Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Same situation as DK and Bowser, slightly outdated. Falco is a counterpick character. He doesn't need a secondary for a few matchups, he IS that secondary

Short post from me; serious question: who is Falco a counterpick to? Anyone can answer and anyone in this game can be an answer which... if you answer "Falco" meaning he's a counterpick to himself, then you lose. Also, please explain why.

Mostly cause as Shaymin said, the meme of Yoshi being a frame data monster has died down thankfully.
Fastest moves he has in terms of aerial speed is nair and Uair and those're usually not followups unless they're inside your body basically but nair Hitbox isn't actually that big compared to say pac-man or villager from initial frames and Uair is only big in vertical terms not horizontal. Nair is just a quick get away move Yoshi's instinctively spam which is fine, abuse the frame 3 nair.

Stupid question from a person who knows nothing about Yoshi: shouldn't Yoshi abuse his air speed and Nair's fast startup to edgeguard people? If people are scared and freeze off-stage, Yoshi can just move in and kick them. The risk is huge, though, since Yoshi would be very far off-stage. That being said, some characters might not be able to afford to attack since they might end up in too much recovery and just fall to the stage. Using a recovery move from that far is also not something most characters can do. Best action would probably be air dodge or not be in the situation in the first place. Video clip of what I'm trying to describe: https://youtu.be/r7_Rrm0ra9E?t=443.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Stupid question from a person who knows nothing about Yoshi: shouldn't Yoshi abuse his air speed and Nair's fast startup to edgeguard people? If people are scared and freeze off-stage, Yoshi can just move in and kick them. The risk is huge, though, since Yoshi would be very far off-stage.

Nair is a good frametrap if you get people to airdodge from a fair spike/raw hit attempt.
Otherwise the risk factor of getting either punted away or footstooled is there like you said yes.

 

[L9999]

Not when you can get wobbled like this

But Ice Climbers have a terrible MU against Peach...

Now that Peach bashing is online, which are her bad MUs besides Meta Knight?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Characters like peach rosalina and Yoshi is why they will almost never win against MK unless they hug the edge of the stage.

 

[H4Xcaster The Hylian]

You could but I wish you wouldn't, it wouldn't be productive for us to have to stop and discuss the tier list of any of the thousands of random people that come into this thread. I suggest you just read the thread and lurk for a while so you can become more informed about the game first, since I can see you just started posting on the site it would be helpful for you to gather more knowledge and make a tier list when you're more informed. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but unless you're a well known player who's pretty good and we know you know what you're talking about, there is no reason for anyone in here to care about your tier list. Again that isn't to be rude, its just the truth. Nobody has any reason to care about mine either, that's for sure.

And you guys know how Dabuz said Olimar is a good character on certain stages? I think Little Mac is probably the same way, he isn't anywhere close to viable as a solo main, but on FD or something he for sure has to jump up several spots on the tier list compared to being anywhere else.

One more thing, are we finally at the point where it seems like Miis are not legal to change at majors and will never be able to? If it looks like they are really settled on 50/50 1111 at this point then maybe we can finally start to discuss them seriously. I always avoided the topic before because I felt it was pointless because depending on the rules of that particular tournament they either shoot up or down in viability, but it looks like they will never be legal really so I'm not going to wait on that any longer.

Ok,if You Want me to leave,You did it

 

[anas abou]

I mean, your not giving a good reasoning, and it is far from true, so lol

zelda is much more "functional" as a character than little mac, he's simply broken.
you might occasionally get results with him, but it's near impossible to stay consistent.

for example, you might beat ally with a lucky KO punch, but you can also get gimped by a random.

 

[wedl!!]

Now that Peach bashing is online, which are her bad MUs besides Meta Knight?

diddy (seriously this matchup is ****ing terrible), sheik, cloud, corrin, mewtwo, marth

generally any characters that crap on her in neutral and disrespect float/air game

People triggered cuz i put little mac in bottom 5 in 2016 LUL

this is why the FGC doesn't like you guys

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

zelda is much more "functional" as a character than little mac, he's simply broken.
you might occasionally get results with him, but it's near impossible to stay consistent.

you might beat ally with a lucky KO punch, but you can also get gimped by a random.

The thing is Mac doesn't get occasional results. He's quite consistent in the results he does get. His character isn't broken he was designed to be a incredible character on the ground who in order to balance out would be awful while airborne. He works as intended.

 

[PK Gaming]

ESAM vs Cosmos FT10

If you're interested in seeing the Corrin/Pika matchup played at high levels

 

[Ffamran]

Oh for ****'s sake... Everyone, please read this and remember it. I swear if this has to be made into a goddamn rule or repeated daily for everyone.

