Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

weekend results

Spoiler: Clutch City Clash (August 6th-7th) (South) (241 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango ,
2nd: Samsora ,
3rd: Ally
4th: Trevonte
5th: Mew2King
5th: CaptainZack
7th: DJ Fliphop
7th: ScAtt
9th: Megafox
9th: 6WX
9th: P2P With Gibus
9th: TheReflexWonder
13th: BC
13th: Illusion
13th: LordMix
13th: Brawlman1000

Spoiler: Rebirth VIII (August 6th) (Midwest) (176 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Ryuga
4th: Rayquaza07 ,
5th: MJG
5th: Ned ,
7th: LOE1
7th: DarkShad
9th: Sethsational
9th: Blacktwins
9th: Nero
9th: Chris
13th: Cyco
13th: A-Fin
13th: Smasher1001 ,
13th: Colinies

Spoiler: Don’t You Dair 2 (August 7th) (Northern California) (105 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ito
2nd: Rice ,
3rd: FuTure
4th: Mudomo
5th: Sean
5th: Sinister
7th: Zex
7th: Nabster
9th: Haystack
9th: Jodi Bleek
9th: Kesa
9th: Three
13th: Hitaku
13th: Iron Gonzales
13th: Mr. Peabody
13th: Sks

Spoiler: GUMS 09 (August 7th) (New England) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pugwest
2nd: Craftis
3rd: MattyG ,
4th: Marss
5th: LingLing
5th: Light
7th: Glare
7th: BelaC
9th: Hero
9th: IceArrow
9th: Dark Wizzy
9th: XL-XCVll
13th: Siccarius
13th: DJ Delta
13th: Red Beef Baron
13th: Mr. Freeze

Updated map;

Re-added the Rocky Mountains region due to the attendees list from Revelation in CO taking heavily from CO, UT, and WY, removed Utah ad CO from Southwest, extended Southwest deeper into Texas.

may split the Midwest into 2 regions eventually like I did with Florida/Southeast but for now I think it works

 

[Key313]

SDI is only really effective when put into tumble. Meru was mentioning 35%. In the MK tumble thread it's listed as 44%. One would not be able to chain many of them around 35. http://smashboards.com/threads/uair-tumble-s.434712/

 

[Nu~]

Add garbage hitboxes on several of Pit's key moves to his flaws. And unsafe as all hell on block aside from 3 aerials.

3 aerials?
I count Bair and Dair. What else is safe?

Unless I'm missing something, Nair's awful horizontal range often gets you grabbed OoS (even if it does AC pretty early) and even a spaced Fair is dash grabable. He often has to commit to every aerial he uses.

 

[EternalFlare]

RE: Peach vs. MK counterplay

C'mon, it was just on the previous page.

First of all you can ledge camp/stay near the ledge in Melee and Brawl as well. In fact in those games you get infinite regrab ledge invincibility making "planking" far safer than it is in Smash 4. Running away isn't something exclusive to Smash 4 and it's laughable if that's what's being used to justify terrible matchups.

Secondly Samsora DID try to stay by the ledge at low percents in some of those games. It wasn't effective because Abadango eventually got in anyway often at the correct side (not offstage) so he could still go for the up B kills safely.

Thirdly, perhaps importantly at all, what's stopping MK from out camping Peach? He has the mobility and jumps to do it and as previously mentioned Peach can't chase. He doesn't HAVE to approach if Peach is by the ledge at all. He can take a small lead (doesn't have to go for a kill confirm and it it's easy if Peach has already cornered herself and limited her options) and then run away the rest of the game himself. Then Peach is forced to approach and leave herself open to death confirms or lose by time out.

 

[Ulevo]

Post.

Peach has an excellent pressure game, no doubt. Unfortunately she has little opportunity to capitaliza on the pressure she exerts because her mobility is not the best and most of it is exerted from the air, meaning that shields directly counter the attempts. If you try to counter Peach poking your shield with down air, you're going to be frustrated at your failed attempts, but if just roll away after the last down air hit box and reset to neutral all of her pressure is gone. Peach's unique angles would be a lot more threatening if she was faster, or if forward air was larger or faster, but she doesn't have the specs to make it work against an opponent who keeps their cool and knows the answers to the situations Peach poses.

Yes, she has mild disjoints on some moves, but they are hardly notable in the grand scheme of things. Meta Knight's sword is regarded as a butter knife yet it cleanly trumps virtually everything Peach attempts, either through frame data or hit box size. Most characters in this game with disjoints, of which there are a lot, have bitboxes much larger than Meta Knights.

She has stuff, I am just arguing its more cool and interesting than competitively useful since there are either clear answers to the stuff she has or its inferior and loses to the stuff of better characters in most cases.

Semantics at this point, but I have a feeling people were getting on your case when you said Peach was a bad character. If Peach is a bad character, then I can't imagine what characters like Falco and Jigglypuff would be... They'd be horrid!

Falco is okay. Jigglypuff is horrid.

 

[anas abou]

Keep in mind that a 7:3 in Smash 4 is a bit less severe than a 7:3 in Melee or Brawl.

3/7 is the same seveity in all games, it means one character wins 3 times out of 10, and the other 7 time out of 10.

