Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Tri Knight]

From all of my experience, and I'll be very honest about this. This has always come from my experience, but...
It's Link. You might already write this off as a troll post, but hear me out as to why I think this way in the first place, you shouldn't pass this up just yet.

Link doesn't have the best mobility in the game, nor the best frame data or anything like that, but what he lacks in mobility and some attacks having sub-par frame data is literally everything else. Link has a Jab > Spin Attack combo against the three characters, which is basically a kill confirm at higher damages, Link has the ability to out-range all three characters in terms of attacks and Link has, above all else, projectiles that are actually reliable against these opponents and kill power.

First, I'll talk about ZSS, since I know more about MUs for her and Link than I do with the other two.

With Zero Suit Samus, she's actually the least troublesome of the three queens for Link. ZSS has the best mobility for sure and great attack speed and combo-to-KO ability, but what matters here is how Link retaliates. If ZSS is going for her U-Air ladder, Link needs to first DI and then perform one of 3 options, F-Air, D-Air or N-Air. The least damaging, but safest all around, is using his N-Air on her to possibly reposition him from disadvantage to advantage. The second most safest is his D-Air, which he has to literally fast-fall with at the right moment in time to turn it around. If ZSS whiffs her Up B and Link performs anything to get him out of stun, Link can fast fall faster than her to get himself into a punish position quick; the best way to do this is using Link's N-Air and avoiding ZSS. If ZSS uses her Flip Jump, another example, wouldn't it be wise for Link to actually stay in the midst of it and hit her near the end with an upwards attack?

Secondly, Link has something against ZSS that ZSS doesn't have against Link, a very great ranged get up option with F-Air, and range itself. And from that we also have Link's range vs ZSS's range, which is actually superior even with worse frame data. While it's true that ZSS does have a great projectile, it's not the best and can easily be trumped by Link's N-Air or Bomb. Link's Bomb also allows for setups that are unimaginably amazing against ZSS. The Bombs need to be respected, especially paired with Link's Boomerang, which makes the Bombs abnormally better since two items cover the field of options.

One thing that people often overlook is Link's ability to actually defeat ZSS's recovery options and even kill ZSS vertically. Link can beat ZSS's own Flip Jump with an F-Tilt or an F-Air if ZSS uses it parallel to Link at the perfect range, so if ZSS gets hit, it might potentially be all over at the right damage. If ZSS goes under the stage, Link can RAR N-Air, B-Air or even D-Air her into a stage spike (and only on Battlefield can he stage spike her with a grounded Spin Attack).

With ZSS, it's a game of patience and accuracy, as well as knowing when to dodge her grab, because that's the thing that will sometimes get me, so if I see her rushing up and going for the grab, I'll immediately roll away for safety and punish accordingly or QDJ (quick double jump) away from her and then punish. Accuracy comes into play when Link has to make sure every hit counts and that any hit on him can spell disaster.

Stage selection also comes into play with this, as selecting Final Destination and Lylat Cruise are Link's best options against ZSS. Final Destination won't allow ZSS to kill much earlier and Lylat Cruise has a large vertical ceiling, making it similar to FD in terms of usage. These stages also allow for Link to possibly gain the upper hand in battle, since the removal of platforms for FD means he can freely FF D-Air for a potential punish, and the low platforms in Lylat means that Link can safely hit ZSS from underneath with somewhat little repercussion, especially if Link pressures with U-Tilt and ends the pressure with U-Smash.

In my experience playing ZSS, Link vs ZSS would be a clear 50:50. What does Link in though, is the fact that he's heavy, has below average speed and has some somewhat below-average moves in terms of speed. Otherwise, Link has the tools to at least fend off ZSS. And remember, this is from my experience in offline tournaments and With Friends, not For Glory.

You know, I haven't posted for almost 2 full months and this really made me wanna come back. As a former Link MAIN I will say this:

Are you out of your damn mind??

Sheik alone is one of his worst MUs nevermind the others. You're arguing that Link has tools and in his own right he does. But none of them are effective enough. Link's god awful speed is what destroys him. His fastest attack is frame 7 and that's his jab for God's sake. His jumpsquat is sluggish which almost negates the utility of SH's against a competent high level player. Link can tank a lot of hits but it becomes utterly useless when he can't escape any attacks. In many cases, you can just make up a random combo and Link still turns into a punching bag.

Link's definitely got tools but due to his awful attack speed, and even worse ground and air mobility, he doesn't stand much of a chance. I used to swear by Link and even i have grown tired of being in a disadvantage in too many situations.

There's a reason why Tink does considerably better than Link. He does everything Link does but better. Simple as that.

