Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Hippieslayer]

So Ike now? Fair and nair kill like 15% earlier. Fair now has enough range to beat most anything. Nair has a better knockback angle for comboing. The character was already decent.

 

[Das Koopa]

Yoshi and Ganondorf aren't comparable because Ganondorf doesn't have tools relative to the high tier in SSB4 that Yoshi does in Melee. Furthermore, you aren't arguing based on Ganondorf's current seekret tech, you're arguing on theoretical tech. The argument becomes "Ganondorf should be higher tiered than he is now because maybe he has secret tech because one time this one totally different character in this totally different game ended up having tools that weren't properly investigated."

Another point of inaccuracy in your post, however minor: Yoshi is 6th to last on that last, not 5th. It's missing Pichu.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The Japanese Dorfs have dissected the character pretty thoroughly and @A2ZOMG has been sure to make most of their work common knowledge on the Ganon boards. I'm fairly confident there's no magic secret tech that's going to enable a Yoshi-esque tier list rise.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yoshi and Ganondorf aren't comparable because Ganondorf doesn't have tools relative to the high tier in SSB4 that Yoshi does in Melee. Furthermore, you aren't arguing based on Ganondorf's current seekret tech, you're arguing on theoretical tech. The argument becomes "Ganondorf should be higher tiered than he is now because maybe he has secret tech because one time this one totally different character in this totally different game ended up having tools that weren't properly investigated."

Another point of inaccuracy in your post, however minor: Yoshi is 6th to last on that last, not 5th. It's missing Pichu.

I completely didn't notice Pichu got cut off from the list, sorry. Don't know how it did that, but I guess the person who took the screenshot just outright left out Pichu. I had one job!

 

[Das Koopa]

Still worth pointing out that the prior (albeit heavily criticized list, for unrelated reasons) list did have Yoshi at 5th to last

But Yoshi's rise in Melee probably had to do with the revival of Melee and the expanding optimal gameplay that saw Jigglypuff rise to power. Yoshi got looked at later and proceeded to rise up because Melee's tech advantaged him. Smash 4 doesn't have the tech ceiling Melee does. It doesn't have the free-form movement options, leaving less avenues open for sudden rises among low tiers.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Roy buffs are huge. They make his neutral better since spaced Nair and Fair are decently safe on shield now and these moves can now wall out the opponent decently well. His advantageous state has become noticeably better as well, as his aerial's lessened landing lag allow him to juggle, combo, and frame trap the opponent in to F-Smash / grab / other moves more effectively than before. The DED buff also help his advantageous state since the faster startup make the move easier to combo into from moves like F-Throw and D-Tilt.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

TTTTTsd @KuroganeHammer so I tested the whole AD thing after uSpecial 2 with a turbo controller with and without DI away and the uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK combo at 60%, and the ABK after the second uSpecial still true combos.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Still worth pointing out that the prior (albeit heavily criticized list, for unrelated reasons) list did have Yoshi at 5th to last

But Yoshi's rise in Melee probably had to do with the revival of Melee and the expanding optimal gameplay that saw Jigglypuff rise to power. Yoshi got looked at later and proceeded to rise up because Melee's tech advantaged him. Smash 4 doesn't have the tech ceiling Melee does. It doesn't have the free-form movement options, leaving less avenues open for sudden rises among low tiers.

The game itself doesn't determine if the characters are able to rise up. That's on the characters themselves. Brawl didn't help or blow up, they did it by their character-specific attributes.

Same with . Parry, strong combo game, soft shield, egg camp, etc... All of that is specific to yoshi only, none of
That came from the game (soft shield, but yoshi's is special with the distance it gains).

 

[Lavani]

Lavani

2am johns ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Apparently Bullet Arts add end lag lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

TTTTTsd @KuroganeHammer so I tested the whole AD thing after uSpecial 2 with a turbo controller with and without DI away and the uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK combo at 60%, and the ABK after the second uSpecial still true combos.

What about Fair tho? Cause that's the one that sets up for kills below like, 60%.

i.e. the one everyone's raving about.

 

[C0rvus]

The game itself doesn't determine if the characters are able to rise up. That's on the characters themselves. Brawl didn't help or blow up, they did it by their character-specific attributes.

Same with . Parry, strong combo game, soft shield, egg camp, etc... All of that is specific to yoshi only, none of
That came from the game (soft shield, but yoshi's is special with the distance it gains).

