Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[irokex13]

you know, the more time goes on the less impressed I get with Bayonetta. Having Link-level frame data is terrible for her and quite a few of mer moves are completely unusable, such as all her tilts, her grabs and throws, forward smash [at least up and down smash have some uses.], and dash attack are particularly useless. On top of that, her smashes are further limited by the fact that it isn't a continuous hitbox as long as the arm is out, from what I can tell. Usually, I'm just able to shield it and then attack her while she's still in the smash animation. A lot of her grounded up-close options are awful except Jab and maybe Up B out of shield which can start your combos which will eventually lead into your kill m- oh wait, they don't. Bayonetta's main Witch Twist/Heel Slide/After Burner Kick combos don't kill off the top until very late [not even at 140 or higher], which forces you to fish for Dairs or try to Witch Time, which, may I add, doesn't get rid of Hitboxes and you can still move/put up a shield to beat it, especially if they try to go for a smash. Bayo's combos are great, sure, but she can't really kill out of them [unless I'm missing something] which leaves her at a disadvantage because she doesn't have a quick kill option outside of landing Hit of Dair. Because her grab is around Robin levels and her throws are also some of the worst set of throws in the game [no combo or kill throw], she also has issues beating shields, and because of her high startup she doesn't have very many reliable options out of her own shield except for Up-B, which doesn't come out super quickly, and because she has without a doubt the worst set of rolls in the game, she can't escape up-close pressure as easily as other characters, thus giving her a poor disadvantage except for witch time or bat within.

Bayonetta is a bad character with a few good moves, and her great combo potential is hindered by how difficult or impossible it is to kill out of said combos. She can't reliably fight the opponent up close because of her frame data, if it weren't for Heel Slide she'd have difficulty approaching and also can't reliably force approaches because Bullet Climax aims upwards and is pretty much saying "Hey, I'mma fire my guns, just don't go to a point where you can stand under them and throw a projectile at me" and bullet arts don't have knock back, so they therefore don't have hitstun, and therefore can't force approaches. She lacks a reliable way to get characters off of her when they do get up close due to her slow-to-start moveset and awful rolls, forcing her to rely on approximately 3 moves to actually do anything in those situations, which, even then, have their faults. A decent portion of her move set is completely useless in almost any situation, and whatever moves she can use at a given time will eventually get predictable.

Tl;dr: Combos are cool, but everything else is very iffy. are her 0-to-almost-never-death combos enough? Probably not.

Polite comments back on this, please, we don't need a flame war. I'm sure we'e all mature enough to act civil.

Also, here's a clip where Mewtwo's up smash clanks with the giant arm and the hitbox is just gone while Mewtwo is in the arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBguJYxd2e8

So yeah, you need to clank/shield the initial arm and Bayonetta's free to be attacked while the arm is still out and she's still in the animation. Great.

Please at least play the character before you cast judgment on her.

 

[R3D3MON]

I can PP with almost 100% accuracy, and im not that good. I don't think it is as risky as you imply. It is also way, way faster than rolling, in terms of when you get your first hitbox out.

It is utilized in high level play already. Its hard to see, but if you watch top level matches you'll see it pop up on occassion.

Besides, the newest ascended top level player is a PP master. so that should tell us about the future of the meta.

This is true, but like I said void uses PP mostly for combo extensions and such. Same thing for Larry. While other top professionals just opt to use rolling. I don't really see PP being used as a "SM4SH Wavedashing", and I would probably give this title to rolling since it is used much more frequently than PP in the neutral and such since it is highly abusable and safe (fast I-frames with no lag...).
I personally see the future meta incorporating more PP into combos/strings (PP opens up new realms of strings and true combos, such as Pit d-throw>PP u-tilt), but I do not see it becoming a major form of movement and positioning in the neutral, since the alternatives are safer and also require a lot less effort overall (while also being highly abusable...).

