Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Witch twist is Bayo's jab.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I haven't seen it yet, but Sheik dying 1% earlier and Up-B killing 1% later is bound to have it rare hidden moments where it had an impact.

People are saying they will die about 5% earlier apparently. Time to rework my combo and kill percent charts! yay...

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Some thoughts on the buffs / nerfs.

Marth / Lucina: The buffs did wonders for these two. Their poking tools are significantly more rewarding and much safer now thanks to damage / endlag adjustments. Fair is much safer on sheild and very good as a KO move around 110% near the ledge now, Jab can be canceled into a plethora of moves such as F-Tilt, U-tilt is safer as a juggling tool, and their U-air's are slightly better at juggling / racking up damage. Easily the biggest winners of the patch.

Falco: While I would have liked more buffs, I'm glad Falco got some love from the devs instead of being completely ignored like in the last few patches. The buffs to his U-Smash and D-Smash's kbg is great since it helps remedy his biggest weakness: his inability to KO. U-Smash OOS will probably be his main KO tool now. That being said, I really wish the devs would have fixed his jab or given him more reliable kill setups.

Roy: Roy really benefits from the decreased landing lag on all of his aerials. It makes his neutral much safer and allows him to obtain more Followups / escape juggles safely with nair / fair. DED buff is pretty good too.

Sheik: While the nerfs will not usurp her from throne, they still are fairly notable. The nerf to her weight makes her more susceptible to KOs (particularly from powerful moves like Bowser's U-Smash) requiring her to play more cautiously. The Vanish nerf decreases the effectiveness of her D-Throw 50 / 50s and makes it harder to get a kill with Vanish in the neutral. NVM the nerf barely affects Sheik apart from situation where the opponent has a huge amount of rage.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Sheik: While the nerfs will not usurp her from throne, they still are fairly notable. The nerf to her weight makes her more susceptible to KOs (particularly from powerful moves like Bowser's U-Smash) requiring her to play more cautiously. The Vanish nerf decreases the effectiveness of her D-Throw 50 / 50s and makes it harder to get a kill with Vanish in the neutral.

Uhh... 2.4 percent more cautiously? And vanish kills 4 percent later? *Braces for no noticeable impact in play*

(Those numbers are 1-(84/85)^2 and 1-(102/104)^2, respectively.)

 

[Ffamran]

Falco got Ganondorf'd this patch. I think it was Ganondorf... Him, Dr. Mario, or Kirby who just got stronger moves for the sake of stronger moves. Incidentally, all of them also had changes to how moves work, but not in a way where things just got that damn better for them like Ike did. This patch basically gave Falco the fastest (by a hair) flip kick Up Smash at frame 7 to Fox and Mii Gunner's frame 8. With the knockback increase, it's (both full and last hit-only) Falco's second strongest raw kill move tied with clean, 13% Bair (~120%) instead of third strongest with body hit, 12% Dtilt (~137%). First strongest is a clean Side Smash if anyone's wondering at ~111%. Also, Down Smash's growth went up from 76 to 78.

What does this do to Falco? Absolutely nothing! It makes his Up Smash really stupid now, but pretty much all the flip kick Up Smashes are stupid. Hello, Fox's Up Smash setups and hello, Yoshi's low recovery on his Up Smash. Oh, and Kirby's makes his feet invincible for the entire move. The only way it would be stupider is if it had I-frames or even lower recovery... Up Smash was a decent ledge getup option for Falco... Now it kills. Up Smash is more useful and that's it; it's not a neutral option, it can't really be confirmed as easily as Fox's, and it doesn't really change or significantly enhance Falco's game plan.

