Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[wedl!!]

Well, it's on shield moreso than anything. Should have specified that.

Side-B is punishable at low % though.

 

[meleebrawler]

I just did this at avg Limit Side-B Kill % and couldn't escape it (87%)

You sure it's not just at low % where using Limit Side-B is a bad idea anyways?

I'll keep trying but I'm doubtful this works at actual kill %s. Not shocked that you can do it out of regular Side-B though.

But then the Cloud could vary the timing, or just not follow through then grab her or something.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Oh my god, Kirby talk.

I'll admit, I'm guilty of saying Kirby/ZSS is even. The MU can go either way, it really comes down to who uses their options the best in certain situations (Kirby ducks/turtles and limits ZSS;s options, ZSS punishing options) and its a do-able MU, but where it stands is not very clear to me.

Sheik, honestly, is pretty terrible. I know that she can be combo'd and we can duck needles, but it doesn't do much. She still has insane mobility, safety, and frame data, and ducking needles only works if we're in the lead. Getting her needles is hard, and it doesn't even do very much because Sheik has no problem shorthopping over them or ducking. She also edge-guards us hard because of our bad mobility and turd up-b.

IMO:
Winning:
Relatively close: (leaning on her side)
Losing:
please help:

Obviously MU experience comes in handy, but thats for all mid-low-ish characters. In my MU chart we have exactly half of the roster on one side to the other, and he does lose to a lot of characters, but he has winnable MUs and saving graces.

 

[Mario766]

But then the Cloud could vary the timing, or just not follow through then grab her or something.

Talking about limit side-b here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fun fact: Bayonetta can escape Cross Slash with Bat Within shenanigans. Even the last hit of the Limit version! Try it yourself. It's extremely dumb.

I've had Bayonetta generally fall out of Limit SideB at around max range for odd reasons without even mashing airdodge. It might be a spacing dependent thing from what I'm seeing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've had Bayonetta generally fall out of Limit SideB at around max range for odd reasons without even mashing airdodge. It might be a spacing dependent thing from what I'm seeing.

It happens to some characters but generally if the move connects at most spacing instances where you're going to hit it (i.e. up close, moderate range) it connects fully with no issues. Since it has F6 intangibility I'm generally upclose when I use it anyways and if she manages to Bat Within and I'm next to the ground I get a free move after anyways because Limit Side-B has literally no cooldown

I think the Bayo V Cloud matchup would be horrendous if Cloud's neutral wasn't the way it is. He forces most of the cast to play on his terms and I don't think this one's an exception to that at all. If I'm being baited and shot at with projectiles I'm just building Limit that I'm charging anyways so it's a win-win here. I don't think it's significantly in either party's favor because their kits interact very....interestingly. He obviously gets destroyed offstage if he's forced to recover anywhere but high but that's every Cloud matchup that isn't like, Fox or other chars with poor edgeguarding here.

Bayo is also one of the few characters Cloud can combo out of D-Throw vs. at 50-70% with a running Nair (in particular within Limit mode the timing becomes easier).

 

[Mario766]

A good chunk of the cast can fall out of Limit Side-B at max range, if not most of the cast. If you DI away you shouldn't get hit by the entire move, same thing goes for if you're too high up or below Cloud when he does it, you'll get hit by an attack but won't be caught in the entire thing.

The move is best used up close/medium range unless you're doing shield pressure.

 

[Megamang]

I really really dont see how her utilt trumps all his aerials. Utilt can beat dair. Otherwise it seems like a disjoint and strong safe aerials with great mobility are factors for a decent bayo matchup.

 

[DE235]

Right now Ninja Link is going against anti in GF after beating Dill. It is a good watch.
http://www.twitch.tv/houseof3000

Edit: Over now last hit situation. Anti won using Mario.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Thoughts on Ganondorf?

 

[Mario766]

Slow, few/no combos, gimpable recovery, unsafe attacks, hard to approach with, slow attack speed, no projectiles, can't zone hard.


That's all what Ganon has

That's all you don't want in a Smash 4 chracter.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ganon and Little Mac are extreme opposites.

Ganon is the worst character in the game in terms of simply landing hits. But, if the opponent makes a mistake, they lose.

Little Mac is the best character in the game in terms of simply landing hits. But, if you make a mistake, you lose.


BOLD statement: If Little Mac had Flip Kick as his down-b, he would legitimately be the best character in the game.

 

[FullMoon]

Anti just barely beat NinjaLink's Bayo

His thoughts on the matter lol

 

[C0rvus]

Thoughts on Ganondorf?

Well, your avatar is fire. Ganon is buns, though.

 

[Mario766]

What would Flip Kick change, honestly.

He still has less than average landing options, and his recovery wouldn't get much better.

