Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[RonNewcomb]

and Side B just soars over people's heads at close range.

Recovery is also an issue, but it's not super bad. Just subpar.

I read that you can plink B to A for a instant pin from the ground. ::shrug::

EDIT: ninja'd

Recovery... on stages like Duck Hunt and Omega Kalos, can't Corrin pin the wall and jump up repeatedly?

I'm going to be investigating Bayonetta a bit more, but my impression is that she's very trap and fear tactics based (SF4 Seth from what I understand). Some of her stuff doesn't seem to true combo when I want it to and the day1 inexperienced Bayo yells me "wtf, this feels like I should hit you." This is especially true with rage vs floaties. You have the frame advantage, but your moves are just too slow.

Agreed. I've never had so much trouble killing Jigglypuff until I played as Bayonetta. I was getting KOs from her Gentleman's jab, of all things, cause f-throw and bair weren't working for me. (Staled, likely.)

 

[meleebrawler]

I read that you can plink B to A for a instant pin from the ground. ::shrug::

Recovery... on stages like Duck Hunt and Omega Kalos, can't Corrin pin the wall and jump up repeatedly?

Corrin can only use one Dragon Fang Lunge before landing. Not sure about getting hit, however.

 

[Baskerville]

I mean, it's not too far fetched considering you can pocket Zelda's phantom knight and Robin's entire thoron. I'm really eager to see if this is true though.

No. And It was one of the first things I tested when using her. Villager doesn't get hit because of Pockets invincibility.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I thought he was "pull you in, now we play the spd/srk game"

Edit:
As a clarification, SPD is a command throw that beats blocking. Srk is shoryuken, that beats pressing a button. When you're in range for both, you face this dilemma. Because Seth has low health, he can't play this game all the time. That's my perception of that part of Seth's character. I don't know that much about SF4.

And if you backdash he's got a Chun-like kick flurry that catches it, and if you stay away to zone he's got a sonic boom, a teleport, and Dhalsim's stretchy crouch fierce. Mr. Options is a good name, since glass cannon doesn't quite fit, and he's got an answer for everything.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Decided I would give my thoughts on Corrin and Bayo as of right now


Adored, LOVE the playstyle. She has a nice tilt game and can get into some nice kill setups that end with uair. She is very slow on the ground and in the air, but I think her pros out weight that. Also, her recovery is like Roys, something i got used to with fast. I can see her in mid tier at least but again it is too early to tell.



Complex at first, but I got used to her later on. Bad rolls and smash's have bad ending lag, but she is also really good. Her combo potentiall can allow her to kill really early the more I got used to her. I think she does not want to go vertically because every time I tried to kill with an up b as I legit am at the ceiling it does not kill. The bullet arts help a lot and her jab is AMAZING. I don't have a prediction on her spot however.

 

[Smog Frog]

yo

dair is strong af. buffer sh dair can be used as a quicker substitute for fsmash.

 

[Ulevo]

My initial impressions on Corrin is that she is medicore. She has really strong isolated tools with good applications on a character that cannot use them to their full potential. Her run speed is bad, her combo game is sub par, particularly without safe, fasr confirms or grab launchers, and her frame data is pretty average. She will likely wind up a mid tier but I just see a lot of flashy gimmicks.

Bayonetta is a nice character. Even assuming her zero to death combos are legitimate with DI, she does not have the mobility and frame data to open with them consistently. However, she has good aerials, a dynamic like Cloud that forces approaches (Bullet Arts), good edge guarding, good damage, good knock out options. She seems high tier to me unless some major assets are uncovered with her, and smart players who wind up baiting with Witch Time are going to steal tournament matches with her.

 

[TDK]

My initial impressions on Corrin is that she is medicore. She has really strong isolated tooks with good applications on a character that cannot use them to their full potential. Her run speed is bad, her combo game is sub par, particularly without safe, fasr confirms or grab launchers, and her frame data is pretty average. She will likely wind up a mid tier but I just see a lot of flashy gimmicks.