In my opinion, from the "winners" of this patch goes to Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Ike. Marth is rewarded for his spacing now, Lucina is finally rewarded for hitting, both of them also take less risk when their Utilt and Ftilt have lower recovery, Roy's aerials are less committal and less risky with Nair becoming even stupider now that is has 11 frames of landing lag which is just 1 frame off of Lucina and Marth's 12, and Ike? Ike just gets a little pat on his head for doing what he's doing with moves already useful in his game plan. Runner-ups would be Bowser Jr., Falco, Little Mac, and Toon Link. Patch 1.1.4 really did make Smashes more useful and less of a waste as Sakurai was quoted... Bowser Jr. and Marth (and Lucina?) all had their recover reduced for their Smashes. For Jr., it was all his Smashes while Marth (and Lucina?), it was Down Smash which wasn't really good, but now it's not really that bad if you use it since the recovery isn't high. Falco and Little Mac join the let's make Smashes even stronger. For Falco, not really that great, but for Little Mac... All variants of his Side Smashes do 18% for sour angled up and down, 20% clean with them, and 24% with his angled down body hook. Up Smash does 21% sweet and Down Smash does 13%. Small numbers, right? Just +1% and +2% for his body hook. When your Smashes can do around 20% and you have armor, they just even more powerful. As for Toon Link, Bair having 17 instead of 22 landing frames is pretty good as a cover. It already auto-cancels from his hop, but for safety's sake, he's not going to land and question his life.

Witch twist is Bayo's jab.

Dude, you played DMC. Witch Twist is not Bayonetta's jab; Witch Twist is Helm Breaker High Time. Witch Twist is that one move that setups everything Bayonetta needs to beat the living hell out of everyone. Dante's Combo A and B which would be his jab if he was in Smash is just there in DMC as a ground option. Helm Breaker? That launches, that prepares for aerial combos, that can lead to ground combos, and if you are competent in the air and competent with jump canceling, then your enemies will kiss their butts goodbye. Bayonetta's gonna go Marvel on everyone to make up for the fact she never appeared in Marvel vs. Capcom. AIIIIIIIIR COMBO, *****!!!

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Uhh... 2.4 percent more cautiously? And vanish kills 4 percent later? *Braces for no noticeable impact in play*

(Those numbers are 1-(84/85)^2 and 1-(102/104)^2, respectively.)

Vanish's hitbox size was also nerfed, making it harder to land out of D-Throw. That being said, I misjudged how little the hitbox was actually nerfed, so sheik can still land it on most characters even if they air dodge and drift away.

 

[Mario766]

I'm gonna have to go off-topic


But Helm Breaker never launched.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm gonna have to go off-topic


But Helm Breaker never launched.

****... I meant High Time... They both start with H! Speaking of which... There are no characters with the ability to rise up with their normals - excluding DmC and UMvC3, moves like High Time were mapped to normals and not Specials or Style moves -, right? Would have been neat if say, Bayonetta's Utilt let her rise, but that might be too good... Some of them really make sense, though, like Corrin, (Dr.) Mario, Olimar which is basically his Nair, the Pits, Sonic, and even Ike's Utilt would look fine if they were rising moves. Captain Falcon being able to rise up with Up Smash would be wicked. Oh well.

 

[Mario766]

Smash doesn't have such moves.

DmC has it in spades, with moves like High Time, Rising Sun.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you'd need to use Side B, but after all I've done, Bayonetta's U-Air doesn't work after Up B.

I've been getting it all day, a jump canceled upb sucking someone in from inside/below will fail to send them horizontally, allowing a uair to connect.

 

[Kofu]

If Corrin gets a hitbox for charging FSmash Ness should get his yo-yo charging hitboxes back.

Brief experience against Bayonettas of unknown skill but a lot of her attacks seems to be susceptible to DI at some point. You can get out of jab 2/3 and I don't think I've ever been followed up after an aerial side-b. I'm sure a lot of that will change as people learn DI patterns and the various options to follow up with her combos.

If the rest of the cast was as intricately designed as the third party characters (and to some degree the DLC) we'd have a much more interesting game.

 

[Radical Larry]

Jigglypuff's Rest actually KOs the three nerf-weighted characters around 3% earlier. KO Punch kills them about 3% earlier too.
So this means Ganondorf's Warlock Punch can KO them 5% earlier.

Wait...

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch can already kill them at 0% with rage, so what's that point?

If Corrin gets a hitbox for charging FSmash Ness should get his yo-yo charging hitboxes back.

Brief experience against Bayonettas of unknown skill but a lot of her attacks seems to be susceptible to DI at some point. You can get out of jab 2/3 and I don't think I've ever been followed up after an aerial side-b. I'm sure a lot of that will change as people learn DI patterns and the various options to follow up with her combos.

If the rest of the cast was as intricately designed as the third party characters (and to some degree the DLC) we'd have a much more interesting game.

But that would cost the devs money and heaven forbid they use more money to make the characters seem better!
Maybe in Smash 6 we'll see a change.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I sometimes question what goes on in your brain Larry.