/endrant on defensive options in SM4SH

So, I came to this thread wondering what the state of characters' competitive values were, since I've basically been out of the community since Ryu came out and the patches are probably going to dwindle, or outright stop.

And of course, Zelda's at the bottom, Link's fallen down the ranks, and Lucina is still just a bad Marth.

Guess if I wanna start competing, I'll have to start fresh with some new characters. Hooray.

Go ahead and use Lucina, but prepare to face some losses/tough matchups if you do so. If you feel really passionate about using her, then go ahead, nobody is stopping you. Otherwise just use a more competitively viable character. This thread is not for complaining, we have seen far too much of that in the other competitive impressions thread...
Also here is a video that talks about winning competitively (also goes over a lot of what I want to say): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zJNyrFnsHY&index=4&list=PLF2EUdK5HdldfTc6WKy2P8ZTdPvZYjdOY.
Enjoy

 

[Luco]

you know, the more time goes on the less impressed I get with Bayonetta. Having Link-level frame data is terrible for her and quite a few of mer moves are completely unusable, such as all her tilts, her grabs and throws, forward smash [at least up and down smash have some uses.], and dash attack are particularly useless. On top of that, her smashes are further limited by the fact that it isn't a continuous hitbox as long as the arm is out, from what I can tell. Usually, I'm just able to shield it and then attack her while she's still in the smash animation. A lot of her grounded up-close options are awful except Jab and maybe Up B out of shield which can start your combos which will eventually lead into your kill m- oh wait, they don't. Bayonetta's main Witch Twist/Heel Slide/After Burner Kick combos don't kill off the top until very late [not even at 140 or higher], which forces you to fish for Dairs or try to Witch Time, which, may I add, doesn't get rid of Hitboxes and you can still move/put up a shield to beat it, especially if they try to go for a smash. Bayo's combos are great, sure, but she can't really kill out of them [unless I'm missing something] which leaves her at a disadvantage because she doesn't have a quick kill option outside of landing Hit of Dair. Because her grab is around Robin levels and her throws are also some of the worst set of throws in the game [no combo or kill throw], she also has issues beating shields, and because of her high startup she doesn't have very many reliable options out of her own shield except for Up-B, which doesn't come out super quickly, and because she has without a doubt the worst set of rolls in the game, she can't escape up-close pressure as easily as other characters, thus giving her a poor disadvantage except for witch time or bat within.

Bayonetta is a bad character with a few good moves, and her great combo potential is hindered by how difficult or impossible it is to kill out of said combos. She can't reliably fight the opponent up close because of her frame data, if it weren't for Heel Slide she'd have difficulty approaching and also can't reliably force approaches because Bullet Climax aims upwards and is pretty much saying "Hey, I'mma fire my guns, just don't go to a point where you can stand under them and throw a projectile at me" and bullet arts don't have knock back, so they therefore don't have hitstun, and therefore can't force approaches. She lacks a reliable way to get characters off of her when they do get up close due to her slow-to-start moveset and awful rolls, forcing her to rely on approximately 3 moves to actually do anything in those situations, which, even then, have their faults. A decent portion of her move set is completely useless in almost any situation, and whatever moves she can use at a given time will eventually get predictable.

Tl;dr: Combos are cool, but everything else is very iffy. are her 0-to-almost-never-death combos enough? Probably not.

Polite comments back on this, please, we don't need a flame war. I'm sure we'e all mature enough to act civil.

Also, here's a clip where Mewtwo's up smash clanks with the giant arm and the hitbox is just gone while Mewtwo is in the arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBguJYxd2e8

So yeah, you need to clank/shield the initial arm and Bayonetta's free to be attacked while the arm is still out and she's still in the animation. Great.

Just wanted to address a small point in this - bullet arts, whilst not having hitstun, will still force approaches. It's like a better Fox situation, kinda. Bayo will probably force the approach in a decent amount of MUs, but the question is, is that enough? Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[Emblem Lord]

After finally getting home and purchasing Corrin and Bayonetta (hooray for 3 hour flight delays, true combo into missed connections and overnight stays), I feel fairly confident that neither of them is garbage, at the very least. Corrin feels fairly solid and intuitive apart from his side special, which I'm still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around. But when you press buttons, he attacks in a direction you expect that button to cover, so I have no real complaints.

