Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

Uh, let's not pretend that Smash 4 really lets that many characters shine. Sure, it's nice to pull off a flashy combo once in a while with Jiggs or Zelda, but let's not forget that when you're playing a low or bottom tier, you're not only fighting against your opponent, but Sakurai too.

 

[blackghost]

Uh, let's not pretend that Smash 4 really lets that many characters shine. Sure, it's nice to pull off a flashy combo once in a while with Jiggs or Zelda, but let's not forget that when you're playing a low or bottom tier, you're not only fighting against your opponent, but Sakurai too.

how much brawl or melee have you played? 58 characters roughly 50 can mess you up if you go in uninformed other don't respect them. that's absolutely incredibly considering the other games in this series.
but in the end someone is at the bottom always is. and zelda (outside of brawl minus) is always weak she needs a redesign not buffs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think that being able to put in work with Zelda is more of an indicator that even the worst characters in this game are at least functional, as opposed to Zelda being a secret mid tier. Melee and Brawl did a good job conditioning us to think that bottom tier = dysfunctional trash, but that's no longer the case. So instead of seeing a good Zelda and thinking there must be more to her, maybe she belongs in a higher tier, maybe it just means that even the bottom tier has to be respected somewhat.

 

[H4Xcaster The Hylian]

I Just Want That Zelda Get Buffed and Sheik Dissapear,Samus Get Buffed and Zero Suit Samus Nerfed

 

[meleebrawler]

Why do people say "I think X character is top 10, or top 15" when that really means top 1-10, or 11-15.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why do people say "I think X character is top 10, or top 15" when that really means top 1-10, or 11-15.

If they say that, they probably think the character is around 8-12.

 

[DanGR]

I've found that I save a lot of time not responding to posts that strike me as exceedingly peculiar. I've saved so much time, in fact, that I've coined a name for this newfound technique: stress canceling. Lest we find ourselves reprimanded for arguing over my naming skills, I propose we move on to more worthwhile discussion. *hint, hint*

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-part-x.440224/

 

[H4Xcaster The Hylian]

Last time I checked zelda was considered bottom 5 in brawl, and I hate to break it to you but everyone would be better without some of their weaknesses.

Yes Everyone,But Some Character in Special Needs Buffs,Like Jigglypuff,Zelda,Samus,Ganondorf and Duck Hunt

 

[Shaya]

This thread isn't about extremely low-level "buff/nerf" discussions.
Welcome to Smashboards, but this thread may not be the right place for you.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Thoughts on atm? This thread hasn't really discussed him in a while outside of my quandary over Sky and The Wall a few pages back. I think it's safe to say this character is not and will never be as good as he was made out to be in the beginning of this game's young meta. The "amazing frame data" meme has died down since people realized that this dude has more moves than just nair and jab. It's certainly not enough to make up for a horrendously laggy grab, bad roll and spot dodge data, a shield with unique properties that can be problematic (such as not being able to shield drop), and a very linear/predictable recovery. He has good smash attacks but his only setups into them are jab and I'm not sure if they're super reliable (?). His matchups against the top tiers are concerning. He loses to both Diddy and Cloud which is a pretty serious roadblock today.

For all of these reasons I think Yoshi will struggle in tournament and can never be above mid tier. However, he does have some stuff for sure. His mobility is pretty stellar, having the 14th fastest run in the game while touting the fastest aerial speed too. These two things used in conjunction with his b-reversible, wave-bounceable and perfect pivotable command grab mean he has some pretty cool movement options on the ground and in the air. Egg toss is a fantastic projectile that can force approaches, aid recovery, and even convert into an up air. His ground game is a solid outside of his pathetic ftilt and normal grab, with dtilt as a spacing option, a nice dash attack, uptilt as a combo starter/anti air, and jab for jab stuff.

