Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

Bayonneta is feasibly still top 5.
A very dominant toolset, very functional mobility despite it's shortfalls.
Only ultimately lost 1 thing from the nerfs, down side-b giving free get away and heavy/potential death combos - she didn't need it. Still was likely one of the single best moves to ever exist in a smash game.
Oh and steeper precision/move choices necessary to still get 30-40% combos, necessitating very high level play to maintain the damage output.

<Cue "BUT SDI" wifi warriors>

Anybody can preemptively SDI away from her after hitting her shield and get away from Witch Twist if she uses it or simply get out of the way if she doesn't, with the same controller movement.

That's pretty big, no? To say she really only had one thing nerfed isn't exactly true, and even then her previous results were almost exclusively because of that one move, ATBK.

Fox's also has low enough knockback to do other moves and keep the pressure going at low %s, at high %s is a free fly to the air, and Fox loves having people in the air and destroy airdodges/landings. Wario's 2 frames for free, chip damage is always welcomed. Regardless of condition, it trips 100%. Tripping is ALWAYS advantageous, it gets easy grabs or another dash attack (more damage). GnW's is a clutch killer with rage as well.

I get that... I said Pit's was probably better then Wario's, not Fox's. Wario's DA is especially good for Wario because it's hard for him to get his fat behind over to the ledge, and having an easy option to 2-frame from a dash makes up for it. But with other characters who can get into position easier it's not as valuable because they have much stronger 2-frame options then Wario's 4%.

 

[Shaya]

How can you be so sure?
She still has insane damage output, a truly infallible recovery (I think Sheik/ZSS are easier to harass and capitalize on, Sheik less so), it's very difficult to escape disadvantage state against her, it's rinse and repeat washing machine status for most of the cast, a lot of her moveset is implicitly safe, she is overloaded with options and that versatility is only going to be expanded upon over time.

Nothing seems like an actual bad match up, her neutral isn't "free" (although IMO it's better than ZSS), but everything else is straight up amazing.

Anybody can preemptively SDI away from her after hitting her shield and get away from Witch Twist if she uses it or simply get out of the way if she doesn't, with the same controller movement.

That's pretty big, no? To say she really only had one thing nerfed isn't exactly true, and even then her previous results were almost exclusively because of that one move, ATBK.

It's a pretty big thing, but we're seeing variation in timing and other nuances that make preemptive SDI (which is definitely a reasonable thing to say is a "counter" to some of her combo starters) not as hype as people make out.
What if they don't up-b, do they need to up-b every time? Can't they just catch you out awkwardly with it and still get the same combo? Can't they mix up dashing through you or starting it in front of you?

somethingsomething
"high level (3 step or further ahead) options" have only just begun in Smash4
somethingsomething

Not to say she's definitely top 5.. but she's still... really... really.. good.

 

[thehard]

somethingsomething
"high level (3 step or further ahead) options" have only just begun in Smash4
somethingsomething

Examples please, I love this kind of talk

I get that vibe from how top players respond to a Diddy trying to escape disadvantage in the air nowadays (in regards to reading the side-b + popgun b-reverse stuff). I swear they fell for it for an entire year.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tbh what I think sets Bayonetta apart from other potential top tiers is her disadvantage state. Sheik and MK are often said to have strong disadvantages, Greninja can hit you mid combo occasionally, Pikachu can land anywhere on the stage, etc, but Bayonetta? Her disadvantage is like an extension of her neutral. She can break out with a frame 4 up b that combos into a **** load of things, shes got a frame 1 airdodge, land with up air/nair/dair, a flying kick to escape disadvantage in 4 different directions, a great recovery, and can punish overextensions with Witch Time

Her mobility on the other hand isn't the best compared to the other potential top tiers. Her run speed is average, her walk is slow, and her air speed is poor. What saves her from having bad mobility is ABK. Again, half way across the stage with a good sized hitbox that can launch and combo into things. Her grab game is poor though and that hurts her neutral along with her lack of range outside of bair/bullet climax and meh cqc compared to other top tiers.

