Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Swamp Sensei]

I dunno.

I'm not feeling the Bayonetta Ban thing.

Like... She strikes me as another Ryu.

Really good and has amazing combos, but not as good.

Like... her combos don't chain as well and get no where near the amount of reward that Ryu's do.

Witch Time is a thing yes, but it requires the hardest of reads. I think it's actually the strictest of the counters.

 

[ARGHETH]

Haven't played Corrin but they seem obviously the better DLC fighter.

Ehh...he has a not very good run speed, bad air speed, and mediocre recovery. I wouldn't say they're "obviously" the better fighter; actually, I'm not entirely sure they're better at all.

Also, why the ever-loving christ does Corrin's side B kill at 110... as if it weren't a super-good, low risk high reward move already, it's gotta kill too.

Because it has a tiny sweetspot. Like seriously, try landing that thing consistently.

 

[Eisen]

Ehh...he has a not very good run speed, bad air speed, and mediocre recovery. I wouldn't say they're "obviously" the better fighter; actually, I'm not entirely sure they're better at all.

Because it has a tiny sweetspot. Like seriously, try landing that thing consistently.

Wasn't that hard when I tried it. Easier to sweetspot that than probably something like Samus' fsmash. At least Corrin's side b is relatively safe--you can just go the other way if your spacing is bad or whatever.

 

[Kurri ★]

What's so bad about Bayo that she needs to be banned? She's good, but I don't see her overpowering Sheik or ZSS.

 

[HoSmash4]

Pretty sure Dabuz's comment was tongue in cheek.

Lets judge when bayonetta is fully optimised, but day one 0-death combos being shown is.. scary to say the least

 

[Rizen]

Rosa/Sheik/ZSS lost 1 unit of weight. It's nice they at least got a small nerf. I wish Link had gotten some frame buffs

I haven't actually played the patched version yet but Bayo's frame data looks comparable to Link's. If it is she might not be as good as she first seems.

 

[Smog Frog]

her frame data is decent enough. what really scares me is that witch twist is a decent oos option, so you better not hit her shield with the wrong move or you're eating a clean 50% or dying.

 

[Rizen]

Bayo's witch time doesn't affect the user of projectile attacks. I wonder if she'll end up a zoning to combo character who has trouble when she's rushed down or out camped.

 

[DunnoBro]

It doesn't seem like it really kills from the ground that consistently. And her frame data is barely passable. Her jab feels like frame 4 but it has ridiculous range and hurtbox contortion going on, very good at connecting too. If it wasn't for her jab she'd be significantly worse.

Her tilts are "meh" they each either have bad frame data or range, but they all set up for stuff. Jab really is her only good option up close. It's a great jab though so not too big a deal.

Grounded bullet arts seem pretty worthless, there's so much endlag on the moves they're connected to and the lack of range doesn't really allow any decent usage.

Honestly the only big thing bullet arts bring is to nair. It's okay on uair/dair but not character defining.

Her neutral seems largely based on trying to keep the opponent grounded for grabs/cross-ups. Bullet climax accomplishes this beautifully, but fails to serve the normal purpose of a projectile which is to force an approach.

Kill confirms:
Landing uair > Bair (Can be set-up from SH bair. Uair can come out before landing)
Aerial Witch Twist > Afterburner Kick > Afterburner Kick (if necessary/possible) > Uair (uair is traditionally the only way to kill off a specials combo)
Downward Angle Afterburner Kick > Fair Combo/Nair by the ledge (Or set up for an aerial witch twist)

And a lot of situations where if you air dodge, you die. She's... probably got the best anti-dragon punch and air dodge smashes in the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

Guess who doesn't care about Bayonetta's 0-deaths?



I frickin' love this character

 

[Kurri ★]

What does Greninja have that allows it to avoid Bayo's 0-deaths?

 

[Rizen]

Lavani posted some Bayo frame data but idk where he got it from.

Honestly, really good. That's the one aspect of her frame data that's great.