 

[JediLink]

Corrin is a character that rewards patience, and loves to punish mistakes, landing options, and rolls. You shouldn't be playing this character like a rushdown character. That is not what Corrin is about. With the amount of range Corrin has, in conjunction with their slow speed, it is obvious that this character is more reactive in nature as opposed to being aggressive. Especially with a set of tools that include a strong counter, a frame 4-6 lance + dropkick, Bair, Dsmash (reverse hit), followups on tilts/aerials, a stunning projectile with a strong bonus hit, and obviously Fsmash.

Despite being frame 15, uncharged DFG is still fast enough to catch poor rolls, dodges (airdodges because it stalls?), landings, and spaced moves. Furthermore, it sort of functions like an aerial Smash Attack while jumping. That's the best way that I can describe it, as there aren't many other moves that I can see being used in the same way. You have charged shots, Giant Punch, and LB Cross Slash, but those obviously take time to charge up. Probably the closest thing I can describe it to is Ganondorf's Fair. It has similar frame data (Ganon's Fair hits on Frame 14) and similar knockback (though uncharged DFG deals 6% more damage). The differences between the two are that DFG stalls you in the air, and DFG has more horizontal range at the cost of not having an arcing hitbox (making it a bit more linear). But overall, I can see players using it in similar situations by comparison. In particular, uncharged DFG is going to be very powerful against opponents on platforms who have their evasive options crippled. And guess who has a lot of attacks that can send the opponent upwards? If that doesn't work, you still have a fairly strong Uair, Fair chains, Side B platform snapping, Counter Surge, and other tools to rely on. Corrin wants to play on stages with platforms. And their Uthrow/Dthrow is just strong enough to net some late KOs while on platforms, as well.

In other news, I really wish that Corrin had better walking speed, or a slightly faster Dsmash. Reverse Dsmash seems necessary in some instances for netting KOs, but Corrin's speed hinders the ability to do this with consistent efficiency. Corrin takes about half a second before going into their full speed walking animation, and Dsmash only comes out on frame 13. It is a shame, since otherwise Walk -> Turnaround Dsmash would be a much more appealing option otherwise. It is still useful, and kills fairly early if you space it correctly, although I can see it becoming quite predictable over time against strong players. Oh well.

I don't understand this post because I don't know what DFG means. Since you mention charging are you talking about neutral B (Dragon Fang Shot)?

 

[Radical Larry]

Actions speak louder than words apparently, which I guess I'm going to have to do anyways now; this will be fun showing an MU of Link and how complex and complicated the character is.

 

[Luco]

It'd be decent but the charging hitbox is weak. Now, if it hit confirmed into the rest of DSmash... yeah, that'd be nuts. Ness's edgeguarding game is strong without it though.

Usmash did the same thing, and the charging hit often linked into the Usmash itself. You were also able to run and charge it so it was hanging offstage - meaning in this game Ness would get free usmashes on every recovering opponent ever because of that 1-frame vulnerability.

Which would be bonkers, but great. <3

 

[Sonicninja115]

Actions speak louder than words apparently, which I guess I'm going to have to do anyways now; this will be fun showing an MU of Link and how complex and complicated the character is.

Izaw is going to be at Avalon right? We should be able to see some high level link stuff there. Though Izaw might lose pretty early like at G3, solid placing for link though.

 

[Radical Larry]

Izaw is going to be at Avalon right? We should be able to see some high level link stuff there. Though Izaw might lose pretty early like at G3, solid placing for link though.

Izaw might end up blowing through opponents this time around, who knows? Maybe we could see a top 32 Link player this time.
Regardless, I am going to EVO 2016 (how many times will I say it?) and will show a level of Link that will be exemplary by the time it comes (I have literally months to prepare, it's not like I'm going to stay the same, I'll become better within that time).

Link's Jab 1 > Jab 2 > U-Spec is quite a dangerous tool I've been practicing with recently, and it works on a lot of characters, even sending them into potential KO within around 50%, and KO'ing them starting 70%. That and Link's Spin Attack is probably one of the best options to punish a getup roll toward any character.

 

[Gawain]

Boy, how many times have I heard that sort of argument before. "You've never seen a player like me! I'll prove that my low tier is better than your scrubby high tiers!"

Well, good luck with that man. A slice of the humble pie is in order, I think.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Actions speak louder than words apparently, which I guess I'm going to have to do anyways now; this will be fun showing an MU of Link and how complex and complicated the character is.

Actions do speak louder than words, so then why do you go on full page rants on the daily? Why not, idk, practice? Maybe watch some link, theorize, instead of ranting about how Link is amazing and how you'll prove us wrong?

