Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

You do know he can still get 42% off a U-Throw > aerial Whirling Fortress, right? Bowser will have no trouble getting his damage racking up, and as for the nerf, Bowser having a tighter window isn't bad...since the window isn't even significant! Most opponents will die before they get too far away anyways, so the window being tightened has no effect; the 'nerf' doesn't matter even in competitive play.

Can you still kill? Yes. Can you still rack up hefty damage? Yes. Can you still do the same thing you could? Yes.
Does the nerf matter? No.
Will the nerf make him worse as a character? No.

What's the big deal of having one insignificant nerf?

The nerf is significant because a smaller window means Bowser can't rely on it to kill, and so often has to resort to lesser options. While I don't consider them bad per se, Bowser needs to be great rather than good/decent at ending stocks. So he is worse, but still leagues above where he was pre-1.1.3.

 

[Radical Larry]

The nerf is significant because a smaller window means Bowser can't rely on it to kill, and so often has to resort to lesser options. While I don't consider them bad per se, Bowser needs to be great rather than good/decent at ending stocks. So he is worse, but still leagues above where he was pre-1.1.3.

The window was around 102% damage in 1.1.3? Now it's only in the 98% range? A 4% difference?
It's like the weight buffs and nerfs characters got, but even less significant.

Bowser is still astonishingly powerful to end stocks and he kills opponents within the 60% to 80% ranges, which is far less than the limit that he has. He can still rely on U-Throw > U-Air to kill because of how insignificant the window change was. He doesn't have to resort to lesser options either, he can still use the kill setup. It doesn't affect my style of play, I still use it, I still use other worthwhile attacks that work with him, I can still do well with him.

The 'nerf' is insignificant to Bowser's meta and should just be taken as such. If he can still kill with it, he can still kill with it. If I can still use it reliably, I can still do it. The window is not even double digit percents smaller, so saying it was significant is completely ignoring the fact that he can still kill around 20% to 40% earlier than the window limits itself.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The nerf is significant because a smaller window means Bowser can't rely on it to kill, and so often has to resort to lesser options. While I don't consider them bad per se, Bowser needs to be great rather than good/decent at ending stocks. So he is worse, but still leagues above where he was pre-1.1.3.

I'm going to chip in and say that Bowser at this point in time now has a reliable way to kill you under 100 with his U-Throw > Uair now. When you're over 100? This is when you can start using Flying Slam + Platforms.

It's not really a massive nerf IMO, it's more like a sidegrade at best and a minor, minor change in effectivity at worst IMO. It means you may have to use Bowser's other moves to kill now.

 

[Mario766]

I'm picturing how Ness could cover every 2 frame ever with his old Dsmash charging hitbox.



So the damage buffs on Ike's aerials don't come with knockback value changes? That becomes a really strong Fair that you can easily combo into at kill %. Lol, funny that this one buff is probably more significant than everything Marth got combined.

It's just a damage buff, the BKB/KBG didn't change. It increases the KB, but doesn't affect the combo potential of N-Air/F-Air.

The devs really knew how to help Ike without getting rid of something.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm going to chip in and say that Bowser at this point in time now has a reliable way to kill you under 100 with his U-Throw > Uair now. When you're over 100? This is when you can start using Flying Slam + Platforms.

It's not really a massive nerf IMO, it's more like a sidegrade at best and a minor, minor change in effectivity at worst IMO. It means you may have to use Bowser's other moves to kill now.

I still used Bowser's other significant kill moves, even the very odd picks like Bowser Bomb, D-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt and F-Air. I even use Bowser's grounded Whirling Fortress and Down Smash as KO moves. The former's not as reliable as the latter, but it'll get the job done.

But in terms of non-KO moves, I actually use Bowser's Fire Breath as a damage racking and spacing move against rushing opponents. Not reliable, but it does get damage up and halts rushers.

It's just a damage buff, the BKB/KBG didn't change. It increases the KB, but doesn't affect the combo potential of N-Air/F-Air.