Bayonetta I can see being potentially a top tier on par with ZSS and Rosalina, but I can also see her being...not a top tier. It will depend on whether or not her players can reliably get in with her and do those ridonkulous 50% damage combos. She's fun as hell, though, and her animations just ooze camp, sass, and mobbing for the camera. (Seriously, look at her "oopsie I'm about to fall" animation when you're standing on a ledge.) She may ultimately be one of those characters you can't really have as a secondary due to the effort required to use her, but between absurd combos and Witch Time I wouldn't ever feel comfortable ruling her out as a threat.

As a final note, Bullet Climax fires at basically the perfect angle to dissuade short hop anything.

Stuff like this makes me happy.

Sometimes I worry that no one on this site really "gets" counter play and what neutral is.

But this line right here.....

Brings tears of joy to this grown man.

 

[Nobie]

I fought a Bayonetta yesterday and realized that because she SEEMS like a fast character it made me wary of approaching. This, I learned, was the wrong idea because as people mention Bayonetta's frame data isn't so great so I more or less needed to be in jab/dtilt range as Mewtwo and stuffing her. This turned out to work a lot better.

However, I got to thinking: not every character has even somewhat fast, reliable tilts, such as Ganondorf, Bowser, and Palutena. Whenever I would let Bayonetta get a move off it became a nightmare. Her hitboxes seem absolutely absurd: nair seems to beat everything, her jab range is really, really good, bullet arts cover air dodges, Bat Within means it's even hard to catch her with a hard read, and of course there's Witch Time. Like I know she isn't used much competitively, but what in the world is Palutena supposed to do in this matchup? Rely on bair and dash attack?

 

[NotLiquid]

Also, here's a clip where Mewtwo's up smash clanks with the giant arm and the hitbox is just gone while Mewtwo is in the arm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBguJYxd2e8

So yeah, you need to clank/shield the initial arm and Bayonetta's free to be attacked while the arm is still out and she's still in the animation. Great.

You realize this video is mostly just a goof right

If there's a circumstance where you Witch Time into a multi-hitting attack like that one, chances are that a more seasoned Bayo player will just wait for it to punish it regularly

 

[bc1910]

In that video, Bayo could have just Dtilt'd Mewtwo and then Usmash'd him. Not a big deal at all.

Bullet Climax shutting down short hopping is a huge part of why I think Bayo does well against ZSS. She is forced to rely on her standing ground game, which is actually pretty average... Dare I say below average? ZSS with limited short hops is nowhere near as scary because she cannot confirm her death combos with much ease at all.

This also contributes to why I don't think Sheik is Bayo's worst MU. Her hop game is neutered, BF won't work and charging needles is tricky because of how tall she is and because Dtilt bullet arts can simply outdamage her. Sheik can chip away with single or partially charged needles which works, but the damage output on this is so low that it leads into what I said previously - Bayo is good at making up percent deficits against Sheik. It only takes one mistimed needle for Sheik to eat a down-angled air ABK.

I have had more success using Luigi and Greninja. They are so good at standing under BC and throwing stuff; their damage output is solid. They force Bayo to play the neutral on their terms.

 

[UberMadman]

You realize this video is mostly just a goof right

If there's a circumstance where you Witch Time into a multi-hitting attack like that one, chances are that a more seasoned Bayo player will just wait for it to punish it regularly

Better than that, Bayo can just Down-Tilt them to pop them up and out of their attack animation and immediately Up-Smash afterwards.

EDIT: Greninja'd.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In that video, Bayo could have just Dtilt'd Mewtwo and then Usmash'd him. Not a big deal at all.

