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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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TTTTTsd

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Hardly anyone. There's still the perception of him being decent from back when he was FOTM, but he really isn't all that great. Doc is definitely better.
I am of the firm belief that Doc is better as well. I believe Doc should be about where Roy is (dunno if they should swap places, but Doc should be above Marth and Roy respectively IMO).

That being said Doc is still not a good character despite being very close to one, but I'm unsure about Roy's placement on there as well despite me believing at this point that he may or may not be marginally better than Marth (I tend to fluctuate because they're both bad but have things the other wants in a lot of instances, it's weird). I don't think the difference is enough to really matter though.
 

LancerStaff

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He's politely trying to say he and his "mod powers" aren't obligated to do anything for you.

We'll have something set up in due time, nobody needs to worry over it, nor pester the mods about it.
No need to be snippy... Trying to be funny at 2 a.m. is hard.

Just wanted to make sure we're ready for the usual ****storm.
 

S_B

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I think this^ hits the nail on the head. Being able to play without the fear of the ladder confirm is a gigantic boon in and of itself, where instead of MK forcing you to adapt to his playstyle and respect the ladder at all times, the MK player has to adapt and rely on his other tools on the dime.
And I guarantee one thing: all but the very best MKs aren't going to be prepared for not being able to use the ladder combo.

The first time it fails, they're gonna be all "HOW DO I KILL THIS F**KING FROG?!?"
 
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S_B

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FSmash anyone
Greninjas aren't likely to get hit by Fsmash, since the way Gren wants to approach is probably going to be SH nair to combo into other things.

And the point I'm making is that MKs who have labbed around landing the ladder are probably going to flounder when they can't use it.

Good MKs like Tyrant will be prepared for this, however.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Another question: Why do people confuse whiff punishing with hard reads? When looking at Smash talk, it seems like people complain about characters relying too much on reads... on characters that really more on smart spacing.
Inaccurate terminology is generally a bit of a problem. Commentators speak of "hard reads" when somebody gets [borderline-] guaranteed follow-ups or punishes and people still use misleading / poor words like RAR or priority.

:059:
 

S_B

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Inaccurate terminology is generally a bit of a problem. Commentators speak of "hard reads" when somebody gets [borderline-] guaranteed follow-ups or punishes and people still use misleading / poor words like RAR or priority.

:059:
And many commentators don't seem to know that "hitbox" and "hurtbox" are two completely different things and that the distinction is extremely important.

Also, we have a time: https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

From Wednesday, February 3, 2016 4:50 PM - Wednesday, February 3, 2016 6:30 PM Pacific Time

Patch should be hitting 9:30 PM EST, 6:30 PM PST
 
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TheHypnotoad

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Inaccurate terminology is generally a bit of a problem. Commentators speak of "hard reads" when somebody gets [borderline-] guaranteed follow-ups or punishes and people still use misleading / poor words like RAR or priority.

:059:
How is RAR misleading? I understand how priority would be misleading, considering it doesn't actually exist, but RAR just means doing a pivot just before jumping in order to move forwards in midair while facing backwards without losing any momentum.
 

Coffee™

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Greninjas aren't likely to get hit by Fsmash, since the way Gren wants to approach is probably going to be SH nair to combo into other things.

And the point I'm making is that MKs who have labbed around landing the ladder are probably going to flounder when they can't use it.

Good MKs like Tyrant will be prepared for this, however.
Grounded Shuttle Loop and Shuttle Loop OoS are good enough kill options. Brawl has provided enough examples of this.

Also, random pocket Greninjas won't beat MK mains...
 
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S_B

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Grounded Shuttle Loop and Shuttle Loop OoS are good enough kill options. Brawl has provided enough examples of this.

Also, random pocket Greninjas won't beat MK mains...
Who's talking about random pocket frogs?

If MK and ZSS keep their ladders forever, Greninja will be an excellent choice for a main because he can escape their primary means of securing early kills.
 

jespoke

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Who's talking about random pocket frogs?

If MK and ZSS keep their ladders forever, Greninja will be an excellent choice for a main because he can escape their primary means of securing early kills.
But then you are stuck with a secondary for the Sheik matchup that you will probably be facing more often, one of the reason you don't see so much Greninja to begin with
 

David Viran

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Who's talking about random pocket frogs?

