Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

How is 's matchup spread with S and A tier? This is the only argument I can think of for including him in the top 5. To my knowledge, he has a great matchup spread versus the three S tiers (-1 vs Sheik, +1 vs ZSS, 0 or +1 vs Rosa). Is my understanding of his MUs outdated or incorrect?

None of those seem glaringly wrong. People are down on Pika mostly due to inconsistent placings from ESAM and inconsistent results below him. His MU spread outside of that isn't as consistently positive as you'd expect from a top 5 character. I think those are due to Pika struggling against Diddy and the plumbers. As long as those MUs against the top of the meta stay strong Pika won't disappear from the meta, but would more likely wind up on the lower end of the core viable characters as one who can compete but benefits greatly from a secondary to deal with problem MUs. Pika looks more like an antimeta character than a consistently dominant one and the bottom of top 10 seems to reflect that reality better than top 5.

 

[S_B]

One thing to note, everyone (and this may be irrelevant come the patch, god willing...), is that characters are supposed to have weaknesses of some kind. Ideally, this should be something like a blind spot in their moveset (such as having no good options for hitting above them), poor spacing options, bad recovery, poor neutral, etc. to compensate for their strengths.

Sadly, "being light" isn't a weakness for any character who can thoroughly overwhelm most opponents.

If you can regularly deal 100% to your opponent while typically taking only ~10-30% in return, you're the heaviest character in the game.

 

[Ulevo]

Falcon belongs in Greninja tier. You can't be top 15 with a 35-65 Sheik MU.

You know, I constantly see Greninja mains whining about their Sheik match up and using this excuse to justify their performance and tier placement. Meta Knight has a bad Sheik match up. Ito has talked about dropping the character, and Tyrant is using Sheik vs Sheik. Yet he is still placing quite well.

This sounds a lot like the Ness vs Rosalina argument, and I do not really see the validity. Greninja and especially Falcon struggle because they are just not amazing characters. It is about time people accepted this.

 

[Rizen]

Q for @DunnoBro and Duck Hunt players, where do you think he stands? I've seen people say he's bad and now that he's underrated. IDK much about the character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You know, I constantly see Greninja mains whining about their Sheik match up and using this excuse to justify their performance and tier placement. Meta Knight has a bad Sheik match up. Ito has talked about dropping the character, and Tyrant is using Sheik vs Sheik. Yet he is still placing quite well.

This sounds a lot like the Ness vs Rosalina argument, and I do not really see the validity. Greninja and especially Falcon struggle because they are just not amazing characters. It is about time people accepted this.

Kind of true that they aren't that great, but also MK doesn't lose 35-65 to Sheik. If he did he wouldn't place well without a secondary. A 40-60 MU against one really important character is rough but not necessarily crippling unless you're against Zero or something. I highlighted that MU simply because of how obvious a red flag it is. Pit certainly doesn't lose that hard to Sheik or anyone else.

 

[Ulevo]

Kind of true that they aren't that great, but also MK doesn't lose 35-65 to Sheik. If he did he wouldn't place well without a secondary. A 40-60 MU against one really important character is rough but not necessarily crippling unless you're against Zero or something. I highlighted that MU simply because of how obvious a red flag it is. Pit certainly doesn't lose that hard to Sheik or anyone else.

Some Meta Knight mains have suggested this match up is 3:7 when played properly by both players. I am on the fence on that opinion, but I do believe it is 4:6 at best. I have been suggesting this for a while now, and Voids recent dominance over Ito and Tyrant has demonstrated why.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think that all of the rows should have been moved up one. A should be in top tier. C should be in high tier. F should be in mid tier. And H should be in low tier.

Also, like a lot of other people are saying, it should be A+, A, A-, B+, etc. instead of a separate letter for each row.

I feel like these changes would more accurately represent how balanced the game is without actually changing the order of the characters.

EDIT: I see that you addressed this in the FAQ. However, my opinion remains the same.

EDIT2: I also see that posts such as mine which are giving our opinion on the format of the tier list aren't covered by the rules in the third post, which I did not see at first, so hopefully this isn't breaking any rules. You should probably put a direct link to @Thinkaman's post at the very top of Shaya 's OP post to make the rules of the thread more visible.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Some Meta Knight mains have suggested this match up is 3:7 when played properly by both players. I am on the fence on that opinion, but I do believe it is 4:6 at best. I have been suggesting this for a while now, and Voids recent dominance over Ito and Tyrant has demonstrated why.