 

[EternalFlare]

Peach has an excellent pressure game, no doubt. Unfortunately she has little opportunity to capitaliza on the pressure she exerts because her mobility is not the best and most of it is exerted from the air, meaning that shields directly counter the attempts. If you try to counter Peach poking your shield with down air, you're going to be frustrated at your failed attempts, but if just roll away after the last down air hit box and reset to neutral all of her pressure is gone. Peach's unique angles would be a lot more threatening if she was faster, or if forward air was larger or faster, but she doesn't have the specs to make it work against an opponent who keeps their cool and knows the answers to the situations Peach poses.

Yes, she has mild disjoints on some moves, but they are hardly notable in the grand scheme of things. Meta Knight's sword is regarded as a butter knife yet it cleanly trumps virtually everything Peach attempts, either through frame data or hit box size. Most characters in this game with disjoints, of which there are a lot, have bitboxes much larger than Meta Knights.

She has stuff, I am just arguing its more cool and interesting than competitively useful since there are either clear answers to the stuff she has or its inferior and loses to the stuff of better characters in most cases.



Falco is okay. Jigglypuff is horrid.

Exactly. Even when Peach exits death combo percents without dying MK still wins the matchup with his superior mobility, disjoints and terrific anti-airs against floats.

Plus even without early kill confirms, his regular kill power in the matchup is still superior to Peach. Only Peach's fair will kill at a decent percents and in the set you saw Samsora getting MK to high percents, then sometimes struggling to finish off rage MK. And then would eat a random confirm into up B and die earlier.

 

[Ulevo]

1. It's not garenteed and peach has more ways to deal with it.

Meta Knight's ladder is not guaranteed on Peach?

If this is what you are claiming, I am interested to hear your explanation.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

First of all you can ledge camp/stay near the ledge in Melee and Brawl as well. In fact in those games you get infinite regrab ledge invincibility making "planking" far safer than it is in Smash 4. Running away isn't something exclusive to Smash 4 and it's laughable if that's what's being used to justify terrible matchups.

Secondly Samsora DID try to stay by the ledge at low percents in some of those games. It wasn't effective because Abadango eventually got in anyway often at the correct side (not offstage) so he could still go for the up B kills safely.

Thirdly, perhaps importantly at all, what's stopping MK from out camping Peach? He has the mobility and jumps to do it and as previously mentioned Peach can't chase. He doesn't HAVE to approach if Peach is by the ledge at all. He can take a small lead (doesn't have to go for a kill confirm and it it's easy if Peach has already cornered herself and limited her options) and then run away the rest of the game himself. Then Peach is forced to approach and leave herself open to death confirms or lose by time out.

There is a ledge grab limit in brawl and being by the ledge didn't help you much of at all.

 

[jet56]

Been seeing a bit of talk about 3:7 MU's and Mac having a few. Something important to point out is that Mac is already a volatile character, and the stage he is on makes him even more volatile. For example, Pacman in my opinion is a 3:7 on most legal stages, 45:55 for mac on T&C, and 50:50 on FD. Seriously, Little Mac has different MU charts depending on the stage he's on, he is one of those characters heavily affected, if not the most affected, by stage CP. Imagine if Omega Stages replaced Duck hunt on the legal stage list (which would be nice, bias here, but will likely never happen), Little Mac's viability would go way up.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Hearing everyone talk about the MK ladder and how it just shuts down most floaties...It's crazy to think that this combo used to literally work on the whole cast. Just let that sink in. Sometimes I forget how much of a mess this game was before 1.1.5.

 

[EternalFlare]

There is a ledge grab limit in brawl and being by the ledge didn't help you much of at all.

That's true but the LGL was around 50 iirc for everyone except MK (which was 35). That can help shave off crucial minutes off the clock if you really wanted to timeout someone.

Being by the ledge wouldn't let you avoid most infinites in Brawl but playing ultra defensive and running away in general would while utilizing platforms. That's not too different from what is being suggested for Peach vs MK in S4.

Either way, considering MK can run away as well, it doesn't solve the matchup for Peach if MK is willing to outlame her.

Been seeing a bit of talk about 3:7 MU's and Mac having a few. Something important to point out is that Mac is already a volatile character, and the stage he is on makes him even more volatile. For example, Pacman in my opinion is a 3:7 on most legal stages, 45:55 for mac on T&C, and 50:50 on FD. Seriously, Little Mac has different MU charts depending on the stage he's on, he is one of those characters heavily affected, if not the most affected, by stage CP. Imagine if Omega Stages replaced Duck hunt on the legal stage list (which would be nice, bias here, but will likely never happen), Little Mac's viability would go way up.

Little Mac in general would no doubt be a much better character if FD was the only legal stage. Possibly even top 15.