If MK and ZSS keep their ladders forever, Greninja will be an excellent choice for a main because he can escape their primary means of securing early kills.
I wouldn't call the ladder combo zss's main way of killing early with no/low rage. That would be something involving flip kick spikes which still work on greninja. I would consider it the best way with rage because it becomes a lot more likely to kill and not even greninja is immune to it because up b doesn't need to full connect.
 

~ Gheb ~

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How is RAR misleading? I understand how priority would be misleading, considering it doesn't actually exist, but RAR just means doing a pivot just before jumping in order to move forwards in midair while facing backwards without losing any momentum.
That's why I said "misleading / poor" ... RAR isn't wrong, it just sounds terrible. I hope the term "pivot aerial" can establish itself sometime soon.

:059:
 

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Although RAR is different from PP>aerial, pivot aerial is still kinda weird. It makes me think of turnaround B>BAir ala DK.
 

S_B

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But then you are stuck with a secondary for the Sheik matchup that you will probably be facing more often, one of the reason you don't see so much Greninja to begin with
So I guess we're back to "Either it gets nerfed or the meta is gonna have a real bad time", eh?

Like I said, I think the MK matchup is only going to get worse for most characters (ie everyone except Sheik, and probably even for Shiek) as players further optimize the ladder setups.

And when one dash attack = death, I can't see MK doing anything but hard countering most of the roster. When forced to play the matchup on MK's terms, how effective will most characters really be?
 
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LancerStaff

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Can't we just call a RAR Bair a Bair? Like, really, RAR's not a hard thing to figure out. It's about as dumb as calling a dashing Usmash anything but since most people learn that themselves. My then six-year-old sister figured out that one by pressing buttons.
 

Ulevo

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So I guess we're back to "Either it gets nerfed or the meta is gonna have a real bad time", eh?

Like I said, I think the MK matchup is only going to get worse for most characters (ie everyone except Sheik, and probably even for Shiek) as players further optimize the ladder setups.

And when one dash attack = death, I can't see MK doing anything but hard countering most of the roster. When forced to play the matchup on MK's terms, how effective will most characters really be?
This is incorrect. Not only are players not DIing the combo correctly, but it fails or changes when the opponents DI the actual hit confirm. There are characters, like Melee Fox and Smash Wii U Sheik, that are hypothetically impossible to beat with perfect play. There are also contrast characters to this principle, where when close to perfect play is assumed, they become much worse. Meta Knight is such a character. The combo itself, like Zero Suit's Boost Kick combos months ago, is overrated.
 
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Nobie

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You know what would be the biggest and best patch ever?

Adding staleness and freshness to TRAINING MODE. It would make labbing characters sooooo much easier.

Edit: Oh and Rage.
 
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Amadeus9

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So I guess we're back to "Either it gets nerfed or the meta is gonna have a real bad time", eh?

Like I said, I think the MK matchup is only going to get worse for most characters (ie everyone except Sheik, and probably even for Shiek) as players further optimize the ladder setups.

And when one dash attack = death, I can't see MK doing anything but hard countering most of the roster. When forced to play the matchup on MK's terms, how effective will most characters really be?
MK is a pretty dumb character

This is incorrect. Not only are players not DIing the combo correctly, but it fails or changes when the opponents DI the actual hit confirm. There are characters, like Melee Fox and Smash Wii U Sheik, that are hypothetically impossible to beat with perfect play. There are also contrast characters to this principle, where when close to perfect play is assumed, they become much worse. Meta Knight is such a character. The combo itself, like Zero Suit's Boost Kick combos months ago, is overrated.
You keep saying there is some magic way to DI MK's combos. Can you enlighten us, Mister Wizard?
 

Vipermoon

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You know what would be the biggest and best patch ever?

Adding staleness and freshness to TRAINING MODE. It would make labbing characters sooooo much easier.
Usually I don't want that. But when I do, there should a stale/freshness switch. There should also be a rage switch.
 
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DanGR

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Re: Mii Brawler switching specials to gain advantages in different matchups. I missed the discussion but I have a lot of experience playing the character in all different sizes and using different specials. The following applies to mid height/weight, which is the standard ruling in more places (not all!).

Switching between helicopter kick and piston punch is more impactful than between the neutral-bs. Uppercut is generally better for two main reasons.
1. Uppercut gives Brawler another kill option in a kit with few kill options. Shot put gives you a pretty telegraphed damage-racking projectile in a kit that doesn't have problems racking up damage anyways.
2. In general, while playing Brawler you have to be extremely delicate in the way you setup the opponents' HP for early kills, and shot put's high damage disrupts your ability to do this. At Shot put's usable percents, uppercut becomes a kill move.

