Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintropy]

Good list overall, any reservations I have with it have been said already, so I won't dwell on it.

I'd love to see where the Miis could go if they had people really playing them. I know guest size / 1111 is competitive suicide, I'd just be interested in seeing if they'd be in any way serviceable in the hands of a good player. That I know of, default Mii is kind of devoid of representation - they're indeed a rare and intriguing kind.

 

[S_B]

Although Nairo's claim is kind of bleak about no nerfs to Sheik and no buffs to Zelda. That does leave like, 50+ characters who could still make a boom though which is nice.

Wait, I thought he said ZSS felt the same...?

Do we have the actual quote from Nairo about this?

(arg, this waiting for the patch is maddening...)

 

[Yonder]

Wait, I thought he said ZSS felt the same...?

Do we have the actual quote from Nairo about this?

(arg, this waiting for the patch is maddening...)

Both of them he said, I think the link is on page 4 here?

Makes me think Sakurai is definitely opting to take the route of buffing characters instead of nerfs. But is forgetting Zelda and Jiggs for whatever reason.

 

[David Viran]

Wait, I thought he said ZSS felt the same...?

Do we have the actual quote from Nairo about this?

(arg, this waiting for the patch is maddening...)

He said he tried basically the top 12 characters including zss, ryu, sheik, etc.

 

[Dinoman96]

Both of them he said, I think the link is on page 4 here?

Makes me think Sakurai is definitely opting to take the route of buffing characters instead of nerfs. But is forgetting Zelda and Jiggs for whatever reason.

Maybe he just doesn't know what to do with them. Zelda for example really is just a bad character to the core and basically needs a revamp in order to ever work in Smash.

 

[jespoke]

Wait, I thought he said ZSS felt the same...?

Do we have the actual quote from Nairo about this?

(arg, this waiting for the patch is maddening...)

I cant put quotation marks around it, but he mentioned he tested the top characters and Zelda and they felt the same to play, but that he doesn't know the %-s everyone does so he didnt take note of damage

 

[KenMeister]

This tier list will change, with Bayonetta and Corrin joining tomorrow.
Also, Ganon is very unexperimented on, he will get higher on the list. His Down throw to wizard kick needs to be used more(Perfect combo), because it can be used for every character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXgzmvtciBA

That doesn't even work if you DI up and away, even in dittos. lol

 

[Blobface]

I cant put quotation marks around it, but he mentioned he tested the top characters and Zelda and they felt the same to play, but that he doesn't know the %-s everyone does so he didnt take note of damage

Not to discredit Nairo or anything but...
I once booted up Smash 4 the day of a patch, jumped into training with Ganon, and started throwing moves out. I was amazed. Ganon's D-air felt so much faster! What a great buff!

I then realized the patch hadn't downloaded yet.

Placebo: Not even once.

 

[Mario766]

I'm putting very little into any 'feels'

Let's just get raw game data.

 

[jespoke]

The "feels" of Nairo that we can use for something is combos working the same, specifically Sheik Fairs and Ryu's U-tilts still being a thing

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, I trust Nario's judgement (especially for ZSS and Zelda to a lesser extent) insofar as basics for the top tiers go. A reasonable conclusion we could draw from his impressions is that there are no big/major changes to these characters. You likely wouldn't pick up on things like slight damage buffs or nerfs to moves while playing some friendlies, especially to characters you aren't super familiar with.

 

[S_B]

The "feels" of Nairo that we can use for something is combos working the same, specifically Sheik Fairs and Ryu's U-tilts still being a thing

I guess the real question is: did he notice ANY changes in any of the other characters at all?

Oy, we'll know come tomorrow, or maybe Nintendo will screw up and release it early by accident again...

It may very well be that this tier list will remain mostly accurate for a while yet...

 

[C0rvus]

Not that it would be a bad thing. Heaven forbid we ever start to get a grasp on the meta.

 

[S_B]

Not that it would be a bad thing. Heaven forbid we ever start to get a grasp on the meta.

There are good and bad elements to it. Changes have a way of redistributing the number of players labbing each character which can kind of even everything out a bit.

For example, when Diddy was nerfed, Zero obviously stuck with him but many people straight up didn't want to play with Diddy minus the hoo-haa. Likewise, DK got some following when he received the ding-dong, and we've seen Bowser get more people picking him up as a secondary after his buff.

If someone even SAID "Looks like Sheik got nerfed...", half the people maining her would probably drop her immediately without even testing the changes first.

Once the final patch has officially hit, the chance of any of the lower tiers getting a surge in the number of people labbing them and fleshing out their metas drops dramatically.

We'll see come tomorrow night either way. It'd just be nice if some of the lower tiers would be given a reason for people to pick them up and try them again.

I'd also love to see JP get buffed to the point that Hungrybox might pick her up again...

 

[Browny]

Not to discredit Nairo or anything but...
I once booted up Smash 4 the day of a patch, jumped into training with Ganon, and started throwing moves out. I was amazed. Ganon's D-air felt so much faster! What a great buff!

I then realized the patch hadn't downloaded yet.

Placebo: Not even once.