Just want to say, if any character like Brawl ZSS or Olimar is in this game, it might be characters like (strong mixup-based neutral) or (Umeki can do the infinite, weird footsies, good reward) or (all-around character, again has good reward if optimized) but in Smash 4 it just seems like the patches choose who comes out of the woodwork.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What about Fair tho? Cause that's the one that sets up for kills below like, 60%.

i.e. the one everyone's raving about.

Nope, can't airdodge out of that either. DI in addition does nothing as well.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nope, can't airdodge out of that either. DI in addition does nothing as well.

I'll have to test and see if you can DI out of the Fair1 itself though (last I checked you could DI away after being hit by Fair1 to prevent additional stuff but I could be wrong) although I imagine Uspecial > ABK > USpecial > Fair wouldn't blastzone kill anyways it'd just do a lot of damage....

I also want to check what DI up and DI down will do so I'll probably try that tonight with the tried and true feet method. (Sure wish we had a good training mode!)

 

[Radical Larry]

Just want to say, if any character like Brawl ZSS or Olimar is in this game, it might be characters like (strong mixup-based neutral) or (Umeki can do the infinite, weird footsies, good reward) or (all-around character, again has good reward if optimized) but in Smash 4 it just seems like the patches choose who comes out of the woodwork.

It seems to be a determining factor, but the patches aren't the only things; it's the players that take the time to take on those characters and others. Characters who are Precision-based are the hardest to do overall and the hardest to pick up. The opposite can be said about characters like ZSS, Sheik and Rosalina, who're just easy to pick up. Then we got Fox, Ryu and Diddy Kong.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So Ike now? Fair and nair kill like 15% earlier. Fair now has enough range to beat most anything. Nair has a better knockback angle for comboing. The character was already decent.

Probably to close the distance between him and Cloud, a character that was just dropped into the game and was instantly declared the second best swordsman. It's been a wild ride for all the swordusers in the game. Aside from Toon Link, all them were declared hilariously terrible when the game first game out, then received massive buff dumps and have now gotten their FOURTH since the 3DS version came out.

 

[Weaknd]

in the A tier
MK (Tyrant & abadango) & Diddy are having the best result in tournament unlike maari / fox /pika / sonic imo

 

[LancerStaff]

Aside from Toon Link, all them were declared hilariously terrible when the game first game out...

And, yaknow, Pit who's been considered to be at least good since release and has only had smaller buffs overall... Dark Pit too, although he got something fairly significant.

 

[Blobface]

If you need to do a constant cycle of 3 frame shields to have any hope at defense, your character is pretty awful. His strength is a boon, but it doesn't matter when he gets juggled and gimped and relies entirely on reads and punishes to do anything. Sure, that Up smash might be good for some big damage, but how do you think you're getting it? By hard reading or punishing, something the viable cast doesn't have to worry about doing to get anywhere.

Add poor edgeguarding and a bad neutral game to the mix that seems to live and die by his bad jab and his Nair and you've got an unworkable character at higher echelons of the game. The fact he's one of the few characters who actually can be reliably gimped only makes it worse.

FYI; One of the reasons Ganondorf is easy to beat is because, due to his frame data and comically bad mobility, you have a wide open window to not make serious mistake compared to characters with low-frame moves/combo starters that can carry you along a stage.

I'd like to point out that "Powershield everything" isn't a viable strategy because it basically applies to every member of the cast and if every player could play at TAS level Ganondorf would be at the same place he started because we'd be falling back on his fundamentals and why he doesn't work as a character.

Uh

Hwat.

Ganon's U-air by itself is a better edgeguarding tool than most characters entire movesets.

Look, Larry's posts are... radical, but don't rebound backwards into equally ridiculous territory to disprove them.

Ganondorf is a fully functional character with a few key undertuned moves like Wizkick, Flame Choke (crazy good in some matchups, wizkick-level in others), and a few of his normals. It's not like he needs an overhaul or something.

Ganon does not have trouble with gimps. You can't ignore his bad recovery, it's definitely there, but it's not one of his issues as a character (Quite frankly he needs a bad recovery in Smash 4 to prevent his edgeguarding from being ridiculous). Same goes with projectiles and whatnot. This isn't Brawl.

Honestly, if this were the first game Ganon was in, we'd probably have the opposite problem, with people believing Ganon is a mid-high tier due to his reward.