But considering bans and stage striking in tournament play, it's pretty much irrelevant outside of For Glory. Sometimes I'll play For Glory and occasionally run into a decent Little Mac and start thinking the character is extremely scary. Then I'll remember in tournament play I'd just ban FD versus him cutting his effectiveness immensely.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Hey! I wanted to discuss who you guys think a good counterpick to Cloud would actually be? I personally do not enjoy Cloud dittos and want a different character to play it out. But I also want to talk about Cloud matchup spread in general. (I dont think ease of play should be much of a factor for a secondary..atleast for this discussion)

Note when I say counter pick I do not mean that they necessarily beat Cloud. But go even with him or can even have a 55:45 with him. Both are basically skill dependent so it works out well

If you guys want a list of Clouds weaknesses to apply to characters I made a post a while back on it..I may have forgotten like a thing or two so its alittle outdated? But still good. http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-552#post-21337301

Discussion..start!

 

[jet56]

The point i wanted to make is that it is hard to put a number on little mac's mu's, because of how the could change based on stage, and how little mac functions as a character. It's also super dependent on the mac player and how well he's playing. This character is literally the smash 4 glass cannon. It's why he's a mid tier.

 

[my_T]

3 aerials?
I count Bair and Dair. What else is safe?

Unless I'm missing something, Nair's awful horizontal range often gets you grabbed OoS (even if it does AC pretty early) and even a spaced Fair is dash grabable. He often has to commit to every aerial he uses.

Bair and FULL HOP Dair are safe.

He would be significantly better with some hitbox adjustments. I was playing the other day and Dark Pits nair was beaten by Marios bair. Was salty af

 

[EternalFlare]

Hey! I wanted to discuss who you guys think a good counterpick to Cloud would actually be? I personally do not enjoy Cloud dittos and want a different character to play it out. But I also want to talk about Cloud matchup spread in general. (I dont think ease of play should be much of a factor for a secondary..atleast for this discussion)

Note when I say counter pick I do not mean that they necessarily beat Cloud. But go even with him or can even have a 55:45 with him. Both are basically skill dependent so it works out well

If you guys want a list of Clouds weaknesses to apply to characters I made a post a while back on it..I may have forgotten like a thing or two so its alittle outdated? But still good. http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-552#post-21337301

Discussion..start!

From what I understand Sheik is probably Cloud's worst matchup and it's not particularly terrible.

Sheik can contend with Cloud in neutral which is rare for any character. She has some of the best edge guarding which combined with Cloud's very gimpable recovery is a huge plus.

But if Sheik can't get those gimps off, it can be rough, she's light and will die really early to Cloud's very reliable kill power while she lacks raw kill power herself.

I'd say it's no worse than 60-40. Not really a counterpick but as good as you'll likely get.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

What's everyone's opinion on the Dedede vs. Cloud match up?

Spoiler

Its the worst match up I have ever played in this game good god it isn't fun at all.

 

[EternalFlare]

Regarding Marth's solo viability, does the character really have any 7-3 matchups?

It seems he goes even with or only slightly loses to all top tiers giving him a great matchup spread overall.

Given his recent results and matchup spread I don't think it'd be a stretch to put him in top 15 or even top 12 at this point.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Counterpicking Cloud is actually extremely difficult because the characters that do the best vs him are hard as hell to use. Marthcina is the easiest option.

 

[Key313]

If you try to counter Peach poking your shield with down air, you're going to be frustrated at your failed attempts, but if just roll away after the last down air hit box and reset to neutral all of her pressure is gone.

The thing about floating dair is that she can cover the roll as you can act out of it extremely quick and can move during the entire thing so it's not so simple to reset the situation. 8 frames between the last hit and when she can act. The last hit doesn't even have to connect as she can move to where you are going to go if you have planned to roll. A roll takes 26 frames for the quickest. Dair hits on frame 12 if you were to go for another while chasing the roll. Should be able to catch em all unless I'm missing something. Of course if you can roll both ways then there is the option to get out.

Samsora was also landing a ton of tomahawks on those who just hold shield expecting the dair. Would have been more even if he was facing the right way. Part of why her pressure is good.

 

[EternalFlare]

Counterpicking Cloud is actually extremely difficult because the characters that do the best vs him are hard as hell to use. Marthcina is the easiest option.

Eh I don't know about that.

The only thing that makes Sheik hard to use is lack of reliable kill power + rage which is remedied by the fact that in this matchup you're mainly looking for gimps. As long as you have strong Smash fundamentals, Sheik is far from a difficult character to play overall, she outneutrals most characters easily enough and has possibly the easiest recovery in the game.

Then there's Diddy. I wouldn't say he beats Cloud but the matchup is likely no worse than even and he's not a hard character to play either, in fact I'd argue he's probably the easiest top tier to play (yes including Cloud).

I guess there's Megaman who arguably beats Cloud AND is in fact quite difficult to use. But I can't think of any other examples. And I'm not sure if Megaman actually beats Cloud or M2K just stuggles at the matchup (he's lost to Scatt like 3 times). On paper it doesn't seem that bad.