Because Yoshi has some fundamentally flawed design choices while also having some really good and unfamiliar options sprinkled throughout his kit, I think he has a niche as a unique kind of counterpick character that we've seen before from Dabuz. Olimar is not a great character and Dabuz himself acknowledges this. However, Olimar is able to work for him because he's uncommon and has some frustrating tools to deal with. I could see Yoshi achieving this too, with people getting frustrated vs eggs, falling for his grab release shenanigans, over-respecting his recovery, and getting caught by egg lay movement mixups.

 

[EternalFlare]

Another thing to note is that he took Kame to last stock last hit in a moneymatch the day or so before EVO.
and a quick reminder of what place Kame proceeded to get is probably not necessary.

I think run off reverse banana fair is actually kinda busted for Diddy going for 2 frames, btw. It's a solid part of what makes that matchup so bad.

edit: M2 matchup, sorry

You can't 2 frame teleports from above stage level to the ledge. That's why teleport recoveries are so good in this game.

This might also be the case for some other recoveries but they tend to take longer and leave you vulnerable when doing them high before grabbing the ledge.

I agree that Diddy solidly beats MewTwo though. His ground game is superior (he doesn't have to go anywhere near Mewtwo's threatening range and with a banana he outranges and whiff punishes everything he does). And Mewtwo's mobility isn't good enough to make it hard for Diddy to lock him down. Plus his fast aerials stuff Mewtwo in the air who's a big slow target (ideal for fair walls).

It doesn't help that Mewtwo is so light downtilt is a kill confirm at 100 on him (with mid weight characters and above you need 125+ without rage).

Interesting fact about Evo. Nakat was actually the closest person to beating Ally there. It went to last game, last hit. Who knows how the tournament would have turned out had Ally gone to losers early (maybe Kame would have won the whole thing from winners).

 

[TDK]

Im So Sorry,But Im New and I Dont Know Where I Can Post My Own Tier List and opinións,And I Want To Make My Own Forum

you can post a tier list here, but you have to be able to justify it. So you have to make at least a single-paragraph writeup on it as well to justify your placements.

 

[FeelMeUp]

You can't 2 frame teleports from above stage level to the ledge. That's why teleport recoveries are so good in this game.

errr....yeah...I know.....
I'm a Sheik main....
The point is that you can't always recover low.

 

[Aaron1997]

As everyone already knows, the Japanese online scene is very strong and carries a lot of Hidden boss's that plays interesting Characters. So because i'm bored and love the Japanese scene, Here is the top 10 for Sumamate (Japanese Anthers ladder)

1. Some
2. Ron
3. Masha
4. SH
5. Hitori
6. //
7. FILIP
8. Kiruwo
9. Kuchi
10. T.JACK (This is a different T)

 

[Y2Kay]

As everyone already knows, the Japanese online scene is very strong and carries a lot of Hidden boss's that plays interesting Characters. So because i'm bored and love the Japanese scene, Here is the top 10 for Sumamate (Japanese Anthers ladder)

1. Some
2. Ron
3. Masha
4. SH
5. Hitori
6. //
7. FILIP
8. Kiru-o
9. Kuchi
10. T.JACK (This is a different T)

I've been wondering where the hell Some ninja vanished off to. I see his been putting in work on wifi low key.

Still, good stuff from him. ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly even the "bottom 15" character thing is hard to decide, like yeah you could say its Zelda, Gannon, and Jiggs for bottom three but what comes after that? Every character that's described as low tier has something that keeps them from being absolute trash, even those three characters. Zelda for instance has extremely powerful finishers for their speed and can change the tide of a battle with just a few hits, Gannon can get just one stupid combo for 50% then read your ledge roll with an fsmash read and boom you're dead, Jigglypuff can wall you out with bairs for 5 minutes, get one read with rest and then all of a sudden you're down a stock against a character with insane air speed, 6 jumps and pound who can basically just be a giant ****ing asshole and float around other the stage for 3 minutes unless its a Sheik or an MK they're up against. The point is, every single character in this game has something that keeps them from being absolute ****. They have something that makes them worth playing over other characters and that's what I feel makes it so hard to make a concrete list below the top 10 or 15 characters

 

[L9999]

