Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mazdamaxsti]

Also worth noting is that for as slow as Bayo jab is, it is probably the best rapid jab in the game on hit. I don't believe you can SDI out, I've never had anyone fall out when I hit them directly in front of me at like, any %, so you'll always get your money's worth when you land this move.

It's Frame 9 but its reward on hit is both consistent and very good.

Fastfallers like Fox can DI down and shield in time for the rapid part. Having good damage for a frame 9 move doesn't matter because she has safer options that do more damage in combos.

 

[Ffamran]

Ignore this i thought people were talking about her neutral b

Speaking of which, Bullet Climax can kill when charged and unlike Cloud, she doesn't have to build meter and can switch between the 2 like it was nothing... Bayleef's got Fox's Blaster through Bullet Arts, Falco's Blaster as a "Bowser Fire Breath / Charizard Flamethrower" style one through Bullet Climax, and Cloud's Blade Beam through charged Bullet Climax in a sense where it's kind of good for killing off-stage... Also, maybe a Ryu Hadouken which is to mess and threaten your approach options. For Bayleef, it's threatening hops. And people say her neutral terrible...

Bayonetta comes from a game where "neutral" isn't exactly good. Advantage and disadvantage, however, are amazing. The ability to continue combos indefinitely and the ability to avoid and recover from bad situations... That's Bayonetta, the character and the game, in a nutshell. She lacks the ability to move and shoot in Smash, but even then, taken from a fighting game standpoint, that's pretty bad neutral when all you can do is move in with average speed, rush in with a burst option, Stiletto in Bayonetta and Afterburner Kick in Smash, or do chip damage while moving slowly. Last part would be great, but she's from a game where there's multiple opponents against her and I think some of them have armor meaning it's not going to stun them.

For Corrin, two words: rising dragon. Corrin seems to be vertically inclined to Ike, Lucina, Marth, and Roy's horizontally inclined game plan. Maybe and outside of FE, even Cloud at times, the Links, and Shulk. The Pits and maybe Robin are more well-rounded. Corrin's more like Meta Knight and guess what they have in common? Wings. Dragons rise and bats fly. Also, Corrin literally has several Shoryuken, dragon punch, moves.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also worth noting is that for as slow as Bayo jab is, it is probably the best rapid jab in the game on hit. I don't believe you can SDI out, I've never had anyone fall out when I hit them directly in front of me at like, any %, so you'll always get your money's worth when you land this move.

It's Frame 9 but its reward on hit is both consistent and very good.

Actually it is possible to SDI out. Start DIing up and out before the repeating hits and then SDI like a madman. I was Pit, naturally. Don't think rage had a major part... Would of saved the replay if not for a random power surge.

 

[Vipermoon]

RE: corrin's roll

It's not good. It's 29 total frames, doesn't go as far as Marth's/Roy's. And it isn't invincible much.

Roy: 4-18, 29 total
Marth: 4-18, 30 total
Corrin: 4-16, 29 total

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bayonetta from what I am seeing appears to have weight independent throws, meaning she has legitimate combos out of Dthrow and Uthrow on the entire cast. At fairly specific ranges, but given her damage output on followups, is a pretty significant deal.

Having a Fthrow that can kill to reiterate is competitively very valuable as well, and Bayo Fthrow has decent base knockback for rage exploits.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

I personally found some success in playing Bayonetta super lame, just dealing good damage with Bullet Arts and Bullet Climax. Most folks get frustrated and end up doing dumb mistakes the leads into a death combo or a Witch Time activation. It's probably not the most optimal way to play her, but it can work out in some cases.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Fthrow isn't really a raw kill throw, it's one of those "oh the smashville platform is on the far right lets grab them and.. JEEZ THAT KILLED AT 50?!" throws

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fthrow isn't really a raw kill throw, it's one of those "oh the smashville platform is on the far right lets grab them and.. JEEZ THAT KILLED AT 50?!" throws

150 at the edge on a midweight no rage is quite good if that's with a Fthrow. Emphasis on Fthrow because of the positional advantage. With rage make that more like 120ish%? For a character with an exceptionally good negative state and damage output, that's really strong.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Random bit on Corrin: I saw an ingame tip that said his up special is invincible on startup. ("While gathering energy " or something was the phrase, I think.) Is Dragon Ascent workable for this sort of purpose?