Bullet Climax shutting down short hopping is a huge part of why I think Bayo does well against ZSS. She is forced to rely on her standing ground game, which is actually pretty average... Dare I say below average? ZSS with limited short hops is nowhere near as scary because she cannot confirm her death combos with much ease at all.

This also contributes to why I don't think Sheik is Bayo's worst MU. Her hop game is neutered, BF won't work and charging needles is tricky because of how tall she is and because Dtilt bullet arts can simply outdamage her. Sheik can chip away with single or partially charged needles which works, but the damage output on this is so low that it leads into what I said previously - Bayo is good at making up percent deficits against Sheik. It only takes one mistimed needle for Sheik to eat a down-angled air ABK.

I have had more success using Luigi and Greninja. They are so good at standing under BC and throwing stuff; their damage output is solid. They force Bayo to play the neutral on their terms.

Faith in smash community slowly being restored

 

[Browny]

Ignore this i thought people were talking about her neutral b

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, I came to this thread wondering what the state of characters' competitive values were, since I've basically been out of the community since Ryu came out and the patches are probably going to dwindle, or outright stop.

And of course, Zelda's at the bottom, Link's fallen down the ranks, and Lucina is still just a bad Marth.

Guess if I wanna start competing, I'll have to start fresh with some new characters. Hooray.

Welcome back. For starters, the first official tier list for this game was released a few days ago so you'll want to review that. As for what's all the hub-bub right now, pretty much every swordsman below high tier (except Link) , Bowser Jr, and Falco got some really good buffs, people believe Bayo shows a lot of promise while beliefs about Corrin and his potential are often opposing.

That's not a horrible place to be. Mid tier in 4 is hardly bad.

This is true, especially since we've come off two Smash games where anything below high tier wasn't really even viable. Mid tier for this game is significantly less hopeless than it was for Melee or Brawl.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Stuff like this makes me happy.

Sometimes I worry that no one on this site really "gets" counter play and what neutral is.

But this line right here.....

Brings tears of joy to this grown man.

I mean, I'm still a fairly middling Smash player at the end of the day since I don't yet know a lot of people in my local scene and my job right now isn't giving me many opportunities to practice. But I'm not a complete ninny and like to think that I have a good grasp on the theory side of things, at least.

It occurs to me that given Sheik and ZSS's reliance on short hop, they might have deliberately given Bullet Climax the angle it has. Of course, it could also be to avoid redundancy with Bullet Arts. But if you take that idea and run with it, what other high tiers become less threatening when you can stifle their short hop game?

 

[Sonicfiend]

what other high tiers become less threatening when you can stifle their short hop game?

Well, that effectively halts almost all of Fox's and Meta Knight's forward momentum. It'll also keep Villager's pesky slingshots at bay.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby/Bayonetta doesn't seem to be bad, at all. We duck under all of her options except for her slide really, and we combo her into oblivion because of her bad mobility and no combo breakers. She's also easy to edge-guard.

Those are first impressions, the MU can turn out to be horrid and I wouldn't 2nd guess it, I'm not gonna make any bold statements here, lol.

 

[Das Koopa]

A lot of people seem to be complaining about Corrin's counter and feel the need to call him broken/overpowered because of it

It is kinda true that Counter killing at 50% is a bit silly but these videos people keep sending out seem to be without DI. What do you guys think?

 

[Chuva]

However, I got to thinking: not every character has even somewhat fast, reliable tilts, such as Ganondorf, Bowser, and Palutena. Whenever I would let Bayonetta get a move off it became a nightmare. Her hitboxes seem absolutely absurd: nair seems to beat everything, her jab range is really, really good, bullet arts cover air dodges, Bat Within means it's even hard to catch her with a hard read, and of course there's Witch Time.

I'm having success using Bowser's tilts (and jab) in this matchup because of their range and intangible hurtbox. Retreating pivot grab on a read also punish her jab and FAir since it extends her hurtbox forward considerably. Trades, as to be expect, favors Bowser.

