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He made it all the way up to Ratio level 3 (along with chars like guile) in the newest JP tier list. hold on
+ had won doubles at SHIG Tournament. How is no one talking about this? Maybe they went to bed like I did?
Cloud and Bayonetta in Doubles sounds like a fun time. I want to see what kind of chaos that brings.So I woke up this morning to find out that
Nyanko and Nietono have teamed before and both have beaten people with a number of characters, but they still won out over some strong contenders. Their set with Kie and Choco is definitely worth watching, and also features double Peach!
In other what-can-hardly be-called-"news," Witch Time is indeed pretty silly in doubles.
Do really so many people think she is hard to play?
Those seem like pretty nice options. So those are the kinds of options that characters will have to learn how to deal with.
Sorry for misreading. What you said is true, but up-smash still must be used with caution because misspacing one near the ledge can be very deadly for luigi because the situation can be reversed and luigi may be the one near the ledge or offstage, in which case luigi is at a severe disadvantage. Up smash is great for covering jump and neutral getup tho. Also another way I use up smash at the ledge is to bait reactions. Up smash has low cool down, so I throw one out and then depending on the opponent's reaction I punish it with f-smash, d-smash, another up-smash, rising/falling nair, etc. First, I space myself so that I can't get hit by ledge getup attacks, and then I either throw out a d-smash or up-smash (the two smash attacks that have the lowest cooldown), and then wait for the opponent's reaction and punish their ledge getup accordingly. As a mixup, I also use falling/rising nair by waiting at the ledge. This can lead to some cool string setups also.
Try using the 2nd hit, works more for me
Because it's not!
Well Ike's Fair range just got increased, so its certainly a lot easier to land that out of Uthrow now. Nair works out of Uthrow as well now and has more vertical range than Uair did.Because it's not!
Kirby players don't like to admit that the character's bad, but like... what are Kirby's WINNING matchups? I think he might, MAYBE, have 5. I used to list Mewtwo as a winning matchup, but that was before Mewtwo got great buffs, and even then it might have not been a winning MU.
Kirby players like to say they beat Fox. This is true, if Fox freely runs into your Uptilts. But he won't! Because his neutral is far better! Because he's fast!
Kirby vs ZSS is not even! Crouch is good against a lot of her moves, but you're not threatening anybody when you crouch! And she can still hit you with Dsmash, Dtilt, SideB, (well spaced) Nair, etc! And she kills you insanely quickly! Upair chain -> UpB kills Kirby with the "gimmick" hitboxes, the ones that ceiling KO you before the final hit even connects, more often than you'd believe!
Kirby has some cool things vs Sheik, but it's not in his favor! I could argue for it MAYBE being even if Kirby has her Needles, but that requires actually getting them. And if Kirby's increased weight means Dthrow->Upair is no longer a guaranteed kill (GUARANTEED, mind you, it wasn't an airdodge 50/50) then that might help. But aside from that, we already know why Sheik is a top tier, and Kirby isn't.
When I tried to list Kirby's winning/even/losing matchups many months ago (like, 5 months) I had ~6 characters as winning matchups. Why don't I just go through the entire tier list and show why I think he's bad.
Top
S:
Kirby definitely loses to these dudes. All of them become surprisingly "more manageable" if he manages to Copy them, but again, Inhale is not a move you want to rely on in a high level tournament scenario. Despite the buffs it's gotten, it's still free damage if you make the wrong read, and Kirby's light weight does not agree with taking free damage.
High
A:
Kirby loses to these. I can see arguments for Fox/Pikachu being maybe even, but the rest are nightmares. Their Copy powers also do little to help!
B:
I'm not sure about Villager, but I can't think of any distinct advantages Kirby has in the MU, besides maybe stealing Pocket. Cloud is the usual "wins onstage, loses offstage" but Cloud wins onstage pretty hard. Ness is basically the same boat as Cloud, as far as Kirby is concerned.
Middle
C:
Pretty close to even against Falcon. Definitely a loss against Yoshi. Kirby does not have an advantaged state in this matchup.
D:
Luigi wins, at least a little. I'm pretty sure Dthrow->Cyclone is still a true KO combo on Kirby, at specific percentages. Pits I'm not sure, I imagined they were close to even. Peach seems pretty even, and depending on how effective her technical high damage combos/infinites are, it might even be in Kirby's favor! ROB is evenish maybe. His attacks outspeeds/outranges us on the ground and air, so lol. He's combo food though. Wario feels even, until he Wafts. Toon Link, not sure. Lucario is a terrible matchup for Kirby, since he has no reliable way of ending stocks before Lucario becomes God.
