Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Keep in mind that a 7:3 in Smash 4 is a bit less severe than a 7:3 in Melee or Brawl.
also a sidenote:
I'm putting up MK vs Jiggs as the worst MU in the game. Sheik/Ganon and Bayo/Ganon aren't even close.

I rate my ratios the same between game titles.

Peach v MK is 7:3 possibly worse than that.

Smash 4 it probably a 6:4 in MKs favor but nothing she can't work around and still win.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I rate my ratios the same between game titles.

Peach v MK is 7:3 possibly worse than that.

Smash 4 it probably a 6:4 in MKs favor but nothing she can't work around and still win.

A 7:3 in one game isn't the same as a 7:3 in another, though.
Big difference between Peach IC's in Melee and Falcon Sheik in this, for example.

 

[Fenny]

Fair enough, I just never see him top 15 in any tier list

He was #10 in Dabuz's

 

[Rizen]

A 7:3 in one game isn't the same as a 7:3 in another, though.

Yes it is. This is why you see several 7/3 strong advantage/disadvantage MUs in Brawl but hardly any in SSB4. Bad characters aren't as bad.

On that note are there any 7/3s or worse in SSB4?

 

[FeelMeUp]

There's plenty of 7:3s in Smash 4. People just want to scream about how balanced the game is and put every MU as something dumb like 55:45 or 6:4.
Fox vs most superheavyweights, for example, would be 7:3.
Mac Fox is probably 65:35/7:3 on all stages not named FD.

 

[LRodC]

Yes it is. This is why you see several 7/3 strong advantage/disadvantage MUs in Brawl but hardly any in SSB4. Bad characters aren't as bad.

On that note are there any 7/3s or worse in SSB4?

I would argue that Little Mac probably has a few 7/3s. I heard that Cloud and Peach are potentially two.

Mac/Fox isn't good for Mac, but at least he makes up for it with the ability to KO Fox at 0% from a down tilt if KO Punch is active. That can't be ignored.

I'm firmly convinced that 7/3s existed back before patches too that don't anymore. ZSS/Charizard was probably 8:2 in 1.0.0.

 

[L9999]

All the big hurtbox characters have by default a 3:7 MU.

EDIT: My bad. I'm blind!!!!

 

[FullMoon]

Is MK still LM's worst MU?

 

[|RK|]

Yes it is. This is why you see several 7/3 strong advantage/disadvantage MUs in Brawl but hardly any in SSB4. Bad characters aren't as bad.

On that note are there any 7/3s or worse in SSB4?

Kirby vs Sonic. I've heard arguments that lower that, but it requires playing in a really mentally draining manner.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ZSS/Charizard was probably 8:2 in 1.0.0.

Can confirm.

That matchup was horrible before the nerfs.

I mean, it's probably Charizard's worst matchup by now but now its tolerable...

Like 6.5/3.5 or so.

 

[Rizen]

At high level play Ganon probably has a some +/-3s; timing him out is effective. Raycalm or Verm would be better suited to answer that. IDK about Mac and other heavys though.

Edit, I can see Char having some.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Marth consistently makes it into top 16/8, has multiple high/top level mains, and top level players using him for certain matchups. His matchup spread is that of a high/top tier with only 1 matchup definitely being worse than 45:55 and a few debatable ones like Sheik.. He goes even or wins against Fox, Mario, Cloud, and Mewtwo for the top tiers and wins/goes even with most other high tiers.

I've been waiting to say this without being dead wrong, Marth is a top tier. He may be on the lower end of the top tiers, but hes still one of them. If you consider the top 12 - 15 characters top tiers anyways.

As for 7:3 matchups or worse... Tbh the only ones that come to mind are Cloud vs LM, Fox vs fat characters except for M2, Marth vs Roy, and Sheik vs DK after people figure out that you can literally just ****ing bouncing fish him until he dies if he goes offstage at all after 40%. Seriously guys, this matchup is not even. He gets his **** pushed in in the neutral, and then Sheik can just get him to 60+ off of one combo and cary him offstage where she can spam Bouncing Fish until he dies

Charizard's mobility is way better than the other super heavies, I can't really see him having more than just Fox and ZSS steamroll him unlike the others

 

[FeelMeUp]

Personally thought Sheik vs DK was even until I realized the B button is a very strong tool if you hold down/no direction while using it. Needlecamping DK on FD/BF/DH is laughably bad, and banning T&C every game means he doesn't really get to do anything he wants. Easiest character to ledgetrap(imo) vs best ledgetrapper. Easy to juggle. Easy to edgeguard. Easy to needlecamp. etc.

