Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Witch time punishes are fine and dandy to theorize, but remember its 2v2, not 2v1. So the other guy, not witch timed, is gonna try and stop you from setting up. He'll pretty easily stop a reverse warlock punch.

Probably the best kill setup will be bayo double usmash -> witch twist -> zss or rosa uair ceiling kill, since they are mobile and threatening enough to do that in the midst of things. Double usmash into finishing touch might also be deadly. And Cloud isnt exactly a bad choice for doubles, ever...

Reverse Warlock Punch has armor now, so I suppose you could still rush in and grab him, but it's not quite as easy to stop as you might think. D3 and Ike are generally better choices in doubles as powerhouses though, as they stock tank much better. Dorf is much easier to gimp than them.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...tulations_to_the_winner_of_smashtier_3_vol_6/ Here's my mostly complete results/info thread

And everyone needs to see this Regi play: http://oddshot.tv/shot/tier3gs-201602073175258

Something I noticed during the stream is that Mexico really aren't afraid to go offstage to edgeguard, Leo especially, I mean he's got one of THE characters for it in MK. Also, his Marth was terrifying.

Edit: Cloud dittos be like http://oddshot.tv/shot/tier3gs-2016020743240635

His Marth is terrifying. The problem is that he doesn't use C stick Attack with him and you can see that in his gameplay. It's absolutely necessary with Marth, even more so this patch with this new overtuned move called Ftilt. Yes, I dislike Ftilt... but whatever if they want to give me something stupid like that I'll use it.

 

[dean.]

Random question, is the player Some's tag pronounced like the English "some" or "so-meh?" Leaning towards the latter because Japan.

The latter one.

 

[Luigi player]

Speaking of which... Why don't we see a lot of Luigi players Up Smash like Mario players? It's basically the same hit-wise and safety-wise while having slightly better knockback than Mario's. It's not as good of an angle, Luigi's is 110 degrees to Mario's 83, and the knockback growth is weaker than Dr. Mario's 117, but the same principles are there. Also, pretty sure Up Smash out of run and JC'd Up Smash from Luigi covers way more distance than his bro's. The only "real" worst part about Luigi's Up Smash is the 12% hitbox somewhere which is still good damage on a safe move like that.

You're absolutely right. I don't see enough usmashes from any Luigi that I watch. It's really good with the slide and head invincibility. I find it much easier to hit than Marios (who also lacks a front hitbox), but of course Marios does have a better angle like you said.

Even Mr.Concon or Boss don't use usmash enough, meanwhile if you watch me it's what I'm doing all day...

 

[R3D3MON]

You're absolutely right. I don't see enough usmashes from any Luigi that I watch. It's really good with the slide and head invincibility. I find it much easier to hit than Marios (who also lacks a front hitbox), but of course Marios does have a better angle like you said.

Even Mr.Concon or Boss don't use usmash enough, meanwhile if you watch me it's what I'm doing all day...

Luigi does not have enough ground mobility and movement options to truly take advantage of up-smashes, since a misplaced up-smash can get you punished. Mario is a much better user of reverse up smash and sliding up smash because he has enough mobility to bait and then fade back, and most likely not get punished for doing so (or at least the punishment is minimal). This question has been brought up countless times and other luigi mains already answered this question ages ago (in the other competitive impressions thread), so this really should not even be discussed since it is meaningless.

 

[thehard]

I'll try to get footage of it when I'm not so tired/on mobile, but at the SHI-G tournament Kakera was consistently escaping from >2 uptilts by 9B's Ryu with the most SDI I've ever seen in Smash 4. Like he moved a BF platform's length away. I recall seeing a demonstration of this way back when, but everyone should probably learn it.

 

[Megamang]

And enjoy it for 2 weeks till Ryu's start finally dtilting :b

 

[LancerStaff]

But whatever if they want to give me something stupid like that I'll use it.

Smash 4 patches in a nutshell. Well, Smash 4 in a nutshell.

So Kurogane has mostly complete data on Corrin... I'm bored so I'm just going to make some comparisons to other characters and other observations.

Spoiler

First thing I noticed was the dodges. Man they look bad. Spotdodge and airdodge are invulnerable f3 namely. Spotdodge is only a bit better then fatty level, and while I'm at it Ryu's is right outside fatty level.