 

[Jehtt]

weekend results

Spoiler: Clutch City Clash (August 6th-7th) (South) (241 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Abadango ,
2nd: Samsora ,
3rd: Ally
4th: Trevonte
5th: Mew2King
5th: CaptainZack
7th: DJ Fliphop
7th: ScAtt
9th: Megafox
9th: 6WX
9th: P2P With Gibus
9th: TheReflexWonder
13th: BC
13th: Illusion
13th: LordMix
13th: Brawlman1000

Spoiler: Rebirth VIII (August 6th) (Midwest) (176 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Ryuga
4th: Rayquaza07 ,
5th: MJG
5th: Ned ,
7th: LOE1
7th: DarkShad
9th: Sethsational
9th: Blacktwins
9th: Nero
9th: Chris
13th: Cyco
13th: A-Fin
13th: Smasher1001 ,
13th: Colinies

Spoiler: Don’t You Dair 2 (August 7th) (Northern California) (105 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ito
2nd: Mudomo
3rd: FuTure
4th: Rice ,
5th: Sean
5th: Sinister
7th: Zex
7th: Nabster
9th: Haystack
9th: Jodi Bleek
9th: Kesa
9th: Three
13th: Hitaku
13th: Iron Gonzales
13th: Mr. Peabody
13th: Sks

Spoiler: GUMS 09 (August 7th) (New England) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pugwest
2nd: Craftis
3rd: MattyG ,
4th: Marss
5th: LingLing
5th: Light
7th: Glare
7th: BelaC
9th: Hero
9th: IceArrow
9th: Dark Wizzy
9th: XL-XCVll
13th: Siccarius
13th: DJ Delta
13th: Red Beef Baron
13th: Mr. Freeze

Updated map;

Re-added the Rocky Mountains region due to the attendees list from Revelation in CO taking heavily from CO, UT, and WY, removed Utah ad CO from Southwest, extended Southwest deeper into Texas.

may split the Midwest into 2 regions eventually like I did with Florida/Southeast but for now I think it works

Your standings for Don't You Dair 2 are incorrect. Rice got 2nd and Mudomo got 4th, you have it backwards.

 

[Ulevo]

Hearing everyone talk about the MK ladder and how it just shuts down most floaties...It's crazy to think that this combo used to literally work on the whole cast. Just let that sink in. Sometimes I forget how much of a mess this game was before 1.1.5.

It was overrated and highly misunderstood. For example if you wanted to do it versus Zero Suit Samus with the sweet spot of dash attack, it only worked guaranteed at 38% with no rage. If she was at 39% or higher she could DI straight in and Meta Knight would send her too high to get enough up airs before she could air dodge out. If she was at 37% or lower, she could DI away and get out every time. The only variance to this was if you sweet spotted the Shuttle Loop, but if you held in during that it would typically wiff and was a 50/50 anyway.

This was not a unique example, this was typical across the cast. People would just assume that DIing away every time was the best thing to do or they would DI in at the wrong times and it gave us free kills when it should not have worked.

It's funny because the characters that it always works on at a wide array of percents (Peach) never received help from the nerfs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, I wouldn't really say that Pit is "meh" at everything.

He has some very obvious strengths (frame data, damage racking, edgeguarding, mobility), and I think they clearly outweigh his weaknesses (dismal KO ability, abusable recovery).

I still don't even think Pit's recovery is that exploitable... Earth still basically flys back the same way every time even though he eats a lot of **** for it. Dude isn't learning.

Add garbage hitboxes on several of Pit's key moves to his flaws. And unsafe as all hell on block aside from 3 aerials.

Too bad he doesn't have ginormous hitboxes that extend past the swords on other important moves, or a great grab game... Oh, wait.

3 aerials?
I count Bair and Dair. What else is safe?

Unless I'm missing something, Nair's awful horizontal range often gets you grabbed OoS (even if it does AC pretty early) and even a spaced Fair is dash grabable. He often has to commit to every aerial he uses.

Pretty sure Pit can grab you before you grab him. Have to check the math again, been a while... Crossing up is also an extremely good option, especially with RAR. Turning around before shielding doesn't accomplish much because Pit can easily react to the direction that you're facing while Nair is repeatedly hitting the shield.

Bair and FULL HOP Dair are safe.

He would be significantly better with some hitbox adjustments. I was playing the other day and Dark Pits nair was beaten by Marios bair. Was salty af

Why are you using Nair to try and beat out Mario's Bair? It's like complaining Mario Nair doesn't beat Mario Bair...

 

[Y2Kay]

The Pit discussion we had earlier on never rubbed me the right way.

There was a whole lot of talk about hoow the character was boring, mediocre and irrelevant.

And then Earth get's 9th at EVO, nearly eliminating Kamemushi. Go figure.

Earth has always been bringing really good results with the character. And he doesn't necessarily carry them either, Kuro and Paiserman both have gotten good placings with him too.

For some reason people think Pit's "balanced" nature is a weakness and not a strength.

 

[blackghost]

I'm aware of Melee's terrible matchups being a Sheik player in it, I know my character invalidates most low-mid tiers. Most grapplers in Street Fighter have historically had a few 7-3s.

But Smash 4 has a lot more than 4 terrible matchups .

What you saw MK doing here is not exclusive to Peach. He can also do it to Rosa and GnW and possible a few others who are floaty with big hurtboxes.

Villager versus Ryu I'd also argue is 7-3. Villager has no reason to ever be near enough to get caught by tilt TSRK confirms or in general by Ryu's slow and telegraphed moves. And then once he's offstage it's curtains. Villager has everything he needs to constantly gimp him.

