2v2 format. Even before any crazy team combos, taking an opponent out of commission for several seconds is already a huge punishment by itself. And if you pair Bayo with Cloud, you could...nah actually I'd rather not think about that right now.

 

[Shaya]

Bayonetta speculah ---> Bayonetta board is probably better.

 

[LancerStaff]

Technically off topic Shaya but I'm sure we're all dying to know... We got plans for the patch topic yet? For Cloud's patch we got data off the server early and found most of the changes like that. Anybody figure out if that'd be possible? Or at least do we have somebody lined up to take it right from a Wii U?

 

[Shaya]

Well, I wasn't involved in the last patch notes (nor ever been involved in direct data dumping; but it's a 3DS shindig IIRC and isn't limited to just Dant), so I'm not the one to ask on that point.
But patch note threads themselves? They're like death and taxes.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, I wasn't involved in the last patch notes (nor ever been involved in direct data dumping; but it's a 3DS shindig IIRC and isn't limited to just Dant), so I'm not the one to ask on that point.
But patch note threads themselves? They're like death and taxes.

Right, @Thinkaman handled that one. Either he got the data or had some connections... IDK, your kangaroo time is too late for me.

Thinkaman actually had two patch topics which kept things clean, if you didn't see 'em. One was for certified testers only and the other for general discussion/people telling people to test XYZ. Worked out pretty well, especially since they killed most of the placebo the night before.

Now that I kinda think about it, the patch might be coming kinda late for you since it's speculated to be coming at midnight Japan time. Kinda because it's late and don't feel like doing timezones and junk... You get the point. Just use your mod powers to make sure everything's ready, okay?

 

[IsmaR]

He's politely trying to say he and his "mod powers" aren't obligated to do anything for you.

We'll have something set up in due time, nobody needs to worry over it, nor pester the mods about it.

 

[bc1910]

Shaya Greninja's exceptional tools were all taken out in the first nerf patch lol. Usmash and Hydro Pump were bonkers and both were neutered. He IS a more fleshed out character now with less polarising options but he hasn't received anything that's as "top tier" as those were. His juggling, airdodge traps and edgeguarding WERE exceptional. Now they're just above average.

Shurikens you can argue either way, faster startup is often better than low endlag and aerial shurikens are the best they've ever been (they have prepatch ending lag with postpatch startup).

Shurikens are probably a top 5 projectile but not as exceptional as say, needles. His mobility IS exceptional, he has the best non-committal mobility in the game, but overall it's about as good as Pikachu, Sonic, ZSS' and Sheik's. They just commit a little harder with moves like Quick Attack and Spring Jump. The fact that Greninja doesn't need to commit to options like that is good but doesn't set him apart to "exceptional" level.

Greninja is "good" at everything and great at nothing, except his mobility which IS great but can be all but matched by better characters. He's a good example of a character with a versatility problem. It's enough to see him to the bottom of high tier but not much higher.

EDIT: You know, he's actually great at a lot of things. He has some fantastic traits, as you said. His dashgrab, range, recovery, they're all great. The real issue? He's not the BEST at anything. With his major tools neutered, nothing about him is unique.

Emblem Lord IMO it comes down to no-one THAT good playing him in the US. Venia is starting to show promise at least. Across the pond you see istudying consistently getting 1st and 2nd in Netherlands nationals (Mr-R-dominated, but not a weak region) and Eddy just got top 8 in a German-French national, with Germany being probably the strongest region in Europe. Japanese results are decent, a few top 8s and 16s here and there with some smaller tournament wins.

It's concerning that he's not placing well in one of the strongest regions in the world but I can't blame the character for being underrepresented. You can say he's "underrepped for a reason" but he's not underrepped elsewhere and is definitely not a bad character, he's better than many mid/low tiers who get more rep than him. In weaker regions he places better than you'd expect for a lower high tier. Overall I'd say his results average out to about where they need to be for a top 15-20 character and I don't see many people argue he should be higher.

 

[Nobie]

The complaints that 1111 Miis don't or shouldn't accurately reflect their power and placement on the tier list has me wondering about something.