Also worth mentioning that Bowser can crawl under Bullet Climax from full-stage distance until flamethrower range. Alternatively, he can just force his way in since he is not affected by BC hitstun because of the Tough Guy passive (one of the best applications of Tough Guy in the game, imo)

But if you take that idea and run with it, what other high tiers become less threatening when you can stifle their short hop game?

 

[Smog Frog]

good thing doesnt really care since he doesnt really sh much and he can spin dash under the bullets.

 

[David Viran]

Kirby/Bayonetta doesn't seem to be bad, at all. We duck under all of her options except for her slide really, and we combo her into oblivion because of her bad mobility and no combo breakers. She's also easy to edge-guard.

Those are first impressions, the MU can turn out to be horrid and I wouldn't 2nd guess it, I'm not gonna make any bold statements here, lol.

I literally went into training mode with short crouches and tested what moves hit. All of bayos tilts do, I guess her smashes do, Nair and dair hit too. I forgot about specials. I need to test up b then.

 

[Dr.Smex]

A lot of people seem to be complaining about Corrin's counter and feel the need to call him broken/overpowered because of it

It is kinda true that Counter killing at 50% is a bit silly but these videos people keep sending out seem to be without DI. What do you guys think?

It's a combination of bad DI, mewtwo being light(Assuming we're talking about the mewtwo video), countering a fully charged ball and the counter itself sending people straight up unlike the other counters which for some reason send people to the corners of the blastzones. Don't get me wrong it's pretty good counter but it's no witch time lol.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

A lot of people seem to be complaining about Corrin's counter and feel the need to call him broken/overpowered because of it

It is kinda true that Counter killing at 50% is a bit silly but these videos people keep sending out seem to be without DI. What do you guys think?

Tell them to stop being predictable. The fault is entirely on them to not hesitate/grab/do nothing and wait.

 

[Nobie]

Marth buffs are so real Ally switched his Twitter avatar to Marth: https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly

The switch away from Mario might be happening, just not in the way people expected.

 

[HoSmash4]

I just wanna put this in: Sheik vs Bayonetta in the 50/50. Sheik doesnt have control. Neither does Bayonetta.

It's a straight 50/50 coin flip. One dies or the other.

Witch time is legit.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I also think that while Bayo's disadvantage is amazing, I don't think it's anywhere near ZSS's nonexistent disadvantage.

Bayo has a lot of ways to move herself very far away from people very quickly, but this really requires them to not be right next to you (as weird as this sounds). Flip Jump escapes disadv. for free because it has a ****load of invul frames and is also burst movement. Divekick is great for mixups if they're chasing Bayo very far vertically but if she's right next to someone it's not quite as effective as say, Flip Jump.

Still incredibly good disadv. state though. My final thoughts on Bayo is that I don't think she'll be on that Sheik/ZSS/Rosa level because she was designed to have flaws that, for the most part, can be played around to some degree by a lot of chars. That being said, she's super obviously viable and I believe she can win tournaments, no doubt in my mind. She just (from my experience playing her) feels remarkably honest overall because she's not exactly low execution and her neutral isn't super easy to play (IMO), at all, even with Witch Twist. Dunno, this is just my thoughts though.

 

[Zage]

Really solid list. The only thing that struck me as odd was having letter tiers all the way down to J, I feel like it communicates a larger gap in power than what actually exists in S4 currently.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm having success using Bowser's tilts (and jab) in this matchup because of their range and intangible hurtbox. Retreating pivot grab on a read also punish her jab and FAir since it extends her hurtbox forward considerably. Trades, as to be expect, favors Bowser.