Her advantage state is good, not broken kill you at 50 bull**** anymore, but not bad. When people learn to consistently SDI out of her combos, she'll barely be a threat, but that won't happen for a while. People are barely using SDI as it is. Actually there's a lot of things players could be doing more often to improve their game but that's another long subject that I don't really want to go into.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Actually there's a lot of things players could be doing more often to improve their game but that's another long subject that I don't really want to go into.

I really would like to, honestly. 5 things that I see really separate a mid level from a high/top level player are the strengths of:
1. Edgeguarding.
2. Ledge trapping.
3. Disadvantage IN GENERAL. Techs, spotdodges, rolls(defensive ones), defensive jabs, playing anti-grab/keepaway, options off the ledge, landing options, etc.
4. Confidence
5. Character control/comfortability(really easy to tell when someone isn't comfortable with a character).

 

[LancerStaff]

It's a pretty big thing, but we're seeing variation in timing and other nuances that make preemptive SDI (which is definitely a reasonable thing to say is a "counter" to some of her combo starters) not as hype as people make out.

To be honest I don't see people attempting much counter play at all, especially against her... Even relatively common knowledge on here and the SSB reddit like Lucas's Nair being SDI fodder or how to deal with Clamhazard when used above the ledge is completely unknown by decent players. I'm half expecting somebody like ESAM to find some dumb strat with a gigantic hole in it and take a tournament with it because everybody was too lazy to look it up.

That said I'd expect her to be winning a lot more because people refuse to learn or study.

 

[Shaya]

Examples please, I love this kind of talk

I get that vibe from how top players respond to a Diddy trying to escape disadvantage in the air nowadays (in regards to reading the side-b + popgun b-reverse stuff). I swear they fell for it for an entire year.

Well, Diddy kinda takes the cake in multilayered options. Aerial Banana magic will keep us busy for years to come.
Disadvantage State Monkey Flip Is Going To Only Get Better.
It's not in my interests to talk about Diddy too much though.>,<

You have a combination of guaranteed set play situation (example landing opponent in neutral), movement/repositioning/defensive option for baiting/outspacing an action, movement/repositioning to take further control of the situation (/out do their counter option), then optimal move choice for maximising reward or conditioning your opponent, and the in between actions your opponent can do to further complicate it (plus reaction speed factors).

For a hyper-majority of players, it's "baiting" (generous terming) with a defensive option into an immediate punish attempt of likely generic or sub-optimal merit.

Sure Bayonetta could do an instant Up-B and then muscle memory combo attempt into "oh no they fell out, this character sucks, completely ruined thanks to Sakuwhy and top players are bad and need to l2play", but she doesn't need to, the opponent has close to zilch options (because they MUST respect it), just one option is obvious and will work if Bayonetta is equally as obvious.
Something something "Meta Knight" suffers this too, somehow it must be "players are bad" if MK combos them... give well practiced players some credit ...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I really would like to, honestly. 5 things that I see really separate a mid level from a high/top level player are the strengths of:
1. Edgeguarding.
2. Ledge trapping.
3. Disadvantage IN GENERAL. Techs, spotdodges, rolls(defensive ones), defensive jabs, playing anti-grab/keepaway, options off the ledge, landing options, etc.
4. Confidence
5. Character control/comfortability(really easy to tell when someone isn't comfortable with a character).