 

[Ffamran]

Random bit on Corrin: I saw an ingame tip that said his up special is invincible on startup. ("While gathering energy " or something was the phrase, I think.) Is Dragon Ascent workable for this sort of purpose?

So... it's basically a slower, Dolphin Slash then, right? The irony that Dolphin Slash does not involve water, but Dragon Ascent does... Also, Roy would kill for I-frames for his Blazer.

 

[Lavani]

The difference is Dragon Ascent doesn't have invuln on the active frames.

I didn't check the startup though. Depending on how much invuln there is it might explain why it's frame 18.

EDIT: Intangibility is 10-17f for grounded and air versions. Not as good as I was hoping.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

So... it's basically a slower, Dolphin Slash then, right? The irony that Dolphin Slash does not involve water, but Dragon Ascent does... Also, Roy would kill for I-frames for his Blazer.

From my experience, it's significantly harder to gimp Dragon Ascent than Dolphin Slash, at least in my MU. Not only have I F-aired into the invulnerability frames and been hit by the move afterwards, the hitbox surrounds Corrin very well. Dolphin Slash on the other hand has clear vulnerability from behind. Characters who have to overlap hurtbox to hurtbox to connect will usually get bounced away from Dragon Ascent. I have yet to successfully edge-guard Corrin, but characters with real disjoints and intangibility might have a better shot.

 

[Vipermoon]

From my experience, it's significantly harder to gimp Dragon Ascent than Dolphin Slash, at least in my MU. Not only have I F-aired into the invulnerability frames and been hit by the move afterwards, the hitbox surrounds Corrin very well. Dolphin Slash on the other hand has clear vulnerability from behind. Characters who have to overlap hurtbox to hurtbox to connect will usually get bounced away from Dragon Ascent. I have yet to successfully edge-guard Corrin, but characters with real disjoints and intangibility might have a better shot.

Yeah it's really easy to counter. It has huge hitboxes and lots of start-up. Super easy to counter.

 

[C0rvus]

The startup really kills it, and it's vertical distance is mediocre.

 

[Ffamran]

From my experience, it's significantly harder to gimp Dragon Ascent than Dolphin Slash, at least in my MU. Not only have I F-aired into the invulnerability frames and been hit by the move afterwards, the hitbox surrounds Corrin very well. Dolphin Slash on the other hand has clear vulnerability from behind. Characters who have to overlap hurtbox to hurtbox to connect will usually get bounced away from Dragon Ascent. I have yet to successfully edge-guard Corrin, but characters with real disjoints and intangibility might have a better shot.

I meant that because it has I-frames on startup, is a vertical recovery, and is slower than Dolphin Slash, Dragon Ascent basically functions like a slower Dolphin Slash for recovery purposes.

 

[Megamang]

A slower, *safer* and *stronger* dolphin slash.

Maybe not always safer though. I need more experience vs it to know.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If anything... Bullet Climax gives crawls a nice little niche.

 

[Ghostbone]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock.

 

[Y2Kay]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock if you're not greninja.

fixed that for ya dawg

 

[Megamang]

From a grab? I thought her thing was poor throws except fthrow kill.

Has the grab confirm been... confirmed?

 

[Sonicninja115]

From a grab? I thought her thing was poor throws except fthrow kill.

Has the grab confirm been... confirmed?

Up throw-Uair is a kill confirm, but it is really tight. And Dthrow is apparently weight dependent, so I am pretty sure Jab is a situational combo out of it.

 

[Vipermoon]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock if YOU'RE not greninja

fixed that for ya dawg

Fix that for you dawg

 

[FimPhym]

I haven't seen any followup posts so I'm not sure if this has been covered, but someone mentioned that Witch Time is ineffective against projectiles. That's not entirely true. Using it prevents her from taking damage from the projectile, and there seems to be a radius where the projectile user will be affected too. Long-range projectiles aren't threatened but close-range ones are.

