Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

I never feel comfortable making, or commenting on tier lists because that requires a vast knowledge of absolutely everything about absolutely every character which I cannot in all honesty say that I have.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also, Ganon being bottom 3 does not show how recent this tier list is. Ganon bottom 3 shows that his lack of good results outside of regionals mixed with theorycraft that is generally not in his favour go a long way. Maybe if something gets discovered and at least THEORY can go his way, maybe he'll rise.

Ganon's lack of good results outside of regionals are because the Ganon players generally viewed as the strongest simply don't travel out of state. We don't have any results to find out what would happen were Ray Kalm, Vermanubis, or GtB to show up at a national. There's plausible enough theory to suggest that someone like Dedede is worse, but he doesn't get put below Dorf because Big D actually goes to nationals and exploits the fact that no one knows how to fight D3.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

One of Fox's strongest selling points against MK is his explosive advantaged state. Even a character who is as good at wiggling his way out of sticky situations as MK is really can't do too much about some aggressive uair assaults from below at times. Fox will stack on tons of damage in little time. That's not necessarily something MK is used to deal with most of the time. I guess you could say that Fox powerful advantaged state somewhat 'nullifies' MKs strong disadvantaged state.

MKs ability to remove stock quickly also somewhat overlaps with Fox's inherently poor disadvantaged state so that's not as much of a plus as against other character. It's something that Fox always has to deal with. I think it'd be a fair estimate to call it even.

I thought the MK board said that he beats Fox 55:45?

When did character boards become a reliable place to get information from when it comes to matchups?

I never feel comfortable making, or commenting on tier lists because that requires a vast knowledge of absolutely everything about absolutely every character which I cannot in all honesty say that I have.

Congratulations, you are smarter than 99% of the users of these boards.

 

[Bisdak]

This tier list will change, with Bayonetta and Corrin joining tomorrow.
Also, Ganon is very unexperimented on, he will get higher on the list. His Down throw to wizard kick needs to be used more(Perfect combo), because it can be used for every character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXgzmvtciBA

 

[S_B]

Who still cares about the 3DS meta?

Game did it's job as an overpriced demo

And you had to register it on Club-f**king-Nintendo to even get M2 like the "50 fact" video promised (a decision which cost Nintendo thousands of dollars in customer service calls to the point that it might've been cheaper to just let people unlock M2 by connecting a 3DS version of the game to a WiiU...).

But on topic: I foresee MK one day climbing into god tier for a few reasons.

1. MK can get a kill off of one confirm, one, and the means of landing that confirm aren't even fully optimized yet.

MK players are only ever going to get better at making that confirm happen, and we're eventually going to reach a point where playing against a good MK is going to be even scarier than playing against a good ZSS. You're going to need to fight the entire match on MK's terms because you know that that DA is coming so you're going to need to play around it the entire time, which will only serve to open you up to the second concern...

2. MK's gimping game is still incredibly underdeveloped.

Assessing MK's tools, I can only come to the conclusion that this is a character who was intended to be one of the strongest gimpers in the game (if not THE strongest).

He has:
-five jumps
-disjointed aerials with very low endlag
-an up+B that's very difficult to punish and can easily stage spike opponents
-a side and down B that are both also recovery moves to be used under different circumstances (just in case his opponent makes it back to the ledge and he needs to mix it up or he has traveled too far from the ledge while gimping)

In MK, I see a character who was designed to have a so-so neutral (which is only truly bad when he's confronted with some of the top tiers as he has some excellent neutral options against more balanced characters) in exchange for a phenomenal gimping game. Yet, I rarely see MKs chasing people offstage, preferring instead to fish for the DA confirm into the ladder combo.

The other issue that's holding back MK's gimping game is simply that the top tier are generally VERY difficult (and even dangerous) to gimp. It's no wonder MK needs his ladder confirm on them because he can't use what's supposed to be his bread and butter.

I think if the top tier get toned down, MK won't need the ladder combo any longer and will start growing into his true niche: a ferocious edgeguard/gimper.

 

[C0rvus]

So when Nairo played the new patch he said ZSS, Ryu, and Zelda felt the same. That doesn't mean too much, but if Zelda is untouched, I'm worried about this patch. I may be asking for too much, but if they ignored the standout bad characters again, I've more or less officially lost hope.

