Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

If any of her death combos turn out to be true I sure hope she gets nerfed, or we can say bye bye to the games balance.

Balance is overrated.

The biggest most hype fighting games ever played competitively of all time were MvC2 and Melee.

Both have horrible balance.

 

[Locke 06]

Bayo should've gotten Link fsmashed like 3 times in that video. Near the ledge. For someone as light as her, you can't afford to make those mistakes. I disagree that her "disadvantage" is great. Bat Within is nice, but the numbers on her dodges are awful/f5 intangible airdodge/spotdodge and f6 intangible rolls with 10 more endlag frames than Sheik's roll. You can't dive kick away if you've already used/missed a side-B. Witch time is fantastic, but it's still losing to shield upon landing.

Punishing witch twist OoS/on whiff and staying out of its range while applying pressure is how you can take advantage of her.

You see Nyanko do what every Bayonetta has learned: you get 1 or 2 full combos at low/low-mid% that rewards you heavily, but then after that, you fish for BAir to kill.

What's important to see from that video and her numbers is that Bayonetta's FAir1 has 3 hitboxes with 3 very different angles. 56° highest base knockback of the 3 is possibly for FAir2, 27° is most likely for dive kick, and 70° least amount of knockback is for up-B.

Bayonetta as a tourney character will forever be held back by the lack of a good training mode, poor AI computers, and being a dysfunctional character online.

 

[Radical Larry]

If any of her death combos turn out to be true I sure hope she gets nerfed, or we can say bye bye to the games balance.

Well, there may be a patch update in the future if that is the case. We know for certain there will have to be one for Corrin's glitch.

 

[Smog Frog]

death combos dont instantly make you the best of the best ()

but when you have other stupid things on top of them, then you are the among best of the best()

is the only queen of smash 4 that isnt blonde

 

[Starcutter]

I feel like Kirby is underrated. He's got good matchups with a lot of the high tiers, as well as having decent kill options.
I think next tier list he will be higher, if not only for his weight buff making him more viable in tournament play.

I don't think there's too much else wrong with the tier list, and as I don't know too much about characters I either don't play or don't regularly play against in tournament I can't say much about them.

 

[Thinkaman]

*stuff about Zelda fair/bair*

Let's be clear about something:

Zelda bair is the single strongest (non-special) aerial in the entire game, by any metric.

It also hits on frame 6.

This means its knockback-relative-to-startup is chart-topping; the only competition is extreme-case moves like Rising Uppercut, Rest, and Boost Kick, which have far less range and far more endlag.

Zelda fair, which is weaker and hits a whole 50% later, is still incomparably stronger than any other aerial you can consider; even the knee.

Yeah, the knee has a much better sourspot and late hitbox. It also doesn't hit until frame 14, has 5/7 frames more landing lag, and 6/8 frames less safety on block. It also can't be done out of SHAD.

Zelda bair (and its little brother fair) is an extreme proposition: You get the strongest aerial in the game, at an absurdly fast startup, decent range, and workable landing lag. The price you pay for this (again: the best) is a strict hitbox, dismal sourspots, and a poor autocancel.

What holds this monstrocity back is not the weaknesses of the move itself, but the context of it being held in check by a 6f jumpsquat, average airspeed, and a moveset that provides no reliable mixups leading into it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bayo should've gotten Link fsmashed like 3 times in that video. Near the ledge. For someone as light as her, you can't afford to make those mistakes. I disagree that her "disadvantage" is great. Bat Within is nice, but the numbers on her dodges are awful/f5 intangible airdodge/spotdodge and f6 intangible rolls with 10 more endlag frames than Sheik's roll. You can't dive kick away if you've already used/missed a side-B. Witch time is fantastic, but it's still losing to shield upon landing.

Punishing witch twist OoS/on whiff and staying out of its range while applying pressure is how you can take advantage of her.

You see Nyanko do what every Bayonetta has learned: you get 1 or 2 full combos at low/low-mid% that rewards you heavily, but then after that, you fish for BAir to kill.

What's important to see from that video and her numbers is that Bayonetta's FAir1 has 3 hitboxes with 3 very different angles. 56° highest base knockback of the 3 is possibly for FAir2, 27° is most likely for dive kick, and 70° least amount of knockback is for up-B.