If people actually worked on their edgeguarding outside of like 5 matchups then a lot of characters would go up in tiers. MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, DH, G&W, Charizard, DDD, Peach, Marcina, Shulk, Mewtwo and a lot more. Its a huge part of every other smash game that hasn't even begun to devlop in mid/high/top level play for smash 4 despite its obvious strengths. I feel like everyone just said "oh all the recoveries are broken and you cant edgehog, so its useless lmao. Time to go lab combos that I'm never going to get in an actual game". Even against a simple level 9 cpu you can practice edgeguarding the more simple recoveries.
Ledge trapping is in the same boat as edgeguarding and in a lot of ways is an extension of it

Disadvantage states are good in general in this game, the issue is most people boil it down to nothing but landing options and recoveries but there's so much more to it than just that. For instance, Little Mac is often said to have a bad disadvantage because he has a bad recovery and bad landing options. Now that may be true, but that doesn't mean his disadvantage as a whole is bad. He has some of the fastest rolls in the game, godlike grounded frame data only rivaled by Ryu and Sheik, and high mobility that is also underused outside of the occasional extended dash dance. He could play the defensive game and reset to neutral basically whenever hes on the ground but noooooo, instead hes going to just try and use up b for whatever reason

 

[blackghost]

Bayo top 5 is very questionable. I don't see what she has that would make her better than the lower top 5 contenders(Fox, Sonic, Mario, etc)

Mario, shiek, and Fox all have better mu charts and results.
bayo succeeds because this community refuses to learn sdi and continues to do unsafe strings/landing on her.
you shouldn't be getting hit with so much of her stuff (especially heel slide)

 

[FeelMeUp]

NAKAT almost proving me right and going 3-2 over VoiD with mostly Fox(VoiD's best MU, btw) but an SD at 39% in the last game cost him the set.
Sucks because he brought it all the way back on FD, the stage that makes that MU look absolutely horrible.

 

[juddy96]

Bayo actually has had a lot of her users achieve even better results post-nerf. Pink Fresh wins 2GGT, Captain Zack and JK have definitely gotten better results, while ikep and saj have continued with solid results too.

 

[Locke 06]

Characters with fundamentally strong tools will only get better as the game gets older.

Witch time will only become stronger as Bayo mains learn BnB follow-ups (see Ryu parry in SF5), disjoints get stronger as people learn to space better, advanced/exceptional movement tools get stronger as people are more precise with their baits...

This is how games grow.

 

[Fenny]

Bayo top 5 is very questionable. I don't see what she has that would make her better than the lower top 5 contenders(Fox, Sonic, Mario, etc)

Aye.

While Bayonetta's MU chart from my POV is pretty accurate imo she doesn't have any truly relevant 60:40 MUs since they're all rarely represented in top level play she goes even with basically every top tier.

I think she'll only get better as time goes on though, because there are still aspects of her that haven't been explored yet. I think she's amazing in any case.

 

[Ulevo]

I would make the case that Bayo is top 2. The exploitable weaknesses she has compared to her polarized rewards are very skewed in her favor. The SDI multiplier change only resulted in Bayonetta mains having to alternate their combos, which are still devastating. You can basically never edge guard her, juggle trap her, and catching her on whiff moves is very difficult because the balance team thought giving her those FAF with the hitboxes she has was a good idea. I think after the display Pink Fresh put on it would be rather obvious.

 

[Vyrnx]

I would make the case that Bayo is top 2. The exploitable weaknesses she has compared to her polarized rewards are very skewed in her favor. The SDI multiplier change only resulted in Bayonetta mains having to alternate their combos, which are still devastating. You can basically never edge guard her, juggle trap her, and catching her on whiff moves is very difficult because the balance team thought giving her those FAF with the hitboxes she has was a good idea. I think after the display Pink Fresh put on it would be rather obvious.

Do you mean it's obvious that the FAF plus hitboxes were a bad idea or obvious that she's top 2? If the latter then I don't think that's obvious.

I could see Bayo possibly being top 5, which is far from a certainty, but I don't think that she's clear cut better than Diddy, Sheik, or Mewtwo, who in my opinion, especially the former two but also potentially Mewtwo, have claims to being the best characters in the game.

Then there's falln who thinks Rosalina is number two, and the majority of smashers who put Fox and/or Mario top 5 and not without good reason. My point is that I can't see Bayonetta being anywhere close to consensus top 2, 5, or even ~8 for a good while unless something major happens.