Let's assume that, for the next tier list, Miis are completely free in terms of moveset. When ranking Miis, one would have to take into account every possible combination of moves (or at least combinations that aren't bad).

Are there any matchups that either become even or tilt in the Mii Fighters' favor if you're given the opportunity to pick the exact right moveset to fight against that character? This would be relative to what is generally considered a Mii's best moves, so Brawler would still have Helicopter Kick but might end up changing their neutral B, for example.

 

[Megamang]

Its possible, and I think the *fear* of that happening is what makes people vote against them having their entire moveset. No one wants to find out that their character can be gimped, totally zoned out, or combo'd in a way they've never seen and get knocked out of bracket by a "gimmick" character due to one move they didn't know the exact properties of. Of course, the answer is to do a little research on the moves, but considering the amount of interactions possible (What if the zoning is only effective with the tiny mii? What if the kill setup works with the medium mii? etc etc) I can understand why this seems daunting, especially for mid level tournament goers. Considering all of this, it makes sense that people would vote not to allow that to happen.

Of course, the Mii players really get the **** end of this deal. And that isn't fair either. Nobie I would love to see what would happen in the meta if that was allowed, although normal counterpicking times should apply. So, the mii would choose their moveset before they know the opponent's character, and then could change it after the first game during when they would regularly choose their character. In other words, simply treat each and every mii like a unique character, as this is the least complicated and most fair way to approach it. No one wants to sit down in a bracket match and have to deal with 'oh, you're X? let me equip Y'.

My 2 cents.

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a TO, I think the major reason Mii's are locked to 1111 sets is just due to Custom Set limitations; there are only 10 slots between the 3 or them, and that only allows 3-4 sets max per character, meaning counterpicking specials requires deleting and recreating new sets if you ever want to do a set that isnt one of the main 3-4 sets. Its a huge time sink to have to deal with that in matches, and as the opponent playing against it it's frustrating to have to wait for it when you just want to play the match.

 

[Wintermelon43]

When is the balance patch coming out EST?

 

[Yikarur]

Are there any matchups that either become even or tilt in the Mii Fighters' favor if you're given the opportunity to pick the exact right moveset to fight against that character? This would be relative to what is generally considered a Mii's best moves, so Brawler would still have Helicopter Kick but might end up changing their neutral B, for example.

Brawler can user either uppercut or shotput depending on the MU. Like shotput is useless against Sheik but ultimate uppercutnis really good in that MU. Against Rosalina and characters with a limited recovery I rather use shotput. Not sure if they are really MU shifting, I think both are relatively bad moves. If Halberd is legal you play piston punch there because the move is completely broken on that stage.
The other Miis are more diverse than Brawler.

As a TO, I think the major reason Mii's are locked to 1111 sets is just due to Custom Set limitations; there are only 10 slots between the 3 or them, and that only allows 3-4 sets max per character, meaning counterpicking specials requires deleting and recreating new sets if you ever want to do a set that isnt one of the main 3-4 sets. Its a huge time sink to have to deal with that in matches, and as the opponent playing against it it's frustrating to have to wait for it when you just want to play the match.

1. Creating a Mii is a matter of 30 seconds. Maybe a minute if you're slow and pick names etc. but not really more time consuming then creating you tag + it's a one time thing on a given set-up. (You only need to create it once per tournament per set-up)
2. You can create 100 Mii's. Isn't it sad that TOs argument with Mii's without knowing any specifics? We need more education on that subject... (hi Zgashi, long time not read 8) )

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh damn, didnt know it had that many slots, I was told at some point there was only like 10, good to know.

Tbh though, Im not against custom moves on Miis being legal, that was just the main reason I always thought it was a no go.

And I also just wanted to make a post to subscribe to this thread~

 

[Routa]

Then there is the height/weight thing. Many don't get how big of a impact size has for Miis. We all know how size impacts Miis base stats, but many seem to forget that it also has a impact on combos, edgeguarding etc. There is a reason why you won't be seeing Guest size Mii going for off stage edgeguarding. As we all know mobility is very important within this game.