Bayonetta as a tourney character will forever be held back by the lack of a good training mode, poor AI computers, and being a dysfunctional character online.

lolwut

Not everyone has to rely just on this games crap training mode and online play.

That last bit just made no sense.

 

[C0rvus]

Re: Kirby

I thought kill options were among Kirby's bigger issues. Also his neutral being as bad as it is really makes it hard for me to put him any higher than mid tier. I admit beyond watching the occasional MikeKirby set I am ignorant to how he plays in high level. But what are his high tier MUs like? I hear he gets bodied by Yoshi, probably loses to Rosalina, Sheik, Ryu, Fox, Ness, ROB, Meta Knight, Ike, Sonic, Diddy, Cloud, etc. That's just off the top of my head.

 

[Locke 06]

lolwut

Not everyone has to rely just on this games crap training mode and online play.

That last bit just made no sense.

Not everyone, but not a whole lot of people enjoy being a DI dummy for hours on end.

 

[Radical Larry]

Let's be clear about something:

Zelda bair is the single strongest (non-special) aerial in the entire game, by any metric.

It also hits on frame 6.

This means its knockback-relative-to-startup is chart-topping; the only competition is extreme-case moves like Rising Uppercut, Rest, and Boost Kick, which have far less range and far more endlag.

Zelda fair, which is weaker and hits a whole 50% later, is still incomparably stronger than any other aerial you can consider; even the knee.

Yeah, the knee has a much better sourspot and late hitbox. It also doesn't hit until frame 14, has 5/7 frames more landing lag, and 6/8 frames less safety on block. It also can't be done out of SHAD.

Zelda bair (and its little brother fair) is an extreme proposition: You get the strongest aerial in the game, at an absurdly fast startup, decent range, and workable landing lag. The price you pay for this (again: the best) is a strict hitbox, dismal sourspots, and a poor autocancel.

What holds this monstrocity back is not the weaknesses of the move itself, but the context of it being held in check by a 6f jumpsquat, average airspeed, and a moveset that provides no reliable mixups leading into it.

Actually, two aerials beat Zelda's B-Air in damage; Yoshi's D-Air and Link's F-Air. Zelda has the speed and KB for the aerial, just not the damage output.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Re: Kirby

I thought kill options were among Kirby's bigger issues. Also his neutral being as bad as it is really makes it hard for me to put him any higher than mid tier. I admit beyond watching the occasional MikeKirby set I am ignorant to how he plays in high level. But what are his high tier MUs like? I hear he gets bodied by Yoshi, probably loses to Rosalina, Sheik, Ryu, Fox, Ness, ROB, Meta Knight, Ike, Sonic, Diddy, Cloud, etc. That's just off the top of my head.

Rob is CLEARLY in Kirby's favor and Fox CLEARLY even. Sheik is close to even.

The fact that you didn't even mention Luigi, yet said Fox and Rob, which is way off, makes me think you don't know much about Kirby

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, I said I didn't, and those were characters off the top of my head. So yeah, Luigi beats him too.

I don't see how ROB could "CLEARLY" be in Kirby's favor. Mind elaborating on that one? I don't see it at all tbh.

Spread correct information instead of getting buttmad when people are wrong about your character.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Balance is overrated.

The biggest most hype fighting games ever played competitively of all time were MvC2 and Melee.

Both have horrible balance.

Brawl must be the hypest **** then.
But seriously, do you want to see a top 8 full of Bayos?
I mean it will most likely be more entertaining than pre nerf Diddy thanks to WT but it's still going to ruin the game for many many people.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't have an issue with calling Bayonetta good but we're like, not even a week in. Top tier? Maybe. But a QUEEN? Rather, in the same paradigm as Sheik and ZSS?

We know like, next to nothing. We have death combos that I've seen in training mode and against what appears to be poor DI (at least death combos below like, 50-60) and some really impressive things but....that's all the tournament footage we have of her and it's against Link. Like, I think jumping the shark is an understatement.

I think the character is damn good and I won't downplay what I consider to be her great assets but.....let's relax a little.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I don't have an issue with calling Bayonetta good but we're like, not even a week in. Top tier? Maybe. But a QUEEN? Rather, in the same paradigm as Sheik and ZSS?

