Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fenny]

What does that have to do with dealing with gordos?
Ganon's hitboxes are more than enough to reflect gordos.

everyone's hitboxes can reflect Gordos

doesn't mean Ganon doesn't have a harder time than others reflecting them with consistent safety because he moves like that grandpa who all of a sudden decided to get fit and healthy after spending all their 60s on the couch

 

[adom4]

everyone's hitboxes can reflect Gordos

doesn't mean Ganon doesn't have a harder time than others reflecting them with consistent safety because he moves like that grandpa who all of a sudden decided to get fit and healthy after spending all their 60s on the couch

It's not like i need to chase the gordos most of the time, his hitboxes are good enough to reflect them back with Nair/Uair/Bair/Dash attack, he really doesn't struggle more with gordos than the rest of the roster.

 

[Pazx]

Friendly reminder:

This is the most strictly moderated thread on Smashboards. Read the rules!
Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.

• Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion
  • "What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"
  • "What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"
  • "How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"
  • "What constitutes a 'counter'?"

Let's steer the conversation back towards why we think a matchup is [arbitrary value] instead of precisely what that number is.

 

[outfoxd]

There's probably some 80:20 / -3 MUs in Smash 4, but with the way people make their MU spreads where 40:60 / -1 is considered a bad MU and 60:40 / +1 is considered as an advantage, it's... I'm just going to stop myself since this is pretty much a red topic of, "Duh, what does a bad MU ratio look like?" *imbecile noises*

I will just say one last thing: people don't like admitting defeat. Face it, if you have a bad MU, it's bad. Don't try to pretend it's not with little numbers or that you "figured it out". Frankly, it's not even a big deal. There are characters or archetypes that just beat your character or character archetype. It's like seeing someone with a really good stand-up game, but terrible grappling and ground game. You can punch and kick all you want, but once a person throws you down and because you specialized so much in stand-up, you're screwed. That's just it. Don't go, "Oh, but what if he doesn't catch me?", or, "What if he doesn't throw me?". What ifs mean jack in a fight.

Just want to chime in that i appreciate any MMA analogies since the UFC and Pride are a prominent and amazing real life representation of metagame evolution and optimization of play. Seriously a lot of it is the same stuff we talk about in here, from the Gracies prominently marketing why you need to grapple being like pre patch diddy to the rise of well-rounded fighters kinda being like people really figuring out mus and picking counterpicks. It's even interesting in that mma and Smash 4 are both relatively new so there's dizzying amounts of discoveries being made in both.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1.) I don't see how it's so hard to see it as a 7/3 matchup in smash 4. Haven't you seen what Abadango did to Samsora? And he's not an MK main, mind you. If getting a single opening through something like dash attack is enough to open up an easy any%-death combo then 7/3 actually looks a bit ... low.

2.) Peach had many bad matchups in Brawl. Her records against Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth and Olimar ranged from pretty bad to downright awful. Even though she's not a good character in smash 4 her matchup spread is overall more manageable now and it's just generally more likely and common to see performances like Samsora's yesterday. Especially with her disproportiately skilled playerbase.

3.) People are generally way too conservative with matchup numbers and apparently love double standards [see below]. Fox vs Sheik is generally seen as a 6/4 matchup in Sheik's favor even though Larry has almost perfect records with every top level Sheik he played [1-0 vs Vinnie, 3 or 4-0 vs Mr r, favorable vs k9] -it's still fair assesment given how Void handles Larry's Fox. Now if Fox vs Sheik is a 4/6 matchup it just seems way wrong to assign the same ratio to MK vs Rosalina like Ulevo suggested. That matchup is easily 7/3 in MK's favor and for all we know MK vs Peach could be even more one-sided depending on whether she does better vs MK in neutral or not.



This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If the same matchup ratio can have two different meanings across two different games you should overhaul your methodology imo. Why would you assume that everybody uses the same double standards as you?

Abadongo has tried to pocket and secondary Metaknight if not outright main him.

I'm not going to hold one match against Peach when others like Umeki have done better and been able to hold there own.

In general I don't see it being brawl bad. Peach lost other mus as well but none were literally unwinable.