Edit: This is why I never like to post on mobile.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So when Nairo played the new patch he said ZSS, Tyu, and Zelda felt the same. That doesn't mean too much, but if Zelda is untouched, I'm worried about this patch. I may be asking for too much, but if they ignored the standout bas characters again, I've more or less officially lost hope.

What is Tyu?

Edit:Wait a minute was a typo for Ryu?

 

[Vyrnx]

This tier list is pretty disappointing. Aside from the more widely obvious errors, like Pika and Ryu too high, the biggest flaw in the whole tier list is Samus' placement. I'm just going to quote @IsmaR from the old CCI here since it is easier:

"Johnny Westside got top 8 at 2GGT: ESAM Saga, going as far as taking a game off of ZeRo

Hakii (the Lucas main at PAX currently) also used Samus at Shockwave 62 (where he got 2nd in a bracket of over 100+ people)

There's also AfroSmash/Gardner getting anywhere from 1st to top 16 in England and KayJay getting top 8 in Austria, as far as Europe is concerned.

SUGOI | Z (frequently placing top 3 in Vegas), Depth and Tumultus (both top 8~16 in Orlando, Florida), Sk8ter Jay (top 16~32 in Midwest), ChoZox (famous for getting 8th at Paragon, top 3~16 anywhere else they go) and of course, Xyro himself, for the U.S.

Those are just a few I can think of, off the top of my head.

Then there's ESAM busting her out once in a blue moon."

This quote was Ismar listing examples besides Xyro results, which by themselves are strong.

This, to me, and hopefully to everyone else, is clearly enough evidence from pure results that she would instantly surpass the other "bottoms" and many of the "lows" (according to this tier list). I will go so far as to say that being aware of these results and placing Samus bottom 6 is outright stupid. It may also be conveniently ignoring her results in order to place a different character higher. Otherwise, not being aware of these results and aiming to place the character on the official tier list would be absurd. The argument can't even be made that all of Samus' results belong to one player. Her results are spread across many players, and if Samus is indeed as awful as "the" tier list says, these players must be damn good.

I could explain why, make a lengthy post about how/what about Samus allows her players to do well with her, etc. But at this point, I have done that many times, and that plus the testimonies of many other users, plus the intense labbing and decent level of results the character has received, there is nothing more that can be done for the character if she is still placed bottom tier. In my mind, practically everything a character has to do to escape the perception of bottom tier has been done with Samus, and it is shear ignorance or bias that causes her to remain there. In the past, explanations have led to people replying, "CS sucks," "Every character has combos," etc. What stupid things to say.

The character is still advancing, unlike other stagnant metas in the low tiers. This was found last week (credit Darklink401 ):
http://smashboards.com/threads/using-upthrow-instead-of-dthrow-for-combos.429508/
Works on Sheik, ZSS, Fox to name a few. And this is only one advancement, as in the last month we have also incorporated/discovered rar sh tether trump.

I wish the ignorance surrounding this character would be tuned down. It's almost shameful, and ridiculous that a backroom made such a mistake, especially considering that it will hurt the character's perception even more. It's only one mistake in the tier list, but it is the biggest mistake. I might even agree that 90% of the time it is okay to ignore a tier list's low/bottom tiers, but this is the official tier list, and many members obviously didn't try very hard on the low tiers.

In the meantime, San's vote/tier list is great.

 

[S_B]

So when Nairo played the new patch he said ZSS, Tyu, and Zelda felt the same. That doesn't mean too much, but if Zelda is untouched, I'm worried about this patch. I may be asking for too much, but if they ignored the standout bas characters again, I've more or less officially lost hope.

That's...worrisome.

If this patch just does another round of tiny buffs for lower tiers that are ultimately inconsequential while still doing nothing to tone down the top tier, then yeah, my hope will likewise by in the toilet next to yours...

I wish the ignorance surrounding this character would be tuned down. It's almost shameful, and ridiculous that a backroom made such a mistake, especially considering that it will hurt the character's perception even more. It's only one mistake in the tier list, but it is the biggest mistake. I might even agree that 90% of the time it is okay to ignore a tier list's low/bottom tiers, but this is the official tier list, and many members obviously didn't try very hard on the low tiers.