I'll just dump all my notes here:
jab1 9f 1%
jab combo 1% + 2% + 2% + multi + 6% (13% min)

dash attack 15f 10%

ftilt 12f 3% + 3% + 8% - may be punishable between hits on shield
utilt 7f 5%
dtilt 7f 6%

fsmash 20f 16% fist 14% arm, sweetspot kills Kamui at 87% from Umbra starting position
usmash 18f 17%, kills 103%
dsmash 20f 5% bayo's foot, 28f 15% wicked weave

4f jumpsquat
nair 9f 8%, 10f landing
fair 8f 3%+3%+6%, 14f landing
bair 12f 13%, 12f landing, kills 120%
uair 9-16f going back-to-front, 9%, 12f landing
dair 7% drop 5% landing impact (landing kills 105%?!), 29f landing

grab 7f
dash grab 9f
pivot grab 10f

pummel 1.5% + 1.5%
fthrow 10%
bthrow 9%
uthrow 7%
dthrow 8%

neutralB 18f 1.x% per shot (uncharged)
sideB 15f 9% ground, 8f 6% air
upB 4f 8% (7% air), isn't going to kill without carrying off the top
downB 5f?[/spoiler]

If jab's frame 9 and her fastest ground moves are frame 7 I can see her having trouble vs rush downs. Her air frame data isn't good either.


Can someone please link to he 0-death combos?

 

[bc1910]

Witch Time is a major deterrent against rushing Bayo down. Use the wrong move at the wrong time and you're dying at 50. The only character I'm confident to say should beat her (on average) with pure rushdown/CQC is Luigi. Fox lacks grab combos, Mario struggles, even Sheik probably doesn't have the damage output for it.

I've had the most success by camping carefully at mid/long range, and using the projectiles to create openings. As has been pointed out, WT doesn't affect the projectile user. Shorter characters who can avoid Bullet Climax grounded are significantly better at this; Pikachu and Greninja are the best out of who I've tried, because they're short enough to get in that mid-range. Again, even Sheik struggles a little; she can constantly fire single needles but can't get close enough for reliable follow-ups since she's tall.

What does Greninja have that allows it to avoid Bayo's 0-deaths?

Aerial Shadow Sneak can cancel light hitstun. When Greninja gets hit by her aerial Side B, he can Shadow Sneak behind her and punish her on hit with his most powerful KO move. He can also escape parts of Witch Twist and her normal combos.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea I was playing the luigi MU primarily with Bayo and it's really scary. If it wasn't for her jab that MU would be totally undoable. But, it gets him off her and sets up edgeguards which she's pretty good at vs luigi. Off-stage bullet climax, nair, and dair cover a lot of luigi's options.

Surprised jab is frame 9, it must just be the range on it that makes it so good. It just stuffs luigi in the zone he wants to be (about to dash grab)

But yea, greninja's definitely a problem MU. Damage output is neutered and neutral is harder.

 

[Jamurai]

At first glance, Corrin seems like a classic "solid mid tier". Decent all round with some good tools which he can make use of.

These tools include neutral- and side-B, Fair, Uair, and his extremely powerful counter which forces you to be careful when you're at kill %. Jab is something I haven't seen talked about but is very quick considering its range, something I think Corrins will be using a lot, especially as jab1+2 into stuff seems like a thing. Also, Utilt seems extremely functional as an anti-air.

His neutral game seems pretty good, you have to respect his projectile and he reminds me of Wolf in that his projectile has a separate melee part to the move. AC aerials, his great jab and solid tilts, all disjointed, allow him to poke and counterpoke well. His reward isn't amazing but is not completely lacking either, the dmg per hit is good and he isn't short of strings and setups.

He has some lacklustre traits such as recovery and speed (although max walk speed and foxtrot are both very good). Also the kill setups found so far seem to be readily DIable (ie. not reliable) and not that easily confirmed. All of these are obviously very exploitable flaws at high level play.

I can see the hype dying down and Corrin settling in mid tier (at about DK level). I'm happy to be wrong of course.

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On a different note, I invite you all to see this post which is a work of art.
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[Luigi player]

As far as I can tell, Bat Within activates off airdodges (and spotdodges for what it's worth) starting from frame 1. That's fundamentally extraordinarily powerful if I'm right (which I'm pretty sure I am); it means a lot of juggle situations that are advantageous against every other character will be unsafe to pursue against Bayonetta alone, and it means the pure concept of the landing trap is never a guarantee against her either. I see some real downsides to how she works, but the upside is huge.

