Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

1% nerf to the total move. But the last hit still hits just as hard? Why? Maybe it traps a little less?

 

[S_B]

If those nerfs really were meaningful people wouldn't still be complaining about needles and Bouncing Fish

The biggest problem with Sheik is still that she doesn't have to commit to anything to get everything she needs to do done.

She needs some lag, SOMEWHERE, or she's always going to overwhelm the majority of the cast with relative ease.

Even removing needles outright isn't going to fix it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

She needs some lag, SOMEWHERE, or she's always going to overwhelm the majority of the cast with relative ease.

Well... her grenades are somwhat laggy

 

[Megamang]

Well without needles at least she'd have to use her absurd kit to approach instead of just deny inferior approaches...

 

[TurboLink]

Would you rather have Bouncing Fish kill you at 50% raw, then? 'Cause that's what it did back in those days.

Smooth Criminal

Does anyone have proof of this? And are we talking about onstage or offstage? (I think we're talking about offstage.)

 

[Shaya]

Anywho, I've been hoarding this for a while now (mostly because of the format I wished to release this in [i'm so bad/lazy in this regard]), but as I'm already working on an 'extension' of amazing amazingness and how bad I feel for not having it public earlier....
the entire smash4 cast's aerial safety data~

I've had this sitting around for too long: so here it is - the entire Smash 4 cast's aerial safety data! https://t.co/v8gUdFNYQz

— shaya (@ShayaJP) February 3, 2016

When I imported to googledocs, some functions decided to error throw and I have no idea why. But those numbers under characters are meant to be average safety on landing/ACs.

For interest's sake:

Top 5 Landing Averages
Ryu -5
Mewtwo -7.2
ZSS -7.67
Mii Brawler -7.8
Lucas -7.81

Top 5 Auto Cancel Averages
Ganondorf -7.53
Fox -9.4
Luigi -10.2
Ryu -10.97
Falcon -11

As a note, these averages aren't necessarily 'fair' across the cast.

Assuming script data dumps + landing lags established of Bay/Corn I'll have them easily added after the weekend (I won't have internet access for the next few days).

tl;dr Ganondorf and Ryu are super broken and needs nerfs.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Think of it like this... Imagine the Ice Climbers but Nana stands in front of Popo, meaning that, from a basic standpoint, she's a living shield. She can't grab but Popo can desync with her on a whim and have her attack on the other side of the stage but call her back with a single button push, even if he's up in the air. Nana can attack Popo's opponent if he gets grabbed or even if he's in hitstun or has a broken shield. Now imagine that Nana has more knockback to her attacks than Popo does. Imagine that Popo's recovery isn't hurt by Nana not being around. Finally, imagine Nana inexplicably exploding when she takes a certain amount of damage, only to come back a short time later with full health again. This, my friend, is why Rosalina has already received 15 NERFS and yet is still one of the best characters in the game.

You're forgetting to mention that this Nana also can't do anything when put into hitstun until she lands, meaning that she dies when knocked off stage.

 

[Ryusuta]

needs a repurpose in life, period. Being "lazy" is not good. If she were lazy , or her aerials were reworked to do 0-to-deaths, then people would bother playing her.

I actually disagree. I don't think it's so much laziness as consistency. Not having to space exactly right for tippers IS a legitimate tactical advantage in a lot of ways, as is not having such widely variable damage and kill percentages. That's why she actually has a slightly better matchup against certain rushdown characters. I don't know if that makes her better or even exactly as good, since Marth's 60% kills are too amazing for words, but I do think that there's more to her than just being lazy.

Hopefully we'll get another Brolylegs to rep her at some point, since a lot of this is indeed speculation.

 

[S_B]

PATCH IS UP!!!!!

GOOOO get it!

(better here than starting a thread)

 

[kaz99]

Corrin feels pretty slow.....on the bright side charging fsmash does have a hitbox after all!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, Ike's Nair and Fair got damage buffs.

This means that Fair kills roughly 10% sooner. But more importantly, Nair is a legit kill option out of Nair. So if you're grabbed at like 100%+, you have to decide if you're going to try to dodge Fair, Uair, or Nair. And as far as I know there is no one timing for air dodge that covers all three due to the lingering hitboxes of Uair and Nair.

 

[Ulevo]

Umbra Clock Tower has the dimensions of Battlefield. It is the same ceiling height, blast zons width and stage length, just with occasional platforms sprinkled in. This will surely affect characters depending on how the future format goes.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

This list ended up a little different than I expected. As much as I was hoping to and am glad to see Pikachu as high as he is, I thought he was going to be undercut when an official list finally came in for whatever reason. Not surprised to see Meta Knight and Diddy Kong sticking around the top 10, Diddy has proven to remain a force, and Meta Knight is showing he is still devastating and his advantages haven't been quite diminished. I expected to see Toon Link, ROB, Lucario, and the whole heard around mid-tier to be around where they ended up being. They didn't really change their effectiveness relative to the cast that much between Brawl and Smash 4's 1.1.3 patch. I'm a little surprised but understanding how Roy is lower on the list, still, he's not too low, I'm happy to use him and know he's near the middle of the pack at least.