-From 0-20~% you have dthrow->fair chain grabs that end in upb. At 0%, Shot put is a tool you can't use effectively in neutral. Grabs and attacks that lead into grabs have much better risk:reward at these percents.

-From 30-40% it's important that you try to set up into the killing dthrow->upb combo. Hitting an opponent with Shot put just ruins your chances of landing the grab via setups.

-From ~40-45%, you have the death combo of dthrow->helicopter kick. If you haven't set up into the grab via nair, general juggling, etc then you have to either fish for the grab by the ledge or accept that you probably won't kill until much higher percents.

There's just little room for Shot put (15%) to be useful until past kill-combo percents. If you get them past the percents where you can't combo into upb, it's likely you won't be killing for another 100%. It's similar to Melee Marth in that way- Smash4 Sheik too, I suppose.

In short, your ability to kill with helicopter kick in particular hinges on the ability to grab the opponent at the right spot at the perfect percent, while also setting up your early combos in such a way that the opponent ends up in that spot as well. Shot put impedes this until higher percents where uppercut becomes a viable kill option.

Piston punch is another great killing upb (which is arguably better overall) which gives you some pseudo 50:50 kills at low kill percents as far as common kill moves go, and is effective at a much wider spread of percents than helicopter kick. The upward traveling hitbox is much more useful in catching airdodges against characters you'd combo more vertically too, so that's another area it differentiates itself.
 
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C0rvus

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At this point, I don't mind rage. As far as mechanics go, it's nowhere near as harmful or dumbfounding that random tripping. If anything, rage mixes things up. Without it, combos would be even more rote and gameplay would homogenize more, which I'm not about. It also throws heavies a well-deserved bone.
 

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Even though opinions could wildly change within the next couple of days, what do you guys think are the five most BTFO match ups in this game aside from Rosalina vs Ness? For the sake of relevancy, let's just leave out bottom tier characters unless you believe a bottom tier has a strong advantage against someone higher up. I'm interested in what other people have to say before I post my own.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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My biggest complaint (aside from Wii Fit) is that I don't understand Roy's placement at all. It seems like everyone else in low tier is better represented, has better results, and, aside from a few others like Little Mac, has better match ups. I honestly think Doc and Roy should switch places because at least Doc is a confirmed pocket of several top level players. Seriously though, who's ranking with Roy?
There was a solo Roy that got top 32 at a larger tournament very recently. Like the last tournament that was talked about in detail in the previous character impressions topic.

I'd consider solo placements > pockage usage. Don't have a problem with Roy's placement. He's a marginally better Marth.
 

Sonicninja115

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There was a solo Roy that got top 32 at a larger tournament very recently. Like the last tournament that was talked about in detail in the previous character impressions topic.

I'd consider solo placements > pockage usage. Don't have a problem with Roy's placement. He's a marginally better Marth.
What tourney? and was it sethlon?
 

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Sheik/Frog or MK
Pika or Sheik/Falcon

There are probably several I'm forgetting but these are pretty unanimously agreed to be awful.
 

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There was a solo Roy that got top 32 at a larger tournament very recently. Like the last tournament that was talked about in detail in the previous character impressions topic.

I'd consider solo placements > pockage usage. Don't have a problem with Roy's placement. He's a marginally better Marth.
This seems very anecdotal, not to mention one tournament doesn't determine how good a character is.
 

Linkshot

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Even though opinions could wildly change within the next couple of days, what do you guys think are the five most BTFO match ups in this game aside from Rosalina vs Ness? For the sake of relevancy, let's just leave out bottom tier characters unless you believe a bottom tier has a strong advantage against someone higher up. I'm interested in what other people have to say before I post my own.
I can't think of anything super polarizing in Top 15 but as far as "Bottom beats Top", I'm very interested in exploring the Jr vs Cloud matchup. I found out early on that a grab at the ledge usually results in a stock for Jr, since you grab release and force Cloud below the ledge, inevitably leading into him jumping/Climhazzarding into dAir, which kills him on the spot from gravity. Other dynamics are patient Clouds charging Limit will allow Jr to set up his Mechakoopa for free, and I'm not sure if Kart Dash armors through aerial Blade Beam / Cross Slash?
 