I think there are just too many characters in SSB4 for anyone to have a truly solid understanding of them at this point. It's strange to think this, but one year just isn't long enough for the meta of all characters to develop to where it needs to.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Well, since everyone has done it, it is time i offer you my thoughts on what's not so good ( imo ) about that list:

- Yoshi: Well, i think this one is self explanatory. I've always been more focused on results than theory. And as i'm much you all know, Yoshi's results in tournaments just don't fit the statut of Top 15. I'd be okay if he was only a little lower.
- Roy: Same reasoning as Yoshi. What puts him over the many characters he is above? I'd seriously like to know, with analyses in depth of his top tier matchups, so i may be able to get it.
- WFT: A lot of people have been pointing that out. She's kind of a reverse Yoshi, where she has solid results, but the thoughts on the character itself is that the character isn't that outstanding. Nobody's been telling you that she was outstanding, just a decent character, who probably deserves to go a few spots up.
- Bowser: A hard character to rank accurately. Many compare him to DK, but for now, he hasnt shined in big tournaments at all. I'd put him a tier below DK as he shares the flaws of the character such as struggle in many matchups, but as i mentionned, no big placements so far. I guess i'm actually fine with that placement anyway.
- Villager: Very nitpicky, but i'd say he fits in the A Tier. I think of majority of us think he's among the Top/High tiers rather than the borderline tier, which has Ness in it. I kind of see Villager in the same level as Fox really.
- Samus: Eeeeehh... she's not as bad as the rest of her tier, clearly. Johny Westside & Other Samuses are doing well enough, the character has flaws, but can function, and even as a niche matchup in Luigi.
- Doc: Main bias, but since i perfectly know his niche and what he has to offer in the metagame, it's only natural that i'd put him higher than he is in this tier list. My mindset for ranking Sm4sh Low tiers would be to evaluate the niche of the character as a counterpick, rather than its ability to place as a solo character. Most of them are about as " hopeless " w/out a secondary.
- The choice of ranking Miis: We can't rank them. Ranking accurately over 50 charas is already a big struggle for even the most knowledgeable of us, so ranking charas that have near non existant tournament representation? Let's not, alright.

The rest of the tier list? I can understand the choices behind them, such as Top 10 placement. I may not agree with some of them precisely, but it's good enough for me. Again, those are just my thoughts, and as i'd say in some situations, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Darklink401]

This tier list is pretty disappointing. Aside from the more widely obvious errors, like Pika and Ryu too high, the biggest flaw in the whole tier list is Samus' placement. I'm just going to quote @IsmaR from the old CCI here since it is easier:

"Johnny Westside got top 8 at 2GGT: ESAM Saga, going as far as taking a game off of ZeRo

Hakii (the Lucas main at PAX currently) also used Samus at Shockwave 62 (where he got 2nd in a bracket of over 100+ people)

There's also AfroSmash/Gardner getting anywhere from 1st to top 16 in England and KayJay getting top 8 in Austria, as far as Europe is concerned.

SUGOI | Z (frequently placing top 3 in Vegas), Depth and Tumultus (both top 8~16 in Orlando, Florida), Sk8ter Jay (top 16~32 in Midwest), ChoZox (famous for getting 8th at Paragon, top 3~16 anywhere else they go) and of course, Xyro himself, for the U.S.

Those are just a few I can think of, off the top of my head.

Then there's ESAM busting her out once in a blue moon."

This quote was Ismar listing examples besides Xyro results, which by themselves are strong.

This, to me, and hopefully to everyone else, is clearly enough evidence from pure results that she would instantly surpass the other "bottoms" and many of the "lows" (according to this tier list). I will go so far as to say that being aware of these results and placing Samus bottom 6 is outright stupid. It may also be conveniently ignoring her results in order to place a different character higher. Otherwise, not being aware of these results and aiming to place the character on the official tier list would be absurd. The argument can't even be made that all of Samus' results belong to one player. Her results are spread across many players, and if Samus is indeed as awful as "the" tier list says, these players must be damn good.