Corrin's Fair hits on f7-10, faf 36, 8.5%, angle 65, bkb 40, kbg 99, and good landing lag and at least decent AC.
Pit's Dair hits on f11-12, faf 37, 10%, angle 80/70, bkb 50/40, kbg80, and meh landing lag and outright ends before landing from a SH.

Hmm. HMMM. HMMM. I've heard people say Pit's Dair is his real Fair, and comparing these two moves that sounds about right. Yeah, it combos into itself and other aerials like Corrin's. I promise I won't hijack this into talking about Pit okay?

Looking at Fsmash, the tipper hitbox exists for four frames and (learned this from Vipermoon lurking the Marth forums) it's apparently the lowest priority hitbox. Meaning that if two hitboxes were to hit an opponent the same time as another the higher priority hitbox will be the one that registers. Good example would be comparing Pit's Dsmash to Pit's Ftilt for those at home wondering how the mechanic works. But anyway, there's this weird tipper hitbox that does 15.2 before the most powerful 16.5 hit. I'm assuming if you just stand there you'll never get hit by the most powerful hitbox. Like I said, weird. There's still a lot of stabby dragon bit hanging there after the hitbox goes away, so rush on in and punish. Tipper's on f18, ends 57. Very punishable on shield right?

Dash attack's pretty meh. Comes out f11, last hit on 26, faf is 56. Does 13% total but the last is a measly 3% meaning it's ridiculously unsafe on shield. Funnily you can DA Bayo and have the sword hitbox come out behind her while Corrin pushes her along... So basically unimpressive hitboxes too. Can't think of a situation I'd use this over any other move.

Fastest aerial is Nair at f6. Dunno how the hitboxes work but I'm assuming there's two separate hitboxes orbiting him and doesn't reach below until f11 or so. Fair's f7. No combo breakers or lingering hitboxes to break out of combos it seems.

Frame 6 jumpsquat? That a typo or something?

Aerial DL is f9-10, and from the hop on the ground (not straight off the ground) it's f3-4, although it's indicated that the data's sketchy. Dunno... Wanna know exactly how the hop works before people say it's f3. Myself I doubt it's really that fast.

 

[Radical Larry]

And enjoy it for 2 weeks till Ryu's start finally dtilting :b

I've never seen a Ryu so far that's ever tried doing combos outside of U-Tilt or D-Tilt setups.
Despite having one of the most diverse combo systems in the game, it's what it really devolved into from what I've seen.

 

[Lavani]

Aerial DL is f9-10, and from the hop on the ground (not straight off the ground) it's f3-4, although it's indicated that the data's sketchy. Dunno... Wanna know exactly how the hop works before people say it's f3. Myself I doubt it's really that fast.

Fastest grounded DL can be done is 7f (4f hop 3f stab)

It's insanely fast for how strong and long-ranged it is. Done ASAP can tipper ledgesnaps from onstage too.

 

[Vipermoon]

Smash 4 patches in a nutshell. Well, Smash 4 in a nutshell.

So Kurogane has mostly complete data on Corrin... I'm bored so I'm just going to make some comparisons to other characters and other observations.

Spoiler

First thing I noticed was the dodges. Man they look bad. Spotdodge and airdodge are invulnerable f3 namely. Spotdodge is only a bit better then fatty level, and while I'm at it Ryu's is right outside fatty level.

Corrin's Fair hits on f7-10, faf 36, 8.5%, angle 65, bkb 40, kbg 99, and good landing lag and at least decent AC.
Pit's Dair hits on f11-12, faf 37, 10%, angle 80/70, bkb 50/40, kbg80, and meh landing lag and outright ends before landing from a SH.

Hmm. HMMM. HMMM. I've heard people say Pit's Dair is his real Fair, and comparing these two moves that sounds about right. Yeah, it combos into itself and other aerials like Corrin's. I promise I won't hijack this into talking about Pit okay?

Looking at Fsmash, the tipper hitbox exists for four frames and (learned this from Vipermoon lurking the Marth forums) it's apparently the lowest priority hitbox. Meaning that if two hitboxes were to hit an opponent the same time as another the higher priority hitbox will be the one that registers. Good example would be comparing Pit's Dsmash to Pit's Ftilt for those at home wondering how the mechanic works. But anyway, there's this weird tipper hitbox that does 15.2 before the most powerful 16.5 hit. I'm assuming if you just stand there you'll never get hit by the most powerful hitbox. Like I said, weird. There's still a lot of stabby dragon bit hanging there after the hitbox goes away, so rush on in and punish. Tipper's on f18, ends 57. Very punishable on shield right?