DanGR

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Even though opinions could wildly change within the next couple of days, what do you guys think are the five most BTFO match ups in this game aside from Rosalina vs Ness? For the sake of relevancy, let's just leave out bottom tier characters unless you believe a bottom tier has a strong advantage against someone higher up. I'm interested in what other people have to say before I post my own.
Off the top of my head,
Rosalina vs DK
Rosalina vs Luigi
Rosalina vs Bowser
Sheik vs Megaman
ZSS vs R.O.B.

Having a hard time thinking of worse matchups from mid tier up, though I'm sure Fox wrecks some slow characters pretty hard.
 
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Fatmanonice

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I can't think of anything super polarizing in Top 15 but as far as "Bottom beats Top", I'm very interested in exploring the Jr vs Cloud matchup. I found out early on that a grab at the ledge usually results in a stock for Jr, since you grab release and force Cloud below the ledge, inevitably leading into him jumping/Climhazzarding into dAir, which kills him on the spot from gravity. Other dynamics are patient Clouds charging Limit will allow Jr to set up his Mechakoopa for free, and I'm not sure if Kart Dash armors through aerial Blade Beam / Cross Slash?
I play Iggy as one of my secondaries and I have to say that this match up is mostly rough for Bowser Jr.

In Bowser Jr's favor:

-Mechakoopa can stop both forms of blade beam.
-Destroys Cloud offstage.
-Ledge traps are very easy to pull off against him compared to most top/high tiers.

In Cloud's favor:

-Can juggle Bowser Jr more than the other way around.
-Makes landing very hard for Bowser Jr.
-Whiffed or shielded attacks are very easy for Cloud to hard punish.
-Mecha koopa is fairly easy for Cloud to stop thanks to blade beam and how his dash attack (unless timed extremely late) will either make him grab it or have it explode on the front of his sword.
-Blade beam can knock you into free fall if you don't snap the ledge after Abandon Ship.
-Ftilt/cross slash/dtilt out prioritize the Koopa Kart.
-Shielding the Koopa Kart makes it easy for Cloud to follow up with utilt or uair.
-Except on the ledge, grab releases/mashouts will usually result in hard punishes thanks to Cloud's range.
 

Gamegenie222

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You know what would be the biggest and best patch ever?

Adding staleness and freshness to TRAINING MODE. It would make labbing characters sooooo much easier.

Edit: Oh and Rage.
And a record feature for those who dont have friends lmao. No but seriously a play and record feature goes along way and every FG but smash has one in this day of age.

EDIT: First post in the new CCI thread hello ya'll.
 
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S_B

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Usually I don't want that. But when I do, there should a stale/freshness switch. There should also be a rage switch.
It's a shame that SSB is afraid to go into "advanced mode" for all kinds of things.

For example, how awesome would it have been to have "advanced settings" where we can do things like turn off screen shake, stage hazards, screen/star KOs, etc.?

How many more legal stages would we have if we could just turn redonk hazards off?

Even though opinions could wildly change within the next couple of days, what do you guys think are the five most BTFO match ups in this game aside from Rosalina vs Ness? For the sake of relevancy, let's just leave out bottom tier characters unless you believe a bottom tier has a strong advantage against someone higher up. I'm interested in what other people have to say before I post my own.
I would say Sheik vs. Little Mac, especially on a stage with platforms where she can easily tinder combo carry him beyond his recovery range.
 
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Linkshot

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I play Iggy as one of my secondaries and I have to say that this match up is mostly rough for Bowser Jr.

In Cloud's favor:

-Can juggle Bowser Jr more than the other way around.
-Makes landing very hard for Bowser Jr.
Oof, really? I was expecting Abandon Ship to be a really good option against uAir pillars and to escape Cross Slash :(
 

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Training mode is ridiculously barebones in general compared to other fighting games. It's really annoying.
 
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S_B

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Training mode is ridiculously barebones in general compared to other fighting games. It's really annoying.
Maybe a SSB5 in which Nintendo and its director (which may very well end up being Sakurai again) have an appreciation for the competitive scene will have more fleshed out options in those veins.
 

ligersandtigons

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my biggest issue with smash training mode is there is no way to record inputs for the computer to practice whiff punishing and perfect shielding among other things

at least with rage and staleness, you can kinda get around it through an infinite time battle
 
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