Little Mac versus a few characters is also probably 7-3 or worse like Peach and Pacman.

Ganon no doubt has several 7-3s.

.

please tell me any other 7-3 matchups in smash 4. i doubt any actually are.
not sure mk can do it to g and w as easily because he may be able to up b out. what are the other chaarcters mk does this too?
street fighter grapplers in newer games dont have many 7-3 especially in newer games.
villager ryu isnt 7-3.
lil mac pac man isnt 7-3 either.
ganon"several 7-3" gonna need some examples.

 

[williamsga555]

dakotaisgreat

Pretty clearly in Cloud's favor, but I don't think it's that horrendous for D3 (at least, not compared to most of the other Top tiers, anyway). To stand a chance you really have to know how to abuse Cloud's recovery + getup options.

On stage, Cloud has two main options for neutral, and both are largely free and effective: limit camp or SH nair. AC dair is a tad risky against D3 since f-tilt outranges it. Otherwise, it's really hard for D3 to counteract SH Nair unless it's spaced poorly. Limit camping works well because D3's approach options are garbage.

Meanwhile, the only things Cloud has to be mindful of on-stage against D3 are bair and Cloud's own spacing. Bair out-ranges most of Cloud's kit, but it's slow, telegraphed, and has a very specific zone that it threatens. In other words, Cloud can play around it pretty effectively. Cloud doesn't want to make any spacing errors because he'll eat a large punish if he ever allows a shieldgrab to happen (but that's obviously nothing unique about the D3 matchup in particular).

Off-stage is a different story...at least at the moment, anyway. Cloud will blow up D3 for free once his playerbase actually starts using Limit Blade Beam into the ledge to catch his 2-frame. Until that happens, he can't do much against D3's recovery, and the threat of up-air sharking hinders his ledge coverage a small amount. SH nair will still eat up almost anything D3 wants to do to get back up, though.

Meanwhile, D3 shines in the edgeguarding department, so if he manages to get Cloud off-stage, he must capitalize on it while the opportunity is there. Bair, run-off-fair, f-tilt beyond the ledge, and gordo setups are all effective against cloud (run-off-fair is the least effective, as you have to beat out the startup of Climhazzard). Cloud also can't snap from above for free because up-air beats out Climhazzard's descending hitbox.

So yeah, it's definitely a winning matchup for Cloud. D3 can manage, at least for the time being, because he can absolutely blow up Cloud once he gets in advantage. The problem is that it's really easy for Cloud to avoid losing neutral because of how safe SH nair is in this particular matchup. If D3 had a better means of contesting that particular approach, I'd say the matchup would be much closer to even (though still ultimately in Cloud's favor). Alas.

 

[Ethan7]

This is all I can find from "Don't You Dair #2": challonge.com/dyd2singles. Were did you find the results, Das Koopa ? Jehtt said what you put up was slightly incorrect.

 

[EternalFlare]

please tell me any other 7-3 matchups in smash 4. i doubt any actually are.
not sure mk can do it to g and w as easily because he may be able to up b out. what are the other chaarcters mk does this too?
street fighter grapplers in newer games dont have many 7-3 especially in newer games.
villager ryu isnt 7-3.
lil mac pac man isnt 7-3 either.
ganon"several 7-3" gonna need some examples.

Sagat vs Gief has been 7-3 all the way through SF4. Gief is considered low tier in SF5 so that's a moot point, he's bound to have several difficult matchups.

Go watch Leo vs Regi, that should be more than enough proof of how bad the matchup is for GnW (MK's death combos do in fact work on him, he can't up B out in time). Rosalina is another character they work on.

I've given reasons why Villager vs Ryu is 7-3 and others have given reasons why Pac/Mac is 7-3. You can't say it's not the case without refuting those reasons, otherwise you are disagreeing for no logical reason.

Ganon has some decent frame data on some moves but also has some of the worst mobility in the game and a terrible disadvantaged state both in terms of landing options and recovery. If you think a character like that won't have 7-3 matchups I don't know what to tell you. But for sake of argument let's go with Rosalina and Cloud for instance, the reasons should be self-explanatory.

But in case they aren't. Ganon can't get in on these characters, their mobility and range is too good. They also have the best up airs in the game for juggling. Now combine this with Ganon having the worst landing options. That alone makes it 7-3 but that's not all.

They are both above average at aggressive edge guarding offstage as well and any character who's semi-decent at this gives Ganon trouble. Cloud can literally LCS both of Ganon's recoveries on reaction, Rosa can do the same with Luma's dair.

So really, calling these matchups only 7-3 is being rather generous.

 

[Ffamran]

It was overrated and highly misunderstood. For example if you wanted to do it versus Zero Suit Samus with the sweet spot of dash attack, it only worked guaranteed at 38% with no rage. If she was at 39% or higher she could DI straight in and Meta Knight would send her too high to get enough up airs before she could air dodge out. If she was at 37% or lower, she could DI away and get out every time. The only variance to this was if you sweet spotted the Shuttle Loop, but if you held in during that it would typically wiff and was a 50/50 anyway.