The devs really knew how to help Ike without getting rid of something.

They could have added frames to the start up of D-Smash, but the devs wouldn't do anything like that.

KB changes, however, even as insignificant as they'd be, can be altering in some way though.

 

[Mario766]

Devs don't do random **** like making a useless smash more useless.

Before the patch, Ike comboed better with rage. This slight KB increase, like from a slight 1 percent damage increase, makes these combos start from 0. N-Air sets up into up-air/f-air 50/50s on it's own, kinda like U-Throw, and gives a 3rd option that will catch people trying to jump out of u-air/f-air combos. N-Air also sets up d-tilt on fast fallers at 0, leading to a solid 32 damage conversion off N-Air -> D-Tilt -> B-Air, and for anyone who doesn't try to air dodge out of it, 31 damage off N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air, though that isn't a true combo. Mind-games leads to longer strings

N-Air -> D-Tilt -> (Air dodge wait mind game) N-Air on landing lag -> F-Air which does 40 damage.


F-Air is more important now, as it's almost as strong as B-Air, it being fresh is more important, leaving us to use B-Air more effectively in neutral as in a lot of light heavy MUs, Ike has a kill confirm at around ~80 or so off up-throw.

F-Air is only a 1 percent damage less in terms of KB as B-Air, as the moves have the same BKB, KBG and KB angle. Back Air hits like a truck, now F-Air does too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

(not my video)

So we can confirm that another patch is on the way.

If not, well, Corrin has a guaranteed kill on recovering opponents, lol.

 

[JesterJaded]

(not my video)

So we can confirm that another patch is on the way.

If not, well, Corrin has a guaranteed kill on recovering opponents, lol.

Reading this gave me hope that vanish could be punished.

Watching this made me crawl back to the despair cave.

Did the WFT tech, or was the glitch caused by teching, I wonder?

 

[LancerStaff]

Tipper for sideB? You can impale them + forward kick and they'll die around 100-110%, and that doesn't need to be spaced much. If they shield, you can mix up your escape options. The tipper is good against recovering opponents or out of a full hop sideB, since the endlag is surprisingly low.

Dragon fang shot is frame 15, but you don't have to use it point blank. You use it at a similar range you'd use a tilt since the bite has good range. You can get kills with it at 90-100 fairly easily for the uncharged paralyzer into bite. Frame 15 isn't so bad for a projectile either.

Whiffing with side B is bad. With how far it flings you you give up all your space or just fly offstage outright, and it still doesn't deal with people up close. Doubt it kills at 110% with DI...

Uncharged DFS is slow as molasses. You just shouldn't be getting hit by it.

Corrin can instantly throw the pin out by sliding your finger from B to A, and is faster for it, as you don't have to wait for B to release and then press it again. The DL hop is frame 4, and the pin itself is 2 frames, if not instant. That's a Frame 6 pin that can be done from pivot and reverse with a kill confirm from the kick at 100-125 depending on stage position. And if he whiffs, he can just stand there motionless until you make a move and then react, or if you're gonna try and stare him down, he can back kick to safety with little time to react to that.

Forget about hitting only opponents that just stand there, that's a move that forces an RPS that Corrin should not lose at the very worst.

I know about the instant pin. CPU spams it like crazy. Just don't overcommit like a madman against Corrin. Everybody has these stupidly powerful options that keep people from doing certain things, and Corrin's keep people from doing autopilot dashing stuff between his side B and DFS.

No, pinning is dumb. Characters with chargables get charge, characters with decent projectiles or Zairs just biff you, and characters with good mobility can take up your space if you kick at them or if you jump you're in a bad spot. Most everybody fits at least one of these.

To me, it seems like patient play kills Corrin.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I know about the Upperdash Arm. CPU spams it like crazy. Just don't overcommit like a madman against Pit. Everybody has these stupidly powerful options that keep people from doing certain things, and Pit''s keep people from doing autopilot dashing stuff between his side B and Arrows.