Then why aren't MK mains just going belly-up as soon as they face good Sheik players? Do Sheiks not have enough MU experience? Why would we be discussing MK as top 5 if Sheik wins that badly(unless optimized Sheik really is that dominant, in which case she would endanger the competitive future of the meta)? I don't really know MK's high level MU spread.

 

[Amadeus9]

Then why aren't MK mains just going belly-up as soon as they face good Sheik players? Do Sheiks not have enough MU experience? Why would we be discussing MK as top 5 if Sheik wins that badly(unless optimized Sheik really is that dominant, in which case she would endanger the competitive future of the meta)? I don't really know MK's high level MU spread.

because mk can end a game by 1 mistake. sheiks keep making mistakes against mks. weird, i know.

 

[HeavyLobster]

because mk can end a game by 1 mistake. sheiks keep making mistakes against mks. weird, i know.

Then the MU spread probably isn't 3-7 if Sheik's margin for error is that low. It's not all that surprising for a top player in the world like Void to shut down characters he beats 6-4.

 

[Jams.]

Some Meta Knight mains have suggested this match up is 3:7 when played properly by both players. I am on the fence on that opinion, but I do believe it is 4:6 at best. I have been suggesting this for a while now, and Voids recent dominance over Ito and Tyrant has demonstrated why.

There's no way a character like MK has a matchup as bad as 3:7 in this game. Maybe in theory-craft land where beats . A character that could 7-3 MK would be disgustingly broken.

 

[Wintermelon43]

The fact that the bottom three in this game has the same characters, and Samus is even lower, than Brawl, makes me think these four characters need to have their mains explore more of them and become really good with them and go to major tournaments to make them better

 

[HeavyLobster]

The fact that the bottom three in this game has the same characters, and Samus is even lower, than Brawl, makes me think these four characters need to have their mains explore more of them and become really good with them and go to major tournaments to make them better

For some reason Sakurai mostly did a straight port of Ganon from Brawl to Smash 4. I think he probably is a bit better than bottom 3, but the top Ganons haven't shown up to nationals for a variety of reasons, and so he's put below characters he's either equal to or arguably slightly better than. Nevertheless, Sakurai is also partially responsible for not really doing much to address his core issues between games, and so he is in fact stuck in low tier. Puff's tools were buffed from Brawl but this engine is just massively worse for her. Zelda's design in singles is just busted.

 

[Amadeus9]

There's no way a character like MK has a matchup as bad as 3:7 in this game. Maybe in theory-craft land where beats . A character that could 7-3 MK would be disgustingly broken.

well, it just so happens...

 

[Radical Larry]

It's actually funny...

This isn't even the only tier list we need to have. We need to factor that this isn't custom's on and it's not on the 3DS platform. What controllers are they using is also another thing to look at because some people will play better with different controllers (you'll sure as hell never see me without a Wii U Game Pad), not exclusively the GCN controller that some people call "the standard".

With these factors set in, we actually need 3 indicative tier lists for true results. The 3DS meta is a completely different whale no matter where you look at it from and customs is a whole new meta.

The tier list we have is also very subjective to people, since we have only a BR with so little people (there could be characters who aren't even represented in a single spec in the BR) deciding for us who are the best and worst, whereas we also have threads and forums that would actually give a clear indicator of it otherwise. If we gathered 3 representatives for each character, we'd have equilibrium because ALL characters would have equal representatives and people who'd argue for or against them.

But why bother?

The fact that the bottom three in this game has the same characters, and Samus is even lower, than Brawl, makes me think these four characters need to have their mains explore more of them and become really good with them and go to major tournaments to make them better

Well, Ganondorf being bottom 3 shows that the meta is still very young as a whole. Ganondorf is not meant to be so low for a character with innumerable buffs; but tournament representation has its toll on him thanks to stigmatization of his character from Brawl and the fact that people think that since he's slow and doesn't have much tournament rep, he's automatically not viable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A character that could 7-3 MK would be disgustingly broken.

And you know Ulevo complains about how broken Sheik is in just about every other post, right?