Honestly even the "bottom 15" character thing is hard to decide, like yeah you could say its Zelda, Gannon, and Jiggs for bottom three but what comes after that? Every character that's described as low tier has something that keeps them from being absolute trash, even those three characters. Zelda for instance has extremely powerful finishers for their speed and can change the tide of a battle with just a few hits, Gannon can get just one stupid combo for 50% then read your ledge roll with an fsmash read and boom you're dead, Jigglypuff can wall you out with bairs for 5 minutes, get one read with rest and then all of a sudden you're down a stock against a character with insane air speed, 6 jumps and pound who can basically just be a giant ****ing ******* and float around other the stage for 3 minutes unless its a Sheik or an MK they're up against. The point is, every single character in this game has something that keeps them from being absolute ****. They have something that makes them worth playing over other characters and that's what I feel makes it so hard to make a concrete list below the top 10 or 15 characters

Even if most of this are risky gimmicks, I second that every character has something silly to be wary. Even garbage has a couple options like Dair footstool, Uair and gimmick ledge spike.

 

[Das Koopa]

stuff I'm using this weekend

-Clutch City Clash (Texas)
-Rebirth VIII (Michigan)
-GUMS09 (Massachusetts)
-Don't You Dair 2 (NorCal)

i have no idea if I'm using Road to Shine yet

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Another thing is that even if every character is good, there has to be a "bottom 10" no matter what. Even if we think Jigglypuff is good/viable/whatever, she could still be the worst character in the game because the other 57 characters are better than her. That's why I think being "bottom 10" doesn't mean as much in this game because every character has stuff they can do. It's more about being viable/non-viable rather than some arbitrary number on the tier list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As everyone already knows, the Japanese online scene is very strong and carries a lot of Hidden boss's that plays interesting Characters. So because i'm bored and love the Japanese scene, Here is the top 10 for Sumamate (Japanese Anthers ladder)

1. Some
2. Ron
3. Masha
4. SH
5. Hitori
6. //
7. FILIP
8. Kiru-o
9. Kuchi
10. T.JACK (This is a different T)

For those of you who care Masha was the best Falco main in Brawl, arguably even edging out Larry in terms of result. Kid had an insane overall record against all sorts of top level players. Then he randomly quit at some point after winning a major tournament where he destroyed pretty much everybody and started playing Street Fighter. If he finds his way back into the offline scene he's gonna destroy people.

The G&W player's name is actually Kiruwo I think. Another one who was the best with his character in Brawl, then dipped and now resurfaces in the japanese online community. There's also a Samus player named YB who's name just popped up in the some recent online tournaments. Dude was insane and even took a game off M2K's MK back in the day.

 

[anas abou]

i made this tier list yesterday, i thought i should post it since it took me a couple hours to make.
i watch this game obsessively so this is mostly results based but i still made sure to keep it accurate to my opinions.

no S -tier, mario's results are too good to be ignored (has no weaknesses tbh), cloud is slightly overrated, ganon is complete garbage, little mac is trash, lucas is underrated, DR mario should be judged without comparing to mario.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

i made this tier list yesterday, i thought i should post it since it took me a couple hours to make.
i watch this game obsessively so this is mostly results based but i still made sure to keep it accurate to my opinions.

no S -tier, mario's results are too good to be ignored (has no weaknesses tbh), cloud is slightly overrated, ganon is complete garbage, little mac is trash, lucas is underrated, DR mario should be judged without comparing to mario.

Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Bowser, and Falco are all a bit too low
Link has the results to keep him out of bottom 15 and DH was a middish tier since the day he started picking up steam. Little Mac has godly frame data on everything but his aerials, good matchups with certain high tiers, and good comeback potential. Falco is slow but has good frame data, a good grab game, good combo game overall, and he can box people out pretty well. Bowser is kind of weird, a good Bowser is going to punish you for doing just about anything and consistently kill you at 90, but if he messes up once that could be a stock for him

 

[Emblem Lord]

"Cloud is overrated"

Virtually every tier list that is posted or discussed has him in the top 10.