We know like, next to nothing. We have death combos that I've seen in training mode and against what appears to be poor DI (at least death combos below like, 50-60) and some really impressive things but....that's all the tournament footage we have of her and it's against Link. Like, I think jumping the shark is an understatement.

I think the character is damn good and I won't downplay what I consider to be her great assets but.....let's relax a little.

I'd rather not relax and be happy when proven wrong than the other way round.
I also don't like putting time into things when it gets nerfed or patched out later on, like her DJ glitch for example.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawl must be the hypest **** then.
But seriously, do you want to see a top 8 full of Bayos?
I mean it will most likely be more entertaining than pre nerf Diddy thanks to WT but it's still going to ruin the game for many many people.

If I lose to a Bayo I know she put in the work.

When I lost to Diddy he could have very well just been a pocket character.

So what do you think my opinion is on the situation?

Also Bayo is not dethroning Sheik or ZSS imo.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

If I lose to a Bayo I know she put in the work.

When I lost to Diddy he could have very well just been a pocket character.

So what do you think my opinion is on the situation?

Also Bayo is not dethroning Sheik or ZSS imo.

Unless none of her death combos end up working, I think she will.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd rather not relax and be happy when proven wrong than the other way round.
I also don't like putting time into things when it gets nerfed or patched out later on, like her DJ glitch for example.

I'd entertain this idea if Meta Knight didn't have Death Combos akin to hitting someone in neutral and then killing them off of it as well, except without the whole being tall thing. Very different characters yes, but he also does this a lot sooner than I've seen Bayo do it in tournament when played optimally (it's either that or around the same time).

Which of these two takes more work? I think we'd sooner see an MK insurrection than the other way around if we're gonna talk about killing people really early off of a neutral conversion. If people are going to value that, they're going to use the character who can do it out of a burst mobility option with 5 jumps and a teleport move because he's also more convenient to play.

Note: MK is good at a lot of things I'm aware, but killing people mad early with good DI reads and conversions via Uair happens to be one of them, obv.

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, two aerials beat Zelda's B-Air in damage; Yoshi's D-Air and Link's F-Air. Zelda has the speed and KB for the aerial, just not the damage output.

If we are going by pure damage output, the Bowser nair is also more.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'd entertain this idea if Meta Knight didn't have Death Combos akin to hitting someone in neutral and then killing them off of it as well, except without the whole being tall thing. Very different characters yes, but he also does this a lot sooner than I've seen Bayo do it in tournament when played optimally (it's either that or around the same time).

Which of these two takes more work? I think we'd sooner see an MK insurrection than the other way around if we're gonna talk about killing people really early off of a neutral conversion. If people are going to value that, they're going to use the character who can do it out of a burst mobility option with 5 jumps and a teleport move because he's also more convenient to play.

Note: MK is good at a lot of things I'm aware, but killing people mad early with good DI reads and conversions via Uair happens to be one of them, obv.

Doing kill combos with Bayo doesn't require much work though.
We're not even past the first week and everyone and his cat can execute them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doing kill combos with Bayo doesn't require much work though.
We're not even past the first week and everyone and his cat can execute them.

So are you telling me that they're easier than doing it with a character who requires even less inputs and has an easier neutral to play with the benefit of his combo working even better on floaties?

If this is what it was all about, we'd be seeing a lot more of Sir Knight. I still haven't been shown how it's any less convenient to opt with Meta Knight if you want to solely do this.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So are you telling me that they're easier than doing it with a character who requires even less inputs and has an easier neutral to play with the benefit of his combo working even better on floaties?

If this is what it was all about, we'd be seeing a lot more of Sir Knight. I still haven't been shown how it's any less convenient to opt with Meta Knight if you want to solely do this.

Thing is that not only her damage output and kill confirms are amazing though.
She excels at a lot of things, including disadvantaged state, offstage stuff and recovery.
She is also one of the few characters that can play the neutral passive aggressive and get away with it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Balance is overrated.

The biggest most hype fighting games ever played competitively of all time were MvC2 and Melee.

Both have horrible balance.

ive heard this Argument before.