 

[Tarastel]

Izaw's Link is more than solid. Reason why he lost at G3 was because of "lack of R.O.B experience." So in terms of skill he's great, just lacks a lot of experience against some characters. Heck, even Zero admitted fighting Ranai at G3 was worrying since he's never fought a Villager at that high a level.

 

[Radical Larry]

Boy, how many times have I heard that sort of argument before. "You've never seen a player like me! I'll prove that my low tier is better than your scrubby high tiers!"

Well, good luck with that man. A slice of the humble pie is in order, I think.

I'll be honest with you, and to everyone, I'm lazy, even in Smash Bros. in terms of competitive nature; it's not because I'm bad, it's not because of my character, it's because I can't take others as seriously. What you do unto me, treating me like I'm fallacious, I can prove you wrong in a snap if I need to in some personal matches.

I know what I talk about, I know the negative things Link has, so why do you think I try to say optimistic things about Link? To allow discussion and let the pessimistic views come out. I know how to play my characters against others and honestly, to think I'm not like that is called underestimation. Just because I post things on this forum doesn't mean I can't back them up.

Actions do speak louder than words, so then why do you go on full page rants on the daily? Why not, idk, practice? Maybe watch some link, theorize, instead of ranting about how Link is amazing and how you'll prove us wrong?

You know, I don't go on rants, I go on vents. I actually do practice against other people both online (With Friends) and offline. I've watched a lot of Link and I'll be very honest with you; I do better than that by a mile. I adapt quickly and I'll find ways to finish my opponents off, and just showing people one by one is just my start.

I've even attended locals, and I'm about to go for majors and regionals, then eventually EVO.

But then again, the only time I'm not holding back is when I actually don't want to. So EVO will be one of the few times people will see me going full on instead of holding back, should I go to the tournament. I've still got preparations to do before then, and even more practice to find things for Link.

...

But I'm not the first to admit Link is not amazing. Of course he's no top tier or upper high tier, but he's undeserving of his low tier placement. How would a character with so much to utilize as tools be considered ineffective, if it was not for the sake of representation? I've asked the question before about how many members of the Backroom were Link mains, never even had a response. For all we know, Link's position is solely based off of the little selective tidbits of information rather than all the truly great stuff Link has.

I was disappointed when Link got low tier instead of middle tier, where he more-so fits than anywhere else.

Izaw's Link if more than solid. Reason why he lost at G3 was because of "lack of R.O.B experience."

I actually know the R.O.B. thing, it's not fun at all. He's only one of three characters to really trouble me, the other two being Diddy and Meta Knight. But it's not hopeless if anything but Final Destination and Duck Hunt are picked. I know when to start avoiding the robot's D-Spec, which is one of two things that will get me.

If ROB's in the air and I'm below him, a U-Air or U-Tilt is the best solution. Otherwise, I need to train more against them.

 

[C0rvus]

So does anyone have an inkling of what might have changed about Charizard? Nothing obvious, but then again, noone seems to be working on it. Last patch, we had the datamine, and things moved quickly. What's changed?
Speaking of Charizard, iirc he's received changes in every patch. I think he illustrates the ineffectiveness of the way this game is patched. Sure, some characters like Ike and Bowser have gotten much better via patches, but Sheik's nerfs are inconsequential, Charizard is still bad, etc. Feels bad, man.
The poor pseudo-dragon is doomed to be perpetually unused, it would seem.

 

[Megamang]

Not to feed this fruitless discussion, but the whole "im holding back" thing is tired. Win as much as you can, or don't play competitive. Or do hold back for some unknown reason, but just don't talk about it.


More importantly, R.O.B. really is oppressive if you don't know the MU. The gyro ledge traps are deadly.

But can't you ledge drop into an instant rising aerial to grab it and cover yourself? Sometimes this doesn't work. Are there certain times you can't grab his gyro? Because it seems like its oddly difficult to grab, and I consider myself proficient with items, since I use the metal blade constantly.


Another question, does each bullet from bullet arts take a spot on the stale queue? Because if it does, that is incredibly useful. Staling really does make a difference when one is trying to land a kill. For instance, a single grab, 5 or 6 quick pummels, and fox has a set of fresh moves again. Bair especially gets kills much easier when its fresh, and I believe its slightly safer on shield.


EDIT: C0rvus I actually think the weight nerf is a decent start, at least for shiek. Her "weakness" is supposed to be struggling to kill. With heavy rage, her weight difference actually starts to become meaningful. Her weak but fast moves can be powered through on the ground, for instance a bowser f-tilt should be a good response on the ground if you know shiek is coming in with a fair.

The problem is, she still kills easily with her dthrow the way it is, needles means she doesn't need to go in anyways, and fair always wins rather than ever trading (IME). Making vanish smaller and weaker is actually a good start towards diminishing the high killing power she has but shouldn't.