Guys...shut up.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There is simply no way Little Mac can be rated that low. He doesn't have amazing results overall but way better results than a lot of characters you placed him behind like Falco, D3, Shulk and Jr. and at much bigger tournaments

I think your looking too much into his terrible recovery than anything else

 

[anas abou]

There is simply no way Little Mac can be rated that low. He doesn't have amazing results overall but way better results than a lot of characters you placed him behind like Falco, D3, Shulk and Jr. and at much bigger tournaments

I think your looking too much into his terrible recovery than anything else

little mac is so bad he makes me want to puke, grab and air game is also garbage, plus he can be camped/timed out on platforms, stop saying he has okay results he doesn't.

"Cloud is overrated"

Virtually every tier list that is posted or discussed has him in the top 10.

Guys...shut up.

people on twitter were saying he's top 1 like two weeks ago.

 

[Frihetsanka]

little mac is so bad he makes me want to puke, grab and air game is also garbage, plus he can be camped/timed out on platforms, stop saying he has okay results he doesb't.

#32 for top 16 weighted, #38 for top 8 weighted, out of 58 characters.

 

[Fenny]

little mac is so bad he makes me want to puke, grab and air game is also garbage, plus he can be camped/timed out on platforms, stop saying he has okay results he doesb't.

Literally what?

What kind of For Glory matches have you been obsessively watching?

Yes his air game's trash, yes his grab game's subpar, yes platforms **** him over more often than not. But a pick of FD or an Omega stage with walls can just as easily make Little Mac very threatening in capable hands. Certain stages like Lylat have platforms low enough for Mac to still attack opponents from above with his up tilt (iirc) and up smash. It's unfavourable for him obviously but you'll still be rocked if you underestimate him

As for results, iirc he's like in the #30ish range for results in top 16 out of 58 characters, so even in that regard you're false.

 

[L9999]

i made this tier list yesterday, i thought i should post it since it took me a couple hours to make.
i watch this game obsessively so this is mostly results based but i still made sure to keep it accurate to my opinions.

no S -tier, mario's results are too good to be ignored (has no weaknesses tbh), cloud is slightly overrated, ganon is complete garbage, little mac is trash, lucas is underrated, DR mario should be judged without comparing to mario.

There are Little Mac results, and Macs place quite decently nowadays for being a "trash character". (Greninja'd). And Dr. Mario, he has Lucina syndrome that no one plays him because he has a superior clone (a much superior clone) and unlike Lucina, who is just slightly inferior, Dr. Mario is totally inferior and stacks up with the enormous cast of better characters with more developed metas. Plus, Dr. Mario's mobility is bad and his recovery is garbage. A single hit w/o jump offstage and he is deader than dead. (running theme in low tier ). Dr. Mario hasn't done anything since the Nairo MLG 2015 fiasco, and in Genesis 3 that gimmick failed hard.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

little mac is so bad he makes me want to puke, grab and air game is also garbage, plus he can be camped/timed out on platforms, stop saying he has okay results he doesb't.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Read this

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

little mac is so bad he makes me want to puke, grab and air game is also garbage, plus he can be camped/timed out on platforms, stop saying he has okay results he doesb't.

So don't use his air moves. Why would you use them outside of mix ups (dtilt > fair > tech chase for example), jab locks, and edge guarding anyway (fair and dair edge guards are hilarious) when his grounded moves are god like? Utilize your character's strengths, not their weaknesses.

 

[Nobie]

Thoughts on atm? This thread hasn't really discussed him in a while outside of my quandary over Sky and The Wall a few pages back. I think it's safe to say this character is not and will never be as good as he was made out to be in the beginning of this game's young meta. The "amazing frame data" meme has died down since people realized that this dude has more moves than just nair and jab. It's certainly not enough to make up for a horrendously laggy grab, bad roll and spot dodge data, a shield with unique properties that can be problematic (such as not being able to shield drop), and a very linear/predictable recovery. He has good smash attacks but his only setups into them are jab and I'm not sure if they're super reliable (?). His matchups against the top tiers are concerning. He loses to both Diddy and Cloud which is a pretty serious roadblock today.