Dude the biggest placebo affect in this game I swear is some sort of anti-placebo effect with Mewtwos 1.1.3 buffs.

So many people were like 'omg look at these combos he can do! fair chains! confusion in mid air! jab-utilt-usmash! omg hes a whole new character!'

When literally all of these combos were possible from day 1 Mewtwo. People getting hyped and surprised by things they would have known if they played the character just once.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dude the biggest placebo affect in this game I swear is some sort of anti-placebo effect with Mewtwos 1.1.3 buffs.

So many people were like 'omg look at these combos he can do! fair chains! confusion in mid air! jab-utilt-usmash! omg hes a whole new character!'

When literally all of these combos were possible from day 1 Mewtwo. People getting hyped and surprised by things they would have known if they played the character just once.

To be honest I think I was most excited about the new Nair stuff he could do. Having those bad boys be more than just frame perfect (Nair dragging combos into the ground are way more viable) was just great for me when I gave him a try.

Landing Fair was beautiful too, but I agree. People generally kind of forgot Mewtwo's combo game existed before this patch, but it happens. This was the story of Dr. Mario until Nairo did a thing with him lol.

Also I'm not entirely confident in the idea of the next patch being the actual last one. Not that I think it's impossible or anything, but in consideration of how this game is updated, sometimes patches just happen with no real reason anyways so mmyeah. I feel like eventually the active cycle will end.

 

[Ffamran]

Both of them he said, I think the link is on page 4 here?

Makes me think Sakurai is definitely opting to take the route of buffing characters instead of nerfs. But is forgetting Zelda and Jiggs for whatever reason.

Changing characters in like 3 days is not something that should be done unless there's a major issue like Diddy's grab glitch. That's when hotfixes come in, but balance patches really need time... Case in point: the butchering of Link's jab 1 recovery over a panic and foaming at the mouth, rabid fans screaming at them when in reality, you could freaking (S?)DI out.

Things don't happen within days, especially large projects. It took them several patches to change Fox's jab and Luigi's D-throw. You can complain and demand all you want, but they have to test it out to make sure stuff doesn't blow up. Also, plans don't always go accordingly. I mean, would any of you say the tier list was worthless if Bayonetta and Corrin were released in late February? Or March even which would mean they were delayed.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Personally, with how well (imo) they've done with the patches of the past year I'd be extremely surprised if tomorrow they just said "Well guys that was our last bit of DLC. We're gonna toss these two brand new characters out here and I'm sure they'll be absolutely perfect. See you guys next game." I mean yeah okay some characters haven't been changed substantially so they MIGHT but I'm leaning more towards the idea that they'll at least keep tabs for a little while to see if anything crazy happens. That said, I do believe this will be the last major patch, and that anything else will mostly be for either "holy frick Dragon Lunge/Witch Time/insert buff or move here is fricking stupid" or for any long term change ideas that they finally feel are balanced enough to release.

 

[S_B]

Things don't happen within days, especially large projects. It took them several patches to change Fox's jab and Luigi's D-throw. You can complain and demand all you want, but they have to test it out to make sure stuff doesn't blow up.

This is actually the best chance we have that there are more changes in 1.1.4 and we've not seen them yet (through Nairo, I mean).

It's possible that the version Nairo and Aba played included Bayo and Corrin but not the other character changes because the testing of those was still being finalized and tested.

Again, we'll see. I suppose that, either way, it would likely take a good bit of time to fully say that this tier list has actually changed, even with dramatic changes to characters.

 

[TurboLink]

So when Nairo played the new patch he said ZSS, Ryu, and Zelda felt the same. That doesn't mean too much, but if Zelda is untouched, I'm worried about this patch. I may be asking for too much, but if they ignored the standout bad characters again, I've more or less officially lost hope.

Edit: This is why I never like to post on mobile.

What in god's name was giving you hope before?!

 

[Emblem Lord]

What in god's name was giving you hope before?!

Seriously, this. You are setting yourself up for heartbreak if you or anyone else is waiting for a miracle patch.

 

[Yonder]

Seriously, this. You are setting yourself up for heartbreak if you or anyone else is waiting for a miracle patch.

Idk, worked for M2 last patch, for me and most other M2 mains anyways.

...and Bowser, imo.

 

[S_B]

What in god's name was giving you hope before?!

I think the most hope we have at this point is the fact that most indicators suggest that Sakurai had no idea you could do the kinds of things that Nairo and Aba were doing with ZSS and MK, unless that wasn't what he was "amazed" about.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think the most hope we have at this point is the fact that most indicators suggest that Sakurai had no idea you could do the kinds of things that Nairo and Aba were doing with ZSS and MK, unless that wasn't what he was "amazed" about.

That was faaaaaar too recent to have an impact on a patch.

Patch was probably approved weeks ago.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Idk, worked for M2 last patch, for me and most other M2 mains anyways.

...and Bowser, imo.

Mewtwo wasnt fundamentally flawed. He just needed some tweaks. His actual design works. Bowser IS fundamentally flawed but his mobility issue was mitigated coming into this game. Then he just needed more reward and he got it.