I really like Corrin, but I don't know if I can accept that "why can't I move in the air" life. Corrin is definitely at least decent; that nair alone is better than several low tiers. Beyond "at least decent", I'll need more time to sort things out and test...

Yeah it's frame 1. So it seems like you can't hit Bayonetta out of her dodge-startup, which is pretty amazing. For some compensation at least her roll dodges seem super laggy though...
Will be interesting from what combos she can escape with this. If you activate it she freezes for a little bit though, and still gets airdodge landinglag from what I saw, so it's not like it's free for her to get out of everything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

And now shinobi amphibian has a solid place in the meta as a bayo counter pick.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Okay here's the tl;dr on Corrin
-He's slow
-Back air is good. Basically ROB's Bair
-Nair is not as good as it looked. Landing lag and doesnt AC well. Falling Nair combos into stuff tho a la Diddy
-Fair is decent. Weird angle though. It's not a god edgeguard move because of that.
-Uair is Lucina's uair. Falling Uair combos, it kills at high percents. Decent.
-Dair isn't that useful, tbh.

The only reliable combo out of neutral B that I've found is tipper Dragon Lunge. Which kills. I like that.

Dragon acent kills, Uair kills, Counter surge kills... Low ceiling stages are good for Corrin. Side B without the lunge can ledge cancel, which can be used for ledge trumps.

Overall, decent advantage state, workable neutral (Bair, neutral B, pivot Fsmash, tilts), but a bad disadvantage with that recovery and no move fast enough to break many combos. Nothing too special. He might have some niche use competitively, like Doc. But I don't see much in this guy, other than he's really fun to play.

 

[bc1910]

And now shinobi amphibian has a solid place in the meta as a bayo counter pick.

Funny how just after we discuss how there's nothing exceptional about him, his unique hitstun cancel actually becomes useful.

Considering he escapes the deadliest ladders in the game (ZSS, MK, Bayo) and probably CPs Bayo he could be really solid in the coming meta.

 

[Lag Chan]

I pretty much agree with the placements of all my characters of choice. Bowser being the second best super heavy, Mac at the bottom of low and Dedede at the top of bottom. I could go on about a few things but I'm far less experienced with a lot of the higher tiers so I'll leave it at that.
I can probably see Dedede getting even lower in future given how Bayo and Corrin look like they make mincemeat of him plus how he still isn't getting any buffs despite his poor results.

 

[BSP]

So I know a 1% damage change is a big deal for moves. How big are the weight changes for our queens?

I didn't get the two new characters. Do I need to be camping ledges for entire matches? I'm seeing mentions of D1 zero deaths...

 

[wedl!!]

The fact that Ike is getting buffed still is actually kind of poetic. No mater how dumb he gets he's still doomed to lower mid tier in Japan.

Also I really like that Bayonetta can legit say no to disadvantage. Now I have to think even less when getting hit when falling down. Thanks, Focus Attack. You were my training wheels to skipping out on taking damage.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Not sure if this is known, but Corrin runs so much slower after a turnaround. Like there's not any momentum whatsoever.

Weird.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This patch was severely underwhelming with the buffs/nerfs. Maybe it's just me, but I get more hype from the buffs and needs than new characters. I highly doubt changing weight will do anything significant and nerfing Bowser is really questionable.

 

[jespoke]

Okay here's the tl;dr on Corrin
-He's slow
-Back air is good. Basically ROB's Bair
-Nair is not as good as it looked. Landing lag and doesnt AC well. Falling Nair combos into stuff tho a la Diddy
-Fair is decent. Weird angle though. It's not a god edgeguard move because of that.
-Uair is Lucina's uair. Falling Uair combos, it kills at high percents. Decent.
-Dair isn't that useful, tbh.

The only reliable combo out of neutral B that I've found is tipper Dragon Lunge. Which kills. I like that.

Dragon acent kills, Uair kills, Counter surge kills... Low ceiling stages are good for Corrin. Side B without the lunge can ledge cancel, which can be used for ledge trumps.