E:
Olimar is a nightmare matchup, until Kirby gets the power, then it's Kirby's favor. So.. still a bad matchup, because it's extremely difficult to land Inhale on him. Greninja wins a little, the mobility is that important. Ike is a pretty even MU, I feel. Not sure how Ike's throw KO confirms work on Kirby though. DK beats Kirby for sure. Mega Man is... super annoying. Probably MM's favor, as per usual. Pacman seems evenish maybe. Kirby has to get close to Bowser to fight him, and his speed is slow. Just imagine how that matchup goes! Robin's projectiles are easy to get around, and his recovery is easy to edgeguard, but dthrow->levin Upair WRECKS Kirby, so the matchup's pretty even.
Low
F:
Not sure about Roy. Bowser Jr seems pretty even. G&W seems pretty even. Lucas seems pretty even. Mewtwo seems pretty even. Falco is annoying because all his moves come out faster and are disjointed, but also seems pretty even. WFT struggles against Kirby's crouch and combos and edgeguarding, and Kirby does very well with her power. Might be a winning matchup.
G:
Shulk is tough unless you get his power. Evenish though. Marth has always been a personal nightmare for me, and he just got major buffs, so I would say it's a very losing matchup. Link is pretty even, we can't land against him because Grab, we can gimp him and win in super-close CQC, but everywhere else we lose. Duck Hunt plays keepaway very well against Kirby. Little Mac ... maybe you can win if you just camp the ledge and wait? Dr Mario is pretty close to even, but his speed/power ratio is no joke!
Bottom
H:
Dedede loses to Kirby in most regards, but he takes so incredibly long to kill that he has a ton of opporunities to make up any deficit. Lucina is basically Marth.
I:
Miis aren't real characters, Charizard seems evenish, Palutena seems evenish.
J:
Kirby uses Charge Shot better than Samus, and wins in CQC and combos her well, might be in his favor. Miis don't exist. Ganondorf is combo food, but amusingly, his Dtilt beats anything Kirby has on the ground, and his Upair beats anything he has in the air. It's a battle of extremes, I'd put it close to even. Jigglypuff wins in air-to-air, Kirby wins ground-to-ground, but the pace of the matchup feels like it's in Jigglypuff's favor because of air camping and stuff. Zelda idk. Playing really defensively against her is probably Kirby's victory.
Kirby's too "fair" of a character. He doesn't have any crazy stuff that makes it seem like "yes, Kirby definitely wins this matchup because (insert overwhelming trait here)!" The simple truth is, he has to suffer through his terrible neutral, rack up damage until usually 100% or higher, then land a smash, or knock them offstage and get a successful Bair/Dair, or get them even higher and then Bair, or Upthrow on a platform. He doesn't have any safe/early KO confirms, so any time he has an advantage in a matchup, the opponent will have multiple opportunities to even it back up.
That taken into account, I feel his matchups look something like this:
Possibly winning matchups (that I'm sure mains of these characters can argue against):
Pretty even matchups:
Losin':
Feel free to ask me to elaborate on any of these if you're interested. Note that there are a few I don't know about. One example is listing Ike as an even matchup, but maybe Ike DOES have a guaranteed throw kill combo that I don't know about, but any time I've played an Ike, it's seemed that Upthrow sends me too far to followup with an aerial at kill range. Still, taking Kirby's strengths and weaknesses into account, I doubt there are any more "winning" matchups, and I could see some of the winning/even ones being worse than listed, etc.
Yes, I am pessimistic about this character. I was plenty optimistic about him for about the first 6 months of the game's life, but it's just obvious that he doesn't have what it takes to compete. He's gotten a slew of buffs, but they're targeting the wrong things. Yay 2 more weight! Yay ~2 more KBG on 4 moves!
I also thought this statement was kinda funny lmaoS:
Kirby definitely loses to these dudes.
Uthrow to uair is never guaranteed on characters floatier than Mario if you DI away, but may be a 50/50. Uthrow->nair I haven't tested on Kirby, but I imagine it's very low rage only. Uthrow to fair can only guarantee death up to medium rage, around 70%. If you DI away, the fair kills much earlier and is guaranteed for a longer %.