 

[Amadeus9]

Yo real talk why do people think Sheik is a balanced fighter

 

[TheHypnotoad]

For some reason Sakurai mostly did a straight port of Ganon from Brawl to Smash 4. I think he probably is a bit better than bottom 3, but the top Ganons haven't shown up to nationals for a variety of reasons, and so he's put below characters he's either equal to or arguably slightly better than. Nevertheless, Sakurai is also partially responsible for not really doing much to address his core issues between games, and so he is in fact stuck in low tier.

Ganondorf's neutral is probably one of the worst in the game. He has a whopping 0 approach options. Ganondorf is one of the few matchups in which Robin can just spam Arcfire, because what is Ganondorf supposed to do? He can't run underneath it, considering he is the third slowest character and has one of the largest hurtboxes in the game. Should he jump over it, with the third worst jump height and third slowest air speed? (Ganondorf is third worst in a lot of things, lol.) And it's not just Robin; pretty much every character has the tools to prevent Ganondorf from approaching. Hell, at least Jigglypuff and Zelda can space aerials on shield. Ganondorf can't even do that, considering all of his aerials have a gross amount of landing lag and most of them take forever and a half to autocancel. And even for the ones that do autocancel, his terrible air speed means that most characters won't have a problem punishing him.

tl;dr Ganondorf has no approach options and is well deserving of his bottom 3 position, if not lower.

It's actually funny...

This isn't even the only tier list we need to have. We need to factor that this isn't custom's on and it's not on the 3DS platform. What controllers are they using is also another thing to look at because some people will play better with different controllers (you'll sure as hell never see me without a Wii U Game Pad), not exclusively the GCN controller that some people call "the standard".

With these factors set in, we actually need 3 indicative tier lists for true results. The 3DS meta is a completely different whale no matter where you look at it from and customs is a whole new meta.

The BR decided not to make a tier list for either of those two metas. If you want a tier list for the customs and 3DS metas, then make one yourself.

 

[LancerStaff]

Paseriman, Nairo and especially Earth have proven what this character is capable of even on the highest level. Pit's results are far superior to those of Ike.

Well then... Never thought I'd say I'm underrating Pit, lmao.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganondorf's neutral is probably one of the worst in the game. He has a whopping 0 approach options. Ganondorf is one of the few matchups in which Robin can just spam Arcfire, because what is Ganondorf supposed to do? He can't run underneath it, considering he is the third slowest character and has one of the largest hurtboxes in the game. Should he jump over it, with that terrible jump height and third slowest air speed? And it's not just Robin; pretty much every character has the tools to prevent Ganondorf from approaching. Hell, at least Jigglypuff and Zelda can space aerials on shield. Ganondorf can't even do that, considering all of his aerials have a gross amount of landing lag and most of them take forever and a half to autocancel. And even for the ones that do autocancel, his terrible air speed means that most characters won't have a problem punishing him.

tl;dr Ganondorf has no approach options and is well deserving of his bottom 3 position, if not lower.

Pretty sure I've seen GanontheBeast just FHFFFair right over Arcfire. Fair and Bair are safe on shield approach options that need to be respected, though Ganon's mobility is a liability for sure. Zelda and D3 have decidedly worse approach options.

 

[Nah]

You don't spam Arcfire really. Not with that frame data, not even against characters with terribad mobility like Ganon.

Also is there really a significant difference between the WiiU and 3DS metas (I wasn't even aware that the 3DS meta still lives)?

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf's neutral is probably one of the worst in the game. He has a whopping 0 approach options. Ganondorf is one of the few matchups in which Robin can just spam Arcfire, because what is Ganondorf supposed to do? He can't run underneath it, considering he is the third slowest character and has one of the largest hurtboxes in the game. Should he jump over it, with that terrible jump height and third slowest air speed? And it's not just Robin; pretty much every character has the tools to prevent Ganondorf from approaching. Hell, at least Jigglypuff and Zelda can space aerials on shield. Ganondorf can't even do that, considering all of his aerials have a gross amount of landing lag and most of them take forever and a half to autocancel. And even for the ones that do autocancel, his terrible air speed means that most characters won't have a problem punishing him.

tl;dr Ganondorf has no approach options and is well deserving of his bottom 3 position, if not lower.