Bayonetta IMO will become a character with the best disadvantaged state, even better than Sheik's and ZSS. Multiple side b's, jump/up b resets, up b OoS into potential death, witch time to stall and instill fear on opponents in extending strings, bat within to better position yourself against an opponent that overextends.

She's just so..<3

 

[HeavyLobster]

Vanish's hitbox size was also nerfed, making it harder to land out of D-Throw. That being said, I misjudged how little the hitbox was actually nerfed, so sheik can still land it on most characters even if they air dodge and drift away.

Sheik is still more or less the same character. Vanish hitbox being smaller might potentially make it harder for Sheik to use it to cover the area around the ledge to thwart 2 frame attempts, but not by much, and of course it only matters for the few characters actually able to challenge her recovery options, so maybe it'll make life a bit easier for Pika and Villager at best. Needle nerfs are always appreciated but won't change much, and obviously the weight nerf isn't that big either. Really the meta is basically the same as before, but with the addition of Bayonetta, and maybe Ike/Toon Link being a bit better.

 

[Ffamran]

Smash doesn't have such moves.

DmC has it in spades, with moves like High Time, Rising Sun.

Hmm... Maybe the developers could use the concepts from Bayonetta and Ryu in the future for moves like that... I don't like using "Sakurai quotes", but someone mentioned way back that Sakurai wanted more aerial combat... Well, there's a few ways for that: launchers and aerials that can combo come to mind. Launcher are easy; just moves that send up and can potentially setup like Ike's Dtilt or ZSS's Utilt. The difference is that with the idea of held buttons changing moves, they could make it so Utilts and maybe even Up Smashes which is a bit more difficult since holding them means they're charged Up Smashes allows the user to rise up. So, holding attack during Mario's Utilt just has him rise up kind of like an extension to his move like how Bayonetta's Bullet Arts extend her attacks. It would be a "different" move, but only in frame data like maybe it has set knockback now. They could even give (Dr.) Mario a Shoryureppa if they don't want to make it a rising normal. Or they could make it an entirely different move like with Ryu's where say, Corrin's heavy Utilt has her do Link's Cyclone Slash? from Soul Calibur II instead. Obviously not as powerful, but just a move to get Corrin into the air. For aerials that can combo... We have that, but Bayonetta's Fair? - I don't own her, so I'm probably wrong about this - is the only aerial to have multiple inputs and basically act like Meta Knight's Ftilt which Bayonetta also has for her Ftilt.

Also, DmC was the one to move High Time and most command normals to the "Special" button. There were some command normals like Stinger which was forward (x2) and attack, but it wasn't until the Definitive Edition that DmC had a lock-on system which they reasoned was why moves like High Time couldn't be a command normal. In UMvC3... more buttons, different game, bleh. DMC1 to DMC4:SE, moves like High Time, High Roller, Rising Sun, and Upper Slash (DMC4: SE-only) were all command normals using the lock-on system.

Back on-topic, how do you, as an Ike player, view Ike's buffs to Nair and Fair? Was I overestimating Ike's buffs even though they were buffs to essential moves for Ike rather than more situational moves like Falco's? Or was I close to it? What are you thoughts if they haven't been said already?

If Corrin gets a hitbox for charging FSmash Ness should get his yo-yo charging hitboxes back.

Brief experience against Bayonettas of unknown skill but a lot of her attacks seems to be susceptible to DI at some point. You can get out of jab 2/3 and I don't think I've ever been followed up after an aerial side-b. I'm sure a lot of that will change as people learn DI patterns and the various options to follow up with her combos.

If the rest of the cast was as intricately designed as the third party characters (and to some degree the DLC) we'd have a much more interesting game.

Wait... I thought Ness's Down Smash hits while charging...

 

[Radical Larry]

FallofBrawl
The Rest thing is actually serious; Puff can kill two of the three 2% to 3% earlier than before (forgot which ones, but it was in the patch discussion thread), same with Little Mac.

The Warlock Punch part was a joke and the last part was sarcasm.

But I guess some people can totally catch it in time, apparently.

Bayonetta IMO will become a character with the best disadvantaged state, even better than Sheik's and ZSS. Multiple side b's, jump/up b resets, up b OoS into potential death, witch time to stall and instill fear on opponents in extending strings, bat within to better position yourself against an opponent that overextends.