 

[Ulevo]

Is MK still LM's worst MU?

No. In fact this match up is extremely volatile. Meta Knight has difficulty in neutral and can easily lose this.

Ehm just to clear up a few things.

Samsora is a super good player, and easily one of the best Peach players in the world aa he has proved in this tournament. However, he wasn't ready for the MK matchup. Knowledge of the MK matchup is very specific as it requires a lot of edge camping, until you're out of 0-death percent. Samsora actually did do this at the beginning of game 1 where he kept running to the ledge. It worked out and he got a 1 stock, but he stopped doing it from the second stock onwards for some reason, and got punished hard for it. I wish he had continued his ledge camping throughout the set, but oh well.

I am not experienced vs Meta Knight myself, but my source for this is Umeki, who has plenty of experience vs Meta Knight, most notably vs Abadango's Meta Knight himself. He told me that as long as you ledge camp, the matchup is actually super doable, because after 0 death percent Peach actually does pretty well vs him. Even in Samsora vs Abadango you could see that if he managed to survive past 35, the tides would quickly turn into Peach's favor. Peach likely still loses the matchup, but it isn't even nearly as bad as we saw yesterday.

(As for Rosalina vs Meta Knight, Kirihara has beaten Abadango's Meta Knight after the patch, with pretty much the same tactic.)

It's quite funny how it's stated that Peach is a bad character the day after she gets second in a tournament being used for 90%, beating one of the best players in the world and a Diddy Kong who is said to be one of her oh so hard match-ups. Peach is also said to have "no results", yet in @Das Koopa 's results thread, she is top 20 easily. The results are certainly not suggesting "Peach is a bad character", unless you consider upper half in the cast as bad.

She is a bad character. There are very few redeeming qualities about the character when compared to other characters above her on the tier list. Samsora's success I would attribute to his skill as a player, his luck in bracket, and the balance of the game.

Abadongo has tried to pocket and secondary Metaknight if not outright main him.

I'm not going to hold one match against Peach when others like Umeki have done better and been able to hold there own.

In general I don't see it being brawl bad. Peach lost other mus as well but none were literally unwinable.

It's Peach's worst match up, and I would think a definitive 7:3. Even without dying to up air links, she struggles a great deal.

 

[Frihetsanka]

She is a bad character.

Peach's results: Top 16 Weighted: #15
Top 8 Weighted: #15

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

If we just look at larger tournaments, top 16 Weighted, then she's #17.

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-581#post-21371264

 

[ARISTOS]

She is a bad character. There are very few redeeming qualities about the character when compared to other characters above her on the tier list. Samsora's success I would attribute to his skill as a player, his luck in bracket, and the balance of the game.

So she's a bad character because she's a bad character, even though Samsora beat Ally twice in a world where he has regularly ran through Foxes and Diddy's alike and even when her weighted results still put her in the top half of the cast, player base nonwithstanding.

Peach MK is pretty bad and I'm interested to see how Aba's MK would fare if Samsora really committed to stalling him out, but such is the game.

We like to claim objectivity in this thread but when something runs counter to our narrative of the game we then find all kinds of nonsense to try and support our beliefs.

 

[Ulevo]

Results are not the be all, end all. Typically in this game there are three underlying attributes the good characters have: mobility, disjoints, projectiles. The only exception to this is characters that have excessive punish games, typically on heavyweights, who also tend to have a sprinkling of some of the previously mentioned traits (Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ryu).

Examples:

Mobility: Zero Suit, Sheik, Diddy, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, et cetera (along with mobility moves, like Monkey Flip, Bouncing Fish, et cetera).

Disjoints: Marth's sword, Ike's sword, Corrin's sword and lance, Cloud's sword, Rosalina's entire kit, a good portion of Ryu's kit, Mewtwo's tail, Megaman's Pellets and aerials, even Meta Knight'a sword, et cetera.

Projectiles: Needles, Gyro, Toon Link's bombs, Luigi's Fireballs, Mario's Fireballs, Villager's aerials, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, et cetera.