 

[C0rvus]

It would make his awful recovery into a decent one, mitigating that massive weakness.

It would give him a precious landing mixup, mitigating that massive weakness.

What's left is a character that is monstrous on the ground, with a kill button comeback mechanic.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I noticed Anti was slamming airdodge during those Bayo Double Side-B combos and getting out a lot.

Wonder what that was about?

 

[Mario766]

Flip Kick is much better in ZSS hands. She also has much better air speed + air acceleration so she can do more with flip kick. Mac having it still has to deal with his absurdly bad air acceleration and air speed, plus it isn't a full out get out of jail free card, unlike Bayonetta's EVERYTHING.

 

[Jaguar360]

Adding onto Fullmoon's post, NinjaLink reset the bracket and took Anti to the last game with Bayonetta. Anti used a host of characters for the first set (Cloud, ZSS, someone else I think), then used Mario for the rest and won 3-2.

Venia got 4th btw losing to Dill (Sheik) and NinjaLink and John#s got 5th losing to Anti and NinjaLink. Bracket: http://nebulous.challonge.com/nebulous_prime_sm4sh_26_singles

 

[Thinkaman]

What would Flip Kick change, honestly.

He still has less than average landing options, and his recovery wouldn't get much better.

Are we... talking about the same move?

The ZSS one that makes the entire concept of disadvantage obsolete?

 

[Mario766]

Are we... talking about the same move?

The ZSS one that makes the entire concept of disadvantage obsolete?

Mac uses flip kick

He's now above you in the air.

...Still in a bad position.

It sounds fun on paper, but in practice it's probably less effective.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Another interesting note: Anti said he'd actually logistically go Cloud against Bayonetta and he was apparently just gathering data. It explains why he was overextending despite playing neutral really smart.

Guess he thinks the MU isn't bad either then. I'll be taking some notes on it for sure, tho I might just play Bayo for Bayo mirrors cause those are fun.

 

[Radical Larry]

Slow, few/no combos, gimpable recovery, unsafe attacks, hard to approach with, slow attack speed, no projectiles, can't zone hard.


That's all what Ganon has

That's all you don't want in a Smash 4 chracter.

You're doing this and ignoring Ganondorf's pros; amazing shield pressure with 75% of his attacks, AC B-Air and U-Air (something that is good for him), extremely powerful attacks (he kills early if you make a mistake), is literally a damage tank, his D-Spec aerial comes out somewhat fast and KOs really, really early and the combos he does have--whether or not on specific characters--deal a high amount of damage.

Ganondorf is a character that is the easy-to-learn and pick up type that can, if played right, deal quite a lot. All you just got to do is learn to do a lot of perfect shielding and know a lot about him and you'll be fine. Seriously, there's more to Ganondorf than meets the eye; one U-Smash can lead into any of his other attacks and yet many power shields force the opponent to come up to Ganondorf.

He's complicated, but not a bad character. He was designed to be the most powerful character with attacks, but one of the slowest characters in the game with a bad recovery to compensate.

I noticed Anti was slamming airdodge during those Bayo Double Side-B combos and getting out a lot.

Wonder what that was about?

Because you can air dodge the second Side B, dude. I've done it a lot against Bayonetta players and it's actually doable with a lot of characters after bits of testing.

Mac uses flip kick

He's now above you in the air.

...Still in a bad position.

It sounds fun on paper, but in practice it's probably less effective.

Only if Mac goes against any character with a disjoint or is Bayonetta or Ganondorf. Otherwise, if Mac had Flip Kick, he'd pretty much be gone before the opponent could get near him because, oh wait, he's the third fastest character on ground and has a 1.0 aerial movement.

You're not going to be in a bad position due to his much...
Smaller...
Hitbox...

 

[Rizen]

This brings up how fantastic specials like Flip kick and Bouncing fish are. Almost every character would benefit from these (maybe not Diddy?). Add them to the best ground game character Mac and he becomes horrifying. Heck swap pretty much any character's specials (except maybe Cloud and Ryu) with sheik's and they'd get a massive boost.

 

[Thinkaman]

No, this is how it goes:

You hit Mac off stage. Mac does Flip Kick, a move that instantly sends him half the length of Battlefield horizontally with 10 invincibility frames. He snaps to the ledge.

-or-

You start to juggle Mac. Mac does Flip Kick off to the side, instantly juking away.


You make it sound like Little Mac would be Flip Kicking in neutral. Why would he ever do that? He's Little Mac. His neutral is better than Sheik's, as long as he isn't losing + being platform camped on Smashville.

It's the moment that godlike neutral ends that his entire plan falls apart.

 

[Ffamran]

BOLD statement: If Little Mac had Flip Kick as his down-b, he would legitimately be the best character in the game.