I noticed this too, but check out this weird interaction with bullet arts:

Spoiler

Maybe that's the normal range? It's hard for me to test on 3ds and I could be dumb. But it feels way longer range than is usually allowed.

 

[Ghostbone]

From a grab? I thought her thing was poor throws except fthrow kill.

Has the grab confirm been... confirmed?

Up-throw > up-b true combos. (maybe not if they DI away but it's suuuuuper fast lol)

 

[RonNewcomb]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock.

At least Metaknight won't be lonely.

 

[TTTTTsd]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock.

I still want to play the waiting game and see what happens in tournament mostly in relation to good DI.

I think the character's mad good though, if that's any recourse. I just want to see this stuff outside of training, y'know?

 

[Fatmanonice]

What's the estimate for the impact that ZSS's boost kick nerf will have? Less knockback and a new angle obviously means it will kill later but by how much? On the topic of jank, whatever happened to those supposed nerfs that Metaknight got to his uair that had Metaknight mains crying that THE DREAM WAS DEAD last week?

 

[Emblem Lord]

People are gonna think Bayonetta is a lot more dumb when people know the % ranges of her main vertical kill combo (up-b > side-b > up-b > side-b > uair) which confirms of d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, uair, or just raw up-b.

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock.

Exactly. Its not as simple as DI away. She has dozens of variants off her ladders. You can JC witch twist at the end. You can side b or dive kick, you can jump out of witch twist and move toward your opponent and do side b to catch DI away. You can fair before an up b to catch your opponent easier or omit the fair at higher percents since they can DI away.

She has TONS of combo options and right now its hard to tell when to do what to catch what kind of DI.

This will change in a few months once she begins to get optimized.

 

[Ffamran]

Bayonetta's meta in a few weeks will be killing you at 40-60 every stock.

I find it sadistically amusing that half of the DLC characters all do this; Bayonetta's mostly in the air, Cloud's anywhere, and Ryu's on the ground.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Exactly. Its not as simple as DI away. She has dozens of variants off her ladders. You can JC witch twist at the end. You can side b or dive kick, you can jump out of witch twist and move toward your opponent and do side b to catch DI away. You can fair before an up b to catch your opponent easier or omit the fair at higher percents since they can DI away.

She has TONS of combo options and right now its hard to tell when to do what to catch what kind of DI.

This will change in a few months once she begins to get optimized.

This is kinda why I like Bayo tbh. She has all the tools to make DI reads and it's this huge option tree that requires a ton of player awareness vs. like, IDK, the characters I play perhaps (moreso like, Cloud lol).

I'm seriously thinking of learning this character only because I feel like if I master her, I'll be able to do great things and it'll just make me better at reacting to DI and stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bayo is ZSS on hard mode.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bayo is ZSS on hard mode.

Bayo is Samus on good mode.

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's my thoughts on Corrin's Up B recovery; it's got the height of Ganondorf's recovery, if not just a little bit less, but what it lacks in vertical recovery distance, Corrin gains for horizontal recovery distance and some power (as well as being able to be followed up by F-Air). It's somewhat of a respectable move and is just one of many quips Corrin has that are somewhat decent.

As for his Neutral B, that thing is broken more than you can think. Just an uncharged projectile from that is enough to stun your opponent long enough for the second part, the bite, to fully charge and hit them, and there's nothing the opponent can do about it! It's a free high-damaging move that is also a great kill confirm. At first I thought I'd compare it to Mac and Dorf's attacks, but knowing I don't need to fully charge the projectile just to get the same advantage, it makes me think that this attack is the easiest to hit opponents with in terms of the more powerful attacks. The only problem is, is that it's very punishable if blocked by a shield.

This is kinda why I like Bayo tbh. She has all the tools to make DI reads and it's this huge option tree that requires a ton of player awareness vs. like, IDK, the characters I play perhaps (moreso like, Cloud lol).

I'm seriously thinking of learning this character only because I feel like if I master her, I'll be able to do great things and it'll just make me better at reacting to DI and stuff.

Just know this great combo: Witch Time > any Smash Attack > any Smash Attack again. It's fun!

