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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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TDK

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My biggest issue with Bayonetta is her slow moves [and crappy rolls, but whatever]. They give her a lot of trouble trying to fight up close, and depending on DI, she can't combo off of throws very well, which leaves her with Side-B, but who isn't going to notice someone flying at you from halfway across the stage. Additionally, gounded Side-B -> witch Twist -> after burner kick -> jump witch twist doesn't kill that often, though it does put on a lot of percent. Bayonetta has a lot of trouble with short characters or rushdown characters, and it seems like sword characters [:4myfriends: :4corrinf:] can give her issues as well.
 

Ulevo

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This recent patch has been interesting for Meta Knight. The seemingly trivial 1 point weight nerfs to Sheik, Zero Suit and Rosalina might beneficially impact Meta Knight's true combo %'s. I will need to test tonight. That said, Umbra Clock Tower has Battlefield's ceiling, so depending on the format and how many bans are issued this could be a detriment.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Bayonetta's long start up on some moves bugs me a bit.

Kind of curious how consistent the "ladder of death" is with her and how often she can land that. Witch time when fresh and used at high percents is death I suppose, then again in this game a lot of counters are sort of like that. Her using it too often makes it way worse for her.

Mostly, I am interested in what happens in practice when she is used at this point. Given how DI might factor into her stuff and how much people can find ways to play against her when she goes in deep.
 

NotLiquid

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A member here brought this up in the Bayonetta social thread but DTilt into USmash registers as a combo on Sheik at around 75-90%. Without DI this combo KOs at Final Destination when starting it at around about 80% when I tried it, though that's also with rage unaccounted for. It's not a Diddy-level reliable set up since it's probably possible to DI out of it if the DTilt connects from too far, but since her DTilt is still really damn good this seems like one of her much safer options for potential kills.
 
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wedl!!

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Saying "who isn't going to notice Side-B" is theorycrafting super hard. It's like the arguments that ZSS grab is super reactable.

Also that's not her only combo option. Witch Twist OOS is basically broken. If you whiff anything you're taking like 30%-40%. Dtilt is probably her best ground move and Uair is amazing. Fair 1/2 do stuff. Jab 2 can lead to mixups.
 

Solfiner

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I could see Bayo in a similar situation as Ryu; a few dedicated mains that can take her to the next level but other than that we wont see too much of her. We'll see though, she might end up being pretty common.
 

meleebrawler

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I doubt it, the platforms go under the stage & it's easy to camp on them in general.
Town & City and Duck Hunt both have camp-friendly platforms and they're fine.

If anything UBC is just another terrible stage for Mac.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Not to mention that you don't want to be on those bottom platforms when they leave play.

I think the only valid concern for UCT's legality is the fact that the spawning platforms can be utilized for unavoidable (and very odd) stage spikes. Other than that, I think it's a fine CP.

Smooth Criminal
 
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wedl!!

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If Peach's Castle isn't legal I doubt UCT would be.

Their problems are fairly similar, although Clock Tower is tamer by comparison.
 
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meleebrawler

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If Peach's Castle isn't legal I doubt UCT would be.

Their problems are fairly similar.
On Peach's Castle the obstacles are present 100% of the time AND has gigantic blast zones making stocks take forever (the bumper doesn't help either). Not nearly as significant as on UCT.
 
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wedl!!

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They're still there, and the legality of the stage depends on how lenient TO's are going to be on that.

Considering how conservative the current stagelist is IDK. Doubt it will be legal in most places.
 

EnhaloTricks

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At TGC6, coming up in Houston this weekend, it will be legal. We'll see how often it actually gets played on, however. That and the only two people I've played on it with didn't like how the background was so distracting.
 

TDK

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At TGC6, coming up in Houston this weekend, it will be legal. We'll see how often it actually gets played on, however. That and the only two people I've played on it with didn't like how the background was so distracting.
I actually haven't noticed it, but Town and City also moves and changes background semifrequently, so does delfino, so there's that.
 

jespoke

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If Peach's Castle isn't legal I doubt UCT would be.

Their problems are fairly similar, although Clock Tower is tamer by comparison.
What makes that stage the point of comparison? Clock Tower has nothing like the barriers and bumper on it aside from a solid platform that sticks around for a bit.
 

Goombo

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If anything UBC is just another terrible stage for Mac.
Why should it be? All of the "camping"-plattforms leave after a short ammount of time and it's even Final Destination for a while.

Plus, the lower plattforms could help his recovery.
 

TDK

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I think ZeRo got Bayonetta perfectly. She's awkward to use and doesn't feel like a smash character.

IE: Don't expect any results from Bayonetta for a while.
 

Pazzo.

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From what I've seen, Bayo's fair looks potent as a combo starter. Is this true?

I'm actually glad Bayo doesn't feel like a Smash character. Diversity is good, especially if said diversity gets exposure in tournaments.
 