There are a lot of people who ask what is the best set for X Mii. There isn't "THE SET" for Miis. For example there are couple of sets that are considered to be "the best" which are 13XX with 0:0 or with 50:0 size. Why so many different sets? Personal preference and MU advantages. There simply isn't one definite set.

In my opinion forcing Miis to use Guest Size 1111 is like forcing other characters not to use their "gimmicks". This would mean that Lucario and some other characters would be insta banned. And yes my example is bad and I should feel bad, but you get my point.

Edit: yeah english isn't my strong point...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh damn, didnt know it had that many slots, I was told at some point there was only like 10, good to know.

Tbh though, Im not against custom moves on Miis being legal, that was just the main reason I always thought it was a no go.

And I also just wanted to make a post to subscribe to this thread~

Other characters are limited to 10 each. Miis are the exception.

 

[Nobie]

Another question: Why do people confuse whiff punishing with hard reads? When looking at Smash talk, it seems like people complain about characters relying too much on reads... on characters that really more on smart spacing.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can't agree with the statement that Zelda is inherently flawed (by design)

I'd say that applies more to Ganondorf, who seems to be a character who lives and dies by style.

Dorf you could pretty easily get to midtier like in Melee if you buffed jab and Dthrow to be somewhat comparable to what they were in that game and made Wizkick stronger. Not sure what they could do to fix Zelda, since she's been bad in every canon Smash.

 

[Ulevo]

In my opinion Mii's should not be allowed to use anything beyond their guest size. The reason for this is simply that it adds too many variables into the mix regarding match ups in a game that already has 60 characters. The combos and punishes that would work on default will not work on other size weight variations, and I think this pushes the expectations of character knowledge a little too much on the non-Mii player. It is also simpler from a logistics perspective.

I do believe there is no excuse for Mii's to not be allowed to use their custom moves however.

 

[Weaknd]

- I'd make ike higher since ike's main do well at national...
- same goes for pac man since i played against Zage, pac is really underated, he has a nice spacing and pressure game
+ if you don't know the match up / pac man tricks you'll have a hard Time.
But it's true that the day pac man and his tricks Will be known by everyone (i doubt that would happen imo) he will go down in the tier list but atm he should be higher...

 

[jespoke]

I've been trying out Mii Swordfighter a bit to assess my stance on Miis. Sizes certainly affect combos and viability of the Miis, but i think i could live with default sizes just fine. What i could not live with is the atrocity that is Swordfighter's Up-B 1.

I fall on the side of customs off, default mii, all moves. There probably should be restrictions requiring you to set up 1 Mii before the set begins and leave it the same for the rest of the set to relieve TO's fears of people going to back to the custom menu between games. But setting up the Mii itself doesn't take much longer than making a name+controls since the player knows what to pick beforehand.

 

[Xandercosm]

Dorf you could pretty easily get to midtier like in Melee if you buffed jab and Dthrow to be somewhat comparable to what they were in that game and made Wizkick stronger. Not sure what they could do to fix Zelda, since she's been bad in every canon Smash.

All Zelda needs to be low-mid to mid would be buffs to mobility and maybe some real throw followups. Also, she could use a couple random things here and there such as:

• Side special not causing helpless falling
• Down special being harder to kill
• Some moves stringing in to each other better

Until those things are fixed/added, I think she has big issues to deal with. Even Ganondorf looks good compared to her. I really desperately hope that in the coming patch they fix a lot of the low and bottom tier characters. It's awful to feel at a huge disadvantage when playing them. Over a year is long enough to wait for buffs so hopefully bottom tiers will get their due. If not, I'll be very disappointed.

 

[Xyro77]

Samus's placing is accurate. She is bad but not bottom 5.

I wanna thank the SBR for their work. This list is a great starting point. In 5 years this list will be so different. I'm hyped.

 

[Das Koopa]

Dorf you could pretty easily get to midtier like in Melee if you buffed jab and Dthrow to be somewhat comparable to what they were in that game and made Wizkick stronger. Not sure what they could do to fix Zelda, since she's been bad in every canon Smash.