And regardless of Bayo's, "top x," status, she is a very good character.

Edit: Despite her already top status, I also see Bayonetta as having some of the most potential to improve of any of the top tiers. Her moveset allows a lot more room for optimization as opposed to say, Diddy.

 

[blackghost]

bayo mains improved because this community (in general) acted like they were all carried (see zero video) and now they stepped Thier game up and the players that were waiting for a patch to fix her still have no idea how to combat her.
there areally a number of bayo players rising child, afro, bushi, ghost, nero, Jk, Captain zach.
she's definitely good and her biggest edge that overlooked is that she has no bad stage. her combo appraoch may slightly change but overall she can play one of her three styles on any stage. her three developing styles I see are full rushdownink, runaway/zoning: child, and witch time based fear: captain zach.

 

[Ulevo]

Do you mean it's obvious that the FAF plus hitboxes were a bad idea or obvious that she's top 2? If the latter then I don't think that's obvious.

I could see Bayo possibly being top 5, which is far from a certainty, but I don't think that she's clear cut better than Diddy, Sheik, or Mewtwo, who in my opinion, especially the former two but also potentially Mewtwo, have claims to being the best characters in the game.

Then there's falln who thinks Rosalina is number two, and the majority of smashers who put Fox and/or Mario top 5 and not without good reason. My point is that I can't see Bayonetta being anywhere close to consensus top 2, 5, or even ~8 for a good while unless something major happens.

And regardless of Bayo's, "top x," status, she is a very good character.

Edit: Despite her already top status, I also see Bayonetta as having some of the most potential to improve of any of the top tiers. Her moveset allows a lot more room for optimization as opposed to say, Diddy.

I meant the former being obvious.

 

[GeneralLedge]

bayo mains improved because this community (in general) acted like they were all carried (see zero video) and now they stepped Thier game up and the players that were waiting for a patch to fix her still have no idea how to combat her.

Kinda goes to show, people who are bad at the game are still bad at the game when a patch holds their hand.

I said back during "plz nerf" discussions and again now: Bayo has some really jarring parallels with Miis. There's still plenty who moan and groan about Mii Fighters any time they're brought up, and coincidentally have no idea how to fight Mii Fighters. Unsurprisingly, a refusal to learn means not learning.

I played around with Mii Sword the other day while I was waiting for a 10-minute "you lagged so hard a 5 minute match lasted 12" disconnect ban, and within my personal improvement with the game, Mii Sword isn't nearly as bad as he has ever gotten credit for. Even 50/50 flows rather well when spaced properly, Galestrike offers an interesting ledgeguard psyche-out combined with Counter for hitbox recoveries. Airborne Assault is still rather incredible, especially on Town and City where the platform can catch you on the opposite end of the stage. Stone Scabbard is still sort of junk, but it offers an interesting mixup tool out of downthrow (and unless your opponent reacts immediately while dodging it, they're hard pressed to punish it).

The biggest night/day in my personal case is, I've left the realm of "accidentally Fsmashing when I meant to tilt" and can actually control the character. And I'm morbidly curious how many players are still within that realm, still held back by their accidentals, and consider characters worse for them. It might explain Cloud's pedestal in low-level play, when his Fsmash is a scary shield-shredder and accidentally throwing it out doesn't often get punished... until you start expecting it and stay behind Cloud at all times.

This has been a bit of a nonsense ramble from me though.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I would make the case that Bayo is top 2.