There's so much wrong with your own post. First off, Ganondorf doesn't need to approach against Robin's Arcfire, and if he has to, a perfectly timed Dash Attack gives Ganondorf just the low enough body to go under one. Often I will block Robin's Arcfire, but will tend to roll backwards just to avoid Robin's follow-ups, and if Robin throws another, I repeat.

Ganondorf can also jump over Arcfire, yeah, he can't truly approach like you say he can't, but he has his F-Air and D-Spec going for him against Arcfire after doing a second jump. The former is guaranteed to hit Robin if Arcfire whiffs.

And Ganondorf's aerials having a gross amount of landing lag may be somewhat of a reasonable argument, but his landing lag is actually better than someone like D3. Oh, and by the way, his Back Aerial and Up Aerial seem to have pretty decent spacing before they're auto-canceled, especially the former, which is a safe shield poke.

And besides, you're talking from the perspective of one character, a projectile character whom Ganondorf can just shield against to make the tomes run out. :D If you talked from the perspective of a character like DK and Bowser, Ganondorf actually has approach options against them. And you're also talking about one aspect of a character.

Pretty sure I've seen GanontheBeast just FHFFFair right over Arcfire. Fair and Bair are safe on shield approach options that need to be respected, though Ganon's mobility is a liability for sure. Zelda and D3 have decidedly worse approach options.

Ganondorf can FHDJ F-Air over Arcfire, I've done it before myself. His B-Air is a great shield approach option thanks to it auto canceling out of short hop, which is great to have.

You don't spam Arcfire really. Not with that frame data, not even against characters with terribad mobility like Ganon.

Also is there really a significant difference between the WiiU and 3DS metas (I wasn't even aware that the 3DS meta still lives)?

The 3DS meta is often "conjoined" with the Wii U meta despite having different stages that would be tournament legal and a completely different control setup and no margin for error. There are a lot of things you can do on the Wii U version of the game that you can't do on the 3DS version of the game, and some characters tend to be more viable or less viable in the 3DS game for these reasons.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin was just an example of a character that Ganondorf has trouble approaching. Pretty much any character with a projectile or a disjointed hitbox will have no trouble keeping Ganondorf away.

 

[Radical Larry]

Robin was just an example of a character that Ganondorf has trouble approaching. Pretty much any character with a projectile or a disjointed hitbox will have no trouble keeping Ganondorf away.

True, but Robin's a textbook character who is known to have projectiles that can be rolled out of. Literally, even Bowser can roll away from Robin's multi-hit projectiles, bar Thoron.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also is there really a significant difference between the WiiU and 3DS metas (I wasn't even aware that the 3DS meta still lives)?

Blastzones on BF/FD and the stage list is completely different, on top of mostly minor control differences (Robin's Dthrow > Uair being frame perfect namely) and possibly some other character differences that've slipped through the cracks. Oh, and being able to follow warpers with the bracket thingy activated by the touch screen.

IMO, not enough for a totally separate tier list. Maybe a few asterisks for if certain character's kill combos don't work on most 3DS stages...

 

[DavemanCozy]

Who still cares about the 3DS meta?

Game did it's job as an overpriced demo

 

[HeavyLobster]

Robin was just an example of a character that Ganondorf has trouble approaching. Pretty much any character with a projectile or a disjointed hitbox will have no trouble keeping Ganondorf away.

He can approach more than a few. Some of the stronger zoners like MM are real problems but you can actually PS through a good amount of stuff. Ganondorf mostly either fears select fast projectiles like Needles and Shurikens or characters with strong rushdown and shield pressure. LOL CAMP 2 AUTOWIN is nowhere near as prevalent as it was in Brawl.

 

[Blobface]

Yeah Ganon's not great, but I'd definitely put him as equal to Marth and the like.

A lot of the less informed opinions on Ganondorf center around "bad shield safety", "bad recovery", and "poor approach options", which to me all seem to be carryovers from brawl. It makes me curious how Ganon would've been perceived if this was his first smash game.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

True, but Robin's a textbook character who is known to have projectiles that can be rolled out of. Literally, even Bowser can roll away from Robin's multi-hit projectiles, bar Thoron.

Robin also has a sword which outranges all of Ganondorf's aerials. And sure, you can roll out of Robin's Arcthunder, but that honestly just proves my point that Ganondorf can't approach. If he approaches from the ground, he has to shield and retreat against Robin's projectiles. If he approaches from the air, he gets stuffed by Robin's long-ranged aerials.