What if d-throw had way less KB? So she always gets the u-air, but it doesn't hit you so high up? Giving her a kill confirm closer to 160, free combos till then, but no BS rage kills at 95%?

 

[ARISTOS]

So does anyone have an inkling of what might have changed about Charizard? Nothing obvious, but then again, noone seems to be working on it. Last patch, we had the datamine, and things moved quickly. What's changed?
Speaking of Charizard, iirc he's received changes in every patch. I think he illustrates the ineffectiveness of the way this game is patched. Sure, some characters like Ike and Bowser have gotten much better via patches, but Sheik's nerfs are inconsequential, Charizard is still bad, etc. Feels bad, man.
The poor pseudo-dragon is doomed to be perpetually unused, it would seem.

Nah no idea. Data seems to be coming out slower this time around. Shout out to the patch miners who make this possible though.

Also charged Bullet Climax eats through air dodges off-stage and can even kill lol.

 

[Gawain]

Well alright man. I go to EVO basically every year. If you ARE coming and you aren't just blowing smoke, I would be more than happy to play you in friendlies any time to see how amazing of a player you are, since you seem to be implying that you could beat me easily with Link.

Nah no idea. Data seems to be coming out slower this time around. Shout out to the patch miners who make this possible though.

Also charged Bullet Climax eats through air dodges off-stage and can even kill lol.

Yeah I'm gonna throw in with the charged bullet climax being a decent edge guard choice. If you knock your opponent high off stage, it basically forces them to airdodge the shots and go for a low recovery, which you can edge guard with nair and up air.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So does anyone have an inkling of what might have changed about Charizard? Nothing obvious, but then again, noone seems to be working on it. Last patch, we had the datamine, and things moved quickly. What's changed?
Speaking of Charizard, iirc he's received changes in every patch. I think he illustrates the ineffectiveness of the way this game is patched. Sure, some characters like Ike and Bowser have gotten much better via patches, but Sheik's nerfs are inconsequential, Charizard is still bad, etc. Feels bad, man.
The poor pseudo-dragon is doomed to be perpetually unused, it would seem.

Zard's gotten bigger buffs than a lot of characters, it's just that he started off pretty awful and it's kind of hard to make him able to stand up to the high tiers with his design. Bowser always had a more functional neutral and just needed better reward for getting in. Ike's buffs overall are in a league of their own as far as developer love goes. I do think Zard's buffs were actually pretty appropriate overall, even if he merits a few more. They've been far more significant than what Dorf or Samus or Zelda has gotten.

 

[UberMadman]

So does anyone have an inkling of what might have changed about Charizard? Nothing obvious, but then again, noone seems to be working on it. Last patch, we had the datamine, and things moved quickly. What's changed?
Speaking of Charizard, iirc he's received changes in every patch. I think he illustrates the ineffectiveness of the way this game is patched. Sure, some characters like Ike and Bowser have gotten much better via patches, but Sheik's nerfs are inconsequential, Charizard is still bad, etc. Feels bad, man.
The poor pseudo-dragon is doomed to be perpetually unused, it would seem.

It has been confirmed that the only changes Charizard got were more Up-Smash changes.

 

[LancerStaff]

That was the % I was killing a high level Ike, so it'll probably kill other characters even lower. Edit: Tested just now, and it is around that % at the edge or with rage, but it's more consistent around the 120-130 range at mid stage with little rage.

If you sideB and you impale the ground, you have 4 options:

• Do nothing, you eventually return to the ground
• forward kick, immediately throws out a hitbox
• backwards kick, throws out a weak hitbox in front and a stronger hitbox behind
• jump with some minor lag

Impaling them is an automatic forward attack, ~19 damage total. Sometimes you get the sweetspot from the quick lunge, and you won't impale them and instead just deal the 15 damage.

Attacks and jumping have minor lag.

This is quite good for a 4-6 frame attack without committing too much. Corrin doesn't care much about giving up space since he covers a bunch of space anyways, and can just use the pin again.

Also, you CAN impale people up close. I am arguing from experience and frame data. I am beginning to doubt you really looked into much of this..?

You don't really get four options because one of the kicks is most likely going to launch you off the stage...

Never been pinned up close, actually.

I just don't see what's so spectacular about the options out of DL.

There's always people trying to be the first to determine a new character's viability. And said opinion tends to be negative when you tend to crash and burn in your test run due to unfamiliarity.

Yes, let's just assume everybody who's not impressed with the dragon waifu is loaded with for Glory salt. I mean, come on now.

Apparently Boost Kick got nerfed from 220 KBG (Jesus wtf) to 209 and got it's angle changed from 50 to 48.