 

[lbrasz44]

Bayonetta has a learning curve to her, definitely harder to pick up than Corrin. With that said, witch time is dumb as hell haha. Corrin is pretty cool. His/her tilts and aerials come out fairly quick, with dilt comboing into uair being one of their basic combos to utilise. Uair and fair are also fairly powerful too. Lunge shenanigans are also a thing, helping with recovery giving Corrin some unique options in neutral.

So far Corrin is pretty damn fun to play whereas Bayonetta is gonna be annoying to play on for glory and competitive play haha

 

[jespoke]

Umbra Clock Tower has the dimensions of Battlefield. It is the same ceiling height, blast zons width and stage length, just with occasional platforms sprinkled in. This will surely affect characters depending on how the future format goes.

Wouldn't that give it the highest floor to ceiling height of all legal stages? Not all the transformations have high platforms, so this could become the premiere high ceiling stage, which is something we didn't really have before

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So here's what I got out of about an hour and a half of For Glory Corrin
-These kids are SLOW. Run speed's not so great and they don't move very well in the air. Bair's pushback isn't just a nice feature, it's pretty much life or death, especially when you're far off-stage.

-Dragon Fang Shot is an excellent projectile and the bite works as a decent fail safe if your opponent tries to rush in after dodging the shot. Corrin's run speed doesn't really let them follow up, but it's a good move to supplement their slow normal movement. And the bite hits very hard.

-As of now the stick-in part of Dragon Lunge feels disappointingly gimmicky, though the stab and pinning the opponent both feel fine. Jumping out of it feels kinda pointless as of now because you can't act out of it very fast and Corrin's garbage air speed makes it hard to chase the opponent. It's nice that it sticks to wall though because Dragon Ascent is nothing special. As for the kicks, they can cross up reasonably well, and I was shocked to learn that the retreating kick has a front hitbox where Corrin swings around his own arm. Kinda handy!

-All 3 tilts, nair, and fair knock upwards. Uair, Counter Surge, and Dragon Ascent all kill well vertically. Corrin jumps pretty high. You can do the math.

-FSmash is GR8. Hits hard and the charging hits are cool. Usmash and DSmash feel kinda eh to use, but tipper USmash at the very least is another excellent vertical killer.

-Throws are mostly positional, but DThrow kills alright with some rage.

-I think proper Bair usage along with Dragon Lunge fake-outs (you don't have to stab after the hop. It will incur slight ending lag though) may make or break this character, as they give them some much-needed mobility.

Overall: A bit awkard to get used to and recovery/standard movement are weak, but they have some seemingly powerful tools that I hope to see developed into something special. And you can't argue with an FSmash that long.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm seeing a lot of potential with Corrin's mixups out of short hop. SHAD, 3 aerials that autocancel (2 of which seem mostly safe), Drangon Lunge (which has mixups of its own), tomahawk grab. I like it a lot, this character feels good.

Recovery is pretty mediocre, but D. Ascent is a decent kill move as well. Corrin is pretty alright. Bayonetta is... yuck. Witch Time is some pretty seriously skewed risk-reward. Seems like the time you spend frozen is based on the move she counters rather than the percent you are at.

 

[TDK]

Corrin's actually a solid character. Speed's kind of ehh, but Fair strings into Up B off the top seem legit. Up air can kill as early as 93%, it seems.

Fair is probably her best move though. Massive hitbox + Upwards KB + Her high jump height means she can kill off the top really quickly. Also testing Fair -> double jump Dair to see if it works, Dair next to a platform to up smash also seems to work.

Bayonetta is really disappointing.

 

[Ffamran]

I know I shouldn't be doing this, but just to rile some people up and why not? It's Bayonetta and Corrin's release!

*plop*

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Edit: Weird... quote box is too small, so let's see if text "fixes" it.

Yay! More ladders of doom!

 

[ARISTOS]

Bayonetta seems really ****ing hard to play, but from what I've played there seems to be a very strong character there.

She seems just like from her games, difficulty and all

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Corrin's Neutral B is actually quite interesting. It has two separate charges. One for the blast, and then one for the chomp. Meaning that you can do a quick blast -> a charged chomp at higher percents. You lose stun time and damage for startup speed. Pretty useful.

Additionally, Neutral B works beautifully with Side B. If the opponent is hit with a semi or full-charged blast at higher percents, they are pretty much done for. The ground version is nice for damage, but the aerial one is fast and kills. Tons of fun applications can be had with these two moves.