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Rizen

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Q, how do the 1 point weight nerfs to Sheik/ZSS/Rosa work with range and damage scaling? Ulevo Ulevo mentioned they make it easier for MK to combo them. Might that apply to other characters?
 

Solfiner

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From what I've seen, Bayo's fair looks potent as a combo starter. Is this true?

I'm actually glad Bayo doesn't feel like a Smash character. Diversity is good, especially if said diversity gets exposure in tournaments.
Yes it is, it can even combo into itself.
 

Thinkaman

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A slight reduction in weight is the equivalent of every other character having a slight increase on KBG on every move in their moveset.
 

C0rvus

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On Umbra Clock Tower: If your stage list has Delfino in it, I would say replace it with Umbra. It has fewer instances of campable layouts and walk offs overall. For more conservative stage lists, consider it as a counter pick, but more than likely just ban it.

On the new empress:
Bat Within really bothers me. Bayonetta can escape juggles and turn them around. This character has such an infuriating design.
Also, as far as I can tell, using bullet arts doesn't affect landing lag. Nair still SH auto cancels if you use the guns. (Actually this is wrong, nair is just nearly lagless.) This would be better if the bullets did damage immediately, but you need to hit a couple to do 1%.
Fair is cool. I can picture the pressure you can exert on an opponent on a platform. Approaching fair > Hold to shoot, then react. If they try to relaliate, continue into fair2 and fair3.
Bayonetta seems very good at anti-air, which is good because her grounded moves are largely her combo starters.
 
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Nobie

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The only thing that gets me about Bayonetta right now is that her bullet arts were touted as having no knockback, but they have knockback at point blank range, similar to Mega Man. Makes it a pain to approach it does.
 

Rizen

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So the weight reduction shouldn't affect low % combos and will move some higher % combos down in damage a bit? This could be nice for characters who Dthrow>Uair/ladder kill when fighting the queens. Robin might benefit in those MUs (?)
 
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Y2Kay

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I think these nerfs where very clever making the top tiers die Earlier. How much earlier is my question. Is this 5% lower? 10% lower? Does anyone know?

I think how much this matter kind of depends on that. I can't lab it right now, unfortunately.

:150:
 

Rizen

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Ulevo

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What people should actually be talking about for Bayonetta is 1: what is her frame data like, and 2: are these zero to death combos reliable and DI oriented.

I fail to see why this is not concerning to people.
 

TheHypnotoad

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My first impression on Bayonetta was that she sucked. Difficult to combo with and has very few reliable kill moves outside of Witch Time (in fact, her only one is bair). Additionally, she gets almost nothing off of grab, which has almost no range anyway, and the only thing close to a kill throw is fthrow, which kills at like 150% at the ledge. Her smash attacks are slow as balls, and they have great knockback scaling, but barely any base knockback, so if your opponent is below 100% they aren't gonna be sent very far at all from an uncharged smash attack. Also, HER SMASH ATTACKS HAVE PROJECTILE PROPERTIES! Pretty much ANYTHING will clank with them and cancel them out. Seriously, my friend cancelled out Bayonetta's usmash with Corrin ftilt. And her recovery is Little Mac tier if she has no double jump.

Then I realized that she actually has some pretty sick combos. Side B to up B to side B to side B to bair is guaranteed at low percents, and does a ton of damage. And now people are posting all these 0 to deaths she has (although they were done on training dummies with no DI, so whether or not they ACTUALLY work has yet to be seen). And even though her only kill move outside of Witch Time is bair, it is a very good kill move. And of course Witch Time itself is insanely good if you can get a read, and is pretty much a free kill if your opponent is above 100%.

My final conclusion is that she is mid tier, potentially high mid.

What people should actually be talking about for Bayonetta is 1: what is her frame data like,
I don't have the numbers, but her frame data seems perfectly average. Nothing very fast and nothing very slow (besides her smash attacks, which are slower than Ike's and Dedede's).
 
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Plain Yogurt

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What people should actually be talking about for Bayonetta is 1: what is her frame data like, and 2: are these zero to death combos reliable and DI oriented.

I fail to see why this is not concerning to people.
This bit in particular. We've had the game for a year now people; enough with the "look at the sick combo I did on this training dummy" videos. Bayo clearly has combos but are they consistent?
 

Terotrous

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So far, my initial impressions of Bayonetta are extremely bad, like bottom 10 bad.

The biggest issue, by far, is that her roll frame data is Brawl Samus bad. You literally cannot ever roll as Bayonetta unless it's to avoid Ike FSmash (and even then you might not have time to punish). This likely gives her the worst overall defense in the game, since your opponents can be much more reckless with certain attacks because they know you don't have roll as a valid option. Her counter somewhat makes up for this but is much higher commitment.

Secondly, while her umbra twist combos are cool, so far it doesn't seem like she has many great ways to combo into them. They also don't kill at any reasonable percent, I landed an umbra twist way above the stage at like 140% on Robin and it didn't kill.