No, Upperdashing is dumb. Characters with chargables get charge, characters with decent projectiles or Zairs just biff you afterward, and characters with good mobility can take up your space once you commit to Arm. Most everybody fits at least one of these.

To me, it seems like patient play kills Pit.

I can play this same game.

No tool is perfect. If Corrin blindly throws it in neutral and tries for the Forward Kick or the Jump option, chances are good he'll be punished hard. That's why Corrin would want to be spacing carefully with Fsmash and Nair and Fair autocancels and Bair autospacing, to entice them into an option that DL can cover if the correct read is made.

DL is a complementary tool with Corrin's aerial kit that can kick momentum into high gear with proper manipulation. It's not going to win games by itself.

 

[TDK]

LancerStaff , have you played Corrin?

 

[Mario766]

Side B is unsafe unless you're allowed the option to escape.

Kick into your opponent is punishable, jump has 40 FRAMES of lag, unless you cancel it with another jump *I think it's possible*. Once you pin yourself, you can't feint so you are forced into an option, if you're a fast character they possibly can catch you trying to back kick away also, depends on position/distance.

 

[Radical Larry]

Side B is unsafe unless you're allowed the option to escape.

Kick into your opponent is punishable, jump has 40 FRAMES of lag, unless you cancel it with another jump *I think it's possible*. Once you pin yourself, you can't feint so you are forced into an option, if you're a fast character they possibly can catch you trying to back kick away also, depends on position/distance.

By feint, you mean you can't just press up to release?

(not my video)

So we can confirm that another patch is on the way.

If not, well, Corrin has a guaranteed kill on recovering opponents, lol.

My first impression: What the fuuuuuuaaaa?

I'm just hoping this particular glitch works on a select few amount of characters though, I may test when I get home.

 

[Mario766]

I don't get the question.

When I say feint, I mean when Corrin goes for the stab, stops then immediately can act, making the action safe. Is it an up motion? I don't have a Wii U nor have I played Corrin, so I wouldn't know.

Pressing jump after you stab the ground leads you to incur end lag on the jump.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't get the question.

When I say feint, I mean when Corrin goes for the stab, stops then immediately can act, making the action safe. Is it an up motion? I don't have a Wii U nor have I played Corrin, so I wouldn't know.

Pressing jump after you stab the ground leads you to incur end lag on the jump.

I'm going to test out Corrin's side B later and I'll give you some accurate stuff before spouting anything.

 

[Mr. Johan]

K, it's something that occurs with Dragon Lunge's stab. This time it was when stabbing someone at the same time they were knocked back from another attack, namely MK Bair.

Guess it occurs when DL stab occurs simultaneously with another form of hitstun. Wall bounce, another attack, whatever.

If it's not fixed, this gets silly for doubles. Takes em out of play for a few seconds or guarantees the stock. lol.

 

[Chuva]

Reverse Lunge kick still has a hitbox right at the place where the lance is pinned. Assuming proper spacing, a buffered pin into reverse kick, even on a whiff, will either hit your opponent or make them shield while you reset things to neutral. If they're rolling into you they can also be hit by the kick.

And could we please stop assuming a Corrin is just throwing random grounded DLs in the neutral game? Even ZSS Flip Jump is punishable on reaction if used that way. That's certainly not the optimal usage of the move.

Wii Fit Trainer never returned to Earth.
She wandered the depths of space eternally
Eventually, craving death, but unable to die, Wii Fit Trainer stopped thinking.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can play this same game.

No tool is perfect. If Corrin blindly throws it in neutral and tries for the Forward Kick or the Jump option, chances are good he'll be punished hard. That's why Corrin is going to be spacing carefully with Fsmash and Nair and Fair autocancels and Bair autospacing, to entice them into an option that DL can cover if the correct read is made.