I recommend using her B-Air instead of her Up B in the combo shown from the presentation. I believe B-Air has enough reach to successfully hit after both Side B aerials connect to the opponent. This might have potential for a kill setup if it actually works out.

But if I were on a teams with her, I'd use someone with her frame data (or better) and yet more power when she uses Witch Time. Candidates include:

But the four characters that I'd recommend the most out of would be:

So straight up, Ganondorf has extremely powerful attacks that hit hard, really hard, and if he's in the field with Bayonetta, what would likely result after Witch Time is used is that the opponents are dead, plain and simple. The opponents would probably be around 80% in death from one team combo, or if Ganondorf is placed right, the opponents will be dead just by one D-Smash from Bayonetta into his own reversed Warlock Punch. Farfetched, yes, but with Bayonetta, he's one powerhouse to be paired up with and actually becomes viable in doubles.

With Little Mac, he has some good frame data, but lacks in the ability to hit with aerials. However, considering the opponent is low enough and that F-Smash from Bayonetta is a thing, Little Mac has some leverage to hit with his own powerful attacks with quick succession to Bayonetta's. And if Mac has a KO Punch ready, the opponents will just be dead quickly.

With Mr. Game and Watch, no matter how random his Judge can be, he has the chance to actually hit with his 9. Combine that with his decent aerials and his N-Air, and you have a smoking character that can work well with Bayonetta, especially if Bayo can send opponents to him and basically play Pong with him. While unlike the other characters, who can have guaranteed KO setups alongside Bayonetta, Game and Watch can help her juggle instead.

And finally, Ness, this boy wonder has some powerful attacks and one slow attack that barely ever sees the light of day, which is his PK Flash. With Bayonetta's Witch Time, PK Flash is going to be one of, if not the most, deadly attacks coming from any character in the game in teams with her. Combine this with PK Fire usage, F-Smash all over and high combo potential, Ness is one of the four deadliest characters to use with Bayonetta.

This is just theory, but in doubles, a lot of characters and her make for a great team.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I noticed this too, but check out this weird interaction with bullet arts:

Spoiler

Maybe that's the normal range? It's hard for me to test on 3ds and I could be dumb. But it feels way longer range than is usually allowed.

From what I understand, her Bullet Arts don't count as projectiles. Reflectors don't work on them, Link and Toon Link can't block them with their shields (the one they hold, that is), and so forth. It seems reasonable to conclude they count as physical attacks, as silly as that sounds. As a corollary, I think it's reasonable to conclude that physical attacks are always vulnerable to Witch Time regardless of disjoint, while projectiles may or may not leave the user susceptible depending on distance at the moment Witch Time is used. (Aside: How do Luma and Pikmin factor into this? Including Pikmin latched on to Bayonetta.)

Also, an ingame tip says that Witch Time can slow someone for a maximum of 2 seconds, but if the move is allowed to decay fully then this maximum gets reduced to 1 second.

 

[Y2Kay]

I've had bayonetta mains tell me that Little Mac atcual isn't a good matchup do to his ground speed and frame data

 

[Radical Larry]

I've had bayonetta mains tell me that Little Mac atcual isn't a good matchup do to his ground speed and frame data

When Mac reaches for that ledge, he thinks he gets it but then out pops a high heeled leg!

But in all seriousness, Mac is not a good MU for Bayonetta for not only that reason, but also due to Bayonetta's inability to keep up with Mac's mobility and the fact Mac can literally run under her Bullet Arts Neutral B. Then we have Mac having some very powerful attacks and a hefty kit to use against Bayonetta, despite not having a projectile. And he can also just Side Smash Down Bayonetta's Side B like it was nothing and get some combo confirms off of it, no biggie.

Of course, an even MU with Bayonetta has to be Ganondorf. In that battle, it's not about who strikes, it's about when does it happen and how does it happen. It's like your putting a sloth up against a sloth with better running speed, but weaker attacks.