I think @Raziek could probably explain it better. It IS one matchup where Kirby's crouch is actually useful, though. We can duck all forms of Thunder on reaction, which means we shouldn't ever be trapped in shield vs Arcthunder. We also use Thunder better than Robin does. We can roll around Elfire, and usually can DI out of it as well (PK Fire is far easier to DI though)Asdioh would you mind elaborating on the Robin-Kirby MU for me please? That's one MU I've never really liked for some reason and would like to hear more about.
Apparently they went to last game last hit when they played each other a few months ago, but like... that's the BEST Kirby, and how much Kirby experience do you think Nairo had beforehand? And he still won. It's only going to get worse as he learns the matchup more.
I dunno, 1.1.3's movement buffs were pretty spot on in addressing Kirby's neutral, as was the uthrow for dealing with shields at kill percents. Maybe it wasn't enough, but it's something.
level (people love to rave about his utilt but his fsmash was pretty busted too), but can still claim stocks at good percents from relatively small mistakes. Compare that to Meta Knight, whose only moves that hit remotely as hard are his fsmash and Dimensional Cape, neither of which are quick to start. He's meant to be an easy character for young players, like his games, who can stone/hammer and smash other inexperienced players with relative ease plus not have to think too much about recovery with five jumps, while having hidden depth in his normals for players looking to take him to the next level., is fishing for bairs.
stands? I was watching some games with Ally's MarioMikeKirby is a high-level player, and Nairo is a top-level player... second-best in the WORLD. And those were the results all the same.
Damn, I never even considered that in the past . I can only see him ending up in the middle somewhere if that's the case. Though I haven't seen much of him being played lately...which is understandable ^^;
I agree! Patches have done a lot for him, he's had most of his moveset buffed. I think he would be unquestionably bottom 5 if he hadn't been buffed by this point, especially since he would have no throw combos, and poor throw KO options. The Upthrow and runspeed changes were exactly what I wanted. In fact, back in November I wrote a notepad document with a wishlist of balance changes to the characters/game in general. I wrote it in notepad so I wouldn't go complaining on the internet :DI dunno, 1.1.3's movement buffs were pretty spot on in addressing Kirby's neutral, as was the uthrow for dealing with shields at kill percents. Maybe it wasn't enough, but it's something.
He's got a pretty well-rounded set of throws currently. Fthrow for low percent combos, dthrow for damage, uthrow for KOs and bthrow for edgeguards.
Something else that should be mentioned is that his smashes hit pretty damn hard for how fast they are. Not
The one consistent thing for him across all games past 64 though, even for the pile of junk that is
I wouldn't dismiss Mike, honestly. His play is incredibly patient and smart, and I think he'd be more of a well known player if he played a high tier. Again, we'll have to see the next time they play. Kirby's one of those characters that can seem hard, until you learn how to beat him.
See that's the thing, what can you really give Kirby that doesn't exist somewhere else? Better airspeed? Nope, that's Jigglypuff's thing. Disjoints and ultrafast aerials? Meta Knight (also even more ground speed). It's the same logic with some customs: why does Mii Gunner have better homing missiles than Samus? Because Samus has even better homing missiles with Relentless.
But Final Cutter generates a projectile unlike Climhazzard :O. Seriously though, the custom dilemma strikes again: a faster up b exists in Upper Cutter.
of this game in that regard.
I feel the same about the WFT/Kirby match up because John Numbers believes that's her worst match up. Personally, I don't see it. "Well, he's short." Yes but a lot of Wii Fit's hitboxes were fixed over the summer so I don't see the match up as just trying to land hits and grabs anymore. I personally think Metaknight and Pikachu are worse. Metaknight is basically Kirby 2.0 with better off stage options, better recovery, and better follow up options. Metaknight getting under Wii Fit is disastrous and is one of the few characters who genuinely DGAF about Wii Fit's ledge and offstage game. I'd argue Pikachu's bad for most of the same reasons, made even worse by the fact that Pikachu can just spam thunder jolt to pretty much neutralize anything Wii Fit might want to do on the edge.
TTTTTsd
So hey, about your second Fei Long post, wouldn't you agree that another underdeveloped character, in terms of Smash 4's meta at least, would be Link? Maybe characters like Samus and Ganondorf could apply too?