Also worth mentioning that Bowser can crawl under Bullet Climax from full-stage distance until flamethrower range. Alternatively, he can just force his way in since he is not affected by BC hitstun because of the Tough Guy passive (one of the best applications of Tough Guy in the game, imo)

Bowser/Bayo doesn't feel that tough, though obviously Boozer's combo food if he messes up. He does have an advantage in that Bayo's best tool in neutral is Up-b OOS while his is grab. Bayo actually feels more annoying for Ike because Bullet Climax does screw with his SH stuff and Side-B can slide under him.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I literally went into training mode with short crouches and tested what moves hit. All of bayos tilts do, I guess her smashes do, Nair and dair hit too. I forgot about specials. I need to test up b then.

Yeah, but remember her frame data is bad. She has options when we crouch, but crouching gives us more options, and we can PP u-tilt OOS for big combos on her. I need to do a bit more testing for more info, though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Random notes.

- Bayo has easy hit confirms that give her around 25% damage each. She can follow DI or just cut her combos short. It's not as simple as DI away.

- Witch Twist allows Bayo to punish the smallest error with a combo. Consistency my friends. Its a thing. And she has it.

- Her disadvantage state is among the best in the game. This is not even a debate.

- Her edgeguarding is also some of the best in the game. Something as simple as run off dair is very effective and tough to deal with.

- Instant Air Dive Kick. Lrn2fightinggame noobs

- D-tilt is the go to poke. if you arent using it, you're doin it wrong.

- Witch Twist to dive kick away or witch twist jump then dive kick away is basically the ultimate set play escape if you encounter a situation you just dont want to deal with. Few chars can consistently deal with it. It's very good and very braindead.

- Witch Twist can beat out Clouds Dair. da hell?

- Her roll is bad. You shouldnt be rolling much though anyways.

Seriously this character has moves she doesnt commit to at all.

And you guys are calling mid tier?

What in the actual ****?

 

[Luigi player]

Anyone wondering about how heavy the new characters are or how much of a change the new weights bring can look at the Survival Rankings thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-survival-rankings.400617/

I've updated the first post and fixed some things.

Bayonetta is a light character by just looking at her weight.
She survives decently vertically though, because of good fallspeed(?), just below average.
To the sides it's a different story... she goes from being almost as light as Mewtwo to a bit below average.

To anyone wondering why it varies: probably because of the angle of moves or something (I haven't really figured out why so I'm just assuming). It's weird, but different moves bring different results.

Corrin is a mid weight.
Vertically, they survive pretty long! Tied at rank 15 in the ranking (with Samus, Charizard, Roy and Ryu).
Horizontally they aren't living as long and more according to them being mid weights. Being about at the middle of the roster.

If you're just looking for the differences because of reduced/increased weight my last post in the thread sums that up.
_____

Going back to topic:

I'm not sure what to think of Bayonetta. It's really difficult to win with her, I feel. But she does have potential with all of those combos she packs, and of course with Witchtime, which can turn around matches really quickly. I'm interested on how she'll develop, hopefully she will have a place in the metagame. She's definitely fun to watch and play.

Corrin I'm not too sure about. At first they felt slow and kinda bad, but after using them a little more and playing against others who got a feel for them it felt like they might actually have potential too. I'd guess at least mid tier for now, gonna have to see how far players will take them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Random notes.

- Bayo has easy hit confirms that give her around 25% damage each. She can follow DI or just cut her combos short. It's not as simple as DI away.

- Witch Twist allows Bayo to punish the smallest error with a combo. Consistency my friends. Its a thing. And she has it.

- Her disadvantage state is among the best in the game. This is not even a debate.

- Her edgeguarding is also some of the best in the game. Something as simple as run off dair is very effective and tough to deal with.

- Instant Air Dive Kick. Lrn2fightinggame noobs

- D-tilt is the go to poke. if you arent using it, you're doin it wrong.

- Witch Twist to dive kick away or witch twist jump then dive kick away is basically the ultimate set play escape if you encounter a situation you just dont want to deal with. Few chars can consistently deal with it. It's very good and very braindead.

- Witch Twist can beat out Clouds Dair. da hell?

- Her roll is bad. You shouldnt be rolling much though anyways.

Seriously this character has moves she doesnt commit to at all.