If you want my opinion, I think Ganon is overall good enough that a dedicated main (not necessarily top player skill but still really good) could make top 32 at a national tourney, and top 16 with some luck in-game. Basically, good enough to do work, not good enough to be relevant to the metagame as a whole.

 

[Megamang]

Radical Larry , you keep saying shiek is easy to pick up. You should stop saying that, it really confirms the idea people have that you have no grasp on high level play. She is difficult to utilize at a high level. This is coming from someone who thinks she is an imbalanced pile of ****.




Basically, ganon wont go up because of something we dont know, because tier lists are indicative of the current meta, with a sprinkling of current understanding of potential. If you think, on this kind of list, ganon should still go up... who is ganon better than? Because thats the argument you need to push forward, not a general feeling of ganon love.


Anyways, we need to get our **** straight about bayonetta. Ive heard that fair is useless in combos because its easily escapable, now it isnt DIable... the feet method is ok, but wont sdi. Can we check her data to see if her moves have SDI multipliers; thats a great place to start.

 

[Gawain]

Uh

Hwat.

Ganon's U-air by itself is a better edgeguarding tool than most characters entire movesets.

Look, Larry's posts are... radical, but don't rebound backwards into equally ridiculous territory to disprove them.

Ganondorf is a fully functional character with a few key undertuned moves like Wizkick, Flame Choke (crazy good in some matchups, wizkick-level in others), and a few of his normals. It's not like he needs an overhaul or something.

Ganon does not have trouble with gimps. You can't ignore his bad recovery, it's definitely there, but it's not one of his issues as a character (Quite frankly he needs a bad recovery in Smash 4 to prevent his edgeguarding from being ridiculous). Same goes with projectiles and whatnot. This isn't Brawl.

Honestly, if this were the first game Ganon was in, we'd probably have the opposite problem, with people believing Ganon is a mid-high tier due to his reward.

If you want my opinion, I think Ganon is overall good enough that a dedicated main (not necessarily top player skill but still really good) could make top 32 at a national tourney, and top 16 with some luck in-game. Basically, good enough to do work, not good enough to be relevant to the metagame as a whole.

If you can make top 32 at a national tournament then your character is definitely relevant to competitors lol. I just don't see that happening with Ganon without ridiculous luck in pools, good players are just too consistent for him to do much.

 

[Ffamran]

@JohnKnight416 and Shadow_13, please continue discussion on characters, their MUs, and whatnot here or in their respective boards, like for example, Shadow_13, this post would work here or in the Link boards.

I will admit that I said "Top 7", but I will actually disagree with myself right now. Link does not struggle against a lot of people. Even if it was 7 out of 60, that sounds pretty balanced to me. His melee attacks may not be guaranteed follow-ups unless at low percents (Like SH Fair fast fall to Dtilt to SH Fair) but, his punish, read, and mixup game is god-like. It's amazing that Link really has one of the best keep away games without using a projectile. Ledge-Gaurding? Not a problem.

In my opinion, Link struggles against: Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu, Greninja, and Falco. A little bit against Villager and Ness.
There is 7, but not the top 7. Even ZSS and Sheik are not awful matchups in tournament play. Hard, but not awful.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Attention!
Smash bros online servers are down for maintenance. Surprise patch?

 

[adom4]

Attention!
Smash bros online servers are down for maintenance. Surprise patch?

ifthey are patching it's probably just bug fixing anyway.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

ifthey are patching it's probably just bug fixing anyway.

Most likely Corrin fixes if anything.

 

[Game7a1]

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp
According to this, it's a general maintenance. Also, wouldn't there be a bugfix announcement if a patch for Bayonetta and Corrin glitches was coming?

 

[Y2Kay]

Will I have to worry about my replays being lost? I wanted to study my smashladder matches more

 

[Silvia]

Will I have to worry about my replays being lost? I wanted to study my smashladder matches more

When you do the Smash update the previous replays aren't usable anymore. Its better to upload them to YouTube or a capture card so you always have them.

 

[firedude953]

I got some questions, as a Bowser main.
1. How viable is Bowser?
2. What are Bowser's character matchups?
3. How can I improve in tournaments with Bowser?
4. What stages are good for Bowser?
5. How do you think Bowser will change in the metagame?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Honestly, if this were the first game Ganon was in, we'd probably have the opposite problem, with people believing Ganon is a mid-high tier due to his reward.