I've found that I save a lot of time not responding to posts that strike me as exceedingly peculiar. I've saved so much time, in fact, that I've coined a name for this newfound technique: stress canceling. Lest we find ourselves reprimanded for arguing over my naming skills, I propose we move on to more worthwhile discussion. *hint, hint*

Edit: Why are you all liking this post? I'm just quoting DanGR. Go like his.

 

[Yonder]

OK,think like this,every character,is a good character,exception for Jigglypuff,somebody has to be 1 and somebody the last one

That doesn't suffice as a description on each or certain character placements that are out lf the norm, like why would you put Mii Brawler that high? Or Sonic and Mewtwo that low? You have to explain these things in a bit more depth than a general statement about everyone.

 

[TDK]

Probably best to turn H4Xcaster the Hylian on ignore. Ignore people like this and they'll go away.

...unless they're Larry.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Probably best to turn H4Xcaster the Hylian on ignore. Ignore people like this and they'll go away.

...unless they're Larry.

Telling people to put others on ignore doesn't help anything.

I do strongly disagree with that list though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do I have have to hit you all over the head with a "do not feed the trolls" sign?

Seriously, it should have been obvious from like post... 2.

 

[-Tornado-]

Do I have have to hit you all over the head with a "do not feed the trolls" sign?

Seriously, it should have been obvious from like post... 2.

Ok, you have a point.
Probably best not to reply to posts reeking of "heat legend", but I digress.

 

[Das Koopa]

So, considering how well Samsora did (kept it highly competitive with Ally across 2 sets with 3 stocks in each, ended up winning) we can attest that he's both a very good Peach and a very good player. Is the Peach - MK MU 7-3 or 8-2? This was one of the greatest Peach accomplishments to date, but the road ended with what looked like an unwinnable matchup. Samsora up a stock still lost G1 of GF Set 2 because of how easy the string > loop is, and I've been told Peach has hard time/can't DI out of it.

 

[Aaron1997]

Since everyone is posting Tier list then I guess its my turn.


In my opinion is Diddy is the most consistent Character right now in a game where consistency is very important. This what makes him the best character.


I might put him to high because his results at majors have been subpar but Cloud is Cloud. Stupid Hitboxs, Kills very early, God like Neutral with the only downside being Recovery.


She's still a monster post-patch. Her Combo's are still Very good getting 50%+ with winning neutral, one of the best Recoverys and Witch Time.


I don't know why people call these characters bad because don't mean that there inferior Clones don't mean that there bad. If you have a losing match-up vs Marth,Mario, you probably lose to Lucina,Doc as well.


A lot of top players have put him as bottom 5 but because I main him so I'm a little biased lol. Tea and Ginko do amazing stuff in Japan when they go to stuff. His Reward when he gets Fruits to Z-drop is crazy and people even have been labbing Kameme like footstool combo's with and we know what happened when Megamans started to do that.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@Dark.Pch I am curious of how you think of Peach's MUs, is the MK MU really that bad?

 

[FeelMeUp]

i assumed all floaties had a 7:3 or worse vs MK
Peach/Rosa is one of the dumbest duo choices I have ever heard tbh

 

[my_T]

Peach actually has a decent match-up against mario. Anti, Ally, and Zenyou have all struggled with this match-up. Anti counter picks it. Ally has lost Slayerz and Samsora, Zenyou has also lost to Slayerz. Result wise i think Mario vs Peach is even in terms sets, Peach might be in the lead.

How do Peach mains feel about this match-up?

 

[Jalil]

Edit: ignore this

 

[FeelMeUp]

Peach badly loses to: MK, Sheik, Diddy, Cloud
Rosa loses to: Sheik, MK(badly), Cloud(up in the air)
and they both notably win similar matchups, like vs Mario
Why would one ever play both? Especially with how difficult they are to use.

 

[C0rvus]

That's kind of a silly question to ask. People play the characters they like, for the most part. If you like Peach as a character, you might also like Rosalina, and vice versa. As a pair, they share a couple rough matches. Samsora may of course want to look into a pocket character for Meta Knight and Corrin, if nothing else. Rosalina does have a much better Diddy, Sheik, Cloud matchup.

Also, I thought the general opinion was that Rosalina has a slight advantage over Sheik; if not, it's even. I'm no Sheik or Rosa player, though.

 

[BananaBake]

Could you explain Marth please? Aaron1997

 

[Ulevo]

Rosalina is fine against Meta Knight. It is in his favor, but a Rosalina that has studied the match up should have a viable chance at winning.