I think Diddy and Sheik are both solidly 6:4 over Marth but he does notably well vs a LOT of characters.
imo the MUs that are 7:3 or worse off memory are:
Mac MK
MK vs most floaties
Bayo Ganon
Corrin vs Ness
Sonic vs Kirby
Peach vs Cloud
etc
a realization I had is that MK can't be mid tier if he has so many 7:3/8:2 MUs on "not awful" characters and is possibly singlehandedly stopping Rosa from dominating top level play as a CP.

 

[Rizen]

imo the MUs that are 7:3 or worse off memory are:
Mac MK
MK vs most floaties
Bayo Ganon
Corrin vs Ness
Sonic vs Kirby
Peach vs Cloud
etc

Why is Corrin vs Ness so bad?

 

[Fenny]

Why is Corrin vs Ness so bad?

Insta-pin practically invalidates Ness' tools in the neutral. He's juggle food for him/her and gets gimped for free because Corrin's counter is so damn good and Dragon Lunge is dumb

 

[LRodC]

Can confirm.

That matchup was horrible before the nerfs.

I mean, it's probably Charizard's worst matchup by now but now its tolerable...

Like 6.5/3.5 or so.

Not just the nerfs; Charizard has been massively buffed since then as well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I kind of doubt peach vs MK is the 7:3 it used to be in the Brawl days.

That MU single handedly made her unviable in Brawl as a solo main.

1.) I don't see how it's so hard to see it as a 7/3 matchup in smash 4. Haven't you seen what Abadango did to Samsora? And he's not an MK main, mind you. If getting a single opening through something like dash attack is enough to open up an easy any%-death combo then 7/3 actually looks a bit ... low.

2.) Peach had many bad matchups in Brawl. Her records against Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth and Olimar ranged from pretty bad to downright awful. Even though she's not a good character in smash 4 her matchup spread is overall more manageable now and it's just generally more likely and common to see performances like Samsora's yesterday. Especially with her disproportiately skilled playerbase.

3.) People are generally way too conservative with matchup numbers and apparently love double standards [see below]. Fox vs Sheik is generally seen as a 6/4 matchup in Sheik's favor even though Larry has almost perfect records with every top level Sheik he played [1-0 vs Vinnie, 3 or 4-0 vs Mr r, favorable vs k9] -it's still fair assesment given how Void handles Larry's Fox. Now if Fox vs Sheik is a 4/6 matchup it just seems way wrong to assign the same ratio to MK vs Rosalina like @Ulevo suggested. That matchup is easily 7/3 in MK's favor and for all we know MK vs Peach could be even more one-sided depending on whether she does better vs MK in neutral or not.

Keep in mind that a 7:3 in Smash 4 is a bit less severe than a 7:3 in Melee or Brawl.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If the same matchup ratio can have two different meanings across two different games you should overhaul your methodology imo. Why would you assume that everybody uses the same double standards as you?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not just the nerfs; Charizard has been massively buffed since then as well.

That's true but the buffs didn't affect anything that made ZSS such a hard matchup for Zard.

 

[FeelMeUp]

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If the same matchup ratio can have two different meanings across two different games you should overhaul your methodology imo. Why would you assume that everybody uses the same double standards as you?

Sure it does.
Characters in Melee, Brawl and 64 have more tools at the top and fewer at the bottom in comparison to the opposite side of the cast. This generates matchups that were usually much worse overall, as the unintentional overbearing qualities of certain things(see: waveshine and CC Rest for Melee or planking/CGs) can make a supposed 7:3 matchup in one game be harder fought than a 7:3 in another.
Would you rather be playing Sheik Ganon in S4 or Sheik Ganon in Melee?
The same matchup ratio can have two different meanings precisely because they're two different games.
That much should be clear to you. Since when do you ever hold the matchups in this series by the same standard knowing the dreadful power difference between each game's characters?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That's true but the buffs didn't affect anything that made ZSS such a hard matchup for Zard.

So less landing lag in general doesn't help against a character who's soul purpose is to punish you for things?

Nah that's not how it works. He also got plenty of tools to help him in the neutral like less landing lag/increased damage on moves and a grab game that is actually threatening to help him against ZSS.