She's just so..<3

But the fact of the matter is, is that Bayonetta will need to respect opponents with long grabs or projectiles, and opponents who have better frame data. This makes her need to respect both Link and Toon Link, for examples.

 

[C0rvus]

Bat Within is just a baffling design decision.

 

[Nobie]

By the way, there's an FFA all items/all stages on tournament going on right now in the Michigan area featuring Zinoto and Ryuga, etc.: http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming

How's that for a change of pace.

 

[L9999]

Wait... I thought Ness's Down Smash hits while charging...

If it did Ness could edgeguard that space witch and Sheik with 0 effort. Maybe that's why they changed it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Aww Man! I just realized I missed all this great greninja debate! Time for a few late replies

Those other scenes aren't ignored, they just aren't that good.

Reallly guys...... istudying is power ranked number TWO in the Netherlands. Some is power ranked top 32 in Japan. Saying these other regions aren't good is really grasping for straws, to put it nicely. It's not like no one lives there, or nobody plays smash there. These regions may not be as good as the USA, they're respectable enough to not be ignored (because people are ignoring them, that's a fact) People need to stop being so narrow sighted and open their eyes up more to foreign play. This centrism around America really bothers me, and I'm American!

You know, I constantly see Greninja mains whining about their Sheik match up and using this excuse to justify their performance and tier placement. Meta Knight has a bad Sheik match up. Ito has talked about dropping the character, and Tyrant is using Sheik vs Sheik. Yet he is still placing quite well.

This sounds a lot like the Ness vs Rosalina argument, and I do not really see the validity. Greninja and especially Falcon struggle because they are just not amazing characters. It is about time people accepted this.

Though what you're saying isn't wrong, it's just that what you're saying literally goes for every other high tier. All the high tier boards complain about how oppressive Sheik is, because it's true. Sheik is just difficult to muscle through unless you have an elite kit. If you consider characters like amazing, then yeah, are amazing too. Greninja should be considered a top 20 or 25 character in this game.

Also, trying to compare 's and 's situation is a poor argument, considering.....you know..... only one of them can legitimately kill you at 20%

Tomorrow, I'm gonna try to make a post addressing all the misinformation swirling around I feel like the view of this characters is blurred more by stereotypes and falsities rather than actual flaws.

 

[Kofu]

Wait... I thought Ness's Down Smash hits while charging...

They did in Brawl, but in return their damage wasn't boosted from the charge. Snake's USmash worked similarly; it range increased as it charged but not its damage.

I had forgotten that they had altered Ness's charging animation, though. He no longer holds the yo-yo out in front of him as he charges, instead keeping it close to him.

 

[Jucchan]

Aww Man! I just realized I missed all this great greninja debate!
Reallly guys...... istudying is power ranked number TWO in the Netherlands. Some is power ranked top 20 in Japan. Saying these other regions aren't good is really grasping for straws, to put it nicely. It's not like no one lives there, or nobody plays smash there. These regions may not be as good as the USA, they're respectable enough to not be ignored (because people are ignoring them, that's a fact) People need to stop being so narrow sighted and open their eyes up more to foreign play. This centrism around America really bothers me, and I'm American!

Some is 32nd in the newest Japan PR.

 

[Y2Kay]

Some is 32nd in the newest Japan PR.

Whooops.

I will change that.

 

[Jams.]

Brief experience against Bayonettas of unknown skill but a lot of her attacks seems to be susceptible to DI at some point. You can get out of jab 2/3 and I don't think I've ever been followed up after an aerial side-b. I'm sure a lot of that will change as people learn DI patterns and the various options to follow up with her combos.

Her extended combos will probably be more reliable versus big characters. Yep, definitely needed another character that stomped big characters...

Speaking of, if Bayonetta Witch Time's the Fsmash charge box, all that does is guarantee she gets hit by the later hits of the charge box. Matter of fact, once she gets hit two more times on the charge, the Witch Time just stops, and the attack proceeds as normal. It's rather weird.

This is interesting. Does this mean Witch Time is ineffective versus multi-hits?

 

[san.]

Back on-topic, how do you, as an Ike player, view Ike's buffs to Nair and Fair? Was I overestimating Ike's buffs even though they were buffs to essential moves for Ike rather than more situational moves like Falco's? Or was I close to it? What are you thoughts if they haven't been said already?