Don't think this'll stop the staircase but it'll probably reduce the potency of Boost Kick OOS

Too lazy to really test it properly (if somebody hasn't already) but there's definitely a difference on my end.

 

[Kofu]

Usmash did the same thing, and the charging hit often linked into the Usmash itself. You were also able to run and charge it so it was hanging offstage - meaning in this game Ness would get free usmashes on every recovering opponent ever because of that 1-frame vulnerability.

Which would be bonkers, but great. <3

Yeah, I knew USmash was the same; DSmash just seemed like the better choice for this discussion thanks to its launch angle (and power; I swear, USmash never kills). I actually started using Ness near the end of Brawl and found him remarkably fun (he's still fun in Smash 4, just not quite as satisfying for whatever reason).

If they positioned the hitboxes of charging USmash/DSmash a bit higher up than they were before it may not be the ace in the hole against recovering opponents like we're thinking (though I'm sure it would still hit some foes from certain angles).

 

[Dr.Smex]

Corrin is a beast, s/he is probably the marth brawl players wanted; very low lag on all his aerials minus dair, rising fair combo into itself/upair/nair, upair and nair have very strong hitboxes that kill when they look they shouldn't, Nair stays active for way too long and has amazing reach it beats airdodges very easily. Corrin's specials are very good too, has a unique counter that kills vertically, the side b thing has amazing mixup potential with all the edge cancel shenanigans, can be used to edgeguard and a way to recover
pretty cool move.

Corrin and Bayonetta I see being in top 6 or top 10 at the least and this is just my early impression of them. I'm really glad we get more viable characters added to the game it's good for the long run. what yall think?

 

[Aninymouse]

So does anyone have an inkling of what might have changed about Charizard? Nothing obvious, but then again, noone seems to be working on it. Last patch, we had the datamine, and things moved quickly. What's changed?
Speaking of Charizard, iirc he's received changes in every patch. I think he illustrates the ineffectiveness of the way this game is patched. Sure, some characters like Ike and Bowser have gotten much better via patches, but Sheik's nerfs are inconsequential, Charizard is still bad, etc. Feels bad, man.
The poor pseudo-dragon is doomed to be perpetually unused, it would seem.

Usmash was changed again. That was it.

 

[ZcK]

About bayonetta disadvantage state i dont think it might be as good as Zss or Sheik, she is quite tall, her airspeed is not really good and bat within is quite weird. She still has her side b and witch time and that alone is gigantic but I dont think she will get out for free as often as Sheik or zamus also both of bayo`s recoveries are easier to challenge unlike vanish or the tether grab

By the way there has been like 30 pages since last thread of discussing the same argument from the same person. Can we stop? it is becoming obvious the more replies he gets the wackier the next claim will be.

 

[RonNewcomb]

The more I learn about this patch the more I like it. Nerfs to boost kick and vanish, weight changes to top and lower tier chars, Marth and Ike coming out from under a Cloud... life's looking good.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

After finally getting home and purchasing Corrin and Bayonetta (hooray for 3 hour flight delays, true combo into missed connections and overnight stays), I feel fairly confident that neither of them is garbage, at the very least. Corrin feels fairly solid and intuitive apart from his side special, which I'm still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around. But when you press buttons, he attacks in a direction you expect that button to cover, so I have no real complaints.

Bayonetta I can see being potentially a top tier on par with ZSS and Rosalina, but I can also see her being...not a top tier. It will depend on whether or not her players can reliably get in with her and do those ridonkulous 50% damage combos. She's fun as hell, though, and her animations just ooze camp, sass, and mobbing for the camera. (Seriously, look at her "oopsie I'm about to fall" animation when you're standing on a ledge.) She may ultimately be one of those characters you can't really have as a secondary due to the effort required to use her, but between absurd combos and Witch Time I wouldn't ever feel comfortable ruling her out as a threat.

As a final note, Bullet Climax fires at basically the perfect angle to dissuade short hop anything.

 

[ARGHETH]

Never been pinned up close, actually.

Every character in the game can be pinned (assuming they're able to be pinned at the time, of course) if you get to ~half of his grab range.

Corrin and Bayonetta I see being in top 6 or top 10 at the least and this is just my early impression of them. I'm really glad we get more viable characters added to the game it's good for the long run. what yall think?

Corrin...won't be that high. He's good, yes, but not that good.

 

[san.]

You don't really get four options because one of the kicks is most likely going to launch you off the stage...

Even if you go offstage, it's not very laggy and characters won't be able to catch you easily. Even so, that leaves another 3, as well as just reacting to the opponent.

Never been pinned up close, actually.