Fighting games that have horrible balance and are still awesome are games that have characters that can do literally everything under sun, thanks to their absolutely ridiculous design and game mechanics. This game is closer to ST than Marvel and having good balance is going to be a bit important in this case.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Thing is that not only her damage output and kill confirms are amazing though.
She excels at a lot of things, including disadvantaged state, offstage stuff and recovery.
She is also one of the few characters that can play the neutral passive aggressive and get away with it.

This doesn't sound largely unfamiliar to me however.......it sounds very familiar, kind of like the guy I talked about. Like, until I see this terrible Bayonetta apocalypse which I still highly doubt will happen because learning curve beyond combos, I'll retract literally everything I say here.

Until then, I'm not budging.

 

[san.]

Can someone go through Bayo's disadvantaged state?

What happens after getting out with witch twist? Is it easy to outmaneuver opponents and avoid juggle situations? From what I know, she can only use those specials a limited number of times without hitting the opponent or using a double jump.

How are her landing options once a special has been used and she has to land with lag (or the climax landing lag cancel)?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This doesn't sound largely unfamiliar to me however.......it sounds very familiar, kind of like the guy I talked about. Like, until I see this terrible Bayonetta apocalypse which I still highly doubt will happen because learning curve beyond combos, I'll retract literally everything I say here.

Until then, I'm not budging.

Man I hope you're right and I'm just overreacting.

Can someone go through Bayo's disadvantaged state?

What happens after getting out with witch twist? Is it easy to outmaneuver opponents and avoid juggle situations? From what I know, she can only use those specials a limited number of times without hitting the opponent or using a double jump.

How are her landing options once a special has been used and she has to land with lag (or the climax landing lag cancel)?

Yes it's pretty easy if you haven't used anything else. You can dABK or ABK to get away fast, jump, or when you know your opponent wants to punish you, you can throw out WT.
dABK is a pretty safe way to land because it doesn't have much lag and covers quite a bit of distance in a very short time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

dABK is very good based on stage positioning and where you're being sent/chased from, however I believe it suffers greatly on platform stages such as Battlefield where you're likely going to land on a platform before you touch ground or go very far.

I think Bayonetta and platforms don't generally mesh well honestly, from my experimentation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ive heard this Argument before.

Fighting games that have horrible balance and are still awesome are games that have characters that can do literally everything under sun, thanks to their absolutely ridiculous design and game mechanics. This game is closer to ST than Marvel and having good balance is going to be a bit important in this case.

ST has horrible balance.

It has the status as the longest competitive life span of any fighter.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

dABK is very good based on stage positioning and where you're being sent/chased from, however I believe it suffers greatly on platform stages such as Battlefield where you're likely going to land on a platform before you touch ground or go very far.

I think Bayonetta and platforms don't generally mesh well honestly, from my experimentation.

Yeah I feel that too. I had multiple occasions where the middle platform of BF ruined my combo because I just ended up landing directly on it with uSpecial. She doesn't really need platforms with her sick mobility anyway.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I feel that too. I had multiple occasions where the middle platform of BF ruined my combo because I just ended up landing directly on it with uSpecial. She doesn't really need platforms with her sick mobility anyway.

Platforms are annoying using her, yeah. The big issue comes in when you use Up+B (as mentioned) or try and divekick from anything but a shorthop, which REALLY linearizes how you have to use divekick here. In addition, running away from platform pressure with Divekick isn't.....ideal.

Kinda funny how platform stages are arguably her worst and actually do get in the way of the gameplan presented.

 

[apparently fuz]

Man I hope you're right and I'm just overreacting.


Yes it's pretty easy if you haven't used anything else. You can dABK or ABK to get away fast, jump, or when you know your opponent wants to punish you, you can throw out WT.
dABK is a pretty safe way to land because it doesn't have much lag and covers quite a bit of distance in a very short time.

Until you dABK offstage which is when you're pretty much screwed.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ST has horrible balance.

It has the status as the longest competitive life span of any fighter.

Balrog, O.Sagat, Claw, Ryu, Dhalsim, Chun, O.Thawk, O.Ken, Guile, Dee Jay? (He was actually good here)

10/32? If I'm good at math, that's about a third of the cast. Not too bad. I'm counting the optimal versions of each viable character, but you could probably use the "lucina" version and do well too I guess.