Dash attack's pretty meh. Comes out f11, last hit on 26, faf is 56. Does 13% total but the last is a measly 3% meaning it's ridiculously unsafe on shield. Funnily you can DA Bayo and have the sword hitbox come out behind her while Corrin pushes her along... So basically unimpressive hitboxes too. Can't think of a situation I'd use this over any other move.

Fastest aerial is Nair at f6. Dunno how the hitboxes work but I'm assuming there's two separate hitboxes orbiting him and doesn't reach below until f11 or so. Fair's f7. No combo breakers or lingering hitboxes to break out of combos it seems.

Frame 6 jumpsquat? That a typo or something?

Aerial DL is f9-10, and from the hop on the ground (not straight off the ground) it's f3-4, although it's indicated that the data's sketchy. Dunno... Wanna know exactly how the hop works before people say it's f3. Myself I doubt it's really that fast.

Spot dodge, okay. No reason to complain about the air dodge though. Fairly normal. And remember, a 98 weight is pretty high (and don't mention Pit and his combination of dodges and weight, idc lol).

Fsmash is easy to understand if you think about it. Before frame 18, the limb is not completely extended. The 15.2% hit is still the tipper in the same place on the limb, it just isn't at max range yet. Many characters can't punish the 16% tipper. Too far away. Oh and it ends on 56 (see what I mean @Kurogane Hammer )

Dash Attack is good! It's a good punish tool out of a run where your only other option is Dash Grab (bad unless you have kill throw available) and DL. It's really easy to cross up shields which may lessen your punishment especially if you manage to barely cross it up so they can't tell which side you're on. 13% is really good damage for it and the knockback angle sets up into Fair or if at very low %, Utilt. It also eats up landings. Here's another situation: it beats Bayo's broken counter cuz multihit.

Frame 6 and 7 of Nair is the strong hit of both the sword and the limb in front and behind. It hits in front/below probably before 11.

I knew it was a F6 jumpsquat as soon as I first used the character. He has a sword and a 98 weight so no big deal. It sucks because I use both him and Marth, so I'd love it if they had the same JS so I don't have to adapt to different jump timings.

 

[bc1910]

More evidence that Sheik is the main thing holding Greninja back.

Top 8 at SHIG is really solid though, and Some's done it twice (3 times?) now. It's not just any old regional. This and top 3 at Avalon at least shows me that Greninja has an "America Problem" and is much higher than 25th in the game.

Incidentally, I've found that Greninja's Dair can't be countered by Corrin's Counter Surge because Greninja jumps away too quickly. Worth bearing in mind when juggling him; if you read an airdodge and Corrin counters, you're still safe.

 

[MistressRemilia]

More evidence that Sheik is the main thing holding Greninja back.

Top 8 at SHIG is really solid though, and Some's done it twice (3 times?) now. It's not just any old regional. This and top 3 at Avalon at least shows me that Greninja has an "America Problem" and is much higher than 25th in the game.

Incidentally, I've found that Greninja's Dair can't be countered by Corrin's Counter Surge because Greninja jumps away too quickly. Worth bearing in mind when juggling him; if you read an airdodge and Corrin counters, you're still safe.

Game&Watch is glad to welcome you in the " America Problem " character community

 

[SaltyKracka]

After some more time with the new patch, I have come to a conclusion.

Bayo, and notably her DownB and Dair, are the most farcical excuses for "game design" I've seen since Little Mac.

 

[meleebrawler]

Game&Watch is glad to welcome you in the " America Problem " character community

Characters America doesn't like:

Characters Japan doesn't like:

 

[Tizio Random]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R5VZ1FGmPE
I think they messed up the value of the knockback multiplier on Corrin's counter. There's no way this was intended.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For ****s and giggles I'm gonna do a quick list of Bayo variant kill confirms on Pit on FD in training. Obviously DI will effect different combos in different ways. I had the damage counter set at 75%.