Easily possible at jab distance. You can pin them even closer than that, but then the kick is guaranteed to miss since you're right on top of them. You can take a minute to test it yourself.

I just don't see what's so spectacular about the options out of DL.

It is a great, quick kill option without much commitment and it can be used well in neutral. It's damaging and offers a good amount of reactive and movement options. You can check the frame data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet..._g0KWgl4IOjXQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=943524191

People are also releasing videos about anything they discover.

It's the crux of Corrin's gameplay since she lacks many traditional combos and damage racking tools, so it's not like some amazing thing, but it's integral to the character.

 

[Gawain]

Every character in the game can be pinned (assuming they're able to be pinned at the time, of course) if you get to ~half of his grab range.

Corrin...won't be that high. He's good, yes, but not that good.

Honestly I don't even think Corrin is better than Ike or Roy. He's gonna end up in that muddy mid tier imo.

 

[ARISTOS]

Honestly I don't even think Corrin is better than Ike or Roy. He's gonna end up in that muddy mid tier imo.

Tbf, as of last patch it wasn't that hard to be better than

Don't know how much the landing lag changes helped him out but I assume he'll be able to apply his pressure game a lot better.
Why back-air isn't a solid kill move, I'll never know

 

[wedl!!]

I can see Bayonetta as solo-viable but she miiiiiight need a secondary for Diddy/Sheik.

Although IDK about that. Diddy kinda poops on Ryu but Ryus have still beaten the British chimp. Same goes for Ness/Sheik, which Nesses have taken sets in. I can totally see Bayonetta being like Ryu where comeback shenanigans prevent her from having a proper matchup spread. It's really too early to tell.

Ryu is still better IMO but I can't really determine how much. Better neutral and Sheik MU matter a lot. I prefer not to count my chickens before they hatch, though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly I don't even think Corrin is better than Ike or Roy. He's gonna end up in that muddy mid tier imo.

That's not a horrible place to be. Mid tier in 4 is hardly bad.

 

[williamsga555]

Corrin feels alright, going off of early impressions. They play real smooth, have some legit strings that get set up pretty easily, have a few powerful launchers.

Main thing I haven't seen discussed much about them is that their neutral b projectile is actually quite weak. I don't mean weak as in bad, but as in literally weak. Feels like it loses out to almost anything it clashes with, unlike most other charge projectiles that eat through weaker stuff. Theorycraft is telling me they won't be able to out-camp many characters as a result...but they should still wreck havoc on certain approaches (sorry D3, yet again...). Plus the bite is scary enough that a lot of characters won't be able to just rush in after dodging the shot itself, so that's nice.

Recovery is surprisingly lacking, but not quite in the realm of bad. DI up should leave you with plenty of recovery space, but it seems pretty linear.

Really Corrin just seems pretty solid. Not tremendous, but solid. I don't see many obvious weaknesses to exploit aside from their lackluster mobility, which isn't even that bad. It's certainly not good, but they don't feel super sluggish, imo.

Early, probably-wrong prediction is they end up as an upper-mid/lower-high character, in the same veins as someone like Mega Man or R.O.B..


On another note, dragon lance is one of the most fun things in this game. Impractical as it is, I love just using it to fling across the stage.

EDIT: Smilies ruining my poor emote humor aaaahhh

 

[Kofu]

I'm a big user of Palutena's PP Jab to retreat and just put a hitbox out to stuff any reflexive chasing. I've been practicing PP Shield in order to circumvent having to wait for Run or use a slow Walking speed, and trying to find the stick angle for PP uTilt since that would catch more punishes that fSmash couldn't and kill at lower %s than Dash Attack.

PPing is like wavedashing, just a much stricter stick position. It will get very important once we start to flesh out characters with strong grounded frame data.

Honestly, I really want to see a high-level player push Mac to his limit with perfect pivots. I know Espy and Reflex use the character to some degree but I haven't seen enough of their games to see if they use perfect pivots. His combo game skyrockets when PP DTilt, UTilt, and jab are implemented. Probably one of the biggest beneficiaries of the technique. In general, it provides a quick burst of movement that can't be replicated by walking that can help with combos and spacing.

 

[Dr.Smex]

I don't know I think Corrin is a serious contender for top tier, maybe not S but definitely think she's A tier material, She can wall pretty effectively more so than other swordsman, has 2 kill throws and 2 aerials that kill off the top. I hope she gets represented in future tournaments I have high hopes for her.

 

[R3D3MON]

Honestly, I really want to see a high-level player push Mac to his limit with perfect pivots. I know Espy and Reflex use the character to some degree but I haven't seen enough of their games to see if they use perfect pivots. His combo game skyrockets when PP DTilt, UTilt, and jab are implemented. Probably one of the biggest beneficiaries of the technique. In general, it provides a quick burst of movement that can't be replicated by walking that can help with combos and spacing.