For all of these reasons I think Yoshi will struggle in tournament and can never be above mid tier. However, he does have some stuff for sure. His mobility is pretty stellar, having the 14th fastest run in the game while touting the fastest aerial speed too. These two things used in conjunction with his b-reversible, wave-bounceable and perfect pivotable command grab mean he has some pretty cool movement options on the ground and in the air. Egg toss is a fantastic projectile that can force approaches, aid recovery, and even convert into an up air. His ground game is a solid outside of his pathetic ftilt and normal grab, with dtilt as a spacing option, a nice dash attack, uptilt as a combo starter/anti air, and jab for jab stuff.

Because Yoshi has some fundamentally flawed design choices while also having some really good and unfamiliar options sprinkled throughout his kit, I think he has a niche as a unique kind of counterpick character that we've seen before from Dabuz. Olimar is not a great character and Dabuz himself acknowledges this. However, Olimar is able to work for him because he's uncommon and has some frustrating tools to deal with. I could see Yoshi achieving this too, with people getting frustrated vs eggs, falling for his grab release shenanigans, over-respecting his recovery, and getting caught by egg lay movement mixups.

One thing I noticed about Yoshi is that he can have trouble following up on his most reliable moves. This is just my limited perception as someone who doesn't really use Yoshi, but I feel like he's usually stuck in end lag as his opponents are flying away.

I know people like to say that Smash 4 has no follow-ups, but at least a lot of characters can run after their opponents and pressure them. Yoshi hits them, and by the time he can start chasing it feels like the opponent's already back in control of their character with little trouble.

And yeah, that roll is baaad. Like, I think I'd rather have Samus's roll.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I guess if were allowed to post tier lists as long as there's an explanation, here's basically a wall of text in tier list form

 

[Nu~]

I guess if were allowed to post tier lists as long as there's an explanation, here's basically a wall of text in tier list form

View attachment 114303

Can you explain bowser and DK's positioning?

 

[Sinister Slush]

One thing I noticed about Yoshi is that he can have trouble following up on his most reliable moves. This is just my limited perception as someone who doesn't really use Yoshi, but I feel like he's usually stuck in end lag as his opponents are flying away.

I know people like to say that Smash 4 has no follow-ups, but at least a lot of characters can run after their opponents and pressure them. Yoshi hits them, and by the time he can start chasing it feels like the opponent's already back in control of their character with little trouble.

And yeah, that roll is baaad. Like, I think I'd rather have Samus's roll.

Mostly cause as Shaymin said, the meme of Yoshi being a frame data monster has died down thankfully.
Fastest moves he has in terms of aerial speed is nair and Uair and those're usually not followups unless they're inside your body basically but nair Hitbox isn't actually that big compared to say pac-man or villager from initial frames and Uair is only big in vertical terms not horizontal. Nair is just a quick get away move Yoshi's instinctively spam which is fine, abuse the frame 3 nair.

Everything else that knocks people away has too much lag or just comes out pretty late (fair with 16, our main aerial move we like to throw out to start small strings) it just has a deceptively big hitbox. Otherwise only time he can followup on stuff in the air is if he lands an egg toss into fair/Uair which isn't that common at high level play for obvious reasons.

As for Jab1 stuff if you meant that in terms of following up, that's an entirely different beast to go on about. I tried to get some people to work with me and do a chart for Jab into whatever smashes or aerials but it ultimately failed, so unless BSD (cause Slice) MSC or another channel like those does it, most likely not gonna come up anytime soon to know what goes into what.

 

[Murlough]

I guess if were allowed to post tier lists as long as there's an explanation, here's basically a wall of text in tier list form

View attachment 114303

Why do you think Mewtwo is better than Diddy?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I guess if were allowed to post tier lists as long as there's an explanation, here's basically a wall of text in tier list form

View attachment 114303

You think Falco "might" need a secondary?

Ugh.