Up b, fair 1, up b, side b, side b, uair

Up b, side b, up b, side b, uair - her basic ladder kill confirm

Up b, fair 1, up b, side b, side b, uair

Up b, fair 1, side b, side b, up b, uair

Up b, fair 1, up b, side b, uair

d-tilt, up b, side b, side b, up b, fair chain

d-tilt, fair 1, side b, side b, uair

Dive kick, up b, side b, uair - Need to delay the side B to get maximum hitstun

Dive kick, dive kick, up b, fair chain

Dive kick, up b, fair 1, up b, uair or fair chain

utilt, side b, up b, sideb, upb, fair chain or uair - This one you really need to be frame perfect and the second side b needs a slight delay after the first up b but holy **** this one looks so stylish

Dive kick, side b, up b, fair, up b, fair chain


This isnt even every single variant.

She can combine with nairs and uairs and there is probably more utilt stuff.

The key to catching DI away is to delay side bs or jump cancel into then side b after the up b.

Different combos are better at catching certain DI. Fair 1 after up b seems to be the easiest thing to SDI and mess up your combos but you can just do a different version of that combo.

 

[Dr.Smex]

That Kakera match is textbook on how to fight Ryu. Ryu has an amazing boxing game and a great punishes that he can get alot of mileage from but has an average mobility and low range on his tools and can be kept away effectively. Kakera rolled alot though and everytime 9B read one of his rolls he lost a stock. really interesting how Kakera prevented 9B from playing close range at all, he kept poking his shield and ran away.

 

[DungeonMaster]

For ****s and giggles I'm gonna do a quick list of Bayo variant kill confirms on Pit on FD in training. Obviously DI will effect different combos in different ways. I had the damage counter set at 75%.

It is very cool stuff, and lots of fun in training mode. Sadly anything with a F-air in it can be DI and SDI'ed out of down and away into airdodge and that's the end of it.
Although right now it's fairly easy to get these to work on training dummies, my inclination is that the ranges on these combos are actually much more narrow and much tighter than the counter indicates and require specific aerial positioning, reading your opponent's aerial DI and SDI.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I actually stated that. Fair 1 is not hard to DI.

She still has hella combo potential and imo fair 1 stuff not being viable makes it easier to optimize her. No need to waste time trying to master the timing on this thing if we know it doesnt work.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I actually stated that. Fair 1 is not hard to DI.

She still has hella combo potential and imo fair 1 stuff not being viable makes it easier to optimize her. No need to waste time trying to master the timing on this thing if we know it doesnt work.

I feel like Fair1 is fine, just not Fair2 and 3 IMO.

If they DI out for Fair1 I would assume you can Side-B and follow so there's generally an option for most everything, so to speak. Like, every time you feel like she can't do something, you realize with the right execution and reactions that she can, and it's like.....mmmm, yeah.

I'd only ever use Fair2 and Fair3 for damage at low% if I ever hit with Fair, or maybe to end combos if I run out of divekicks.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Who remembers when everyone was freaking out over Swordfighter's Chakram 0-Death?

Because that's basically where we're at when it comes to Bayonetta. Someone finds a bunch of **** in training mode, people call it broken, and then you never hear from it again. I'm not sold on this "Bayonetta is high/top tier" notion until she starts taking names.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Who remembers when everyone was freaking out over Swordfighter's Chakram 0-Death?

Because that's basically where we're at when it comes to Bayonetta. Someone finds a bunch of **** in training mode, people call it broken, and then you never hear from it again. I'm not sold on this "Bayonetta is high/top tier" notion until she starts taking names.

The reason I think she's good isn't because she has crazy kill combos. It's because she has amazing advantage and disadvantage, that's pretty irrefutable honestly IMO. She will build damage on a confirm and she can escape most any sticky situation (divekick clears like half of FD alone, not counting Witch Twist, additional jumps, or Witch Time).

I'm pretty sold on her ability solely because of her confirmed really good aspects, honestly. It's pretty hard to say the character isn't good, it's just obviously not possible to quantify exactly how good she is because we're like not even a week in.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If anything Fair 1 stuff might just be regulated to low percent confirms only, where DI doesnt affect her combos as much.

And yeah what makes Bayo golden is her disadvantage. Escaping trap situations in this game is super important and it means she only needs to fear REAL kill confirms.

Barring that her opponent needs to get a hard read but we know thats not what this games meta is. The chars that need reads dont matter as much and the chars that get out of disadvantage easily are all strong and thats one of the reasons.

 

[R3D3MON]

Who remembers when everyone was freaking out over Swordfighter's Chakram 0-Death?

Because that's basically where we're at when it comes to Bayonetta. Someone finds a bunch of **** in training mode, people call it broken, and then you never hear from it again. I'm not sold on this "Bayonetta is high/top tier" notion until she starts taking names.