This was not a unique example, this was typical across the cast. People would just assume that DIing away every time was the best thing to do or they would DI in at the wrong times and it gave us free kills when it should not have worked.

It's funny because the characters that it always works on at a wide array of percents (Peach) never received help from the nerfs.

Quick question / nitpick: which sweet-spot or rather, what sweet-spot? Do you mean the high 80 degree hit angle on Meta Knight's dash attack that seems to be attached to the 5% hitbox or the 2 6% hitboxes on his dash attack that have lower hit angles at 60 and 70 degrees?

Too bad he doesn't have ginormous hitboxes that extend past the swords on other important moves, or a great grab game... Oh, wait.

On what moves? Outside of Utilt which doesn't use a weapon, I see none in their hitbox thread. With the way their active frames and hitboxes are done, it seems like their hitboxes are placed after the swing suggesting they're swinging really fast which mirrors how Meta Knight attacks and how his hitboxes are placed. 1 active frame hitboxes on hits that follow their attack not hitboxes that are severely disjointed like Captain Falcon's Up Smash and Side Smash or Falco's Dtilt and Fair. If the Pits had those kind of disjoints, then we would really be questioning why people are so stupid to not use them when they basically have invisible hitboxes. Anyway, some of the Pits' moves even have hitboxes placed slightly too far in meaning they don't even reach their blade length.

Why are you using Nair to try and beat out Mario's Bair? It's like complaining Mario Nair doesn't beat Mario Bair...

Because Pit's spinning two blades around him? People would expect what is a spinning saw to eviscerate Mario's leg if not body since Mario's not exactly a tall guy. The animation of the Pits' Nair would lead many to think its hitboxes are like Cloud, Corrin, Ike, Palutena, or Shulk's Nair where the hitboxes are attached to their weapon and rotates around. Instead, what the Pits get are hitboxes like Mewtwo Nair's. Even if it's close-ranged, it would seem like the Pits would be surrounding themselves with hitboxes and the front hit looks like it's placed far enough from their body they could easily hit a hurtbox without putting their hurtbox in danger, but that's not the case because the developers decided small static hitboxes should be used.

 

[Ulevo]

Quick question / nitpick: which sweet-spot or rather, what sweet-spot? Do you mean the high 80 degree hit angle on Meta Knight's dash attack that seems to be attached to the 5% hitbox or the 2 6% hitboxes on his dash attack that have lower hit angles at 60 and 70 degrees?

Sweet spot, or dash attack 1, is the hitbox that does 6% and send the opponent the most horizontally. Sour spot, or dash attack 3, is the hitbox that does 5% and sends the most vertical. Dash attack 2 is the one that does 6% and is in the middle of the moves duration, which is rarely considered because deliberately hitting with this hitbox is difficult and not practical to do.

The other confirms that worked were up tilt 2 (sour spot or hilt) and forward throw out of a dash grab. It is worth noting that most of these also never worked properly if the opponent DI'd the initial confirm, as the % varied not just between confirms but whether or not the confirms were DI'd or not. It works that way now too.

 

[Nobie]

Looks like this thread's very own @Ghostbone has played the MK vs Peach match-up vs Umeki:

So I'd like to ask Ghost if he has any input on the match-up in terms of how even it is or isn't.

 

[Nu~]

The Pit discussion we had earlier on never rubbed me the right way.

There was a whole lot of talk about hoow the character was boring, mediocre and irrelevant.

And then Earth get's 9th at EVO, nearly eliminating Kamemushi. Go figure.

Earth has always been bringing really good results with the character. And he doesn't necessarily carry them either, Kuro and Paiserman both have gotten good placings with him too.

For some reason people think Pit's "balanced" nature is a weakness and not a strength.

Don't see why it can't be both.

He's like a Swiss Army knife of K-Mart tier tools. You have a tool for every situation, but the fact that no tool is all that great means you tend to have trouble against more powerful characters.
It's for this reason that he tends to go even with almost everyone. For some, like LancerStaff , that means he's a high tier character.

But for others, that drops pit straight into the mess that is mid tier. Why, you may ask?
The tier was made for him. Not all that great, but not awful either.


If you're looking for high versatility in a character, you can put that work into sheik or Mewtwo. Characters who also have tools for every situation, but the difference is that their tools are actually TERRIFYING.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Megaman vs Ryu isn't 7/3, no way Villager is.

lol. Nonsense.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ghost respected float wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. So many opportunities to shop uair/jc usmash Umeki out of float.

 

[Das Koopa]

This is all I can find from "Don't You Dair #2": challonge.com/dyd2singles. Were did you find the results, Das Koopa ? Jehtt said what you put up was slightly incorrect.

On smash.gg: https://smash.gg/tournament/competeleague-presents-don-t-you-dair-2/brackets/14700/57117/186347

I simply made an error when I typed it up. Thanks to Jehtt for pointing it out.