So...MVG Sol? He used a lot of perfect pivots. Honestly I recommend watching Neo from MD/VA (S@X series) for flawless PP techniques and control. His PP with roy is soooooo god-like. Definitely an underrated user of PP. Also I would probably recommend watching void specifically for learning how to apply PP into intricate combos/strings.

IMO, PP is too risk-heavy for a technique that requires constant frame-perfect inputs, which is really difficult to do. If you screw up a PP, you are most likely gonna lose stage presence/control and likely be punished in some form (possibly a loss of a stock) since the dash turnaround animation for most characters is unforgiving. The technique requires too much precision and effort for the amount of risk involved with the technique.
Also, rolling achieves the same results that PP does, except with very little risk and chance of failure (unless you get read for spamming rolls). Rolls give you invincibility frames, is extremely quick, and has almost no endlag. Rolling behind opponents is such a good option that I see many top players use it fairly regularly, such as Zero (roll behind and d-tilt in order to pressure shield and do diddy setups) and ESAM (roll behind or toward an unsuspecting opponent and quickly start up-tilting). Honestly I see almost no reason for PP as long as rolls exist since rolls are much more abusable and safer form of positioning/movement than PP. Plus, rolls, shielding, and spot-dodging (which are all virtually lag-less) can all be used and combined for tons of mixups, along with OOS up-smashes and up-b (for certain characters), which puts the effects of PP at an even lesser scale. The only advanced movement option I see being much more widely-used in the future is advanced dash dancing/dance-trotting, since it requires much less effort but still gives a lot of positional benefits and stage control (especially for catching landings and baiting reactions from opponents).

I would love to be proved wrong in the future, but as of now PP is too risk-heavy and does not give enough reward to justify its potential in the meta.

 

[Blobface]

So...MVG Sol? He used a lot of perfect pivots. Honestly I recommend watching Neo from MD/VA (S@X series) for flawless PP techniques and control. His PP with roy is soooooo god-like. Definitely an underrated user of PP. Also I would probably recommend watching void specifically for learning how to apply PP into intricate combos/strings.

IMO, PP is too risk-heavy for a technique that requires constant frame-perfect inputs, which is really difficult to do. If you screw up a PP, you are most likely gonna lose stage presence/control and likely be punished in some form (possibly a loss of a stock) since the dash turnaround animation for most characters is unforgiving. The technique requires too much precision and effort for the amount of risk involved with the technique.
Also, rolling achieves the same results that PP does, except with very little risk and chance of failure (unless you get read for spamming rolls). Rolls give you invincibility frames, is extremely quick, and has almost no endlag. Rolling behind opponents is such a good option that I see many top players use it fairly regularly, such as Zero (roll behind and d-tilt in order to pressure shield and do diddy setups) and ESAM (roll behind or toward an unsuspecting opponent and quickly start up-tilting). Honestly I see almost no reason for PP as long as rolls exist since rolls are much more abusable and safer form of positioning/movement than PP. Plus, rolls, shielding, and spot-dodging (which are all virtually lag-less) can all be used and combined for tons of mixups, along with OOS up-smashes and up-b (for certain characters), which puts the effects of PP at an even lesser scale. The only advanced movement option I see being much more widely-used in the future is advanced dash dancing/dance-trotting, since it requires much less effort but still gives a lot of positional benefits and stage control (especially for catching landings and baiting reactions from opponents).

I would love to be proved wrong in the future, but as of now PP is too risk-heavy and does not give enough reward to justify its potential in the meta.

For the record, Diddy in particular has good rolls (?) and a crazy good D-tilt.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just a few more thoughts on Corrin and Bayo after playing and playing against them the past couple of days:

Corrin: A character that very heavily rewards spacing, maybe even more so than Marth. You can kill ridiculously early if you get the tipper of Fsmash and the jump lance to land and the dragon crunch from the dragon fang shot can break shields if you can bait your opponent to shield a fully charged dragon shot at point blank range. Usmash is surprisingly good at stopping fast falled nairs and dairs to the point that I think that's what it was honestly designed to do. Set ups out of tilts are really nice and the kill throws really help tie things together. Dash attack creates a ton of shield stun. Fsmash is very safe thanks to the chainsaw feature of the sword if you choose to charge it.

On the downside, the recovery seems kind of underwhelming. Using the lance to grip the ledge to recover is kind of predictable and I imagine that a lot of Corrin players will try to counterpick with Omega stages with walls whenever possible. Overall, I'm not that impressed with the range of most of his attacks and getting inside and away from his lance attacks is going to be a common tactic. The dragon fang shot is probably the second worst projectile in the game to have reflected aside from Villager's tree. Not only does it do a ton of damage if it's fully charged, it also stuns you long enough that almost everyone can let rip with one more attack before you go flying to all but assure that it will kill you except at low percentages.