Speaking of Side B, if you press the button fast enough, you can actually pin the ground much earlier as opposed to waiting for Corrin's hop. This makes the move a bit safer to use. The timing is strict, but I highly reccomend practicing it.

Edit: Actually, a really easy way to do this is to slide your thumb from the special button to the attack button.

Lastly, Side B has weird properties when used while jumping in the middle of platforms. It makes Corrin immediately warp to the top of the platform. Could be useful.

This character is so fun.


Still testing Corrin/Bayonetta to see if I find anything else of interest.

 

[TDK]

the only problem with Corrin's bair is because of the way hurtbox shifting works is it does seem to move them closer to the blastline because of the giant wings. Not actually sure if they're intangible or not.

 

[JesterJaded]

I know I shouldn't be doing this, but just to rile some people up and why not? It's Bayonetta and Corrin's release!

Yay! More ladders of doom!

Welp.

Better lab .

Edit: in other news, we finally got the nerfs to top tiers we were looking for; the S tier queens now kill each other like 1% earlier.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You're forgetting to mention that this Nana also can't do anything when put into hitstun until she lands, meaning that she dies when knocked off stage.

Only to respawn with perfect health 13 seconds later meaning if i took only 2 seconds to kill Luma, Rosalina would get 4 in a minute's time.

Add in: Now let's suppose that the typical attack that launches Luma does 15%. 15 x 4 = 60% that could have hit Rosalina but didn't and you can see why something like this is such a big deal, especially when Luma itself has 50% health.

 

[DunnoBro]

Bayonetta seems to lack any real flaws aside from dragon punches and her questionable air dodge (though she does have potent landing and escape options) She has everything a top tier needs:

Consistent easy bake combos
Neutral options (side-b cross-up and lasers on all her moves)
Recovery
Both consistent kill confirms (fthrow and frame traps) and cheesy ones (witch time and stairway combos)

She does seem a bit awkward and I can imagine raw rushdown characters like the mario bros giving her trouble, but she's definitely very comparable to sheik in many ways I feel.

 

[FullMoon]

Welp.

Better lab .

Edit: in other news, we finally got the nerfs to top tiers we were looking for; the S tier queens now kill each other like 1% earlier.

Out of curiosity I decided to test Greninja on Bayo's Up-B

And yep, he can SSHC. I don't think he can escape the last hit at higher percentages though, at low percentages he's kinda sent flying pretty far by the last hit lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bayonetta seems to lack any real flaws aside from dragon punches and her questionable air dodge (though she does have potent landing and escape options) She has everything a top tier needs:

Consistent easy bake combos
Neutral options (side-b cross-up and lasers on all her moves)
Recovery
Both consistent kill confirms (fthrow and frame traps) and cheesy ones (witch time and stairway combos)

She does seem a bit awkward and I can imagine raw rushdown characters like the mario bros giving her trouble, but she's definitely very comparable to sheik in many ways I feel.

You forgot about the fact that she, like Sheik and ZSS, laughs at the disadvantage state thanks to dive kicks and witch time. Its often simply too risky too keep pressuring her from what I have played.

We just might have our third queen.

Bout damn time.

 

[DE235]

We just might have our third queen.

Bout damn time.

Don't you mean fourth queen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rosa is a goddess.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

As far as I can tell, Bat Within activates off airdodges (and spotdodges for what it's worth) starting from frame 1. That's fundamentally extraordinarily powerful if I'm right (which I'm pretty sure I am); it means a lot of juggle situations that are advantageous against every other character will be unsafe to pursue against Bayonetta alone, and it means the pure concept of the landing trap is never a guarantee against her either. I see some real downsides to how she works, but the upside is huge.

I really like Corrin, but I don't know if I can accept that "why can't I move in the air" life. Corrin is definitely at least decent; that nair alone is better than several low tiers. Beyond "at least decent", I'll need more time to sort things out and test...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As far as I can tell, Bat Within activates off airdodges (and spotdodges for what it's worth) starting from frame 1.

I've also gotten it to activate on rolls.

The trailer shows this too.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Something important to note about corrin is that he has one of the fastest dash --> sheilds in the game (I think its at least frame 8) which is really useful against projectile based characters.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've also gotten it to activate on rolls.

The trailer shows this too.

I've gotten it to active off rolls too, but it's not frame 1. If I have Little Mac jab and Bayonetta roll on the same frame in training mode, Bayonetta gets hit (whereas if Bayonetta spotdodges or airdodges, Bat Within activates). I actually can't get it to activate pre-roll invincibility at all in training mode (assuming rolls are invincible starting on f4 for her like for everyone else); I don't know precisely how it works for her rolls, but I do know it's fundamentally not nearly as powerful as it is for the spotdodge and airdodge which seem to be frame 1 evasion options.

 

[Dabuz]

When are we going to discuss banning bayonetta?

 

[Latias]

When are we going to discuss banning bayonetta?