Ike gets more guaranteed kill confirms. If he grabs you at certain percents, you lose the stock. He can situationally use uair, nair, and fair to take stocks. Then there are raw fairs and edgeguarding fairs. It is tough to keep fair fresh, though.

Prepatch, it was a little annoying getting followups with nair at 0% on fastfallers except for jab, and the late hit wasn't too great at low %. Now everything is easier. You can easily dtilt fastfallers after nair and utilt floaties. Nair->aerials can happen at lower %.

When performing combos, uthrow->fair for example, opponents go farther at low % and have more hitstun and knockback. It just changes the feeling of the combo a bit, but not by much.

 

[TDK]

This is interesting. Does this mean Witch Time is ineffective versus multi-hits?

Not sure on this, but I have been able to get up Shield before witch Time ends as well. Also been able to keep moving in the air to get to a nearby ledge before being hit. It's not foolproof, it just slows you down, so you can still act, which doesn't help the move considering Bayo's already slow moveset.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Back on-topic, how do you, as an Ike player, view Ike's buffs to Nair and Fair? Was I overestimating Ike's buffs even though they were buffs to essential moves for Ike rather than more situational moves like Falco's? Or was I close to it? What are you thoughts if they haven't been said already?

Ike's buffs definitely matter. Nair combos are nontrivially better, though I'll need to get in the lab to tell you by how much. Increased shield safety on your primary spacing tool is also pretty important. Fair kills around 10% sooner, and the buff also increases damage output on throw combos. Weight nerfs above him also serve to magnify this power increase. So overall they're meaningful but not revolutionary, as the core issues that make Sheik and ZSS tough haven't been fixed, and those two put a ceiling on his viability. The climb did get less steep though.

 

[Kofu]

Her extended combos will probably be more reliable versus big characters. Yep, definitely needed another character that stomped big characters...

She'll stomp them if she gets in, though given her bad frame data that may be a slight problem; trades with heavies will practically always be in their favor. I guess that's what Bullet Climax and Witch Time are for, to force approaches and create openings. Having Afterburner Kick as a burst option is helpful too (especially since her dash attack is garbage).

Combo characters inherently wreck heavies by design. It's unfortunate but a truth of Smash.

 

[AxelVDP]

Little Mac stuff

The changes that Little Mac got in this patch are not entirely positive, actually.
Sure, it's really nice having stronger smashes but the added power doesn't even give them more shield safety than before (just barely) which is a shame but oh well, it's still a buff.
The problem lies in the new angle of dsmash (30° -> 45°) this is actually a non-trivial nerf (I get that it was probably done in order to compensate for the now stronger knockback) because it severely limits the gimping capabilities of the move AND it also does not set up for edgeguards as easily as before (and onstage edgeguarding was actually an area where Mac was actually pretty decent at)
Regarding uthrow and dthrow new angles... I don't really know what to think of them, their main use was to set up jablocking opportunities with dair on platform stages, and I guess that they still can be used the same as before, just at slightly different percents and positions, so...

edit: disregard what I just said, fortunately the initial reports in the patch note thread were wrong

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm picturing how Ness could cover every 2 frame ever with his old Dsmash charging hitbox.

Ike gets more guaranteed kill confirms. If he grabs you at certain percents, you lose the stock. He can situationally use uair, nair, and fair to take stocks. Then there are raw fairs and edgeguarding fairs. It is tough to keep fair fresh, though.

Prepatch, it was a little annoying getting followups with nair at 0% on fastfallers except for jab, and the late hit wasn't too great at low %. Now everything is easier. You can easily dtilt fastfallers after nair and utilt floaties. Nair->aerials can happen at lower %.

When performing combos, uthrow->fair for example, opponents go farther at low % and have more hitstun and knockback. It just changes the feeling of the combo a bit, but not by much.

So the damage buffs on Ike's aerials don't come with knockback value changes? That becomes a really strong Fair that you can easily combo into at kill %. Lol, funny that this one buff is probably more significant than everything Marth got combined.

 

[Kofu]

I'm picturing how Ness could cover every 2 frame ever with his old Dsmash charging hitbox.