Bayonetta: Pretty much this game's Ice Climbers, underwhelming and awkward if you don't know how to do combos but terrifying if you do. In that same vein, I don't think she's going to be very popular and I'm willing to bet she'll be one of the least used high tier characters. I'm willing to argue that she has the highest learning curve in the game and will be picked up largely by only the most technical players.

 

[Megamang]

I can PP with almost 100% accuracy, and im not that good. I don't think it is as risky as you imply. It is also way, way faster than rolling, in terms of when you get your first hitbox out.

It is utilized in high level play already. Its hard to see, but if you watch top level matches you'll see it pop up on occassion.

Besides, the newest ascended top level player is a PP master. so that should tell us about the future of the meta.

 

[staindgrey]

So, I came to this thread wondering what the state of characters' competitive values were, since I've basically been out of the community since Ryu came out and the patches are probably going to dwindle, or outright stop.

And of course, Zelda's at the bottom, Link's fallen down the ranks, and Lucina is still just a bad Marth.

Guess if I wanna start competing, I'll have to start fresh with some new characters. Hooray.

 

[Halifax?]

A few MUs I'll be looking for if 's buffs are worth anything.



Disjoint vs Rosa for spacing and knocking away Luma. If Marth is viable at a higher level it's a MU he needs to win.



At a lower level these MUs always seemed suspect to me.



Spacing is a bit easier now and Marth's air mobility helps a lot.

 

[TDK]

you know, the more time goes on the less impressed I get with Bayonetta. Having Link-level frame data is terrible for her and quite a few of mer moves are completely unusable, such as all her tilts, her grabs and throws, forward smash [at least up and down smash have some uses.], and dash attack are particularly useless. On top of that, her smashes are further limited by the fact that it isn't a continuous hitbox as long as the arm is out, from what I can tell. Usually, I'm just able to shield it and then attack her while she's still in the smash animation. A lot of her grounded up-close options are awful except Jab and maybe Up B out of shield which can start your combos which will eventually lead into your kill m- oh wait, they don't. Bayonetta's main Witch Twist/Heel Slide/After Burner Kick combos don't kill off the top until very late [not even at 140 or higher], which forces you to fish for Dairs or try to Witch Time, which, may I add, doesn't get rid of Hitboxes and you can still move/put up a shield to beat it, especially if they try to go for a smash. Bayo's combos are great, sure, but she can't really kill out of them [unless I'm missing something] which leaves her at a disadvantage because she doesn't have a quick kill option outside of landing Hit of Dair. Because her grab is around Robin levels and her throws are also some of the worst set of throws in the game [no combo or kill throw], she also has issues beating shields, and because of her high startup she doesn't have very many reliable options out of her own shield except for Up-B, which doesn't come out super quickly, and because she has without a doubt the worst set of rolls in the game, she can't escape up-close pressure as easily as other characters, thus giving her a poor disadvantage except for witch time or bat within.

Bayonetta is a bad character with a few good moves, and her great combo potential is hindered by how difficult or impossible it is to kill out of said combos. She can't reliably fight the opponent up close because of her frame data, if it weren't for Heel Slide she'd have difficulty approaching and also can't reliably force approaches because Bullet Climax aims upwards and is pretty much saying "Hey, I'mma fire my guns, just don't go to a point where you can stand under them and throw a projectile at me" and bullet arts don't have knock back, so they therefore don't have hitstun, and therefore can't force approaches. She lacks a reliable way to get characters off of her when they do get up close due to her slow-to-start moveset and awful rolls, forcing her to rely on approximately 3 moves to actually do anything in those situations, which, even then, have their faults. A decent portion of her move set is completely useless in almost any situation, and whatever moves she can use at a given time will eventually get predictable.

Tl;dr: Combos are cool, but everything else is very iffy. are her 0-to-almost-never-death combos enough? Probably not.

Polite comments back on this, please, we don't need a flame war. I'm sure we'e all mature enough to act civil.

Also, here's a clip where Mewtwo's up smash clanks with the giant arm and the hitbox is just gone while Mewtwo is in the arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBguJYxd2e8

So yeah, you need to clank/shield the initial arm and Bayonetta's free to be attacked while the arm is still out and she's still in the animation. Great.

 

[Zannabluke]

can we get some % data on that boost kick nerf? i'd do it myself but my wii u don't have enough space to download the patch LOL (yes, i've already deleted all previous updates and i'm still 200mb short)