And you guys are calling mid tier?

What in the actual ****?

Oh I won't argue with any of this like, at all. Who the **** called her mid tier? I just don't think's she on that ZSS/Sheik level but she's really just outside of it.

I think more than her combos, I want people to develop her edgeguard game. You can go SERIOUSLY far out with her aerials and divekick + Witch Twist, it's AMAZING. Abuse that godlike recovery!

Also her roll isn't bad if you do it on reaction because it turns into Bat Within. Same with airdodge I think. Is probably worth doing if you really need to get out of a jam since I don't think Witch Twist has invincibility? Dunno, just stuff I've found from experimentation with her, could be totes wrong haha.

I just don't think she's super dishonest or largely oppressive is all. She feels like, really well designed.

 

[Sonicninja115]

ReP

For the Diddy, Esam thing, Diddy can roll behind to continue his Dtilt strings, he has to hit them first to be safe. If they are DI'ing away from the first string, then it is super easy to continue it, however, there are DI options that negate it. Same goes for Esam. He usually hits them first, QA or reads them.

As a tool, I love PP. PP backwards to avoid an approach option and then punish. PP-Shield to get some more breathing room. PP-tilts as Shulk is insane. Also, only the last two inputs are frame perfect.
Left-1-5
Right- 2-6 (depending on when you press left)
Neutral 3-7 (depending on when you press Right)

Void has to go for frame or semi-frame perfect PP's to get his combos, which is why he messes up about 1/10.

It is also great for microspacing. If you need to move a bit over to hit with a tilt or a projectile. As well as avoiding the opponents spaced moves.

 

[Kofu]

I haven't seen any followup posts so I'm not sure if this has been covered, but someone mentioned that Witch Time is ineffective against projectiles. That's not entirely true. Using it prevents her from taking damage from the projectile, and there seems to be a radius where the projectile user will be affected too. Long-range projectiles aren't threatened but close-range ones are.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also worth noting is that for as slow as Bayo jab is, it is probably the best rapid jab in the game on hit. I don't believe you can SDI out, I've never had anyone fall out when I hit them directly in front of me at like, any %, so you'll always get your money's worth when you land this move.

It's Frame 9 but its reward on hit is both consistent and very good.

 

[bc1910]

Corrin is annoying me.

The side B kicks seem to have some sort of superior priority as they usually beat other attacks rather than trading. If you're not playing a fast character you're probably not going to be able to punish kick away, and even kick through can be tough to punish.

Corrin's roll is REALLY good. A roll that good on a character with so much walling potential doesn't sit well with me.

Corrin's disadvantage state is inflated to a level vastly above where it should be (IMO) because of Counter Surge. The risk/reward in chasing him is usually skewed because one counter at the top of the screen, or even the middle of the screen, can spell death at 50%.

I don't think Corrin is overpowered - he's a solid, decently balanced character. But I think a lot of annoying tools have been rolled into one character. He's actually becoming one of my least favourite characters to fight, which is a shame.

 

[19_]

I don't know know about you guys but I am looking forward to watching Shockwave on Wednesday.

We might get a good showing from bayo thanks to @AeroLink_the_SoulMaster .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only thing that struck me as odd was having letter tiers all the way down to J, I feel like it communicates a larger gap in power than what actually exists in S4 currently.

Actually that's the part of the tier list they've got exactly right. The gap between the likes of Sheik and Puff/Zelda is massive. There are worlds between those characters.

 

[DblCrest]

Are the gaps as big as say Fox and Kirby in Melee and Metaknight and Ganon in Brawl? Or is it better to view the game by itself in this case?

Though we've got 50+ characters now. What comes in to play when deciding on having + and - for the groups?

The gripes I have with Bayo right now is honestly getting the KO which I still need to practice on. You can't just spam witch time to get a guaranteed smash attack and even that is risky. I'm still finding her a bit bizarre.
Also bat within seems to be just as much of a surprise to player attacking and the one playing Bayo I've noticed. It's hard to describe it's like a one second pace breaker that catches both players off guard. Or something like that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh I won't argue with any of this like, at all. Who the **** called her mid tier? I just don't think's she on that ZSS/Sheik level but she's really just outside of it.