It'd be decent but the charging hitbox is weak. Now, if it hit confirmed into the rest of DSmash... yeah, that'd be nuts. Ness's edgeguarding game is strong without it though.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The Fsmash chargebox is offset by needing immaculate spacing on the sword to get all 12 hits plus the stab. Done too close, you can jump out. Done too far, you can DI out and shield it, and DF won't pop a shield on its own.

Though I guess it doesn't matter when he can release the Fsmash at any point and ruin your timing.

Funnily enough, Corrin can Counter Surge on Corrin himself just before the stab connects and KO him right there, no timing required, just mash Down B like a madman. I swear Corrin's moveset was designed and balanced around Corrin dittos.

 

[FimPhym]

Regarding witch time and shielding/interrupts/clanking with smashes: not going to be a problem long term unless I'm very much mistaken.

I had some issues at first but all you've gotta do is throw in a quick up or down tilt and then you've got them set up to do whatever you like. More than enough time with a fresh witch time. I can see how it might matter if you've been mashing witch time but that's the design of the move - less reward for bad reads.

Bayonetta is full of quirks that mean she'll feel horrible if you don't "get it". Her smashes, witch time stuff, the weird up b jump up b style recovery. She feels so much cooler every time another part of the character clicks though, very fun.

 

[LancerStaff]

Stiiiill not seeing anything spectacular on Corrin... Jab 1 I'm fairly sure is f5 and definitely has stubby range, not to mention the tip lacks a hitbox. Nair doesn't actually have two hits, meaning it does a poor job pressuring shields. Anything involving the stabby dragon powers plus the front hit of Dsmash has meh active frames too. Other normals... May be placebo but his F and Dtilt seem really short, on top of the aforementioned jab.

Bayo has some quirks. Big one is that you can punish Bat Time, although I'm not sure about the specifics. Usually I'd get it to happen with Pit's multihit Nair. Getting Bat Time off an airdodge can put you in a bad spot because Bayo drops like a rock with it... Nspecial doesn't really link at all, so you can just hold down to fall out and crouch, and then crawl or swordsman Dtilt if you're that close. Rapid fire's basically useless against Cloud. Also you can cancel the charge with shield but it's not stored.

 

[Mr. Johan]

What frustrates me about Bat Within is that it still slows the attacker down, albeit less so.

Bayonetta got punished for not timing WT correctly by taking half damage, why does the attacker get punished also?

 

[TDK]

Stiiiill not seeing anything spectacular on Corrin... Jab 1 I'm fairly sure is f5 and definitely has stubby range, not to mention the tip lacks a hitbox. Nair doesn't actually have two hits, meaning it does a poor job pressuring shields. Anything involving the stabby dragon powers plus the front hit of Dsmash has meh active frames too. Other normals... May be placebo but his F and Dtilt seem really short, on top of the aforementioned jab.

Fair and Up air, down tilt and up tilt are pretty fast and pop the opponent upwards. Jab isn't great, but Corrin's got hilarious range in both the sword and the stabby dragon moves, and especially the stabby dragon moves. Neutral B is amazing, Side B is nice for mixups, Corrin's got a kill throw, Up air is completely ridiculous, being quick and killing at around 110, and a lot of corrin's tools are designed to get you above them. They're characters that require optimization and perfect spacing to play well, and reward you with lots of powerful vertical follow-ups and finishers. Corrin's top 25 at least, probably more.

 

[C0rvus]

Bayo has some quirks.

Understatement of the year.

Corrin isn't spectacular, period. If you're trying to be impressed, move on.

 

[SaltyKracka]

After some hands on time with the new characters and the new patch, I have come to three conclusions.

1. We did not need another sword-wielding Fire Emblem character. Side B is the only point of Corrin's kit I find remotely interesting.
2. Bayonetta is some bull****, and her grounded SideB is a major source of it.
3. I wouldn't trust Sakurai to balance a level.

 

[san.]

Doesn't Corrin's sideB kill move come out on frame 4 from the ground and 10 in the air? You can also kill confirm the paralyzer neutral B (you can charge the bite and launch an uncharged paralyzer) and it stalls in the air.

I think Corrin definitely has enough to compete.

 

[Halifax?]

I feel like Bayonetta and Corrin bring a lot to the game and want to see more + characters like Pacman and Peach. Certainly unfamiliarity factors in but I perceive these characters to have a healthy amount of depth and complexity.

Hoping to see a more viable Marth as well though I'm not gonna get ahead of myself.