Yeah, this really reminds me of the Cloud craze a week or two after his release. Except this is worse because these Bayo kill confirms have not even been completely proven in matches. The fact that people are complaining about a character that was deisgned to have a lot of combos and kill confirms just show how much more combo DI/SDI and survival DI/SDI (plus DI mixups and SDI into the ground, etc) practice we need with every combo/string interaction in the game, and people should really learn to explore ALL of the amazing defensive options this game provides. So we just gotta keep practicing more

 

[Peppermint1201]

Who remembers when everyone was freaking out over Swordfighter's Chakram 0-Death?

Because that's basically where we're at when it comes to Bayonetta. Someone finds a bunch of **** in training mode, people call it broken, and then you never hear from it again. I'm not sold on this "Bayonetta is high/top tier" notion until she starts taking names.

This is a pretty bad example. I might be wrong but if I feel like I heard that the Chakram infinite could only be done with large mii swordfighter. Even if that's not the case it's still an infinite belonging to a character that is low tier with and without their full moveset. Bayonetta's combos are more practical and they are on top of an already good character. Of course Bayonetta will seem bad for not "taking any names" -- she's been out for FOUR DAYS. Besides, we haven't exactly had a chance to see the Chakram stuff in tournament because most tournaments these days use 1111 miis.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If we are finding death confirms day one it shows just how much potential she has. You think we are not gonna have a potent character even if we find escapes for every single combo?

No it doesnt work that way. Her death confirms more then likely will simply become 30% to 60% combos, which is still MONSTROUS.

And I'm willing to bet her death confirms will still work on a select few chars, same with Ryu. And just like Ryu although his death confirms are SDIable he still gets insane damage and positioning because his confirms are attached to a char with strong options.

Swordfighter is not in the same league as him or Bayo. You can see that just looking at their buttons and specials.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

So there is a:

/ in top 8 for this Japanese tourney. Pretty cool.

For the Mexico Regional Tourney, Top 8 was

1. Serge/
2. Leo//
3. Regi
4. Pollo

5. Javi
5.Bryanz
7. D~Artik ???
7. Felix

 

[TTTTTsd]

If we are finding death confirms day one it shows just how much potential she has. You think we are not gonna have a potent character even if we find escapes for every single combo?

No it doesnt work that way. Her death confirms more then likely will simply become 30% to 60% combos, which is still MONSTROUS.

And I'm willing to bet her death confirms will still work on a select few chars, same with Ryu. And just like Ryu although his death confirms are SDIable he still gets insane damage and positioning because his confirms are attached to a char with strong options.

Swordfighter is not in the same league as him or Bayo. You can see that just looking at their buttons and specials.

^^^^^

Her death confirms aren't why I'm hype, it's because if we turn them into not Death confirms by adjusting for DI we still get, as stated, MASSIVE damage and good position. This is ignoring the disadvantaged state and whatnot, aka the one that doesn't really exist for the most part (outside of up close stuff unfortunately, but if you're launched anywhere significant you can run away fairly well).

She has ways to kill outside of these death combos including Divekick confirms into Dair or just Dair stuff in general, not counting Bair or Witch Time alongside it. Her edgeguarding is going to be unreal too cause her Nair is spin2win offstage.

I don't like the idea of Day 1 being used to decide total viability, but if we find good stuff on Day 1 (which also happened with Cloud) I think it's worth considering, to some degree.

 

[Routa]

a character that is either worst in the game or bottom 3 without question, even when their full moveset is allowed.

-removed-

I would like to hear the reasoning behind this bold statement. I mean I can understand your opinion about Swordfighter being bottom 3 with 1111 Guest set, but with Any Size XXXX?

 

[Nobie]

Do you think people will get good enough to exploit Bayonetta's evasion techniques without triggering Bat Within, or maybe even purposely trigger it with a lighter attack and attacking where she will be?

Also, I sometimes wonder if Smash players aren't a little too greedy when it comes to buffs. Mewtwo got a whole litany of amazing buffs last patch, and people STILL want weight buffs and a combo down throw. Lucina and Marth get buffed to high heaven but as long as they don't have low landing lag fairs (even though the move auto-cancels!), crazy throws, and the ability to double fair people seem to doubt their tournament potential.

Last thought: ZSS and Sheik's nerfs are such that they don't want to undo the lab work and practice that their mains have put into their characters. Make them slightly less effective but still retain those tools. The difference between them and old Luigi is that "down throw into whatever" was actually stifling the rest of his moveset.