DL is a complementary tool with Corrin's aerial kit that can kick momentum into high gear with proper manipulation. It's not going to win games by itself.

Rude much? Pit doesn't lose to anything outright (besides Sheik dur) because he's great at everything. His high points don't exceed that of other viable characters but he really doesn't have any weaknesses.

Fsmash isn't safe unless you get the tipper, and Corrin can't force an opponent to stand right at tipper range. Spacing with autocancels is nice, but it nothing special to me considering Pit can SHAC any aerial and FF three of them significantly. Two can't be perfect shielded either. But anyway... No. Just refuse to get into DL/Fsmash range and that's it. Either stay out of range and watch him plod on over or stick to him like glue. Corrin has a very fundamental flaw in his gameplan, of which it appears that many characters can exploit.

LancerStaff , have you played Corrin?

Naturally. I mean, I bothered to look at his jab enough to see it's missing a third of a hitbox and comes out f5. I didn't call him a Pit downgrade lightly.

Kick into your opponent is punishable, jump has 40 FRAMES of lag, unless you cancel it with another jump *I think it's possible*.

Pretty sure I tried that and nothing happened. Even then, now Corrin's stuck in the air without his second jump and without DL since he can only use it once without touching down.

 

[Mario766]

...Exactly my point.

It's another unsafe option to add onto unsafe options.

 

[TDK]

...Exactly my point.

It's another unsafe option to add onto unsafe options.

It's only unsafe if you throw it out too much and your opponent is used to it. DL is a move that you need to safe for that moment most of the time. The backwards hop [without the stab] can be fun for mixups though.

 

[RonNewcomb]

However, Corrin sucks super hard against short characters. Fspecial, which otherwise seems like a super over-tuned/broken move is almost useless against tiny characters. Fsmash is really hard to hit. Utilt won't hit at all. Dash Attack is less reliable. Usmash is NOT reliable. Rising Fair doesn't work (THIS ONE IS A BIG DEAL). Any kind of Uair doesn't work. Bair doesn't work. Nair works but still. Dair does less damage and is more likely to miss (I LOVE Dair though). You have to go for grabs more often which do good damage but that's all they do (until they kill). Of course, this list assumes the small character (I picture Pikachu) stays grounded which they absolutely should in this MU.

Well, short characters that like to go in. Toon Link likes to fight from the air throwing projectiles at... right around lance-tip range. And Tink's framedata isn't better enough than Corrin's to go CQC.

For a night-and-day contrast, Tink beats Bayonetta every time he touches a button, at any range.

 

[HFlash]

So how long can we wait until we start saying that Cloud's tournament results can be considered "legit"? I know alot of people were taking his early success with a grain of salt since Roy had a similar early push and sort of fizzled out.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So how long can we wait until we start saying that Cloud's tournament results can be considered "legit"? I know alot of people were taking his early success with a grain of salt since Roy had a similar early push and sort of fizzled out.

I personally dont care about his results a month in his release. I say around this time is when i start to take his results seriously.

 

[Ffamran]

Devs don't do random **** like making a useless smash more useless.

They managed to break Zelda's Up and Side Smashes after fixing them in Brawl. They made Luigi's Dtilt even worse for no reason and they added a random, not as sour, but still sour-spot on Samus's Ftilt which is already stupid since she's the only poke kicker to have 4 hitboxes and the weakest sour-spot that do 6% angled and 5% straight while the sweet-spot does 9% angled and 8% straight. Oh, doesn't seem bad, right? The sour-spots have 10 base and 30 growth while the sweet-spots have 30 base and 70 growth. Captain Falcon and ZSS also have sour-spots on their Ftilts, but keep the same knockback on all hitboxes. Samus needs an Ike treatment, constant damage and knockback, for her Ftilt or have her Ftilt match the Capt. and ZSS's in hitbox and knockback formatting. And for some, Ganondorf's Nair being made into a stronger Captain Falcon Nair instead of the strong hit 1 that could connect into hit 2 is considered a nerf. I would also argue that Sheik's Bair wasn't that good, but it wasn't bad either, and it was still nerfed when Fair and Needle Storm were the main culprits for Sheik's... Sheik-ness. Rare cases, but there are times where developers of any game will nerf (already bad) moves for almost inexplicable reasons.