Okay, please stop with the kneejerk overreactions. This is silly.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

tbh I don't agree with his matchup chart. Much like Esam charts, move everyone up. She loses to a lot more than just one character, MM losing to Bayonetta? I can't see that happening. Zard as a 65:35? Closer to even, maybe in Zard's favor. Mewtwo is even? Thats a horrible matchup for her, what are you talking about Pink?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If people actually worked on their edgeguarding outside of like 5 matchups then a lot of characters would go up in tiers. MK, Jigglypuff, Kirby, DH, G&W, Charizard, DDD, Peach, Marcina, Shulk, Mewtwo and a lot more. Its a huge part of every other smash game that hasn't even begun to devlop in mid/high/top level play for smash 4 despite its obvious strengths. I feel like everyone just said "oh all the recoveries are broken and you cant edgehog, so its useless lmao. Time to go lab combos that I'm never going to get in an actual game". Even against a simple level 9 cpu you can practice edgeguarding the more simple recoveries.
Ledge trapping is in the same boat as edgeguarding and in a lot of ways is an extension of it

Disadvantage states are good in general in this game, the issue is most people boil it down to nothing but landing options and recoveries but there's so much more to it than just that. For instance, Little Mac is often said to have a bad disadvantage because he has a bad recovery and bad landing options. Now that may be true, but that doesn't mean his disadvantage as a whole is bad. He has some of the fastest rolls in the game, godlike grounded frame data only rivaled by Ryu and Sheik, and high mobility that is also underused outside of the occasional extended dash dance. He could play the defensive game and reset to neutral basically whenever hes on the ground but noooooo, instead hes going to just try and use up b for whatever reason

Agreed that edgeguarding is a neglected aspect of the game right now. Too often I'll see players just wait at the ledge instead of doing anything offstage. It's like...I get that ledge traps are a powerful thing, but that's no reason to just let them get to the ledge itself for free, is it? I've gotten compliments on my edgeguarding at a local tournament before, which was a very warm and fuzzy feeling. (Rosalina's so good at it, seriously.)

Kinda goes to show, people who are bad at the game are still bad at the game when a patch holds their hand.

I said back during "plz nerf" discussions and again now: Bayo has some really jarring parallels with Miis. There's still plenty who moan and groan about Mii Fighters any time they're brought up, and coincidentally have no idea how to fight Mii Fighters. Unsurprisingly, a refusal to learn means not learning.

I played around with Mii Sword the other day while I was waiting for a 10-minute "you lagged so hard a 5 minute match lasted 12" disconnect ban, and within my personal improvement with the game, Mii Sword isn't nearly as bad as he has ever gotten credit for. Even 50/50 flows rather well when spaced properly, Galestrike offers an interesting ledgeguard psyche-out combined with Counter for hitbox recoveries. Airborne Assault is still rather incredible, especially on Town and City where the platform can catch you on the opposite end of the stage. Stone Scabbard is still sort of junk, but it offers an interesting mixup tool out of downthrow (and unless your opponent reacts immediately while dodging it, they're hard pressed to punish it).

The biggest night/day in my personal case is, I've left the realm of "accidentally Fsmashing when I meant to tilt" and can actually control the character. And I'm morbidly curious how many players are still within that realm, still held back by their accidentals, and consider characters worse for them. It might explain Cloud's pedestal in low-level play, when his Fsmash is a scary shield-shredder and accidentally throwing it out doesn't often get punished... until you start expecting it and stay behind Cloud at all times.

This has been a bit of a nonsense ramble from me though.

I have the opposite problem, where I'll try to do a smash (usually pivot fsmash) and get a tilt instead. It's usually not a huge deal since tilts are generally safer than smashes anyway, but it's still annoying when your character doesn't do the thing you want them to do.

 

[blackghost]

tbh I don't agree with his matchup chart. Much like Esam charts, move everyone up. She loses to a lot more than just one character, MM losing to Bayonetta? I can't see that happening. Zard as a 65:35? Closer to even, maybe in Zard's favor. Mewtwo is even? Thats a horrible matchup for her, what are you talking about Pink?

what makes zard even?
I think with mm pink is saying getting in once or twice is easier than keeping bayo out all game.
mewtwo isn't horrible. it's really annoying but I don't see how it's horrible.
I'm confused on his tink placement and Mario tho.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik MU is worse than he's saying as well. Probably because he hasn't been needlecamped lately though.