Anyway, this talk about Robin is distracting from the real point I was trying to make, which is that Ganondorf sucks and has no good approach options.

 

[Yikarur]

Tier Lists for other metas are not part of this thread and should not be discussed.

 

[LancerStaff]

Who still cares about the 3DS meta?

Game did it's job as an overpriced demo

If you're broke and can't play in tournaments anyway a 3DS is cheaper, and a lot more people play it.

 

[Ulevo]

Then why aren't MK mains just going belly-up as soon as they face good Sheik players? Do Sheiks not have enough MU experience? Why would we be discussing MK as top 5 if Sheik wins that badly(unless optimized Sheik really is that dominant, in which case she would endanger the competitive future of the meta)? I don't really know MK's high level MU spread.

No one but Void is expressing the characters potential, thus the ability to abuse the match up is rarely fully expressed. Even Zero, as talented as he is, does not flush out Sheik the way he does Diddy Kong, he just uses what works. For the record, I feel that as soon as players of Zero's caliber start emerging that have also taken the time to optimize Sheik, she will threaten the meta barring any balance changes. Early statistics are already suggesting this is possible with the game being barely a year old.

As for his match up spread, I feel his only negative match ups are Fox, Sheik and Diddy.

There's no way a character like MK has a matchup as bad as 3:7 in this game. Maybe in theory-craft land where beats . A character that could 7-3 MK would be disgustingly broken.

Your thought process requires reobservation. Excluding this as a possibility is a mistake even if it is not likely.

 

[Megamang]

In my experience, the 3ds meta is taking longer to set up their controls than it takes me to 2 stock them. Oh, and one time really aggressive PMs from an angsty pika main that called me 'pocket lint'.


Edit: in all seriousness, if you dont attend tournaments you arent considered on a tournament tier list...

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

It's actually funny...

This isn't even the only tier list we need to have. We need to factor that this isn't custom's on and it's not on the 3DS platform. What controllers are they using is also another thing to look at because some people will play better with different controllers (you'll sure as hell never see me without a Wii U Game Pad), not exclusively the GCN controller that some people call "the standard".

With these factors set in, we actually need 3 indicative tier lists for true results. The 3DS meta is a completely different whale no matter where you look at it from and customs is a whole new meta.

The tier list we have is also very subjective to people, since we have only a BR with so little people (there could be characters who aren't even represented in a single spec in the BR) deciding for us who are the best and worst, whereas we also have threads and forums that would actually give a clear indicator of it otherwise. If we gathered 3 representatives for each character, we'd have equilibrium because ALL characters would have equal representatives and people who'd argue for or against them.

But why bother?



Well, Ganondorf being bottom 3 shows that the meta is still very young as a whole. Ganondorf is not meant to be so low for a character with innumerable buffs; but tournament representation has its toll on him thanks to stigmatization of his character from Brawl and the fact that people think that since he's slow and doesn't have much tournament rep, he's automatically not viable.

What? This makes literally no sense at all. A tier list is a CHARACTERS VIABILITY, not a players viability with the character. We don't need a "GameCube + wii remote" tier list because it doesn't matter.

We also don't need a 3ds tier list, because there is literally no meta for the 3ds. This tier list is the Sm4sh Wii U tier list, and it won't be the "Wii U/3DS tier list with wiimote and nunchucks" because that's honestly stupid.

Also, Ganon being bottom 3 does not show how recent this tier list is. Ganon bottom 3 shows that his lack of good results outside of regionals mixed with theorycraft that is generally not in his favour go a long way. Maybe if something gets discovered and at least THEORY can go his way, maybe he'll rise.

 

[Blobface]

Robin also has a sword which outranges all of Ganondorf's aerials. And sure, you can roll out of Robin's Arcthunder, but that honestly just proves my point that Ganondorf can't approach. If he approaches from the ground, he has to shield and retreat against Robin's projectiles. If he approaches from the air, he gets stuffed by Robin's long-ranged aerials.

Anyway, this talk about Robin is distracting from the real point I was trying to make, which is that Ganondorf sucks and has no good approach options.

Ganondorf and Robin's F-air's and B-air's have about the same effective range. Ganondorf's have more actual range but his hurtbox is bigger.