 

[Yikarur]

Everyone wanted to have Sheiks bair (back in pre-april) nerfed at that point and they did exactly what everyone wanted.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Sheik's bair was like her best kill move in the 3DS days. The nerf was completely justified.

(not my video)

So we can confirm that another patch is on the way.

If not, well, Corrin has a guaranteed kill on recovering opponents, lol.

Oh Jesus.

We should probably try to spread this video as much as possible so that the dev team will see it and fix it. I've noticed that glitches which don't get a lot of publicity take way longer to get fixed, whereas ones that do (e.g. the Diddy grab glitch, or the plethora of glitches related to Mewtwo when he was first released) get fixed almost immediately.

 

[FimPhym]

Just discovered in a match that Little Mac's unblockable uncounterable KO punch can be countered by witch time.

Witch time is sweet. I wonder if it has any other weird interactions.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think I have a reason to main Corrin now

 

[Fatmanonice]

Any thoughts on how Corrin and Bayo might fare against the Top 10? Just goofing around, I feel like both Corrin and Bayo could be counters to Rosalina. Corrin slaps Luma away effortlessly, easily kills off the top, dragon lunge and fsmash are amazing for countering straight forward recoveries to the ledge, and dragon fang shot not only stuns Luma but sends it flying. As for Bayo, Rosa's big body and floatiness could be a death knoll when it comes to Bayo's aerial combos. It will be interesting to see how these two characters will fit into everything.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just discovered in a match that Little Mac's unblockable uncounterable KO punch can be countered by witch time.

Uh, that was shown in the final presentation months ago...

Any thoughts on how Corrin and Bayo might fare against the Top 10? Just goofing around, I feel like both Corrin and Bayo could be counters to Rosalina. Corrin slaps Luma away effortlessly, easily kills off the top, dragon lunge and fsmash are amazing for countering straight forward recoveries to the ledge, and dragon fang shot not only stuns Luma but sends it flying. As for Bayo, Rosa's big body and floatiness could be a death knoll when it comes to Bayo's aerial combos. It will be interesting to see how these two characters will fit into everything.

Well, now that I think about it Corrin might do decently against ZSS since a whiffed grab means certain death. Same with a whiffed Fsmash/DL for Corrin though... Looking really swingy and not at all consistent so we're not going to see a lot of pocket Corrins or anything.

Besides another way to easily gimp Ness, I think I've said enough about Corrin's abilities though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Any thoughts on how Corrin and Bayo might fare against the Top 10? Just goofing around, I feel like both Corrin and Bayo could be counters to Rosalina. Corrin slaps Luma away effortlessly, easily kills off the top, dragon lunge and fsmash are amazing for countering straight forward recoveries to the ledge, and dragon fang shot not only stuns Luma but sends it flying. As for Bayo, Rosa's big body and floatiness could be a death knoll when it comes to Bayo's aerial combos. It will be interesting to see how these two characters will fit into everything.

How good is Fsmash (corrin) at dealing with Luma? If spaced properly it might even OHKO Luma, and be perfectly safe.

 

[Aninymouse]

I'm not part of the BR but if a character doesn't have results to back his placement then it probably is about potential. A few Roys do well in tournaments too.

They do well, but they don't win... unlike many characters below Roy. That's my point.

 

[Radical Larry]

Characters who don't have results or can't have determinate results should be put into an undetermined tier due to how little results (or how indeterminate their results are) there are for them, maybe.

 

[Y2Kay]

Characters who don't have results or can't have determinate results should be put into an undetermined tier due to how little results (or how indeterminate their results are) there are for them, maybe.