 

[LancerStaff]

On what moves? Outside of Utilt which doesn't use a weapon, I see none in their hitbox thread. With the way their active frames and hitboxes are done, it seems like their hitboxes are placed after the swing suggesting they're swinging really fast which mirrors how Meta Knight attacks and how his hitboxes are placed. 1 active frame hitboxes on hits that follow their attack not hitboxes that are severely disjointed like Captain Falcon's Up Smash and Side Smash or Falco's Dtilt and Fair. If the Pits had those kind of disjoints, then we would really be questioning why people are so stupid to not use them when they basically have invisible hitboxes. Anyway, some of the Pits' moves even have hitboxes placed slightly too far in meaning they don't even reach their blade length.


Because Pit's spinning two blades around him? People would expect what is a spinning saw to eviscerate Mario's leg if not body since Mario's not exactly a tall guy. The animation of the Pits' Nair would lead many to think its hitboxes are like Cloud, Corrin, Ike, Palutena, or Shulk's Nair where the hitboxes are attached to their weapon and rotates around. Instead, what the Pits get are hitboxes like Mewtwo Nair's. Even if it's close-ranged, it would seem like the Pits would be surrounding themselves with hitboxes and the front hit looks like it's placed far enough from their body they could easily hit a hurtbox without putting their hurtbox in danger, but that's not the case because the developers decided small static hitboxes should be used.

DA's hitboxes are as if he's holding a sword in front of him rather then swinging and extend past the blade even when it's fully extended. This can give the illusion of a body hitbox when he stops. Uair extends up past the blades, Nair extends outwards diagonally (which is usually how you'd use the move besides against shields), and a few others... Can't check on a potato, but you're definitely missing a few.

One would expect spinning blades to always beat arms, legs, and other appendages buuuut Nair would be pretty broke if it did. Even if the hitboxes lined up perfectly it'd still lose to Mario Bair because of how Smash works. Even if it were even it'd be a terrible trade because all but the last hit does 0.8%.

Don't see why it can't be both.

He's like a Swiss Army knife of K-Mart tier tools. You have a tool for every situation, but the fact that no tool is all that great means you tend to have trouble against more powerful characters.
It's for this reason that he tends to go even with almost everyone. For some, like LancerStaff , that means he's a high tier character.

But for others, that drops pit straight into the mess that is mid tier. Why, you may ask?
The tier was made for him. Not all that great, but not awful either.


If you're looking for high versatility in a character, you can put that work into sheik or Mewtwo. Characters who also have tools for every situation, but the difference is that their tools are actually TERRIFYING.

No tool is that great... Well, no duh. Calling them Kmart tools is a stretch. Plenty of characters commonly seen as better then him would kill for a lot of his stuff. Uair, Dair, Usmash, Dsmash, Nspecial, DA, his jumps, walk, dodges, Jab... I'd ask if you've ever actually played the character but I know you have, so instead I'm just wondering if you remember any of it.

"Tier was made for him?" The heck does that mean?

Yeah, Sheik and Mewtwo are more scary then him. That's the point though. Unlike them, Pit can afford to take a hit or make a mistake. Since he's so floaty combos don't work nearly as well. A Mario Utilt chain should only ever be two max with SDI on reaction. He's heavier and doesn't take nearly as much damage. Mac's arguably the most imposing character on the roster but it almost doesn't matter because Bthrow > edgeguard can and often will end him below 50%.

 

[Yikarur]

Eh I don't know about that.

The only thing that makes Sheik hard to use is lack of reliable kill power + rage which is remedied by the fact that in this matchup you're mainly looking for gimps. As long as you have strong Smash fundamentals, Sheik is far from a difficult character to play overall, she outneutrals most characters easily enough and has possibly the easiest recovery in the game.

The thing that makes Sheik hard to use is the risk/reward Ratio you are carrying with you the whole game. While she outneutrals most characters easily she doesn't get a really siginificant reward out of it. You have to outneutral a lot while getting trades is always in the opponent's favor. Getting the kill can be really hard and exhausting while you are always scared that your opponent will kill you first which puts you at a strong disadvantage. Sheik is a really hard to use character and that should not be underestimated.

Then there's Diddy. I wouldn't say he beats Cloud but the matchup is likely no worse than even and he's not a hard character to play either, in fact I'd argue he's probably the easiest top tier to play (yes including Cloud).

This is the most rididulous claim I've read in a long time. Diddy is a very specific character that needs a lot of knowledge and is very hard to play optimally. If you are playing some kind of low level then yes Diddy might be super strong and easy to play but every standard Diddy thing is heavily punishable (sideBs, short hop fairs, recovery) and you get wrecked at higher level play pretty easily if your play is not close to optimal with Diddy Kong. Comparing him with Cloud is really ridiculous.
Cloud is by far the easiest character to play in the whole game by far. By developers intention. I hope no one will ever try to claim something else.

 

[EternalFlare]

The thing that makes Sheik hard to use is the risk/reward Ratio you are carrying with you the whole game. While she outneutrals most characters easily she doesn't get a really siginificant reward out of it. You have to outneutral a lot while getting trades is always in the opponent's favor. Getting the kill can be really hard and exhausting while you are always scared that your opponent will kill you first which puts you at a strong disadvantage. Sheik is a really hard to use character and that should not be underestimated.