I mean, this kinda DID happen. Maybe not high-tier, but back when the game came out a lot of people, myself included, were pretty impressed with how Ganon was, with many of those opinions stemming from either "holy crap those customs are great!" and "hey look he's not Brawl Ganon anymore!"

It was true then and it's still generally true now: Many of Ganon's matchups come with a huge asterisk that says "do not make a mistake against this character"

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Probably to close the distance between him and Cloud, a character that was just dropped into the game and was instantly declared the second best swordsman. It's been a wild ride for all the swordusers in the game. Aside from Toon Link, all them were declared hilariously terrible when the game first game out, then received massive buff dumps and have now gotten their FOURTH since the 3DS version came out.

nah, Shulk didn't get relevant buffs at all, compared to Ike and robin. If anything, people gave up on him

 

[Solfiner]

nah, Shulk didn't get relevant buffs at all, compared to Ike and robin. If anything, people gave up on him

2 extra percent on all of his attacks, more damage in Monado speed and 2 frames less landing lag on all aerials are irrelevant buffs? Yeah okay.

 

[C0rvus]

I got some questions, as a Bowser main.
1. How viable is Bowser?
2. What are Bowser's character matchups?
3. How can I improve in tournaments with Bowser?
4. What stages are good for Bowser?
5. How do you think Bowser will change in the metagame?

You should take these questions to the Bowser boards. As it stands, Bowser is alright. His grab confirm helps him out a lot. I cannot speak on his matchups, but he certainly loses to most of the top tiers. In my experience, I like Town and City for it's low ceiling, same with Dreamland. Both also offer places to land and set up Flying Slam kills.

 

[adom4]

2 extra percent on all of his attacks, more damage in Monado speed and 2 frames less landing lag on all aerials are irrelevant buffs? Yeah okay.

3DS Shulk barely worked, he needed those buffs (and fixes to his F-smash/U-smash) because he was a trainwreck of a character.

 

[Solfiner]

3DS Shulk barely worked, he needed those buffs (and fixes to his F-smash/U-smash) because he was a trainwreck of a character.

I know, which is why his buffs were extremely relevant.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Not to mention they reduced Buster's defense penalty to the point where it's barely a weakness and made Back Slash kinda sorta an actual move.

 

[Fatmanonice]

2 extra percent on all of his attacks, more damage in Monado speed and 2 frames less landing lag on all aerials are irrelevant buffs? Yeah okay.

This. I don't think people really appreciate just how much better those characters I listed are now compared to how they were when they first came out. Trust me, if you were a Day One Ike, Marth, or Metaknight main, you probably strongly considered crying in frustration at some point within those first three months of the metagame because of how dysfunctional they were. Don't even get me started on the special snowflake disasters Robin and Shulk were. Robin actually works as a character now and Shulk is actually somewhat competent instead of being little more than Gimmick the Monado-Boy.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Probably to close the distance between him and Cloud, a character that was just dropped into the game and was instantly declared the second best swordsman. It's been a wild ride for all the swordusers in the game. Aside from Toon Link, all them were declared hilariously terrible when the game first game out, then received massive buff dumps and have now gotten their FOURTH since the 3DS version came out.

Meta Knight's biggest buff was the removal of vectoring actually. Everything good about him have been there since day 1 of the Wii U release, the buffs he got were QoL changes that do help but hardly the reason why he is the way he is now, and it was ultimately vectoring that screwed him over.

Same for Luigi and Mario, actually.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

2 extra percent on all of his attacks, more damage in Monado speed and 2 frames less landing lag on all aerials are irrelevant buffs? Yeah okay.

I mean in terms of him being viable. Ike was buffed to the point of him being considered a decently viable character. Shulk still isn't viable

 

[Blobface]

I mean in terms of him being viable. Ike was buffed to the point of him being considered a decently viable character. Shulk still isn't viable

I'd say Ike started off far better than Shulk to begin with.

 

[UberMadman]

Meta Knight's biggest buff was the removal of vectoring actually. Everything good about him have been there since day 1 of the Wii U release, the buffs he got were QoL changes that do help but hardly the reason why he is the way he is now, and it was ultimately vectoring that screwed him over

You're technically correct; however, it was the 1.0.4 patch of the 3DS version that really helped make him viable, as without it he probably would not have had his ladder combo. (They buffed Up-Air's hitbox that patch.) So whether Meta Knight was always a great character at launch depends if you're starting from Wii U release or 3DS release, as Vectoring's removal wasn't the only major thing that was hampering Meta Knight in the 3DS days.