I know, but the risk is just way too damn high. Zelda's Fair and Bair are lottery tickets compared to Falco, Luigi, Mega Man?, and Wii Fit Trainer's Bair, the other aerials, the runner-ups, with low startup, but high knockback and damage. I'm not asking for her Fair and Bair to have good auto-cancel or landing lag as that would just promote the most degenerate hopped aerial game in the entire fighting games history, but asking for their sour-spots to be move from negative to slightly positive reward. Not asking for their sour-spot and late hits to suddenly go from say, "-100%" on-hit to "100%" on-hit, but something like Captain Falcon's sour and late Fair or even Lucas's sour and late Fair where she can at least push you away for a bit. If we go with the Captain Falcon sour and late hit route, then all she needs is +25 base knockback. It would lower the risk, but not drastically lower the risk.
To clarify, Falco only has 4 disjoints you'll need to worry about, technically 5, but that's his legs growing and shrinking back to normal size during Down Smash for some reason... not as noticeable as Fox's, though, but anyway... So, for those 4, 2 of them are "projectiles", quotes are there because Reflector is considered a projectile even though it's now while the other is of course, his Blaster. The other 2 is Dtilt and Fair. Dtilt's range I would guess is probably around Marth's Dtilt... Yeah... I don't know why, especially since they bothered to change the animation from Melee and Brawl while Fox kept his... It's disjointed about a 1/3 of where his tail ends. Fair's slightly disjointed in the air while landing Fair is heavily disjointed since it does not match the landing animation at all. Falco just lays there while a hitbox is placed in front of him. Nair's last hit is also slightly disjointed, but that's pretty much it. If you have a disjoint, if you out-range him, or if you can just get in before he can hit you, you're fine and sadly... Kirby runs faster than Falco. Just don't do predictable aerials anymore since he'll call upon Charlie Nash's old self and Somersault Shell you.Low
F:
Not sure about Roy. Bowser Jr seems pretty even. G&W seems pretty even. Lucas seems pretty even. Mewtwo seems pretty even. Falco is annoying because all his moves come out faster and are disjointed, but also seems pretty even. WFT struggles against Kirby's crouch and combos and edgeguarding, and Kirby does very well with her power. Might be a winning matchup.
And holding down neutral Special = Charge Bullet.
Anyway, people who've played Bayonetta enough or recently to remember, but when you activated Witch Time in her games, you were invincible during it, right? Or could you still get hit which makes sense, but you'd have to be distracted to not see an attack flying at you 5 centimeters per second. If it's the former, then I honestly think this is an oversight.
いけるやん！ pic.twitter.com/iNsK3TTmiq
— ZEZ(元:ジェファーソン) (@jefferson_kuugo) February 7, 2016
Is Witch Time too good in Smash? Perhaps. Should hitboxes end during Witch Time? I say yes only if in her games hitboxes are not active during Witch Time. If they are, then if they can code in something so that Witch Time in Smash lowers the priority of the opponent's hitboxes to as low as possible, then that would be fine too. To compensate, I don't think Bat Within should make the opponent slow down... Pretty sure in Bayonetta if you failed a Witch Time and Bat Within activated, all that happened was your enemy would be pushed back and you took no damage; http://bayonetta.wikia.com/wiki/Bat_Within. Because rolls exist in Smash... Maybe Bat Within should have windboxes instead... Imagine gimping characters like Ike and Little Mac because you just dodged. Brawl Ike Quick Draw nightmares, right?
Only if you're Bayonetta, really.
Not that it matters at this point to reply, but all I was saying is that her main strings have sort of obvious starts. Which... I'm gonna say now her frame data is good enough to where that won't be an issue, but to illustrate the point I had in mind, imagine if literally the only thing 1.0 Diddy had going for him was hoo ha. Everyone would know to look for grab setups.
On this thought, the Bayo/Cloud match up does seem really bad from a basic standpoint.If you have a bad offstage game or, worse, a recovery that doesn't autosnap the ledge, you're in for a world of hurt. People are saying that utilt alone trumps all his aerials too. Something I'm curious about is if Bayo can hard punish cross slash with witch time if all the slashes aren't perfect? Already seen several videos of Bayo hard punishing finishing touch with witch time and then doing whatever the hell she wants while he stands there with his sword in the air like a doof.
I just did this at avg Limit Side-B Kill % and couldn't escape it (87%)