I could explain why, make a lengthy post about how/what about Samus allows her players to do well with her, etc. But at this point, I have done that many times, and that plus the testimonies of many other users, plus the intense labbing and decent level of results the character has received, there is nothing more that can be done for the character if she is still placed bottom tier. In my mind, practically everything a character has to do to escape the perception of bottom tier has been done with Samus, and it is shear ignorance or bias that causes her to remain there. In the past, explanations have led to people replying, "CS sucks," "Every character has combos," etc. What stupid things to say.

The character is still advancing, unlike other stagnant metas in the low tiers. This was found last week (credit Darklink401 ):
http://smashboards.com/threads/using-upthrow-instead-of-dthrow-for-combos.429508/
Works on Sheik, ZSS, Fox to name a few. And this is only one advancement, as in the last month we have also incorporated/discovered rar sh tether trump.

I wish the ignorance surrounding this character would be tuned down. It's almost shameful, and ridiculous that a backroom made such a mistake, especially considering that it will hurt the character's perception even more. It's only one mistake in the tier list, but it is the biggest mistake. I might even agree that 90% of the time it is okay to ignore a tier list's low/bottom tiers, but this is the official tier list, and many members obviously didn't try very hard on the low tiers.

In the meantime, San's vote/tier list is great.

Let's remind ourselves that tier lists are not based on results, for the most part, but rather on MU spreads. I'm not sure where Samus' MU spread is, but I'd figure that is the reason Samus is so low.

I mean, Trela has won tournaments with Mii Swordfighter and he's still put at the very bottom sooo. xD

That being said, MUs are still being explored, and as a first tier list, its pretty good generally speaking.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This tier list is pretty disappointing. Aside from the more widely obvious errors, like Pika and Ryu too high, the biggest flaw in the whole tier list is Samus' placement. I'm just going to quote @IsmaR from the old CCI here since it is easier:

"Johnny Westside got top 8 at 2GGT: ESAM Saga, going as far as taking a game off of ZeRo

Hakii (the Lucas main at PAX currently) also used Samus at Shockwave 62 (where he got 2nd in a bracket of over 100+ people)

There's also AfroSmash/Gardner getting anywhere from 1st to top 16 in England and KayJay getting top 8 in Austria, as far as Europe is concerned.

SUGOI | Z (frequently placing top 3 in Vegas), Depth and Tumultus (both top 8~16 in Orlando, Florida), Sk8ter Jay (top 16~32 in Midwest), ChoZox (famous for getting 8th at Paragon, top 3~16 anywhere else they go) and of course, Xyro himself, for the U.S.

Those are just a few I can think of, off the top of my head.

Then there's ESAM busting her out once in a blue moon."

This quote was Ismar listing examples besides Xyro results, which by themselves are strong.

This, to me, and hopefully to everyone else, is clearly enough evidence from pure results that she would instantly surpass the other "bottoms" and many of the "lows" (according to this tier list). I will go so far as to say that being aware of these results and placing Samus bottom 6 is outright stupid. It may also be conveniently ignoring her results in order to place a different character higher. Otherwise, not being aware of these results and aiming to place the character on the official tier list would be absurd. The argument can't even be made that all of Samus' results belong to one player. Her results are spread across many players, and if Samus is indeed as awful as "the" tier list says, these players must be damn good.

I could explain why, make a lengthy post about how/what about Samus allows her players to do well with her, etc. But at this point, I have done that many times, and that plus the testimonies of many other users, plus the intense labbing and decent level of results the character has received, there is nothing more that can be done for the character if she is still placed bottom tier. In my mind, practically everything a character has to do to escape the perception of bottom tier has been done with Samus, and it is shear ignorance or bias that causes her to remain there. In the past, explanations have led to people replying, "CS sucks," "Every character has combos," etc. What stupid things to say.

The character is still advancing, unlike other stagnant metas in the low tiers. This was found last week (credit Darklink401 ):
http://smashboards.com/threads/using-upthrow-instead-of-dthrow-for-combos.429508/
Works on Sheik, ZSS, Fox to name a few. And this is only one advancement, as in the last month we have also incorporated/discovered rar sh tether trump.