I actually wouldn't be surprised based on first impressions.

 

[DunnoBro]

You forgot about the fact that she, like Sheik and ZSS, laughs at the disadvantage state thanks to dive kicks and witch time. Its often simply too risky too keep pressuring her from what I have played.

We just might have our third queen.

Bout damn time.

Her recovery and actual landing isn't nearly as good as theirs so she does retain an actual disadvantage state, but witch time kind of compensates for that in other fields.

But essentially, all her moves scream either "absurdly good" like nair and sidespecial, or "quirky but good" like uair and neutral special.

Also, greninja's shadow sneak cancel is the ultimate counter to Bayonetta sideb strings. He goes at the god damned perfect spot.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've gotten bat time off of rolls, only the beginning though. Kinda interesting against rapid jabs I guess. Eh, I dunno. Bayo's starup is trashy and dodges are bad outside of bat time. She's got literally everything else to compete but I'd need to see some seriously good play with her before I even consider her to be even mid tier. Actually doesn't seem incredibly polarizing so far.

Corrin's just blah. Stabbing the ground's basically useless in neutral because of how far you fly with the kicks and there's some serious lag trying to jump out. U and Dthrow both kill for some reason, but fairly late. Mobility is bad, especially that walk. Bleh. Edgeguarding feels mediocre because of how hard it is to cover different options since his Dsmash doesn't cover the ledge. Seems to have no early kill options, and I mean none. Nada, zipo, zilch. Okay, sure get a tipper smash/DL and that's something. But is anybody really dumb enough to just stand in that small sweetspot area? Most characters are just going to be in his face all the time so what's he going to do about it before his throws kill?

Also, no bias, Pit beats Corrin since Corrin can't spam Bairs to recover because arrows are a thing. *sorta serious*

 

[bc1910]

My orginal prediction was that Bayonetta would be broken and Corrin would be pretty tame. Looks like I was right on both fronts (tbf I was wrong about Cloud looking meh, but 2/3 ain't bad).

Please note that Corrin's Uthrow actually kills early for a throw by S4 standards. It's slightly stronger than Greninja's, which is around the 7th strongest Uthrow in the game (160 kill, no rage). Throws don't kill all that early in this game.

DunnoBro summed things up with Bayo pretty well. She lacks meaningful weaknesses. Crappy rolls are the only thing that really jumps out. Her disadvantage state is sorta there but it's about as good as you can get without BF or FJ-level bullsh*t.

Greninja's shadow sneak cancel is STILL. IN. THE. GAME. and is the perfect counter to her most devastating combos. He will probably have one of the best MUs against her if not the best, as he seems to hold his own in neutral and advantage (Hydro Pump can really screw up her recovery) with a significantly better disadvantage state than anyone else in that MU.

Dare we start to believe something I stringently denied from the beginning - SSHC will survive all the patches?

If so, Greninja is the best at something - escaping and countering ladder combos. And that's a damn good thing to be the best at.

 

[Jaxas]

Even though opinions could wildly change within the next couple of days, what do you guys think are the five most BTFO match ups in this game aside from Rosalina vs Ness? For the sake of relevancy, let's just leave out bottom tier characters unless you believe a bottom tier has a strong advantage against someone higher up. I'm interested in what other people have to say before I post my own.

So I know this is super late, but HOLY **** is Lucario VS Cloud bad.

Lucario can't approach super well, VS Cloud can charge limit.
Lucario doesn't have the best options to deal with range, lolBusterSword.

But more importantly that any of that...
If Cloud gets Lucario to around 30% and never tries to hit him ever again with anything except Finishing Touch, then Lucario can't really kill him

As for more recent topics...
Can't Corrin's Down-Angled Fsmash cover the 2Frame? Because if so, then that's a pretty ****ing good 'replacement' for normal edgeguarding.
(Also, jumping off the stage and using SideB to stick to the wall through where the 2frame is would also be good).

Lastly, from what I hear Bayonetta doesn't really have throw combos, so theoretically you can shield a lot around her; kind of like people do against Cloud, for example.

Anyways, back to the lab...

 

[Eisen]

I don't see why people are saying Bayonetta is good. I understand that, at the least, she has a learning curve, but I don't understand why she's seen as so incredible already. Damage output sucks, her combos are repetitive and her mixups are awkward. Maybe it's because I suck or because I'm playing online, but I haven't really gotten a lot of combos. As soon as I try something, the opponent just jumps and there's not really crap Bayonetta can seem to do in time.

Haven't played Corrin but they seem obviously the better DLC fighter. Corrin is yet another "better Shulk", imo. Like seriously, why do they insist on giving us characters who have Shulk-like moves (F-smash) and similar range, but have much less cooldown. Also, why the ever-loving christ does Corrin's side B kill at 110... as if it weren't a super-good, low risk high reward move already, it's gotta kill too.