This is the most rididulous claim I've read in a long time. Diddy is a very specific character that needs a lot of knowledge and is very hard to play optimally. If you are playing some kind of low level then yes Diddy might be super strong and easy to play but every standard Diddy thing is heavily punishable (sideBs, short hop fairs, recovery) and you get wrecked at higher level play pretty easily if your play is not close to optimal with Diddy Kong. Comparing him with Cloud is really ridiculous.
Cloud is by far the easiest character to play in the whole game by far. By developers intention. I hope no one will ever try to claim something else.

Yeah no.

I say that as a Diddy main who's actually honest about how good my character is which is a rarity apparently. Diddy is very easy to play at all levels compared to most of the cast, there's a reason he's the most successful tournament character. It's not like there's 1 Diddy Kong out there that gets results. There's also a reason why solo Cloud doesn't have any peak results at all (top 3 at a stacked major). If he was actually so good and easy to play, he'd have much better results at majors by now.

Diddy's disadvantage state is far superior to Clouds. Cloud gets gimped a lot easier than Diddy does (Diddy is definitely gimpable but it's much harder) and between B-reverses and side B, Diddy has much better landing options. With Cloud it's just a matter of him landing with a predictable aerial or not. So Cloud getting opened up is far more rough for him than it is for Diddy.

Then there's kill confirms. Cloud has none, he has to throw out moves hoping they will hit or wait for specific punish situations whereas Diddy has arguably the best kill confirms in the game. He doesn't have to hope or read. He throws out spaced dtilts which are fairly safe on block or bananas which are completely safe on block, waits for one to land and confirms into an easy kill. The only thing Cloud has that comes close to this is LCS which is safe on block but that requires meter and he gets one shot at it before having to recharge. Diddy can downtilt whenever he wants or pull out a banana during any small opening.

The only hard thing about Diddy really is if you struggle at using items. Get over that hurdle and the rest is so much easier than most characters.

And you are vastly underestimating how much having easily winnable neutral like Sheik matters. Doesn't get significant reward out of it? She gets stage control and decent damage, that's more than enough until she has to kill. More importantly, I said Cloud isn't so bad or her because her raw kill power doesn't matter as much, she'll be looking for gimps in the MU.

If Megaman vs Ryu isn't 7/3, no way Villager is.

lol. Nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUMU6871iAs

Once Ryu is offstage vs Villager the stock is basically gone unless he messes up. Villager also has no reason to ever be near enough Ryu to get hit by his confirms. Tell me how that's not a 7-3 matchup. In this example, game 2 Trela was offstage at like 20 percent and then despite winning the entire match (surprisingly), he proceeded to get systematically gimped.

 

[ReRaze]

3 aerials?
I count Bair and Dair. What else is safe?

Unless I'm missing something, Nair's awful horizontal range often gets you grabbed OoS (even if it does AC pretty early) and even a spaced Fair is dash grabable. He often has to commit to every aerial he uses.

Pit's moves that are safe on shield.

Dsmash second hit (spaced) -6
Fair last hit autocancel -8 (spaced) -9
Bair (spaced) -5
Dair (spaced) -10.
Nair last hit autocancel (spaced) +5 up close -2 (can spot dodge or roll to avoid the grab)

Don't see why it can't be both.

He's like a Swiss Army knife of K-Mart tier tools. You have a tool for every situation, but the fact that no tool is all that great means you tend to have trouble against more powerful characters.
It's for this reason that he tends to go even with almost everyone. For some, like LancerStaff , that means he's a high tier character.

But for others, that drops pit straight into the mess that is mid tier. Why, you may ask?
The tier was made for him. Not all that great, but not awful either.


If you're looking for high versatility in a character, you can put that work into sheik or Mewtwo. Characters who also have tools for every situation, but the difference is that their tools are actually TERRIFYING.

See that's the problem when you talk about characters you dont main without doing proper research, you think of things in a vacuum or just straight up spread misinfo (no you can't dash grab fair or nair if the pit is using them right).

You haven't addressed Sheik and Mewtwo's cons or Pit's pros. Pit's got a fantastic juggle game much better than either of them. he's heavier than either of them and though he can't kill as well as Mewtwo it's definitely better than Shiek. Mewtwo's combos are scary but he's got nothing particularly scary on shield until kill percents neither his grabs nor confusion lead into anything reliably apart from raw damage Pit has ways to rack up damage fast and reliably against shield due to his great grab game which do much more damage than Mewtwo's confusions or grabs.
Shiek and Mewtwo are NOT just straight upgrades of Pit such that if I were looking for a versatile character I should just pick them over him. They are definitely better than him but he still has his own perks over them

And What's wrong with being a swiss army knife? Doesn't matter if other characters have massive swords, if I stab you with a knife it'll still hurt like hell and depending on how I use it you can still die ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
just because his moves aren't as good or overtuned doesn't mean they are bad, they have their uses and another pro of being a "swiss army knife" is unlike most other characters above hime none of his MU's are particularly volatile, he can deal with everyone fairly well, I don't have to worry about someone going MK vs my Rosa or whatever. I can rest easy knowing that my tools though not as scary are still capable of dealing with every situation and in the hands of a smart player that can be great. I mean just look at Earth, the man is keeping up with top players all around his own skill level using characters supposedly far better than his own.