Chars like Zelda are just....ugh shes a damn mess is what she is.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Idk, worked for M2 last patch, for me and most other M2 mains anyways.

...and Bowser, imo.

Hoping for your low tier to get buffed into midtier is somewhat plausible. Hoping for your midtier to get a minor QOL buff isn't impossible. Hoping for a patch that addresses all or most of the game's balance problems in one go is probably too much to ask for. Don't expect patches to make your main nationally viable, since the only two chars to have gotten buffed and are at that level are Villager and MK, and they got those buffs when the meta was far less developed.

 

[S_B]

That was faaaaaar too recent to have an impact on a patch.

Patch was probably approved weeks ago.

Oh, I mean for 1.1.5, sorry.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Or maybe he was amazed because Nairo and Aba are great players..

WHODA THUNK IT?

 

[S_B]

Or maybe he was amazed because Nairo and Aba are great players..

WHODA THUNK IT?

Which is why I said "unless that wasn't what he was "amazed" about." in the post above.

But he did also say that he thought it was a waste that people weren't using side smashes to KO each other in lieu of weaker options, which is a "Wait, what?" moment for pretty much everyone who has been paying attention because it suggests that Sakurai doesn't know that "safe options" >>>>>>>> "hard reads"in SSB4 and have basically been that way since the game was released.

Ergo, Sakurai not knowing that MK and ZSS could KO-confirm so easily doesn't seem all that far-fetched...

 

[Vipermoon]

Which is why I said "unless that wasn't what he was "amazed" about." in the post above.

He did also say that he thought it was a waste that people weren't using side smashes to KO each other, so maybe 1.1.5 will be known throughout the land as the "Fsmashes Rising" patch.

I hope not. The last patch already raised the kbg of many smash attacks and lower level players already spam them like Sakurai wants them to.

Edit: even without rage, smash attacks are stronger than ever

 

[S_B]

I hope not. The last patch already raised the kbg of many smash attacks and lower level players already spam them like Sakurai wants them to.

Edit: even without rage, smash attacks are stronger than ever

I actually edited my post a bit, but yes, smashes are pretty darn spammable at the lower level (which is fine, IMO).

At the higher level, the risk vs. reward for using them tends to be heavily lopsided into the "too risky" category, with the exception of moves like MK's Fsmash and Gdorf's Usmash, both of which you can react after immediately and are difficult to punish.

 

[JesterJaded]

Which is why I said "unless that wasn't what he was "amazed" about." in the post above.

He did also say that he thought it was a waste that people weren't using side smashes to KO each other, so maybe 1.1.5 will be known throughout the land as the "Fsmashes Rising" patch.

It will be known to me as the "Silent Bayonetta" patch. Or better yet, "The Day Sakurai Had Mercy on my Ears".

In a scenario where MK and ZSS don't lose their ladder confirms, Greninja as a counterpick for those two characters actually sounds rather interesting. Does anyone know how that matchup goes?

 

[Big-Cat]

Mewtwo wasnt fundamentally flawed. He just needed some tweaks. His actual design works. Bowser IS fundamentally flawed but his mobility issue was mitigated coming into this game. Then he just needed more reward and he got it.

Chars like Zelda are just....ugh shes a damn mess is what she is.

No, he's not.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is greninja really a counter pick? I guess metaknight could alter his play style to an edgegaurd game and maybe zss can alter her playstyle for that match up to avoid getting punished for getting the correct reads. ( for some reason i feel like his hitstun canceling could be taken out this patch.)

 

[S_B]

In a scenario where MK and ZSS don't lose their ladder confirms, Greninja as a counterpick for those two characters actually sounds rather interesting. Does anyone know how that matchup goes?

I think at that point you'd be better off just MAKING it work with Greninja, since not being laddered to death automatically puts Gren in a far better place than, well...the rest of the cast.

 

[C0rvus]

What in god's name was giving you hope before?!

Uhh, the last patch? Another of those would be ideal. Elevate a couple more characters that need it. Hoping for bad characters to get some love is far from unprecedented.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No, he's not.

Grapplers arent flawed designs inherently?

What the **** have you been smoking?

 

[Big-Cat]

Grapplers arent flawed designs inherently?

What the **** have you been smoking?

I'd like to ask you the same thing if you ignore the fact that EVERY character has drawbacks. Singling out grapplers is stupid for that reason.

 

[S_B]

Grapplers arent flawed designs inherently?

They work fine in other games and they actually work fairly well in this one.

DK and Bowser are the two biggest grapplers and they're ranked at 27th and 30th on this list, respectively, with another 27 characters considered worse than they are. And don't forget, DK and Bowser are placed where they are with the opinion that the characters below them probably lose to them (which most do).

The problem isn't that grapplers don't work. It's that they have a hard time working in a game with characters with overwhelming speed and frame data, because those characters are overpowered and most of the cast has a problem with them (even the character with a one-hit kill confirm loses to Sheik).

And by this logic, projectile based zoning characters don't "work" either because Sheik can out camp the campers.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's always the possibility the setups Nairo played on weren't final.

But I'm really really doubtful anybody but Cloud would of been changed much anyway.