Peach is a bad character, and the match up is likely 7:3 or worse.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I thought Sheik Rosa was 45:55 for a long time after the patch. That gradually became even(with the issue that Sheik has to work harder in the MU than Rosa does) and is now changed to 55:45 Sheik favour. Sheik forces Rosa to approach and outneutrals her completely. She's one of the best at both playing around and safely killing Luma. She COMPLETELY blows up Rosa offstage. She can combo around Luma and kill it off one stray aerial/tilt or getting a successful grab(fthrow to ftilt on Luma to rising fair starts a fair string on it, and bthrow fsmash on Luma is good if the Rosa doesn't mash an aerial). Dtilt 2 frames confirm into death at 80-90 all the way up to 140+. Bouncing Fish means Rosa can never double rage roofie you, as there's no reason for Sheik to airdodge after any Uair.
Needles can hit below and sometimes above Luma. Fullhop needles to fish confirm around Luma. Sheik is one of the best st getting around Rosa's terrifying ledge pressure.
etc.
But the MU is closer to even because rage Rosa blows Sheik up ssssoooooo hard for making mistakes. One misspaced Fair on Luma could mean an U/Fsmash death at 60. Being too predictable with your recovery could cause a rage Luma dair death at 40 offstage. Overextending for a desperste combo while behind could mean a death or being ledge trapped by Rosa.
Rosa players can get away with not knowing the matchup very well, but if the Sheik isn't well versed she should be losing every game

tl;dr perfect fair spacing, good needle usage and smart ledge play means you win

Sorry for the weird formatting. On mobile at work.

 

[wm1026]

Thoughts on atm? This thread hasn't really discussed him in a while outside of my quandary over Sky and The Wall a few pages back. I think it's safe to say this character is not and will never be as good as he was made out to be in the beginning of this game's young meta. The "amazing frame data" meme has died down since people realized that this dude has more moves than just nair and jab. It's certainly not enough to make up for a horrendously laggy grab, bad roll and spot dodge data, a shield with unique properties that can be problematic (such as not being able to shield drop), and a very linear/predictable recovery. He has good smash attacks but his only setups into them are jab and I'm not sure if they're super reliable (?). His matchups against the top tiers are concerning. He loses to both Diddy and Cloud which is a pretty serious roadblock today.

For all of these reasons I think Yoshi will struggle in tournament and can never be above mid tier. However, he does have some stuff for sure. His mobility is pretty stellar, having the 14th fastest run in the game while touting the fastest aerial speed too. These two things used in conjunction with his b-reversible, wave-bounceable and perfect pivotable command grab mean he has some pretty cool movement options on the ground and in the air. Egg toss is a fantastic projectile that can force approaches, aid recovery, and even convert into an up air. His ground game is a solid outside of his pathetic ftilt and normal grab, with dtilt as a spacing option, a nice dash attack, uptilt as a combo starter/anti air, and jab for jab stuff.

Because Yoshi has some fundamentally flawed design choices while also having some really good and unfamiliar options sprinkled throughout his kit, I think he has a niche as a unique kind of counterpick character that we've seen before from Dabuz. Olimar is not a great character and Dabuz himself acknowledges this. However, Olimar is able to work for him because he's uncommon and has some frustrating tools to deal with. I could see Yoshi achieving this too, with people getting frustrated vs eggs, falling for his grab release shenanigans, over-respecting his recovery, and getting caught by egg lay movement mixups.

Yoshi has problems in killing and with shields. He has no reliable way to challenge shield. Down B can be rolled away from, and dair will shield poke before it will break it. So you will take 1 to 3% and be put in a semi bad position. Egg lay has to long a start up and his grab is just straight bad. It's laggy and you get nothing from his throws in the way of combos, kill set ups, nor are they damaging. As you said his rolls are slow. Also I believe I read somewhere on the yoshi boards that because of a unique property yoshis shield, his hurt box like moves into his shield. So in other words he has a much more difficult time perfect shielding. I believe his only way to do it reliably is to shield from the crouch position? Honestly I believe yoshi would be much better with a normal shield. I believe yoshi to be an upper mid tier character, maybe just maybe low high tier. His only redeeming qualities being his frame data, projectile, and speed.

 

[0mega_Nebula_1]

and Mr. R posts his current tier list, once again we see Marth as a top 15 character

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/760709372406296576

Spoiler

Other notable things are Bayo, Lucas, Lucina, Link (?), and Falcon (?)

I suppose Link can come from him frequently playing Izaw and him playing Link himself, theres also Lucina generally being very close to Marth on the tier list but I'm not sure about everyone else

Pac man may have an awful grab but putting him that low is just a crime.

 

[L9999]

Pac man may have an awful grab but putting him that low is just a crime.

Not saying Pac-man is trash or anything, but the trash grab is not his defining weakness, (or any character for that matter).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rosalina is fine against Meta Knight. It is in his favor, but a Rosalina that has studied the match up should have a viable chance at winning.

Peach is a bad character, and the match up is likely 7:3 or worse.