*reads through posts* Did... did you bait everyone into thinking Little Mac would use Flip Kick as an approach, get off me, etc. option? People do realize Flip Kick as a defensive and even purely recovery-based move is amazing, right? Let's say Little Mac loses Slip Counter for Flip Kick. Little Mac now has 3 recovery options, 1 vertical, 1 horizontal, and 1 both. Flip Kick alone could shoot Little Mac from bad recovery to mediocre since it jumps about or higher than Little Mac's full jump height and that pretty much effectively ends Little Mac's recovery problem by allowing him to boost himself further forward and have a good jump. As an escape, it might not be "good" for Little Mac to just get out and try to land on-stage, but to move away and get to the ledge? That's good. His aerials aren't the best or good - end of story. Now, his disadvantage moving to bad to somewhere around okay... Little Mac ends up with this: good neutral - he's a freaking boxer for Pete's sake and boxers thrive in neutral where they can poke, prod, move around, and juke people -, good advantage, and decent from bad disadvantage. Theoretically, Little Mac could potentially be high tier with Flip Kick moving his disadvantage and recovery from bad to decent.

Even Cloud's lack of ledge sweet-spotting with Climhazzard in what many characters consider normal conditions would be something Little Mac wants since he'd love that vertical travel. Little Mac would also love a hitboxless recovery move like the Pits' Power of Flight if it did not touch his Rising Uppercut which is useful for kills, OOS, damage racking, and sometimes escapes. Now, Little Mac with Quick Attack for a Down Special... More like Little (Too) Quick.

This brings up how fantastic specials like Flip kick and Bouncing fish are. Almost every character would benefit from these (maybe not Diddy?). Add them to the best ground game character Mac and he becomes horrifying. Heck swap pretty much any character's specials (except maybe Cloud and Ryu) with sheik's and they'd get a massive boost.

Falco with a Bouncing Fish or basically, a flying version of Fox's Side Smash a.k.a. Kyo's R.E.D. Kick would basically have a "ghetto" PM Wolf Reflector to Wolf Flash kill confirm with his Dtilt and D-throw to Bouncing Fish, flying Fox Side Smash, R.E.D. Kick. The easiest way to do this without much of a problem is to just give him Wolf Flash.

No, seriously, I mean it. They might have to tweak some things, like much lower knockback, but Falco with Wolf Flash basically solves all the problems Falco Phantasm causes to Smash in general with its massive, although, weak spike hitbox and to him because having no hitbox on the last half and in front of you while your wing is heightening your hurbox is a fun thing. The other option is to emulate Wolf Flash and make it so Falco only spikes at the end of Falco Phantasm while the rest of it does 2%. That keeps the idea Falco Phantasm spikes while also reducing the spike hitbox to something less stupid along with making it so Falco doesn't get wrecked if he hits you with the last half of it. He can still be hit in front like always and like Fox, but at least the last half has a hitbox meaning he can at least cause a clank like Fox can as a safety net.

 

[Blobface]

Quick question: How well-known is it that you can pivot JC U-smashes to do a retreating JC U-smash?

 

[Ffamran]

Quick question: How well-known is it that you can pivot JC U-smashes to do a retreating JC U-smash?

Do you mean like this?

If so, then I don't see people using it much for whatever reason that I don't know... safety?

Edit: Isn't this what Mario players do to get a reverse Up Smash?

 

[C0rvus]

I imagine Mario could use it in reverse. Not sure how Mario mains do that. I use attack set to c-stick so that might be why I can't do it.

 

[Ffamran]

Now that reminds me... If I remember correctly, someone - was it DunnoBro? - said there were two control schemes for Mario players: one that uses C-stick to tilts to make aerial combos easier and one that uses Smash letting Mario get reverse Up Smashes. You can't have both apparently. Maybe it was for Diddy... I don't remember completely, but it probably has a factor in this.

Edit: Yeah, thinking this is what Mario does considering Jtails's tutorial on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mkvkYtwmk.

 

[Das Koopa]

You're doing this and ignoring Ganondorf's pros; amazing shield pressure with 75% of his attacks, AC B-Air and U-Air (something that is good for him), extremely powerful attacks (he kills early if you make a mistake), is literally a damage tank, his D-Spec aerial comes out somewhat fast and KOs really, really early and the combos he does have--whether or not on specific characters--deal a high amount of damage.

Ganondorf is a character that is the easy-to-learn and pick up type that can, if played right, deal quite a lot. All you just got to do is learn to do a lot of perfect shielding and know a lot about him and you'll be fine. Seriously, there's more to Ganondorf than meets the eye; one U-Smash can lead into any of his other attacks and yet many power shields force the opponent to come up to Ganondorf.