Zelda is really close to being workable, I think. I made a post last topic on the subject, but she needs:

-Better frames on both Lightning Kicks
-Phantom Knight needs to be stronger, storable, faster, and more durable. Make it a centerpiece of a defensive strategy - only fair for a highly defensive character who used to literally have the best Down B in the franchise.
-Grab kill confirm into Lightning Kick at high percents
-Faster Din's Fire with little endlag

I think she actually has the moveset, it just needs to be sped up. With Ganondorf, I contest that his mobility and bottom 5
recovery will forever cripple him as a character.

 

[Sonicfiend]

Zelda is really close to being workable, I think. I made a post last topic on the subject, but she needs:

-Better frames on both Lightning Kicks
-Phantom Knight needs to be stronger, storable, faster, and more durable. Make it a centerpiece of a defensive strategy - only fair for a highly defensive character who used to literally have the best Down B in the franchise.
-Grab kill confirm into Lightning Kick at high percents
-Faster Din's Fire with little endlag

I think she actually has the moveset, it just needs to be sped up. With Ganondorf, I contest that his mobility and bottom 5
recovery will forever cripple him as a character.

Also her Nayru's Love needs some work, or at least have the move's active frames match its animation. Too many times have I used it up close only to get hit through the crystal that encapsulates her. Looks weird as heck when it happens.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Zelda is really close to being workable, I think. I made a post last topic on the subject, but she needs:

-Better frames on both Lightning Kicks
-Phantom Knight needs to be stronger, storable, faster, and more durable. Make it a centerpiece of a defensive strategy - only fair for a highly defensive character who used to literally have the best Down B in the franchise.
-Grab kill confirm into Lightning Kick at high percents
-Faster Din's Fire with little endlag

I think she actually has the moveset, it just needs to be sped up. With Ganondorf, I contest that his mobility and bottom 5
recovery will forever cripple him as a character.

Wizkick actually hitting harder and having kill power would mean a lot for Dorf's effective mobility, especially insofar as what opponents have to play around. For now it's kind of an afterthought for most characters. Brawl airspeed too would mean a lot for the character, including his recovery, which like all recoveries in Smash 4 save Little Mac's is generally workable as long as you have your second jump. Even without it more reliable throw combos and out of shield tools would make a big difference. Zelda's main "fix" of jank LK confirms doesn't change her bottom of the barrel neutral, though I suppose functional Din's and Phantom might. Being able to outcamp people would fix up quite a few things, though obviously LOLNeedles would likely keep her from meta relevance, though it's not as if Dorf's going to have an answer to them anytime soon either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

My biggest complaint (aside from Wii Fit) is that I don't understand Roy's placement at all. It seems like everyone else in low tier is better represented, has better results, and, aside from a few others like Little Mac, has better match ups. I honestly think Doc and Roy should switch places because at least Doc is a confirmed pocket of several top level players. Seriously though, who's ranking with Roy?

 

[HeavyLobster]

My biggest complaint (aside from Wii Fit) is that I don't understand Roy's placement at all. It seems like everyone else in low tier is better represented, has better results, and, aside from a few others like Little Mac, has better match ups. I honestly think Doc and Roy should switch places because at least Doc is a confirmed pocket of several top level players. Seriously though, who's ranking with Roy?

Hardly anyone. There's still the perception of him being decent from back when he was FOTM, but he really isn't all that great. Doc is definitely better.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In my personal opinion, he's basically Little Mac with a sword and I'm hard pressed to believe he's better than Link, Marth, or Shulk because all three of them have better tools. Part of the issue with the low tier though is that a lot of the characters don't have a ton of representation so I almost feel like a lot of it was guess work. For example, with all the tools Wii Fit and Lucas have, there's no way in hell that either of them are low tier. Wii Fit was ranking when she was perceived to be bottom tier and Lucas has tons of room to grow and already has some legs up on Ness such as not being chewed up and spit out by Rosalina.