 

[Das Koopa]

Good news for Marth mains

He has his own Hoo Hah now (kinda)

 

[Lavani]

From what I understand, her Bullet Arts don't count as projectiles. Reflectors don't work on them, Link and Toon Link can't block them with their shields (the one they hold, that is), and so forth. It seems reasonable to conclude they count as physical attacks, as silly as that sounds. As a corollary, I think it's reasonable to conclude that physical attacks are always vulnerable to Witch Time regardless of disjoint, while projectiles may or may not leave the user susceptible depending on distance at the moment Witch Time is used. (Aside: How do Luma and Pikmin factor into this? Including Pikmin latched on to Bayonetta.)

Also, an ingame tip says that Witch Time can slow someone for a maximum of 2 seconds, but if the move is allowed to decay fully then this maximum gets reduced to 1 second.

Rosa's only slowed by Luma being Witch Timed within a certain range. Can't test this too thoroughly by myself on 3DS but perfectly spaced jab1 might be safe, if not then jab2 definitely is. I assume this applies to Pikmin and other projectiles as well.

Also confirming everything you said about Bullet Arts. For the sake of wholeness, neutralB bullets are considered normal projectiles though.

Good news for Marth mains

He has his own Hoo Hah now

He's had this since release and it gets "discovered" every single patch.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Good news for Marth mains

He has his own Hoo Hah now

He always has this kind of combo ever since pre-patch. The uploader flat out says so in the video. Its just that the Bair range buff lets us cover the DI away option for some characters. Even then, this combo only works on some characters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

maining for a extremely short period of time has taught me something

• Don't worry about developing character metas. They'll evolve over time
• Don't worry about maining top tiers. Silly I l know, but I felt like trying main them would stifle the development of smash 4's meta and I wanted to search out the unexplored and under-developed. This isn't a bad endeavor, but I was trying to do it even in the face of me not liking lucario at all after I started to explore his options. Lucario isn't a character that I enjoy, his game plan doesn't suit me.
• Most importantly, STOP FOCUSING SO MUCH ON THE CHARACTER! This usually occurs when I watch smash 4 footage; I get so caught up in discovery and tech that if the players are playing Luigi vs ness, or captain falcon vs fox, I skipp it in favor of lower tier characters and stuff. This means I'm missing out on the player, which is far far more important. Player X could have the most developed neutral game and play Luigi, or player Y could have the clutchest reads and developed punish game playing Fox. I'm missing out on the player playstyles in favor of which character could be the most interesting to watch. Which brings me to
• My view on top tiers. Due to me focusing so much on their game plan, I've tended to look at them as one-dimensional and I believe some of you guys have. If I had seen the differences between Taranito's extremely patient, clutch and space-control ness to FOW's more aggressive, reads-based and mind game ness, I would've seen the game in a whole new light.
• Stop worrying about a game's freedom. I was so hellbent on finding that one character that's reminiscent of Marvel, Melee, GG and BB that my positive view on the game began to diminished greatly. ST had characters with freedom (dhalsim, Claw, Etc...), Karnov's revenge had characters with freedom (Ray, Karnov, Lee, etc...), 3rd strike had characters with freedom (chun li, ken, etc...). Don't worry about it

My mental development lol (don't know if it's on topic, so Ima say some stuff I guess).

Initial impressions: Fox vs corrin

• Her/His Nair is safe/not safe depending on how deep you make them hit your shield
• Ftilt is a killer
• His/her kit can wall you out, so you have to wait a little more than him/her
• Your recovery can get body-bagged by her. You have to mix it up like this is melee. Learn to tech
• Dtilt is a frame trap; don't try to punish it
• You can SDI out of their jab (kinda hard though).
• Her landing options are wild, but situational (talking about pin specially here). Stay at a safe range from them (not too close, not too far) and react accordingly
• She dies pretty quick (don't know how quick though)
• Fsmash has disgusting range Please don't side b close to them omg.
• Uair can kill easily
• Dair ends quick so be weary of that
• Bair is.... ********. Ridiculous range with little start-up and pull-back (she retreats fast as heck). DO NOT FALL FOR THE BAIT THAT MAY COME AFTERWARDS.
• If you get your shield hot with a pin, be patient and wait for a follow up then punish.

And that's all I got to say after a couple of days lol.