Bayonetta is a nice character. Even assuming her zero to death combos are legitimate with DI, she does not have the mobility and frame data to open with them consistently. However, she has good aerials, a dynamic like Cloud that forces approaches (Bullet Arts), good edge guarding, good damage, good knock out options. She seems high tier to me unless some major assets are uncovered with her, and smart players who wind up baiting with Witch Time are going to steal tournament matches with her.

That's what I originally thought about Corrin. Then I discovered Fair to up air strings. You can even end them with an Up B for a very powerful finisher.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, it's not too far fetched considering you can pocket Zelda's phantom knight and Robin's entire thoron. I'm really eager to see if this is true though.

I tested it, you can't pocket Wicked Weaves. Would be borked though.

 

[JesterJaded]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet, but for those out of the loop, Bayonetta's framedata can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RMNNqVb8uJQL_g0KWgl4IOjXQ/edit#gid=1478544066

Her CQC startup is Link tier apparently.

 

[Vipermoon]

Because it was first brought to attention in this thread a few months ago... Marth's Fair now matches Sheik's Fair range. I can't believe a sentence like that even exists but yeah.

 

[TDK]

Because it was first brought to attention in this thread a few months ago. Marth's Fair now matches Sheik's Fair range. I can't believe a sentence like that even exists but yeah.

I love how Marth's gone from having a grab range longer than Yoshi to having his fair [with a sword] shorter than Sheik's [with an arm] for a while.

 

[jespoke]

I think she does not want to go vertically because every time I tried to kill with an up b as I legit am at the ceiling it does not kill. .

All you are missing is the Up-air after the Up-B and you got yourself a kill

 

[ShadowGuy1]

All you are missing is the Up-air after the Up-B and you got yourself a kill

Yeah, I have been trying that now, thanks!

 

[Radical Larry]

All you are missing is the Up-air after the Up-B and you got yourself a kill

Nah, Up Air can't really do anything after Up B, because Up B sends opponents horizontally.

 

[jespoke]

Nah, Up Air can't really do anything after Up B, because Up B sends opponents horizontally.

I don't know at what percents it works, i just watched M2K practice it last night

 

[C0rvus]

Up B > Side b > up air seems to be the finisher of choice. DI up to avoid the up air though.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't know at what percents it works, i just watched M2K practice it last night

I think you'd need to use Side B, but after all I've done, Bayonetta's U-Air doesn't work after Up B.

 

[NotLiquid]

Man you really don't want to screw against Bayonetta's edge guard game. Continuous animation on NAir and UAir makes mince meat out of opponents who can only respond to them with air dodging. Those moves are just way too good dealing with recovering opponents from above and the sides.

 

[TurboLink]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet, but for those out of the loop, Bayonetta's framedata can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RMNNqVb8uJQL_g0KWgl4IOjXQ/edit#gid=1478544066

Her CQC startup is Link tier apparently.

Finally, someone Link can bully.

 

[Mario766]

Actually, I'd still pick Link over Shulk...and any of those characters. Besides, Link's the all-around swordsman. His frame data might not be impressive to you, but it's still decent frame data compared to Shulk. Link's Smash Attacks have good start up too, way better than Ike's. And I think I'd prefer a Link who's F-Air may deal 11% damage but more knockback to a character who's F-Air does 13% and less knockback...at the same F14.

Sometimes a little extra power isn't all that bad. If you want, I can show you why I never choose other swordies over Link.

Or you can have a faster fair that does 13.

 

[Rikkhan]

My thoughts on Bayonetta: I expected some combo oriented character but my god this is silly, she has several 0-death combos, both vertically and horizontally. Combo damage can go as far as 70% but if you want to play safe you can do a simple 30-40% combos, I hope the crappy frame data keep this monster in check.

There is a lot of combo exhibition videos in youtube but most of them are crappy but this one is pretty good:

 

[Radical Larry]

Or you can have a faster fair that does 13.