Overall, decent advantage state, workable neutral (Bair, neutral B, pivot Fsmash, tilts), but a bad disadvantage with that recovery and no move fast enough to break many combos. Nothing too special. He might have some niche use competitively, like Doc. But I don't see much in this guy, other than he's really fun to play.

He can also kill tall characters horizontally by Grab Releasing into Side-B, by doing the quick pin you can get by imputing it fast enough.
Now that i think about it, this is probably his best option out of a grab when he cant killthrow yet.

 

[Nah]

Not sure if this is known, but Corrin runs so much slower after a turnaround. Like there's not any momentum whatsoever.

Weird.

I noticed that yesterday too. maybe because no shoes They aren't the only one where it's like that I think. I'm pretty sure that ZSS also runs a lot more slowly at first after a turnaround.

 

[Radical Larry]

I noticed that yesterday too. maybe because no shoes They aren't the only one where it's like that I think. I'm pretty sure that ZSS also runs a lot more slowly at first after a turnaround.

Little Mac, Falcon and Sonic do it. The more speed you have, the worse your turnaround speed is going to be. Characters like Link and Falco aren't particularly affected by it, if at all.

This patch was severely underwhelming with the buffs/nerfs. Maybe it's just me, but I get more hype from the buffs and needs than new characters. I highly doubt changing weight will do anything significant and nerfing Bowser is really questionable.

Changing the weight of the top girls will make them get KO'd earlier, especially Rosalina, who is a giant hitbox.
And as with Bowser...he still can get kill confirms on characters. All the character needs to be at is 60% to 80% depending on weight.

Oh, and I'll be posting my thoughts on Link soon.

 

[wedl!!]

Yeah, it will get them killed earlier... by like 2%.

It's basically nothing.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yeah, it will get them killed earlier... by like 2%.

It's basically nothing.

Actually, with a character like Link or Bowser, they might die around 9% to 10% earlier.
This does kind of affect the combo ability of characters, not by much though.

 

[TurboLink]

I don't see why people are saying Bayonetta is good. I understand that, at the least, she has a learning curve, but I don't understand why she's seen as so incredible already. Damage output sucks, her combos are repetitive and her mixups are awkward. Maybe it's because I suck or because I'm playing online, but I haven't really gotten a lot of combos. As soon as I try something, the opponent just jumps and there's not really crap Bayonetta can seem to do in time.

What does having repetitive combos have to do with a character's viability? Why does it matter as long as they are effective?

 

[Caryslan]

The fact that Ike is getting buffed still is actually kind of poetic. No mater how dumb he gets he's still doomed to lower mid tier in Japan.

Also I really like that Bayonetta can legit say no to disadvantage. Now I have to think even less when getting hit when falling down. Thanks, Focus Attack. You were my training wheels to skipping out on taking damage.

Is Ike even popular in Japan? I always got the impression that most of his fanbase and the people who use him are from the West, while Japan preferred the lords like Marth.

I don't mind his placement on the tier list. He's good and a viable character, but he does still have some nagging flaws that still hold him back.

But the tier list makes it very clear, he's the best Fire Emblem character in the game. Marth and Lucina are both in garbage tier, Roy is not much better(despite many people saying that he was better then Ike when he first came back) and Robin is below Ike.

The wild card of course is Corrin, but from what I've seen Ike still seems to be the better character. I think Corrin and Robin will be fighting over their place in the mid-tier(unless Corrin is like Roy where he seems great at first but then falls once some weaknesses are exposed.)

I can live with Ike being a lower-mid tier character. Unless they gave him speed and frame data like Cloud has as well as a proper projectile, he's going to have trouble in a metagame where the top characters are once again speedy combo-oriented characters with tons of options.

 

[C0rvus]

Just a note but both Bayonetta and Corrin can short hop air dodge, so Bayo should never roll. That thing is horrid.

 

[Jandlebars]

Just a note but both Bayonetta and Corrin can short hop air dodge, so Bayo should never roll. That thing is horrid.

Not horrid, just horribly stylish.