We do, it's just called low tier

 

[jespoke]

But the list is not a list of results, it is a list of how viable each character is. People not playing a character doesn't make it is bad, just not interesting. Results not matching ranking indicates the viability assessment might be off, but doesn't necessarily mean it is actually the case.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I personally dont care about his results a month in his release. I say around this time is when i start to take his results seriously.

His results are significant irregardless of his status as a new character. It is foolish not to care about them because he's new. To have such results in spite of being new is a strong indicator that the character is most likely rather good. I think people cared less about him because they supposed he was getting nerfed due to being a regular smash character on steroids in so many ways.

 

[Megamang]

I played some good corrins so far. She seems to be a character that can repeatedly set up landing traps, and has decent to good tools for exploiting those with even good landing options.

Pivot fsmash, projectile and bite, lance... if you land with an aerial for safety, she has a damn strong counter that resets the situation. I think people might be underestimating the efficacy of that. How often does a fair, and all your tilts, set up a juggle?

Edit: counterplay evolved for roy quickly, and he fell. Clouds counterplay is much more difficult and considerably less effective.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

His results are significant irregardless of his status as a new character. It is foolish not to care about them because he's new. To have such results in spite of being new is a strong indicator that the character is most likely rather good. I think people cared less about him because they supposed he was getting nerfed due to being a regular smash character on steroids in so many ways.

I mean, if you think MU knowledge on how to fight new characters can be developed within days, then sure, take all his results seriously.

On a more politically-correct note, I think remembering the context of the result should be emphasized. every result known is different.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Speaking of Cloud and results:

https://youtu.be/QhoIr_8di0c?t=3m48s



But seriously. I know getting stomped THAT quickly isn't going to be THAT common for Cloud, but I really think his recovery at the end of the day will ultimately keep him out of top 10 on the tier list. Its just going to hurt him too many times over the long haul of a tournament.

 

[PND]

Any thoughts on how Corrin and Bayo might fare against the Top 10? Just goofing around, I feel like both Corrin and Bayo could be counters to Rosalina. Corrin slaps Luma away effortlessly, easily kills off the top, dragon lunge and fsmash are amazing for countering straight forward recoveries to the ledge, and dragon fang shot not only stuns Luma but sends it flying. As for Bayo, Rosa's big body and floatiness could be a death knoll when it comes to Bayo's aerial combos. It will be interesting to see how these two characters will fit into everything.

I played a bunch with a friend (Who happens to be top 5 on the PR in my region) and I tried out Rosa against Bayo and Corrin.

vs Corrin:

Oh god I hate Corrin. Corrin just has all the tools to absolutely destroy Luma. When I started, I was 2 stocking his Corrin left, right and centre. By the end? I couldn't keep Luma alive for more than 5 seconds. I had to rely on grabs a lot more than usual due to the ludicrous power of Corrin's counter, coupled with Rosalina's light frame. If Corrin read me correctly once, chances are it was lights out for Luma. . . or even worse, for Rosalina. I was able to consistently edge guard Corrin though, for what it's worth. I said screw it and switched to Sheik and did way, way better (and my Sheik is garbage)

vs Bayo:

I am not scared of this matchup at all. Luma janks out Bayo's long combos. Even if Bayo hits a Witch Time on me, Luma has bailed me out of trouble by hitting Bayo before she's able to capitalize on me. Bayo's airdodge is so bad that I can up air her for free. Even if she dodges, my up air recovers faster than her dodge, I can hit her again while she's still vulnerable. Bayo is good when she gets in and opens you up, but Luma is REALLY good at making sure that doesn't happen. Most of the time, Luma would tank the hit and give me time to escape. If Bayo spaced around that, I would often get Luma to hit Bayo before the combo really got going. Bayo's Bair spacing was good though, good tool for knocking away Luma. . . and when Luma's gone Rosa is way more vulnerable. . . but seriously, Luma, from my testing, is pretty much an anti-Bayo WMD.