Smash 4 has better balance than that I'm sure (if top 27 is viable, which I'm sure they are, that's approx. 40% of the roster).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Platforms are annoying using her, yeah. The big issue comes in when you use Up+B (as mentioned) or try and divekick from anything but a shorthop, which REALLY linearizes how you have to use divekick here. In addition, running away from platform pressure with Divekick isn't.....ideal.

I'm a really big fan of Duck Hunt with her.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Brawl must be the hypest **** then.
But seriously, do you want to see a top 8 full of Bayos?
I mean it will most likely be more entertaining than pre nerf Diddy thanks to WT but it's still going to ruin the game for many many people.

As long as the Bayonetta dittos all start with a dance-off, I'm happy.

It's unfortunate that fair is easy to DI because I just spent the last few hours trying out some of her combos on a plane, and I made liberal use of fair.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Balrog, O.Sagat, Claw, Ryu, Dhalsim, Chun, O.Thawk, O.Ken, Guile, Dee Jay? (He was actually good here)

10/32? If I'm good at math, that's about a third of the cast. Not too bad. I'm counting the optimal versions of each viable character, but you could probably use the "lucina" version and do well too I guess.

Smash 4 has better balance than that I'm sure (if top 27 is viable, which I'm sure they are, that's approx. 40% of the roster).

In addition to those chars, Fei has been really popular in Japan and has shot up from Bottom tier to High tier. Chicken Wing is really borked in ST and usually gives him 50% of your health bar should he hit you =3.

 

[Radical Larry]

If we are going by pure damage output, the Bowser nair is also more.

If we go by reach, Link trumps Zelda.
If we go by reliability, Link and Yoshi trump Zelda.
If we go by many other measures, all Zelda has is speed and knockback power, nothing more. Just about everything else that Zelda's most powerful aerial has, Link, Yoshi and Bowser do better.

Baby_Sneak Actually, 27 out of 58 is almost 50%.
TTTTTsd So what you're saying is that any kind of bottom tier, with the right player, can just skyrocket?

 

[Nah]

Nah Speaking of jumpsquats, Corrin got a frame 6 one (joining heavier characters like Yoshi/DK/Wario. I do wonder how different the jump for dragon lunge is though (I think I heard it was 3 or 4 frames), and if that jump bypasses the shield drop frames like a regular jump at all.

Pretty sure that since it's a side special and not a real jump it won't bypass shield drop frames.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If we go by reach, Link trumps Zelda.
If we go by reliability, Link and Yoshi trump Zelda.
If we go by many other measures, all Zelda has is speed and knockback power, nothing more. Just about everything else that Zelda's most powerful aerial has, Link, Yoshi and Bowser do better.

Baby_Sneak Actually, 27 out of 58 is almost 50%.
TTTTTsd So what you're saying is that any kind of bottom tier, with the right player, can just skyrocket?

Well when it comes to ST, Fei Long was really underdeveloped in the metagame for the longest time so people always assumed he was bad.

It doesn't apply everywhere but in this case, it ended up happening because players got consistent with a wildly inconsistent character and his damage turned out to be quite the selling point.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can someone go through Bayo's disadvantaged state?

What happens after getting out with witch twist? Is it easy to outmaneuver opponents and avoid juggle situations? From what I know, she can only use those specials a limited number of times without hitting the opponent or using a double jump.

How are her landing options once a special has been used and she has to land with lag (or the climax landing lag cancel)?

Would it answer your question if I stated that Bayo divekick is in fact the best move in the game? Huge damage potential, frame 8, hard to anti air on reaction, can cover like half of FD in either direction instantly.

When I get cornered by the ledge, faking jumping to center stage and dive kicking back to the ledge about twice seems to be adequate for forcing anyone to give you space to reset when ludicrously hard reads are required to follow this.

Much like Yoshi's negative state but better, divekick alone makes it really scary to commit to chasing her too when a small mistake can quickly turn into Bayonetta advantage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In addition to those chars, Fei has been really popular in Japan and has shot up from Bottom tier to High tier. Chicken Wing is really borked in ST and usually gives him 50% of your health bar should he hit you =3.

I was going to list him,but I've heard he struggles against fireball characters.

But then again I put up O.T.Hawk up there, so sure =

EDIT: just realized smash 4 has a bigger roster than any other fighting game that has released and still has amazing balance. Poetry in motion