He's complicated, but not a bad character. He was designed to be the most powerful character with attacks, but one of the slowest characters in the game with a bad recovery to compensate.
.

If you need to do a constant cycle of 3 frame shields to have any hope at defense, your character is pretty awful. His strength is a boon, but it doesn't matter when he gets juggled and gimped and relies entirely on reads and punishes to do anything. Sure, that Up smash might be good for some big damage, but how do you think you're getting it? By hard reading or punishing, something the viable cast doesn't have to worry about doing to get anywhere.

Add poor edgeguarding and a bad neutral game to the mix that seems to live and die by his bad jab and his Nair and you've got an unworkable character at higher echelons of the game. The fact he's one of the few characters who actually can be reliably gimped only makes it worse.

FYI; One of the reasons Ganondorf is easy to beat is because, due to his frame data and comically bad mobility, you have a wide open window to not make serious mistake compared to characters with low-frame moves/combo starters that can carry you along a stage.

I'd like to point out that "Powershield everything" isn't a viable strategy because it basically applies to every member of the cast and if every player could play at TAS level Ganondorf would be at the same place he started because we'd be falling back on his fundamentals and why he doesn't work as a character.

 

[Anomilus]

Thoughts on Ganondorf?

Not my thoughts, but this person's thoughts on Ganondorf and the tier list:

http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/

Was this already discussed? It is something to think about, I would say.

 

[Jaguar360]

Quick question: How well-known is it that you can pivot JC U-smashes to do a retreating JC U-smash?

I see Ally do this sometimes and I've done it with Greninja, Yoshi and Bowser on occasion, though I can't do it consistently. Is it a 1 frame action or something where you tap the opposite direction just before doing the JC U-smash?

 

[Lavani]

It's just a JC usmash during a pivot.

 

[Krysco]

Can't you do something like that at any point during a run? You can turn around during a run, cancel that turn around with a jump (how rar is done) and cancel the jump with an usmash? PP JC usmash would be the a frame perfect one from a standing point but is the PP necessary?

 

[Browny]

Not my thoughts, but this person's thoughts on Ganondorf and the tier list:

http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/

Was this already discussed? It is something to think about, I would say.

His article on Bowser Jr is great too. It's just the same nonsense every single time, year after year with 'backroom' tier lists that just completely ignore certain characters because they think are low tier (think, as in they don't know anything at all) and attribute it entirely to player skill.

It's pure, unfiltered confirmation bias. People believe Bowser Jr and Ganondorf are horrible because of bias, therefore when those characters perform poorly its because they are bad. When they perform well its because the player is good. People believe that characters like pikachu and ryu are amazing and top tier. When the character performs poorly its because they werent used 'optimally' (as in, lack of player skill) and when they perform well its clearly because the character is top 4.

It's sadly ironic, because if early on people believed that Ganondorf was actually a mid tier character it is extremely likely that they would look on his results more favourably and not go 'lol bad region, results dont matter' but because of how he was in brawl, it may take many years for people to look past this.

It seriously took years of constant high results for Sonic, ZSS and Olimar in brawl before they were rated where they should be despite bringing the results in from early on and I guess Bowser Jr and Ganondorf are going to suffer the same fate in this game.

To be honest WFT has it pretty bad as well, just as bad as those two I'd say. Mewtwo and G&W probably next.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Thing is, WFT has actual representation and actual showing at nationals.

And I imagine people would rate him more highly than he was in Brawl if his kit wasn't 99% identical to Brawl in every way that matters (except for the nerfs, of course. Lol thunderstorm where u at).

 

[Luco]

https://twitter.com/BlankSmash/status/696152585535934464
https://twitter.com/BlankSmash/status/696155464862670850

Corrin is a one-man Wobbling crew off of any getup attack or platform edge. Enjoy.

In other words, if a Corrin has ANY kind of stock/percent lead against a Sheik or ZSS and then grabs them at the edge, both players can shake hands and walk away from the game?

Because that's kinda bonkers.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

In other words, if a Corrin has ANY kind of stock/percent lead against a Sheik or ZSS and then grabs them at the edge, both players can shake hands and walk away from the game?

Because that's kinda bonkers.

I doubt something like this will be legal in tournaments. Unlike the Dlddy Kong grab glitch, this is preventable since the corrin player can just use one of their throws.

 

[Das Koopa]

Not my thoughts, but this person's thoughts on Ganondorf and the tier list:

http://smash4u.net/4br-tier-list-ganondorf-still-king-of-bottom-tier/

Was this already discussed? It is something to think about, I would say.

Even during the customs meta for the first half of last year, GanonTheBeast still preferred to keep his default moveset instead of opting for Ganondorf’s devastating Dark Fists and Wizard’s Dropkick.

First video I find has GanontheBeast using dropkick;