Ganondorf has Dash Attack, Wizkick, Flame Choke, D-tilt spacing, all his aerials, and aerial mixups all as approach options. Each of these cover key options (Dash Attack beats anything but defensive options, Flame Choke beats shield, etc.) in a way that demands respect. How is that a lack of good approach options?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No one but Void is expressing the characters potential, thus the ability to abuse the match up is rarely fully expressed.

I think Edge does an amazing job at showing what Sheik is capable of as well. He's different to players like Zero, Mr r or Rain who largely [read: almost entirely] rely on their player-skill while using the best character. Edge is in the same boat as Void though in that he really pushes the charcter's strengths. I've been told that dabuz thinks Edge may be the second best Sheik player. I think it's a toss-up between him and Void.

I'm also not sure about Fox beating MK. Looks pretty even to me.

 

[DavemanCozy]

As for [Meta Knight's] match up spread, I feel his only negative match ups are Fox, Sheik and Diddy.

I thought the MK board said that he beats Fox 55:45? If I remember correctly the discussion leaned slightly towards MK's favor due to better range, MKs landing options letting him get away from Fox and not to mention he heavily gimps him too.

 

[Ulevo]

I thought the MK board said that he beats Fox 55:45? If I remember correctly the discussion leaned slightly towards MK's favor due to better range, MKs landing options letting him get away from Fox and not to mention he heavily gimps him too.

I think it is up in the air, but Fox's on stage game competes with Meta Knights very well. Despite being at a range disadvantage, Fox's data is so much better while also having better mobility and substantial K.O. power. Fox needs to commit to a lot of his kill confirms though, and gets wrecked off stage. Results wise however, Meta Knights have struggled against top Fox players. It is one of those match ups where the theory and practice are not entirely congruent. More sets need to be played at high level, and it is close to even, but it being in Fox's favor would not surprise me.

 

[HoSmash4]

I think an accurate indication of the MK Sheik matchup could be Leo vs Void. Void is the best at the MK Matchup easily when he has the most optimised combos, most needle based (I'm gonna stay at the ledge and needle camp you until i'm in dash attack range) playstyle. A fair reflection would be a sheik like void and a mk like Leo who plays MK the best. Using Void vs tyrant/ito to conclude the matchup is like using zero vs mvd as evidence for sheik vs diddy being really bad for diddy. It's not fair when they're on different levels.

 

[Cyclone_]

It's actually funny...

This isn't even the only tier list we need to have. We need to factor that this isn't custom's on and it's not on the 3DS platform. What controllers are they using is also another thing to look at because some people will play better with different controllers (you'll sure as hell never see me without a Wii U Game Pad), not exclusively the GCN controller that some people call "the standard".

With these factors set in, we actually need 3 indicative tier lists for true results. The 3DS meta is a completely different whale no matter where you look at it from and customs is a whole new meta.

The tier list we have is also very subjective to people, since we have only a BR with so little people (there could be characters who aren't even represented in a single spec in the BR) deciding for us who are the best and worst, whereas we also have threads and forums that would actually give a clear indicator of it otherwise. If we gathered 3 representatives for each character, we'd have equilibrium because ALL characters would have equal representatives and people who'd argue for or against them.

But why bother?



Well, Ganondorf being bottom 3 shows that the meta is still very young as a whole. Ganondorf is not meant to be so low for a character with innumerable buffs; but tournament representation has its toll on him thanks to stigmatization of his character from Brawl and the fact that people think that since he's slow and doesn't have much tournament rep, he's automatically not viable.

So what you are saying is that we should make at least 3 more tier lists for people that like different controllers even though when playing the damn game the controller you use is 100% personal preference and the people that tested this played with their preferred controller. Then another one for customs which is generally, unanimously, said to be a part of the game that will no longer have anything to do with competitive because of how absurdly broken some characters become. Finally Ganon is not a character that deserves to be past 3rd last. He's slow in air on ground and in this game that is a stupidly large downfall. He has some of the worst frame data i the game. If in a tournament I literally have no respect for this character because of how easy it is to read the characters only options. His only benefit is if you get hit like 5 times you're dead but compared to all of his aforementioned downfalls he has almost no matchup that benefits him in the game if any. So in conclusion ganon is bad stop with your heresy ;D.