All of her Smash attacks are really slow, and she has very few other valid kill moves. She can't generally whiff punish much of anything with her smash attacks because they have so much startup, so most of your kills are going to come from a well timed counter or a back air at really high percents.

Hopefully I'm missing something, but she just seems downright bad. Combos don't kill, overall damage output is bad, kill moves are hard to land, and those rolls. God, the rolls.


Corrin is way, way better. I'm not 100% sold on the pin move just yet, but he has solid fundamentals in any case. Marth with ZSS's paralyser? What's not to love?
 
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TheHypnotoad

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The biggest issue, by far, is that her roll frame data is Brawl Samus bad. You literally cannot ever roll as Bayonetta unless it's to avoid Ike FSmash (and even then you might not have time to punish). This likely gives her the worst overall defense in the game, since your opponents can be much more reckless with certain attacks because they know you don't have roll as a valid option. Her counter somewhat makes up for this but is much higher commitment.
Bat Within kind of cancels this out, though. If you attack Bayonetta during the vulnerable frames of her roll animation, she takes half damage, no knockback, and teleports behind you.

She's still vulnerable to grabs, though.
 
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Emblem Lord

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A member here brought this up in the Bayonetta social thread but DTilt into USmash registers as a combo on Sheik at around 75-90%. Without DI this combo KOs at Final Destination when starting it at around about 80% when I tried it, though that's also with rage unaccounted for. It's not a Diddy-level reliable set up since it's probably possible to DI out of it if the DTilt connects from too far, but since her DTilt is still really damn good this seems like one of her much safer options for potential kills.
This is a true confirm on a good chunk of the cast actually. I have been testing it. DI shortens the percent window it works however. But its still scary.
 

Rizen

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What people should actually be talking about for Bayonetta is 1: what is her frame data like, and 2: are these zero to death combos reliable and DI oriented.

I fail to see why this is not concerning to people.
Her frame data's not good but the combos seem scary.
@Lavani said:

I'll just dump all my notes here:
jab1 9f 1%
jab combo 1% + 2% + 2% + multi + 6% (13% min)

dash attack 15f 10%

ftilt 12f 3% + 3% + 8% - may be punishable between hits on shield
utilt 7f 5%
dtilt 7f 6%

fsmash 20f 16% fist 14% arm, sweetspot kills Kamui at 87% from Umbra starting position
usmash 18f 17%, kills 103%
dsmash 20f 5% bayo's foot, 28f 15% wicked weave

4f jumpsquat
nair 9f 8%, 10f landing
fair 8f 3%+3%+6%, 14f landing
bair 12f 13%, 12f landing, kills 120%
uair 9-16f going back-to-front, 9%, 12f landing
dair 7% drop 5% landing impact (landing kills 105%?!), 29f landing

grab 7f
dash grab 9f
pivot grab 10f

pummel 1.5% + 1.5%
fthrow 10%
bthrow 9%
uthrow 7%
dthrow 8%

neutralB 18f 1.x% per shot (uncharged)
sideB 15f 9% ground, 8f 6% air
upB 4f 8% (7% air), isn't going to kill without carrying off the top
downB 5f?
 

Terotrous

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Bat Within kind of cancels this out, though. If you attack Bayonetta during the vulnerable frames of her roll animation, she takes half damage, no knockback, and teleports behind you.

She's still vulnerable to grabs, though.
It seems like bat within only activates during the startup frames of her roll and dodge animations, during the endlag she seems to get hit normally. And the endlag frames are where you're more likely to be hit.

In any case, I'm doing a little better by simply using Down B any time I might be tempted to shield (her shield grab is also awful, so really she has almost no incentive to ever block except vs projectiles), but it feels super weird and clunky. Also, you have to pretend you don't have Smash attacks. It doesn't matter how many times I think "well, it's got to be fast enough to punish THIS", it never is.

On the plus side, the reward off her counter is utterly insane. Partially charged smash attack for countering an Ftilt? Madness.
 
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TheHypnotoad

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It seems like bat within only activates during the startup frames of her roll and dodge animations, during the endlag she seems to get hit normally. And the endlag frames are where you're more likely to be hit.
Is that true? I still have almost no idea how that move works. Bayonetta's entire moveset is very confusing and unintuitive. I still haven't figured out how to make the aerial side B go downwards on command, either.
 

FullMoon

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Bat Within activates at the end of a roll, I just had a Pit hit me with the back hit of D-Smash while I was rolling towards him and it was activated.
 

Fatmanonice

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One thing that really interests me about Bayonetta is how reliably she can add on chip damage because so many of her attacks have Bullet Arts to where she can hit people from across the stage or up in the air with stray bullets. In high pressure games, every % counts and this ability definitely gives her an upper hand, in my opinion.
 
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