Peach has none of these. Float cancelling is a good positional tool, not a means to good mobility. She cannot get from point A to point B better than most of the cast. She has no disjoints, and usually loses to characters that have them. Turnips are bad. They are easy to deflect, perfect shield, and grab to use against Peach. Only Stitch Face is really threatening, and that is based on RNG. She is one of the lightest characters in the game, and as long as you do not challenge Parasol vertically, which is almost impossible, her recovery is rather exploitable. She has strong combos that are difficult to execute, and many of them are not reliable enough to use consistently in a high level match. To top it all off, she struggles to kill since her kill set ups are few and far between.

These traits alone do not indicate a bad character. What determines a good character versus a bad one is match up spreads amongst the cast. But I am willing to bet Peach's are not stellar, given what I have listed.

She's an overrated character by her fans, not terrible though. To quote an acquaintence who plays her, "when you win with Peach, it is 100% the players doing. The player makes the character decent." That is not something I would say about the top 15-25.

 

[Kofu]

Uh, Ulevo, Peach definitely has disjoints. Maybe not as many as you'd expect but she certainly has a few notably disjointed moves.

 

[Ulevo]

Uh, Ulevo, Peach definitely has disjoints. Maybe not as many as you'd expect but she certainly has a few notably disjointed moves.

What. Parasol? Frying Pan/Golf Club/Tennis Racket? Up tilt? She has disjoints, none of which help her in the neutral game to give her openings.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I swear it's irritating seeing people talk about a character that they clearly have little knowledge and are very ignorant about. Instead of acting like your right, why not ask the mains and get a better understanding of the character.
Seriously, saying Peach is bad and/or is not a very good character at this point is honestly a waste of time.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, theory aside, clearly Peach can get openings in neutral, even at top level. You might argue that it's mistakes on her opponent's part, but really, that's kinda how the game is played. You play your opponent and dance with them until one of you finds an opening. Peach's neutral isn't exceptional, but I would imagine as someone who plays Meta Knight- a character who thrives off of whiff punishing and baiting his opponent- you would understand there's more to it than that.

 

[Key313]

You make it so black and white with what determines a good character or not with those categories.

You say she has nothing compared to yet has something no one else does. The value of floating is very important to her play in other ways than going from point a to b. There is a mixup game that comes with it and helps for other things like guarding the edge.

I honestly would like to see more turnip play. They are barely being used from what I see. In a match up like Marth if they want to stay back you can pelt them until they decide to actually go in. If they grab them then they actually lose options. If they are shielding and the like then they are not using their other tools. I feel they are a disruption tool to force actions kinda like pellets. Can destroy some recoveries like Ike's. The horizontal toss stuffs side b which forces a low up b which can be countered. Yes they are not as good as they were before but they are not useless.

Just how much does a point of weight matter? She is kind of light but not as much as you make her out to be. For example she is 1 under Marth and 4 from Diddy if they are also considered some of the lightest characters. (http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight)


- Their players are that skilled. -

They could do the same with someone like Roy and Puff then? Would they be the best if they pick up a top character? Are they that much better than their opponent?

- It's the same people getting the results. -

Well the most skilled people with that character will be the ones getting the results. At one point someone mentioned it was like 2 players for Peach. I figured there were at least 3 names that were known for sure. Slayerz, Umeki, and Kie. Yet when we see the tournament results there is often another Peach outside of them. Some like Meru, Not Last, Ling Ling, Khanage, and Samsora himself. I remember someone asked about the top placing Peach at CEO and the answer was Umeki. Not wrong but Ling Ling also shared that spot. No one noticed though. Guess only players looking at that character would see it.

If you take out the top characters for players I wonder how results would look. Say the top 3 for a character. How is Megaman? Villager? Marth? Even Sheik would look worse off without Void or Mr R going to everything destroying people.

Sounds like you are looking at the bad only here. I'm not even trying to say she is in a certain spot in the list but man whenever she has a performance it's always talked down so hard.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach isn't a bad character but she's fairly mediocre in my book.

I'm not going to hold one match against Peach when others like Umeki have done better and been able to hold there own.