I wish the ignorance surrounding this character would be tuned down. It's almost shameful, and ridiculous that a backroom made such a mistake, especially considering that it will hurt the character's perception even more. It's only one mistake in the tier list, but it is the biggest mistake. I might even agree that 90% of the time it is okay to ignore a tier list's low/bottom tiers, but this is the official tier list, and many members obviously didn't try very hard on the low tiers.

In the meantime, San's vote/tier list is great.

Samus is low tier but not garbage. I'd estimate there's around 8-11 non-Mii characters worse than her, maybe more. She's got some decent tools. In general the BR is pretty shaky in terms of anything outside of the core tourney meta.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Why don't I see people trying to spike Villager out of his/her recovery? Seems like a villager floating upwards would be a sitting duck to edgeguards, given that they go into helplessness if they cancel the move.

 

[The Slayer]

This tier list will change, with Bayonetta and Corrin joining tomorrow.
Also, Ganon is very unexperimented on, he will get higher on the list. His Down throw to wizard kick needs to be used more(Perfect combo), because it can be used for every character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXgzmvtciBA

I don't think an amiibo fighter is an ideal dummy for calculations due to variables that are changed when "fed." Also, is there a video of a human player getting out of it? Even then, how can he approach top/high characters when most of them can easily disrupt/evade that setup? Did the patch even change his approach game to be better? They probably gave him that, but still not enough options to make it matter in the long run.

Also, we're still gonna need data on Bayonetta and Corrin when they come out and tournament results afterwards. So it may or may not change too much in the long run.

 

[Vyrnx]

Let's remind ourselves that tier lists are not based on results, for the most part, but rather on MU spreads. I'm not sure where Samus' MU spread is, but I'd figure that is the reason Samus is so low.

I mean, Trela has won tournaments with Mii Swordfighter and he's still put at the very bottom sooo. xD

That being said, MUs are still being explored, and as a first tier list, its pretty good generally speaking.

Samus would not have those results unless her MU spread were decent (which it is). MK, Pika, and some other MUs are bad enough that she is low tier no doubt. But bottom bottom tier? I insist that those results completely invalidate any argument that she belongs there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The whole low tier section of that tier list is extremely questionable in general. Stuff like Roy being a whole tier above Marth or Falco being a tier higher than Shulk and Duck Hunt makes me think that the 4BR might as well could've drawn character names out of a hat at random and come to a similarly plausible result.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that people shouldn't care that much about low/bottom tier. It's hard enough to come up with a satisfactory top/high tier or finding a consensus on where to drawl the line between high and high-mid tier.

 

[Darklink401]

Samus would not have those results unless her MU spread were decent (which it is). MK, Pika, and some other MUs are bad enough that she is low tier no doubt. But bottom bottom tier? I insist that those results completely invalidate any argument that she belongs there.

Again, while those results are impressive, tier lists were never about tourney results nor should they ever be.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You know, I constantly see Greninja mains whining about their Sheik match up and using this excuse to justify their performance and tier placement. Meta Knight has a bad Sheik match up. Ito has talked about dropping the character, and Tyrant is using Sheik vs Sheik. Yet he is still placing quite well.

This sounds a lot like the Ness vs Rosalina argument, and I do not really see the validity. Greninja and especially Falcon struggle because they are just not amazing characters. It is about time people accepted this.

You know whats funny? Greninja mains kinda find themselves in the same position that Marth mains found themselves in Brawl.

So why did Marth place consistently higher in Brawl tournies then Greninja does in Smash 4?

idk if I can buy the idea that Sheik alone is holding him back. It was more or less the same with Marth but his results backed it up. There were many who said he should be LOWER in the tiers, but he consistently performed well enough to never go below 8th I think. (I would need to double check.)

Why doesnt Greninja have these kinds of numbers other then Marth had an army of some of the most talented which is def a factor. Still Greninja should be able to pull out better results then he is showing if he is as good as his mains claim, no?

 

[HeavyLobster]

This tier list will change, with Bayonetta and Corrin joining tomorrow.
Also, Ganon is very unexperimented on, he will get higher on the list. His Down throw to wizard kick needs to be used more(Perfect combo), because it can be used for every character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXgzmvtciBA

Dthrow to Wizkick isn't very good. Dthrow-> DA is generally better. Also Ganondorf's actually been developed quite a bit by people like Gungnir. We at the Ganon boards know pretty well what Ganondorf can and can't do, and that while he's probably better than bottom 3, he's also probably still bottom 10 and that won't change barring patches.