I'd rather take my chances with the slower one. Besides, by the time Ike's F-Air gets down to Link's level (if Link's below), it'd be around F14 or 15, about the same time Link's pops out. The F-Air starts above Ike's head and comes down.

If I ever choose Ike, it'd probably be as a pocket, not a secondary, not a primary. I'd still stick with Link over Ike any day.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

My thoughts on Bayonetta: I expected some combo oriented character but my god this is silly, she has several 0-death combos, both vertically and horizontally. Combo damage can go as far as 70% but if you want to play safe you can do a simple 30-40% combos, I hope the crappy frame data keep this monster in check.

There is a lot of combo exhibition videos in youtube but most of them are crappy but this one is pretty good:

Training mode is not a good portrayal of actual combos, because 1.) the CPUs don't DI; and 2.) the combo counter will still count something as a true combo even if you can airdodge out of it.

 

[Mario766]

I'd rather take my chances with the slower one. Besides, by the time Ike's F-Air gets down to Link's level (if Link's below), it'd be around F14 or 15, about the same time Link's pops out. The F-Air starts above Ike's head and comes down.

If I ever choose Ike, it'd probably be as a pocket, not a secondary, not a primary. I'd still stick with Link over Ike any day.

The move is below Ike at frame 15, but the hitbox is so much larger and makes up for it.

 

[C0rvus]

Boys, boys. Both your mid tier swordies fairs are good. Corrin's is pretty alright. Got a weird angle, but it seems to combo into stuff, or at least set up situations. If they air dodge for the up air, I'll up-b them into the blast zone. This warrants testing in real matches.

Seriously, though; why does Corrin's forward tilt have such a high launch angle. It's hard to get folks off the stage or on the ground. This is a bad sign, as I feel Like Corrin has some sauce in terms of ledge and tech coverage. His moves want people in the air, where he's super sluggish.

 

[Mario766]

Corrin solely lacks horizontal KB moves, but moves into up-air is still a very solid option.

 

[TDK]

Corrin solely lacks horizontal KB moves, but moves into up-air is still a very solid option.

Forward Smash and Tipper Side-B are probably her best ones. She is designed to kill vertically, so keeping her off of FD [when playing as her] or making sure she's on FD [when playing against her] can help, because Platforms are amazing for Corrin.

 

[Mario766]

Forward Smash and Tipper Side-B are probably her best ones. She is designed to kill vertically, so keeping her off of FD [when playing as her] or making sure she's on FD [when playing against her] can help, because Platforms are amazing for Corrin.

I don't see Corrin doing amazingly on Battlefield, even with platforms side-b is still rather laggy to use any option outside of feints. Dream Land 64 is a solid ban though against Corrin.

 

[Radical Larry]

Forward Smash and Tipper Side-B are probably her best ones. She is designed to kill vertically, so keeping her off of FD [when playing as her] or making sure she's on FD [when playing against her] can help, because Platforms are amazing for Corrin.

Actually, Neutral B can (even with an uncharged projectile) be a great horizontal KO move. The move stuns opponents long enough to actually hit with the second part fully charged, so there's that.

But as for stage picks, I don't see Corrin doing too well on Duck Hunt, Lylat or Smashville, despite them having platforms. The ceiling is often too high for a good vertical KO.

 

[san.]

I think Roy's landing lag decrease is enough to revitalize his gameplan, and it works perfectly with his high speed, fast falling, and aggressive gameplan. I think it helps circumvent a lot of the key weaknesses he had. Nair at 11 frames landing lag is a great tool now. Fair and bair are no longer high risk. Uair has even better juggling, traps, and followups. Dair is actually usable and the lag makes sense when it should end. He's a lot less dysfunctional now, but he still has built-in weaknesses with his recovery, autocancels, and initial dash.