One match? We're talking about two sets [in between which Samsora managed to reverse 3-0 Ally's Mario, mind you] where in sum he got 6-1'd including several 2 stocks and, if I recall correctly, even a JV3. Umeki may "have done better" but Abadango is known to be a huge sandbag at japanese tournaments - if he couldn't win through ledge camping then the only purpose it served in the end is to stall out the inevitable losing process.

We like to claim objectivity in this world but when something runs counter to our narrative of life we then find all kinds of nonsense to try and support our beliefs.

Fixed ^_^

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

doesn't marth still do poorly against projectile based zoners like TL, Villy and MM or has that changed over time?

Toon Link yes, Villy kinda, it's very manageable, Mega Man can be a problem. Toon Link is the worst of the three listed, as he still doesn't actually have to approach in order to kill like the others do outside of Mega Man's laggy fsmash that's easily shielded. Bomb and boomerang confirms a long with running away and camping with said projectiles are the reasons why that MU is bad.

I would argue that Little Mac probably has a few 7/3s. I heard that Cloud and Peach are potentially two.

Mac/Fox isn't good for Mac, but at least he makes up for it with the ability to KO Fox at 0% from a down tilt if KO Punch is active. That can't be ignored.

I'm firmly convinced that 7/3s existed back before patches too that don't anymore. ZSS/Charizard was probably 8:2 in 1.0.0.

Cloud's not that bad. Both Cloud and Mac get edge guarded hard by each other. You have to stay grounded vs Cloud. Where Mac loses is obviously in the air. And super armor moves is obviously a plus when it comes to staying on the ground. 4:6 Cloud favor.

Marth consistently makes it into top 16/8, has multiple high/top level mains, and top level players using him for certain matchups. His matchup spread is that of a high/top tier with only 1 matchup definitely being worse than 45:55 and a few debatable ones like Sheik.. He goes even or wins against Fox, Mario, Cloud, and Mewtwo for the top tiers and wins/goes even with most other high tiers.

I've been waiting to say this without being dead wrong, Marth is a top tier. He may be on the lower end of the top tiers, but hes still one of them. If you consider the top 12 - 15 characters top tiers anyways.

As for 7:3 matchups or worse... Tbh the only ones that come to mind are Cloud vs LM, Fox vs fat characters except for M2, Marth vs Roy, and Sheik vs DK after people figure out that you can literally just ****ing bouncing fish him until he dies if he goes offstage at all after 40%. Seriously guys, this matchup is not even. He gets his **** pushed in in the neutral, and then Sheik can just get him to 60+ off of one combo and cary him offstage where she can spam Bouncing Fish until he dies

Charizard's mobility is way better than the other super heavies, I can't really see him having more than just Fox and ZSS steamroll him unlike the others

We do not go even or beat Fox. Fox has no problems getting in Marth's face, Marth very much struggles at keeping him out. We solidly lose to Fox. We also don't beat Mewtwo. Mewtwo is basically Marth but better with a projectile.
I do actually think Marth is top 15 in the current meta (I have him right at #15 personally), but let's not try and say we win MU's we lose please.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm curious...

Who does Mii Swordfighter win against and why?

I know I'm several pages late on this, but I'm going to just throw this out here:

The three MU's Swordfighter has that are notable would be Sonic, Diddy and Rosalina, simply because of how Gale Strike works - a projectile that hits multiple times and destroys other objects.

With Diddy, it comes down to "the ability to destroy banana peels".

With Rosa, it comes down to "Luma cannot shield this projectile, and it sends Luma flying upward". This projectile can be consumed with gravitational pull, however.

With Sonic, there's potential that Gale Strike may beat-out Spindash[citation needed], and send Sonic upward where he's less threatening.

All of this ties to a rather laggy projectile, however -- any situation above can easily be avoided unless GS is used as a mix-up at mid range, just far enough away to not get punished for daring to press the B button.

Swordfighter may also see some notability in countering hitbox-based recoveries, and Slash Launcher Airborne Assault is an excellent high recovery tool against slow characters.