 

[[BROF]]

Edgeguarding has seen some advance but still due to local maxima it will probably never advance as much as in the other games. The risk/reward ratio is not as good as it used to be.
Unless the character has a very gimpable recovery, youre just better looking for a 2-frame or just covering a ledge option than going out there for an edgeguard, its just more safe. You only have 2 stocks (most of the time) so playing safe makes more sense.
Note: Emphasis on gimpable recovery.

 

[Fenny]

what makes zard even?
I think with mm pink is saying getting in once or twice is easier than keeping bayo out all game.
mewtwo isn't horrible. it's really annoying but I don't see how it's horrible.
I'm confused on his tink placement and Mario tho.

Pink said on stream that he doesn't find Tink hard at all, so I get that placement.

He DID say in an interview that Shiek and Mario were two of Bayo's harder matchups tho, so he needs to explain those two.

 

[blackghost]

shiek is weird because unless shiek is dead set on camping ehr literally all game its probably close to even. mario cant be even mario isnt scared of witch time. mario can get damage throug grabs and as long as he doesnt ty to do a semi followup he wont get witch timed.

 

[EternalFlare]

I was watching the CCC stream and the commentators were discussing how Ally along with them were pointing out offstage edge guarding is not ideal in this game and too many low level players think it's a good idea when it's not.

It's not that top players haven't "developed" how to go off stage. It's just the chance of successfully getting one versus good recoveries is very low if not often impossible and if you miss, you give up stage control which is huge in this game. That's why the most successful players tend to edge guard on stage instead with ledge trapping and reads.

The exception of course is when facing very gimpable recoveries or when you know their options have been exhausted and their forced to recover at a particular spot.

 

[GeneralLedge]

In general, off-stage play is scary, and scary because most players don't have an earnest plan. Even I tend to jump off and immediately retreat when I over/under estimated how my opponent opted to recover; but on the flipside I've had players punish me for consistently recovering low, doing a neat little walk-off punish. Same players tend to be too cool for a second match, mind you.

If you can predict what your opponent will do, edgeguarding is easy. But towards the top, you can't. I can dash-attack-into-fair with DK against all sorts of novice players who opt to jump as soon as their stun period wears off (tons of fun winning a match in under 30 seconds), but stronger players will... just not jump then. And maybe jump after I do this fair, bair me off the stage and now I'm in a bad spot. Habitual predicting works both ways, makes the whole ordeal scary.

I think my favorite ledgeguard play was Mew^2 vs Mew2King, during their last match of this linked set. Both times, Mew^2 psyched out M2K by appearing to do something obvious to bait a reaction, and then following up with a kill. Absolutely beautiful.

 

[ARISTOS]

Off stage edgeguarding has good reward but is very risky; most characters struggle at the ledge and containing them there might reap better rewards as opposed to going hard to essentially a read, especially when doing so and missing puts you in a very messy spot.

Unless the character has an easy recovery to counter or have exhausted their double jump at a poor angle, just focus on trapping them at the ledge, which IS very much underdeveloped.

 

[-Tornado-]

When it comes to edgeguarding, how often are Ledge Trumps (does this count...?) used at top-level play? Or are trumps not really viable at that point on?

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't agree with that at all. Unless the recovery is absolutely exceptional and you don't have a godlike edgeguarding kit(Marth, Sheik, Pika, MK) there is no reason to not go offstage.
A few of mediocre characters, such as Bowser Jr, have very good edgeguarding capabilities. Hell, MOST good characters(Rosa, Sheik, M2, Bayo, Cloud, MK if you call him one, Marth) threaten to completely end your stock the moment you run offstage. The choice to not edgeguard when your character's tools allow you to do so is quite frankly stupid.
Yeah, I'm looking at Mr. R and Aba's MK here.

 

[Ulevo]

Okay, please stop with the kneejerk overreactions. This is silly.

How is my statement a knee jerk overreaction? I have a basis for my statement. Just because it does not run congruent with yours does not mean it is an illogical presumptious opinion.