 

[S_B]

Again, while those results are impressive, tier lists were never about tourney results nor should they ever be.

They HAVE to come into play somewhere, though. Otherwise, what are tier lists based upon aside from speculation?

 

[san.]

Thinking X character is good and thinking X character is above Y character are two very different things. It gets difficult once you actually start to place names down and characters over each other.

I'm mostly interested if there are going to be any global changes tomorrow. I'm hoping for some pleasant surprises, but I'm definitely not going to get my hopes up (LOL).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I def wouldnt get my hopes up for this patch. I expect some fixes to Cloud (his dsmash for example) and other minor quality of life tweaks and thats it.

 

[Illuminose]

Why is Pikachu being too high obvious? A lot of people rate Pikachu highly, including many top players and individuals within the community, and there's pretty good reasons behind it. Pikachu has one of the best matchup spreads in top tier. Think about it. Pikachu has positive matchups against the second and third best characters in the game. He has one of the best matchups against the best character in the game. Apart from this, Pikachu does really well against the rest of the top tiers too. He's goes even or holds a slight advantage against Sonic and beats Ryu, Cloud, and Diddy Kong. The top characters missing are MK, Mario, Fox, and Ness. He's known to have a disadvantage against Mario. The others? Fox is even. Ness is even or maybe very slightly in Ness's favor. MK is a similar case to Ness. Pikachu outright has one of the best top tier vs top tier matchup spreads in the entire game. And he has no troublesome non-top tier matchups outside Luigi, who is probably the only other character that really gives Pikachu any trouble.

There is no way Pikachu's matchup spread is worse than a character like Ryu, or Mario, or Fox, or Ness. Ryu is a standout character in terms of being too high on this list (as others have mentioned) -- honestly he probably loses to ~5 top 10ish characters (counting Pikachu/Villager/Sonic/Sheik/Diddy) and tends to struggle vs an effective keepaway game in general, which lends itself to pesky matchups against characters like Mega Man and Toon Link. He doesn't really beat many good characters either. One of the most overrated top chars imo. Mario loses to the top 3 (and Rosa is pretty rough at that) as well as Meta Knight and Luigi. Fox has really rough matchups against Sheik, Rosa, and Ryu that kind of hold him back at the top level. Ness is invalidated by Rosa and also has pretty solid losing matchups to Villager, Sheik, and MK. This leaves Sonic, MK, Cloud, Villager, and Diddy. I'm pretty hard-pressed to put Pikachu below Diddy when you look at how Diddy does against the top 3 compared to Pikachu (he loses all 3 matchups, Rosa is very rough though ZSS and Sheik win rather slightly). I think the group after the top 3 based on this is Sonic/MK/Cloud/Pika/Villager, maybe drop off Villager but in general I think tof what these characters are pretty much interchangeable in terms of where you place them.

No, tier lists are not entirely based on theory and matchups. There is a results component to tier lists, but I think it is being overblown how Pikachu's results work out comparatively. ESAM is an elite player, though somewhat inconsistent. But I think you can clearly tell that his character and matchups are not to blame if you watch how ESAM plays. The fact that people overanalyze his non-top 8 placings (seriously, is this supposed to be our marker of consistency? the group of players that gets top 8 every time is literally 3) really skews the persepctive of how much ESAM has accomplished at top level, taking sets off some of the best players in this game and achieving top 8 at multiple major events, which is a pretty huge accomplishment in a game where inconsistent results are abound. NAKAT's results with Pikachu, which is his most-used character, are also pretty solid. Overvaluing depth of representation and undervaluing the accomplishments of the rep Pikachu has is really the man obstacle to the solid theory/matchup data backing his high placing on the tier list.

@Amadeus9 ngl if you're gonna place Ness over Pika/Mario/Diddy/Fox you really don't have room to assertively condemn a tier list based on where Pikachu is placed.

 

[JesterJaded]

You know whats funny? Greninja mains kinda find themselves in the same position that Marth mains found themselves in Brawl.