I think more than her combos, I want people to develop her edgeguard game. You can go SERIOUSLY far out with her aerials and divekick + Witch Twist, it's AMAZING. Abuse that godlike recovery!

Also her roll isn't bad if you do it on reaction because it turns into Bat Within. Same with airdodge I think. Is probably worth doing if you really need to get out of a jam since I don't think Witch Twist has invincibility? Dunno, just stuff I've found from experimentation with her, could be totes wrong haha.

I just don't think she's super dishonest or largely oppressive is all. She feels like, really well designed.

So a frame 4 move that can be used as an anti air, a punish, an approach, defensive response, that has no consequences on block or whiff and leads to death at high percents or a solid combo at lower percents.....isn't dishonest in your mind?

Holy ****, you must play nothing but Marvel vs games, if Witch Twist registers as honest in your opinion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So a frame 4 move that can be used as an anti air, a punish, an approach, defensive response, that has no consequences on block or whiff and leads to death at high percents or a solid combo at lower percents.....isn't dishonest in your mind?

Holy ****, you must play nothing but Marvel vs games, if Witch Twist registers as honest in your opinion.

I've dealt with dumber **** than that my friend. When you play Super Turbo there's a lot of things that fly by when you go to Smash, so it seems ; ). I don't really come from a natively Smash background but that's basically like getting knocked down by Claw in ST except Claw's AA goes further, has a wider hitbox, and he's also incredibly fast and has some of the most devastating mid-range in his own games. Claw Knockdown = almost guaranteed death if you don't hit the 1f reversal window.

It's not Marvel that's trained me, it's really old SF games. They are true games of fundamentals but they have a LOT of grimy ****. That's with ST Balrog mixups notwithstanding, as well.....Jab Headbutt = LOL.

That being said, no, the move isn't really super dishonest in my mind. Crazy? Yes, but not really super dishonest to me =P.

 

[Asdioh]

Actually that's the part of the tier list they've got exactly right. The gap between the likes of Sheik and Puff/Zelda is massive. There are worlds between those characters.

The Melee tier list goes from SS to G, 9 letters total, the Brawl tier list goes from SS to F, which is 11 letters (but only thanks to pluses and minuses lol) and the 4 tier list goes from S to... J, also 11 separate letters. Actually, looking at them all, the only tier list that doesn't look like a mess is the 64 one, which is a unique case, since the cast is much smaller, and the viability is a little closer. Still, however unlikely it is for a bottom tier to beat a top tier in tournament, I think it's far more likely in 4 than it is in Melee/Brawl. You wouldn't see that from looking at this tier list though.

Corrin is annoying me.

The side B kicks seem to have some sort of superior priority as they usually beat other attacks rather than trading. If you're not playing a fast character you're probably not going to be able to punish kick away, and even kick through can be tough to punish.

Corrin's roll is REALLY good. A roll that good on a character with so much walling potential doesn't sit well with me.

Corrin's disadvantage state is inflated to a level vastly above where it should be (IMO) because of Counter Surge. The risk/reward in chasing him is usually skewed because one counter at the top of the screen, or even the middle of the screen, can spell death at 50%.

I don't think Corrin is overpowered - he's a solid, decently balanced character. But I think a lot of annoying tools have been rolled into one character. He's actually becoming one of my least favourite characters to fight, which is a shame.

I wasn't aware his roll is that good, but I agree that the risk/reward is WAY skewed on his Counter. It occasionally kills as early as Rest, or possibly even earlier, to put it in perspective.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ST was pretty wild. Thawk was low tier but had the death typhoon OS in the corner. Rog with the headbutt loops, sim with noogie loop, Claw with Izuna loop, etc.

**** ST was AWESOME!!!