Guys please stop trying to be PC and spare people's feelings about their main. Just be real. That entire tier should read "These characters are flawed and if you wanna do any damage in a tourney you better have some serious back-up unless you enjoy being a pot monster."

 

[TTTTTsd]

his recovery is garbage. A single hit w/o jump offstage and he is deader than dead

Do people still perpetuate the meme that this only applies to Doc in terms of losing a jump offstage? Like 70-80% of the cast dies offstage without a double jump, I thought this was pretty easily established like, early post-3DS days.

Dr. Mario's recovery is far from his actual big issue which is mobility, and even then it's only his footspeed that's actually undertuned. His jump height is low but it gives him one of the best SHs in the game combined with the aerials he has, his max air speed is about in the middle-low areas and his accel isn't terrible either in the air, just average-y.

The amount of times I see Doc gimped at any good level of play is like, at least 25-30 less occasions than characters like Cloud or Falco (I would say Ganon, his is kinda bad too but he does have good aerials for swatting people away, praise Uair). There should be a prerequisite for knowing about a character to some extent before posting about them.

I don't even think Doc is great either (I think he's like, ok/10), I think he has a few specific MUs where he's preferrable over Mario and in my opinion I'd rather play Doc vs. Mario than the Mario ditto (Doc vs. Mario is so fun, winning every trade is great <3). Solo Doc is logistically impossible but he's a decent complimentary to Mario as a character.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Why do you think Mewtwo is better than Diddy?

characters are not ordered within tiers, personally though I think Diddy is better than Mewtwo. Diddy has proven over and over that hes a strong character as a concept, hes been nerfed several times along with a few other members of the cast and is still a top 5 character. The combination of good mobility, a reliable grab game, and fast safe aerials to me is what makes a high tier, add in a way to consistently force people to trip from halfway across the stage with little to no risk and you have a top tier monster. Mewtwo on the otehr hand has just started to get on the rise and is quickly proving to be in the same boat, I'm just not entirely sure where he's going to end up yet. He could end up as the best character in the game or the 10th best, hes still rather underdeveloped compared to others

Can you explain bowser and DK's positioning?

Oh **** i just realized this is a slightly outdated version, I should probably post the revised one. Tbh DK and Bowser will both end up as low tiers, no matter how good of a kill confirm you have that cant save you from a poor neutral and recovery/ledge options that can be taken advantage of on reaction

You think Falco "might" need a secondary?

Ugh.

Guys please stop trying to be PC and spare people's feelings about their main. Just be real. That entire tier should read "These characters are flawed and if you wanna do any damage in a tourney you better have some serious back-up unless you enjoy being a pot monster."

Same situation as DK and Bowser, slightly outdated. Falco is a counterpick character. He doesn't need a secondary for a few matchups, he IS that secondary

Can I Post My Tier List?

Be prepared to explain positions

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Can I Post My Tier List?

You could but I wish you wouldn't, it wouldn't be productive for us to have to stop and discuss the tier list of any of the thousands of random people that come into this thread. I suggest you just read the thread and lurk for a while so you can become more informed about the game first, since I can see you just started posting on the site it would be helpful for you to gather more knowledge and make a tier list when you're more informed. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but unless you're a well known player who's pretty good and we know you know what you're talking about, there is no reason for anyone in here to care about your tier list. Again that isn't to be rude, its just the truth. Nobody has any reason to care about mine either, that's for sure.

And you guys know how Dabuz said Olimar is a good character on certain stages? I think Little Mac is probably the same way, he isn't anywhere close to viable as a solo main, but on FD or something he for sure has to jump up several spots on the tier list compared to being anywhere else.

One more thing, are we finally at the point where it seems like Miis are not legal to change at majors and will never be able to? If it looks like they are really settled on 50/50 1111 at this point then maybe we can finally start to discuss them seriously. I always avoided the topic before because I felt it was pointless because depending on the rules of that particular tournament they either shoot up or down in viability, but it looks like they will never be legal really so I'm not going to wait on that any longer.