So why did Marth place consistently higher in Brawl tournies then Greninja does in Smash 4?

idk if I can buy the idea that Sheik alone is holding him back. It was more or less the same with Marth but his results backed it up. There were many who said he should be LOWER in the tiers, but he consistently performed well enough to never go below 8th I think. (I would need to double check.)

Why doesnt Greninja have these kinds of numbers other then Marth had an army of some of the most talented which is def a factor. Still Greninja should be able to pull out better results then he is showing if he is as good as his mains claim, no?

The results of characters from Smash 4 can't be compared with that of Brawl because larger cast; not every character with the potential to win regionals are going to win regionals within the first year unless they're top of the ladder, nor will they win them consistently.

That said, a Greninja main did win Shockwave 62 once, but I can't vouch for other results as I don't follow the character much.

I'll put that on my list of things to waste time on.

 

[Shaya]

You know whats funny? Greninja mains kinda find themselves in the same position that Marth mains found themselves in Brawl.

So why did Marth place consistently higher in Brawl tournies then Greninja does in Smash 4?

idk if I can buy the idea that Sheik alone is holding him back. It was more or less the same with Marth but his results backed it up. There were many who said he should be LOWER in the tiers, but he consistently performed well enough to never go below 8th I think. (I would need to double check.)

Why doesnt Greninja have these kinds of numbers other then Marth had an army of some of the most talented which is def a factor. Still Greninja should be able to pull out better results then he is showing if he is as good as his mains claim, no?

Well, Marth's options came out of his every orifice in brawl.
Auto cancels here, low landing lag there, frame traps everywhere, gambit buttons everywhere.
Come get your videos critiqued because there's a 0% chance (even ramin, leon, neo under tutelage of pierce, cj and myself) you aren't terrible and are missing out on very clean win/win scenarios because YOU'RE MARTH MAN, MARTH.

Greninja is clunky, no doubt about it.
He has some fantastic traits but nothing about his kit is exceptional or even really notable.

People could've perhaps said the same thing about Marth in Brawl, but ***** please Dolphin Slash, Fair, Nair, Dancing Blade were monsters in their own way.
Can't think of anything that's a monster in greninja's kit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shaya unwittingly saying what I planned to say albeit much less brutally.

I should just do that from now on. Lead people to water and let them drink for me.

I would probably get alot less pushback.

But then....ugh...smashboards JUST wouldnt be the same. *ahem* Forgive my romanticism.

I do agree Shaya. Marth screamed "Press this and this in these situations and you win."

 

[Flux0r]

I'll be more in laughter then anger if the patch comes with a buff to Sheik.

Waking up the next morning and seeing stuff like this:

PATCH NOTES

B-Air knockback increased
Needle Storm ending lag decreased.

Oh boy, the pitchforks would sure rise.

 

[JesterJaded]

Greninja has exceptional mobility, at the very least. Top 10 across the board practically.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Greninja

 

[FullMoon]

You know whats funny? Greninja mains kinda find themselves in the same position that Marth mains found themselves in Brawl.

So why did Marth place consistently higher in Brawl tournies then Greninja does in Smash 4?

idk if I can buy the idea that Sheik alone is holding him back. It was more or less the same with Marth but his results backed it up. There were many who said he should be LOWER in the tiers, but he consistently performed well enough to never go below 8th I think. (I would need to double check.)

Why doesnt Greninja have these kinds of numbers other then Marth had an army of some of the most talented which is def a factor. Still Greninja should be able to pull out better results then he is showing if he is as good as his mains claim, no?

To be fair Greninja results are starting to get a little better since Venia consistently makes strong showing at Nebulous when he attends and Gibus has good results with Gren as well if I remember right. I guess we'll see if iStudying places well at BEAST VI too.

Greninja doesn't have anything abusive in his kit even though his kit is one that flows together very well, while I heard (never got involved into competitive Brawl myself) Marth was way more crazy in regards to his kit.