Just wait until MK mains realize they can run the clock in this MU

 

[Aaron1997]

BananaBake Marth is really good. His results speaks for the itself. Multiple top 16/top 8 at Majors, sets over top 5 players. ZeRo, Mr.R. Dancing Blade is so good but nobody talks about it. (18% from a frame 6 move? Kill potential? yes pls) Tippers are amazing. I can't really think of anything really bad about him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

doesn't marth still do poorly against projectile based zoners like TL, Villy and MM or has that changed over time?

 

[Ulevo]

Just wait until MK mains realize they can run the clock in this MU

Against Peach or Rosalina.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Against Peach or Rosalina.

Rosa. Rosa players without Luma tend to camp ledge and for some reason MK players with a full stock lead want to rush in and try to get the ladder. Just pressure her outside of her zone and don't overcommit. She can't do much to stop Luma dying from the easy walk>ftilts as is, and trying to approach MK as Rosa without Luma is asking to die.

really no need to time out peach, though, as you said.
peach is bad

 

[|RK|]

Rosalina is fine against Meta Knight. It is in his favor, but a Rosalina that has studied the match up should have a viable chance at winning.

Peach is a bad character, and the match up is likely 7:3 or worse.

That's the first time I've heard that. I would never say Dabuz hasn't studied any match-up, least of all the one that is a thorn in his side. Could you explain how Rosalina does fine against Meta Knight?

 

[Ulevo]

That's the first time I've heard that. I would never say Dabuz hasn't studied any match-up, least of all the one that is a thorn in his side. Could you explain how Rosalina does fine against Meta Knight?

Rosalina is a firm 4:6 versus Meta Knight. Rosalina needs to know the real %'s where she dies by specific confirms, and play to control center stage before and after those percents, not during. This is where most players mess up from the start. I have seen Dabuz do it, and I saw Samsora do it the entire set. When you're in the percent window to die, you need to play at the ledge. But playing at the ledge the entire set, particularly at the beginning of the match, is foolish. The fact that I see players do this tells me they are scared because they do not know when they actually die, and this is ignorance from neglecting to study the match up. In contrast, you cannot be trying to play aggressive and out muscle Meta Knight during the percent windows because you're asking to die.

If you play around the window only and try to use superior neutral tools with Luma to control centre stage, it is doable. You also need to know which way to DI depending on the percent so that you have a shot of getting out. There were quite a few times Samsora could have avoided dying versus Abadango but he failed to DI correctly.

Also, players should not be opting to go on flat stages like Final Destination, like Samsora did the entire GF's set. That's suicide.

 

[BananaBake]

BananaBake Marth is really good. His results speaks for the itself. Multiple top 16/top 8 at Majors, sets over top 5 players. ZeRo, Mr.R. Dancing Blade is so good but nobody talks about it. (18% from a frame 6 move? Kill potential? yes pls) Tippers are amazing. I can't really think of anything really bad about him.

Fair enough, I just never see him top 15 in any tier list

 

[jet56]

While i don't want to start a huge debate in itself, it does seem fair to point out that not only was this an all 3 stock tourney, but that all of top 8 was Bo5 as well. And how, from my perspective, it really didn't change anything, or to be more accurate, didn't change enough in terms of consistency and the like, from what i can tell. While it does improve consistency in the game, at the same time, adding an extra stock doesn't seem to change enough. Good example of this is when Reflex SD'd stock one on Lylat, and coudn't bring it back despite having an extra stock to work with. Not to mention that the matches indeed took longer, averaging about 5-6 min. per game. While time in itself shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether 3 stock is plausible for the scene or not, I believe, from what i have seen, that 3 stock does not offer enough of a "consistency" boost for the tradeoff of more time and longer sets.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I kind of doubt peach vs MK is the 7:3 it used to be in the Brawl days.

That MU single handedly made her unviable in Brawl as a solo main.

She doesn't cry as much to MKs range nor does she have the recovery issues Metaknight can exploit as easily against Rosalina.

If she does bad it's due to her floaty nature and MKs punish game rather than abusing tornado, UpB OoS, brain dead spacing and Ftilt like it was in Brawl.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I kind of doubt peach vs MK is the 7:3 it used to be in the Brawl days.

That MU single handedly made her unviable in Brawl as a solo main.

She doesn't cry as much to MKs range nor does she have the recovery issues Metaknight can exploit as easily against Rosalina.

If she does bad it's due to her floaty nature and MKs punish game rather than abusing tornado, UpB OoS, brain dead spacing and Ftilt like it was in Brawl.

Keep in mind that a 7:3 in Smash 4 is a bit less severe than a 7:3 in Melee or Brawl.
also a sidenote:
I'm putting up MK vs Jiggs as the worst MU in the game. Sheik/Ganon and Bayo/Ganon aren't even close.