All Charizard needs is an air speed buff, to around 1.0. That's literally all he needs to make him viable outside of counterpicks. If we get one more patch, I wouldn't be surprised if he got that. Doubt we will get a patch though so I guess we'll have to work with this underdeveloped ****** who isn't a dragon

 

[Ffamran]

There's probably some 80:20 / -3 MUs in Smash 4, but with the way people make their MU spreads where 40:60 / -1 is considered a bad MU and 60:40 / +1 is considered as an advantage, it's... I'm just going to stop myself since this is pretty much a red topic of, "Duh, what does a bad MU ratio look like?" *imbecile noises*

I will just say one last thing: people don't like admitting defeat. Face it, if you have a bad MU, it's bad. Don't try to pretend it's not with little numbers or that you "figured it out". Frankly, it's not even a big deal. There are characters or archetypes that just beat your character or character archetype. It's like seeing someone with a really good stand-up game, but terrible grappling and ground game. You can punch and kick all you want, but once a person throws you down and because you specialized so much in stand-up, you're screwed. That's just it. Don't go, "Oh, but what if he doesn't catch me?", or, "What if he doesn't throw me?". What ifs mean jack in a fight.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So less landing lag in general doesn't help against a character who's soul purpose is to punish you for things?

Nah that's not how it works. He also got plenty of tools to help him in the neutral like less landing lag/increased damage on moves and a grab game that is actually threatening to help him against ZSS.

All Charizard needs is an air speed buff, to around 1.0. That's literally all he needs to make him viable outside of counterpicks. If we get one more patch, I wouldn't be surprised if he got that. Doubt we will get a patch though so I guess we'll have to work with this underdeveloped ****** who isn't a dragon

Okay first calm down.

The reason why ZSS was so hard for Zard wasn't that Zard couldn't attack, its that if he made any mistake, she'd get a bajillion percentage and most likely a kill. Zard couldn't get out due to poor airspeed and his super armored moved could somehow clank with certain things ZSS did (its pretty crazy).

It wasn't until the first big set of ZSS nerfs that things started to get easier.

Then came the second set of Zard buffs which improved things like air speed to help escape combos even more.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Okay first calm down.

The reason why ZSS was so hard for Zard wasn't that Zard couldn't attack, its that if he made any mistake, she'd get a bajillion percentage and most likely a kill. Zard couldn't get out due to poor airspeed and his super armored moved could somehow clank with certain things ZSS did (its pretty crazy).

It wasn't until the first big set of ZSS nerfs that things started to get easier.

Then came the second set of Zard buffs which improved things like air speed to help escape combos even more.

but you just said that the ****in buffs Charizard got didn't matter

 

[FeelMeUp]

There's probably some 80:20 / -3 MUs in Smash 4, but with the way people make their MU spreads where 40:60 / -1 and 60:40 / +1 are considered bad MUs, it's... I'm just going to stop myself since this is pretty much a red topic of, "Duh, what does a bad MU ratio look like?" *imbecile noises*

I will just say one last thing: people don't like admitting defeat. Face it, if you have a bad MU, it's bad. Don't try to pretend it's not with little numbers or that you "figured it out". Frankly, it's not even a big deal. There are characters or even just archetypes that just beat your character or character archetype. It's like seeing someone with a really good stand-up game, but terrible grappling and ground game. You can punch and kick all you want, but once a person throws you down and because you specialized so much in stand-up, you're screwed. That's just it. Don't go, "Oh, but what if he doesn't catch me?", or, "What if he doesn't throw me?". What ifs mean jack in a fight.

I wish I could like this more than once. First example to come to mind is ESAM thinking Mario Pika is...what'd he say, 45:55 at worst?

 

[ARGHETH]

but you just said that the ****in buffs Charizard got didn't matter

He said they didn't matter because they didn't change anything in regards to the ZSS:Charizard MU...

I wish I could like this more than once. First example to come to mind is ESAM thinking Mario Pika is...what'd he say, 45:55 at worst?

40:60.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

but you just said that the ****in buffs Charizard got didn't matter

Ignoring context.

The original context was before the ZSS nerfs.

As in the buffs before the ZSS nerfs didn't really matter.

Learn to read.

And stop swearing.

Also don't do drugs.

Go to school.

Etc.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ignoring context.

The original context was before the ZSS nerfs.

As in the buffs before the ZSS nerfs didn't really matter.

Learn to read.

And stop swearing.

Also don't do drugs.

Go to school.

Etc.

i should probably do all those things and not type while pissed off at life **** i guess, rip me

 

[Swamp Sensei]

i should probably do all those things and not type while pissed off at life **** i guess, rip me

It's okay bud.

Not as bad as me bragging that flamethrower beat gordos back when the game began.

*sigh*




Come to think of it, is there anything that doesn't beat gordos?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

It's okay bud.