Is Sheik the only thing really holding Greninja back? She's certainly the main thing holding him back because having a really bad MU against the best character is not exactly a recipe for success, but it's not like nerfing her will fix everything for him. Greninja does have flaws (like any character should have) that while they're not a huge issue they can be exploited more easily than those of other better characters (easy to challenge aerials, slow frame data, bad OoS options), he does still have a lot of good things going for him though (top tier mobility, great projectile, very good damage racking combos, very good edgeguarding, good range) that still allow him to compete fairly well.

Would Sheik getting nerfed make Greninja shoot up tiers? Maybe, depends on if that happening would get people to actually play the character at top level and allow him to get more results, Greninja's meta has developed well but we still have few people really pushing the character. Hopefully aMSa coming back does something to boost the frog a little more.

But for the results he currently has, I'm perfectly okay with Greninja's placement in this first tier list. I honestly thought he would be lower than that.

 

[Shaya]

While mobility means the most in this game on average because it's a... relatively normalised roster...
It isn't significant enough if your move set is above average at best across the board.

When you have game changing (or at the least match up defining) character tools like Diddy's fair (not a single move in greninja's kit offers this much strength or close to imo), ZSS Boost kick, Meta Knight Shuttle Loop, LUMA, sheik needles, villager sling shot, etc etc

unwittingly

I thought you knew me.
Because I know you.

"Did shaya just insinuate Diddy's fair is better than Greninja's entire kit?"
Maybe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Forgive me, Shaya

I...I...*Tears begin to well up*

SHAYA NEE-SAN!!!!!

That Diddy fair tho...does the hitbox cover his whole hurtbox on his legs? Seems like it. Dumb move. I hate it because its Diddy, but I love it because its dumb. So very very dumb and beautiful.

 

[Megamang]

Greninja's fair and mobility is outstanding.


Being able to escape boost kick, and the hellavator is pretty outstanding too.

 

[JesterJaded]

Greninja's fair and mobility is outstanding.


Being able to escape boost kick, and the hellavator is pretty outstanding too.

Potential jank counterpick tier, perhaps?

 

[FullMoon]

"Did shaya just insinuate Diddy's fair is better than Greninja's entire kit?"
Maybe.

I can't even really disagree with this lol.

Greninja's fair and mobility is outstanding.


Being able to escape boost kick, and the hellavator is pretty outstanding too.

Greninja's F-Air would be amazing if it wasn't frame 16

 

[Megamang]

A little anticipation and its still great, one of the best fairs imo. I mean, if it was frame 6 he'd be way worse than shiek, frame 10 would still be ridiculous.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

When you have game changing (or at the least match up defining) character tools like Diddy's fair (not a single move in greninja's kit offers this much strength or close to imo), ZSS Boost kick, Meta Knight Shuttle Loop, LUMA, sheik needles, villager sling shot, etc etc

You forgot Cloud's whole character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Appledees]

Honestly I think water shuriken for Greninja is pretty strong for the character and a huge defining tool for Greninja's toolset. Its not as strong as some of the stuff the high tiers have but I don't think its anything to overlook at all.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly I think water shuriken for Greninja is pretty strong for the character and a huge defining tool for Greninja's toolset. Its not as strong as some of the stuff the high tiers have but I don't think its anything to overlook at all.

Yes, Water Shuriken is definitely the most important tool in Greninja's arsenal, any changes made to it be it a buff or nerf is really huge for the character. It's not bonkers but it's probably among the best projectiles.

 

[Yonder]

I'll be more in laughter then anger if the patch comes with a buff to Sheik.

Waking up the next morning and seeing stuff like this:

PATCH NOTES

B-Air knockback increased
Needle Storm ending lag decreased.

Oh boy, the pitchforks would sure rise.

Only if everyone else got buffed to be even better than Sheik

Although Nairo's claim is kind of bleak about no nerfs to Sheik and no buffs to Zelda. That does leave like, 50+ characters who could still make a boom though which is nice.

I think FG actually plays a nice hand in tiers too. Miis will be low for a long time since they can't be used online, and I think Falcon will hit D eventually due to sheer overplay. I cannot name a character whose matchup I know better with Luigi than Falcon. Boy has it made it easier during tourneys to fight him too.

 

[JesterJaded]

If Water Shuriken were storable, that'd be pretty neat. Would certainly give him a powerful threat in the neutral, and potential combo jank.