But yes, Bayo's rolls are pretty bad. Experience with other characters that utilise SHAD frequently, like Samus, will help ease the transition.

And though it's not truly reliable, there's always the potential for SHAD > Witch Time if you have conditioned your opponents well. You can get a pretty mean-spirited punish if you pull it off.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm going to be further investigating Link's strengths, but the fact of the matter is, is that Link's not as bad as this tier list says he is. In fact, I'd rate him as upper middle tier along with others if you'd give me time to explain in legitimacy and time to show you in some matches. I want to explain what Link has to actually make him an upper middle tier character, aside from match-ups. Link has great follow ups from Bombs at closer ranges, amazing kill and combo ability and overall great damage racking. Citing his mobility and only a select few slow attacks as primary weaknesses, Link is otherwise a good character if you see how well he can play if one masters him.

Link has a slow grab, yes, but it's not the worst tether grab in the game; Samus has that and Toon Link's tether grab (due to the range and frame data) is the second worst. With throw combo ability, Link can have a hefty amount of combos from his throws like D-Throw > U-Tilt/U-Smash/U-Spec, all viable options with only the U-Spec requiring a read or just a fast-falling character (Fox). As with other combo ability, his Bombs are a great way to set up into combos, though often not true multi-attack strings, but when he can set up, it's going to have high damage backed to it; F-Air, N-Air, U-Air, D-Air, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Smash and Dash attack all can be set up from by Bombs. And his Jab 1 > Jab 2 > U-Spec is something that has hidden KO potential that I'm going to start abusing more due to how good his U-Spec can be.

Now look, Link might not have much tournament representation, but when he does, he can actually get somewhere. It takes time and effort to make Link into a character worth one's time, and it's not fair that he just doesn't get as much tournament representation, despite needing it. He's nowhere near a bad character, because I know his MUs all too well, and Link is more along the lines of a center middle tier, if not the lowest of the upper middle tier at best.

Link is a character worth investigating more, because he can have pretty great MUs against opponents.
I can even show that myself to anyone who's interested. Even though words may not do much to sway you, actions can and will; if anyone wants to see why I believe Link can be a middle or upper middle, just hit me up with a PM and I can show you guys myself.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

About the roll talk:

Absolutely right about Bayonetta's roll, but getting Bat Within off of it on occasion makes it not completely unusable. I think this trait needs to be explored further.

On another note: Bayo is seriously a nutty character. Feels like you're playing a different game on both ends, whether you're playing as her or playing against her.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nobie]

So I was in Ranai's Twitch chat and I asked him what he thinks of post-patch Lucina.

Ranai: She's like a new character. She's become a normal character.

 

[Radical Larry]

About the roll talk:

Absolutely right about Bayonetta's roll, but getting Bat Within off of it on occasion makes it not completely unusable. I think this trait needs to be explored further.

On another note: Bayo is seriously a nutty character. Feels like you're playing a different game on both ends, whether you're playing as her or playing against her.

Smooth Criminal

Warning, don't extend her bullet arts in the air.

Oh, and it's nice to know that her D-Air is the only stall-and-fall that doesn't meteor (correct me if I'm wrong, if Corrin doesn't have it), but it's also nice to know it can actually be acted out of!

 

[jespoke]

Warning, don't extend her bullet arts in the air.

Oh, and it's nice to know that her D-Air is the only stall-and-fall that doesn't meteor (correct me if I'm wrong, if Corrin doesn't have it), but it's also nice to know it can actually be acted out of!

Oh Bayonetta's D-air can certainly spike, Nairo did it to Shofu all f*kin night.

 

[Lag Chan]

So if Mii Fighters are all bottom tier does that mean they'll be universally allowed soon? People can finally put their fears to rest over Mii Fighters breaking the meta especially if they're locked to the subpar 1111 sets.

 

[FullMoon]

The MU vs Bayonetta is going to be really volatile for pretty much everyone. Make one mistake and activate Witch Time and chances are you're getting blasted off and lose a stock. If you're close to the ledge when you activate it you're pretty much done.

Short characters like Greninja and Pikachu are probably going to be a little problematic for her because her neutral B won't work very well on them, but that's pretty much it.