I'm starting to think that all the Fire Emblem characters could be in the upper 50% of the cast now, at least in that top 25-30 area (maybe not Lucina if she didn't get those range increases), an incredible jump compared to how good I thought some of them were a week ago.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Corrin Fsmash tipper is capable of killing Bayonetta as early as 70% uncharged, so Idk what this talk of lacking horizontal kills moves is about.

Speaking of, if Bayonetta Witch Time's the Fsmash charge box, all that does is guarantee she gets hit by the later hits of the charge box. Matter of fact, once she gets hit two more times on the charge, the Witch Time just stops, and the attack proceeds as normal. It's rather weird.


The Heel Slide's second hit completely saves Bayonetta's approach game singlehandedly. If she could not throw this kick out without a hit confirm, she would be god awful.

 

[TDK]

Dream Land 64 is Corrin's best stage, by far. Other than that, T&C seems like the next best pick.

 

[Luco]

It doesn't seem to be a true combo on training mode but I feel like it has to be really close - Corrin Dtilt ---> sideB (instantly planted into the ground) seems to do things.

 

[Asdioh]

I can't get Bayonetta at all. I just know that Witch Time is stupidly good, as we all knew from the trailer, and her Dair is very strong at getting horizontal KOs with its landing hitbox, even though it doesn't feel like it should be that strong. I just can't play her at all.

Corrin though. I'm not sure if this is an unpopular sentiment, but Corrin feels like "why even play Marth/Lucina?" tier to me. Obviously their gameplans have differences, but Corrin flows much more naturally to me personally, and the moves that serve similar purposes (Fair, Upair, Nair, tilts, Jab) seem overall stronger. Plus, s/he makes up for lack of speed with a very usable projectile. And then Counter seems better in every way imaginable. I died at 67% (ending percentage) as Palutena to a Counter on the bottom of the Duck Hunt stage, while Corrin had like ~120 Rage. That's absurd. Admittedly, he was countering another character's attack, not mine, so I'm not sure if that somehow affects the knockback, but I doubt it.

People complaining about Corrin being sluggish in the air/ground... s/he has a good projectile that can go across an entire stage when charged. Damage output is good, KO potential is good, reaching insanity levels with a simple Counter read. Also a sword. And better airspeed than Kirby, with better startup/range (SWORD!!) than Kirby. You know nothing of sluggish.

Also, Kirby with Corrin's hat is literally the coolest thing in Smash.


...so, has anybody noticed anything interesting with Sheik/Rosalina/ZSS/Sonic supposedly having 1 lower weight value? Did you win any games you might've lost because you got a KO a few percent earlier than you would've otherwise? ;D

 

[jespoke]

...so, has anybody noticed anything interesting with Sheik/Rosalina/ZSS/Sonic supposedly having 1 lower weight value? Did you win any games you might've lost because you got a KO a few percent earlier than you would've otherwise? ;D

I haven't seen it yet, but Sheik dying 1% earlier and Up-B killing 1% later is bound to have it rare hidden moments where it had an impact.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The Sheik/Zamus/Rosalina weight decrease is gonna be the new "Untechable" meme, the rate this is going.

 

[JesterJaded]

I am thoroughly convinced that the weight nerf represents how the queens' campaign of *** kicking is a good workout.

Except for Rosalina, because she rarely has to move.

What is the mentality of lowering their weight and nothing else?

 

[Eugene Wang]

Get back to me when Rosalina is the lightest character in the game, and when the psychic pokemon is fifth in lightness. /s

But in all seriousness, even a casual would be able to tell that those weight decreases do virtually nothing.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I am thoroughly convinced that the weight nerf represents how the queens' campaign of *** kicking is a good workout.

Except for Rosalina, because she rarely has to move.

What exactly is the mentality of lowering their weight and nothing else?

Probably to test the waters. Bayo seems to have been built from the ground up to be a stupidly good character and Corrin's match ups are largely unknown so if all three of them received major nerfs when they came in...This is part of the reason why I still think there are going to be 2 or 3 patches left.