 

[EternalFlare]

I don't agree with that at all. Unless the recovery is absolutely exceptional and you don't have a godlike edgeguarding kit(Marth, Sheik, Pika, MK) there is no reason to not go offstage.
A few of mediocre characters, such as Bowser Jr, have very good edgeguarding capabilities. Hell, MOST good characters(Rosa, Sheik, M2, Bayo, Cloud, MK if you call him one, Marth) threaten to completely end your stock the moment you run offstage. The choice to not edgeguard when your character's tools allow you to do so is quite frankly stupid.
Yeah, I'm looking at Mr. R and Aba's MK here.

Most recoveries in this game are good enough to the point where even if you hit the opponent offstage a few times, chances are they will still be able to at least make the ledge.

Bearing this in mind is it not easy to see why on stage edge guarding is largely preferred by top players? At top level play let's say the chance to hit someone while offstage is roughly 5 percent. Not only do you have to do this, but have to do it multiple times to really ensure a gimp on most characters. And during this if at any point you mess up, they regain stage control. Compare this to ledge trapping. Even if you picked the wrong option, chances are you still have stage control and the opponent is still stuck in the corner/or in the air. You are put in a much more favourable position no matter the outcome.

You can't really knock Abadango and Mr.R when they are easily some of the most consistent players out there. On the other hand players known for constantly going for "crazy" edge guards are far less consistent.

Don't get me wrong, aggressive edge guarding is super good when the opponent has exhausted their options, has a bad recovery or during lower levels of play. I personally gimp lower level players all the time because they never mix up their recovery making it easy to read. But that crap does NOT work consistently against competent players using characters with good recoveries. As someone that plays the other Smash titles as well I really wish it did, but that's just how Smash 4 is.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I cannot relate to this discussion at all as a Ryu main.

When I run off after someone I don't even care if I kill them. They are going to take a clean 12% minimum if I hit them with pretty much any aerial, except nair. That level of damage is too tasty to ignore.

 

[EternalFlare]

I cannot relate to this discussion at all as a Ryu main.

When I run off after someone I don't even care if I kill them. They are going to take a clean 12% minimum if I hit them with pretty much any aerial, except nair. That level of damage is too tasty to ignore.

It's funny you say that. Because I prefer to do nair edge guards when I go offstage as Ryu.

Bair is hard to land as it doesn't last long. Fair sends them at a high angle which means they are definitely still going to make it back after that. In the same situation nair (if they have a bad recovery) tends to have a higher chance of finishing them off, even if it's the soft hit.

I'll occasionally go for the dair as well I'm fairly sure when and where they are about to recover.

There's also ledge grab fall off rising Tatsus. I think this could be super good against up Bs without hitboxes, haven't really experimented with this yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fair towards the ledge homie. Active for a long time and it hits in front, below and behind Ryu. Ryu's increased hitlag makes it very hard to tech the stage as well.

 

[Ffamran]

Fair towards the ledge homie. Active for a long time and it hits in front, below and behind Ryu. Ryu's increased hitlag makes it very hard to tech the stage as well.

Is Tatsumaki any useful for edgeguarding? By that, I mean Tatsumaki towards the ledge, but hold down so Ryu doesn't grab the ledge. The only problem is that the hitbox rotates around Ryu, a problem Nair, Fair, and Dair don't have.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I just fair now. Easier and more consistent.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I wonder if/when "recovering high" will become an art.

 

[EternalFlare]

I just fair now. Easier and more consistent.

I think there are pros to both.

With Tatsu if the backhit connects it sends them back offstage giving no opportunity to tech (even if teching fair is hard, it's still very much possible). It seems to lose to most recovery moves with hitboxes but against those without them, it seems like a great option (Megaman, Rosalina, Olimar etc.).

Plus it keeps you in the same spot for quite a bit if you hold down as the other poster said. With fair you don't remain in the ideal spot (right next to the ledge) in some situations as long. Which means it's easier to time and 2 frame with arguably.