 

[TheMiSP]

For the Mexico Regional Tourney, Top 8 was

1. Serge/
2. Leo//
3. Pollo
5. Javi
5.Bryanz
7. D~Artik ???
7. Felix

Didn't Regi get 3rd? Saw him lose to Leo in Losers Finals.

 

[Nah]

Also, I sometimes wonder if Smash players aren't a little too greedy when it comes to buffs. Mewtwo got a whole litany of amazing buffs last patch, and people STILL want weight buffs and a combo down throw. Lucina and Marth get buffed to high heaven but as long as they don't have low landing lag fairs (even though the move auto-cancels!), crazy throws, and the ability to double fair people seem to doubt their tournament potential.

Some players are yeah. Some people still want Robin buffs despite 1.1.0 being huge for the character and she even got some very slight buffs in 1.1.3. Literally all I want is for her jumpsquat to go from 7 frames to 5 frames and even if that doesn't happen I'll be fine. I also think that Mewtwo's buffs were great and that it doesn't need much more besides like a frame or two shaved off of the start-up of jab 1 or Nair if anything at all. These hitbox changes sound like they could be pretty nice for Marcina.

But a lot of people just want easy/crazy **** instead of working with what they got, when what they got isn't really bad. Such is human nature. Oh well.

 

[Mario766]

I'll try to get footage of it when I'm not so tired/on mobile, but at the SHI-G tournament Kakera was consistently escaping from >2 uptilts by 9B's Ryu with the most SDI I've ever seen in Smash 4. Like he moved a BF platform's length away. I recall seeing a demonstration of this way back when, but everyone should probably learn it.

Been there for months thanks to Nojinko.

People don't wanna learn the Ryu mu tho

Also uhh..Ike's scary this patch. 80 percent is death for every light fast faller and his reward is higher on hit...Japan needs to stop sleeping on Ike before all hell breaks loose

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VgMVJAXxrM I just want to put this out there. This doesn't have any unreal players, but it still shows that this guy, without doing any crazy combos or anything, managed to do really well. Bayonetta doesn't need to do 50% combos do do well, she has a good moveset.

 

[DE235]

Been there for months thanks to Nojinko.

People don't wanna learn the Ryu mu tho

Also uhh..Ike's scary this patch. 80 percent is death for every light fast faller and his reward is higher on hit...Japan needs to stop sleeping on Ike before all hell breaks loose

No let them pay for their impudence.

 

[Rikkhan]

Who remembers when everyone was freaking out over Swordfighter's Chakram 0-Death?

Because that's basically where we're at when it comes to Bayonetta. Someone finds a bunch of **** in training mode, people call it broken, and then you never hear from it again. I'm not sold on this "Bayonetta is high/top tier" notion until she starts taking names.

Except I already see people killing with ladder combos like 9B doing this several times against other tourney players, granted it's just friendlies and people maybe don't know to DI but still is already happening. She also has the option to adjust her combo to the oponnent DI, it demands quick reaction time tho.

Also instead of being greddy with the 0-death combos you could just play safe and do ~35% combos because at 70%+ WT will end stocks, I'll say it's more important to lab kill combos/edge guards at 70%+ because if you whiff WT you need a back up plan to end stocks quickly she can't afford to play enraged oponnents.

 

[Mario766]

No let them pay for their impudence.

Time to lab out dual stick sdi.

 

[DanGR]

Some of you guys are wondering if Bayometa is mid tier or not. I'm over here concerned for the balance of the game, trying to wrap my head around the complete absurdity that is witch time.

His Marth is terrifying. The problem is that he doesn't use C stick Attack with him and you can see that in his gameplay. It's absolutely necessary with Marth, even more so this patch with this new overtuned move called Ftilt. Yes, I dislike Ftilt... but whatever if they want to give me something stupid like that I'll use it.

Ftilt now has a duration only one frame more than Rosa dtilt, but with a 12% tipper hitbox attached to it, and no commitment against turning around afterwards. Goodness gracious.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I would like to hear the reasoning behind this bold statement. I mean I can understand your opinion about Swordfighter being bottom 3 with 1111 Guest set, but with Any Size XXXX?

Alright, that was an exaggeration. That being said, it's still true that Mii Sword with all of their moves is a much worse character than Bayonetta.