Not as bad as me bragging that flamethrower beat gordos back when the game began.

*sigh*




Come to think of it, is there anything that doesn't beat gordos?

Fox lasers?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fox lasers?

I keep forgetting Fox has lasers to be honest.

 

[ARGHETH]

Come to think of it, is there anything that doesn't beat gordos?

A bunch of jabs/rapid jabs, Fire Breath, most middle hits of multihit moves, Finishing Touch, and a couple of the faster projectiles.
There's a surprisingly large amount of moves that do less than 2%.

It actually can.

Huh. TIL Flamethrower has two different hitboxes.
I checked Fire Breath and just assumed Flamethrower was the same lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Flamethrower,

It actually can.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Come to think of it, is there anything that doesn't beat gordos?

Ganon.

 

[LRodC]

Didn't really mean to cause an argument. I was just talking about theory. I think it's fun to look back and see how much match ups have changed. And honestly, any buff, no matter how big or small, is going to affect a match up in some way or another.

Here's another fun one I thought of: 1.0.4 Diddy vs 1.0.6 Mewtwo. This MU is poor for Mewtwo now, but I wonder how bad it would've been like this?

 

[adom4]

Ganon.

You're just saying this for the sake of bashing Ganon aren't you?

 

[webbedspace]

The same matchup ratio can have two different meanings precisely because they're two different games.
That much should be clear to you. Since when do you ever hold the matchups in this series by the same standard knowing the dreadful power difference between each game's characters?

Matchup ratios have a specific definition. 7:3 means "given two players who have perfect MU knowledge, one will lose 7 games out of 10".
It does not make any mention of the power differences between the top and bottom tiers.

How is losing 7 Melee games out of 10 any different to losing 7 Smash4 games out of 10?

 

[Yonder]

Didn't really mean to cause an argument. I was just talking about theory. I think it's fun to look back and see how much match ups have changed. And honestly, any buff, no matter how big or small, is going to affect a match up in some way or another.

Here's another fun one I thought of: 1.0.4 Diddy vs 1.0.6 Mewtwo. This MU is poor for Mewtwo now, but I wonder how bad it would've been like this?

Hmm, I think Jigglypuff's 2nd level of hell involves getting hoo hah killed at 60 by pre patch Diddy Kong.

That imagery seems much more gruesome to me. Like R rated stuff.

At least Mewtwo would have a competent neutral and keep away game to survive for a bit, but it wouldn't be pretty. Mewtwo gets wrecked by Diddy currently, as well now.

Spoiler

good thing my other main is Luigi so it doesn't matter to me and no one knows counterpick Luigi's power

 

[Fenny]

You're just saying this for the sake of bashing Ganon aren't you?

well he isn't lying

the price of having all the mobility of a one-wheeled 4x4 and the recovery of a punctured blimp

 

[adom4]

well he isn't lying

the price of having all the mobility of a one-wheeled 4x4 and the recovery of a punctured blimp

What does that have to do with dealing with gordos?
Ganon's hitboxes are more than enough to reflect gordos.

 

[Meru.]

Ehm just to clear up a few things.

Samsora is a super good player, and easily one of the best Peach players in the world as he has proved in this tournament. However, he wasn't ready for the MK matchup. Knowledge of the MK matchup is very specific as it requires a lot of edge camping, until you're out of 0-death percent. Samsora actually did do this at the beginning of game 1 where he kept running to the ledge. It worked out and he got a 1 stock lead, but he stopped doing it from the second stock onwards for some reason, and got punished hard for it. I wish he had continued his ledge camping throughout the set, but oh well.

I am not experienced vs Meta Knight myself, but my source for this is Umeki, who has plenty of experience vs Meta Knight, most notably vs Abadango's Meta Knight himself. He told me that as long as you ledge camp, the matchup is actually super doable, because after 0 death percent Peach actually does pretty well vs him. Even in Samsora vs Abadango you could see that if he managed to survive past 35, the tides would quickly turn into Peach's favor. Peach likely still loses the matchup, but it isn't even nearly as bad as we saw yesterday.

(As for Rosalina vs Meta Knight, Kirihara has beaten Abadango's Meta Knight after the patch, with pretty much the same tactic.)

It's quite funny how it's stated that Peach is a bad character the day after she gets second in a tournament being used for 90%, beating one of the best players in the world and a Diddy Kong who is said to be one of her oh so hard match-ups. Peach is also said to have "no results", yet in @Das Koopa 's results thread, she is top 20 easily. The results are certainly not suggesting "Peach is a bad character", unless you consider upper half in the cast as bad.