Unfortunately that's just about the long and short of the character. I'll admit I haven't played Swordfighter in ages (not since my playstyle was "run in and press button"), so I may be over or underselling the character. But they fall under the "slow as molasses because they have a sword" category, and I don't think he got any range buffs like Marth did when Corrin was introduced.

 

[Ulevo]

I swear it's irritating seeing people talk about a character that they clearly have little knowledge and are very ignorant about. Instead of acting like your right, why not ask the mains and get a better understanding of the character.
Seriously, saying Peach is bad and/or is not a very good character at this point is honestly a waste of time.

Feel free to correct me any time. I am waiting for your rebuttle, with supporting examples.

I mean, theory aside, clearly Peach can get openings in neutral, even at top level. You might argue that it's mistakes on her opponent's part, but really, that's kinda how the game is played. You play your opponent and dance with them until one of you finds an opening. Peach's neutral isn't exceptional, but I would imagine as someone who plays Meta Knight- a character who thrives off of whiff punishing and baiting his opponent- you would understand there's more to it than that.

Meta Knight has the mobility and burst options to make those punishes on small mistakes happen. Peach does not. Not while having to deal with projectiles, superior mobility and disjoints.

I would enjoy seeing Peach mains provide a match up chart for their character to see how many winning match ups she has, and how good or bad she does in said match ups.

 

[Nobie]

You can't say that Peach lacks mobility in the same breath you mention her float. Maybe it's a tad overrated or whatever, but that is an A+ tool exclusive to her.

Also, all of Little Mac'd matchups are volatile, it's kind of how he's designed, just like Lucario.

Now, Little Mac vs. Lucario, that's something special.

 

[LancerStaff]

With how you guys talk about characters like Pit and Peach, and previously ones like Megaman and even Mario, it seems more like your definition of mediocre is askew then the characters actually being mediocre.

Like... I don't think Smash is very well balanced. But there's more then 10-15 characters worth using at least.

 

[Ulevo]

Please. Peach, at least in my view, is an exception. There are a lot of characters that are brought up in this thread that are regarded as overrated, but very few are "mediocre" as Gheb aptly put it. I would argue Mario is very overrated, but he is still an excellent character.

And float cancelling is a positioning tool, not a good mobility asset. Like I mentioned before, it does not get her from point A to point B the way other characters can with their run speed or mobility tools. It is meant to microspace and disorient the opponent while masking your intentions. And I would even wager that the tech itself is slightly overvalued in this regard in a game where perfect pivots are a viable option that is underutilizes currently. It is very good, but it is on a character that cannot utilize its potential very well and is by no means a good way to cover distances.

 

[Nu~]

With how you guys talk about characters like Pit and Peach, and previously ones like Megaman and even Mario, it seems more like your definition of mediocre is askew then the characters actually being mediocre.

Like... I don't think Smash is very well balanced. But there's more then 10-15 characters worth using at least.

What is your definition of mediocre?

It must be a unique one because I'm still not seeing how Pit, the "jack of all trades, master of none, 'meh' at everything" isn't mediocre.

 

[EternalFlare]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?

Regarding MK vs Peach from earlier, how can people possibly claim Smash 4 doesn't have matchups as bad as previous Smash games when stuff like that exists? As someone that plays all Smash games competitively outside of 64, that's easily among the worst I've ever seen.

For instance, Brawl had characters that could near infinite chaingrab other characters (DDD vs DK or Marth vs Ness/Lucas) for instance. But in Smash 4 MK can literally zero to death Peach off a dash attack, up tilt, anti-air uair or falling bair (missed tech) down tilt reset.

I'd argue that's just as bad if not worse as MK in this game has multiple ways to set it up, he doesn't rely on fishing for one particular option. Plus his neutral is great versus Peach too thanks to superior mobility and disjoints, 2 things Peach has never been great at dealing with. So it's not like MK at least loses in that aspect.

Case in point, Smash 4 definitely has 7-3 or 8-2 matchups like previous Smash games. There aren't nearly as many solo viable characters as people like to believe.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Peach isn't a bad character but she's fairly mediocre in my book.



One match? We're talking about two sets [in between which Samsora managed to reverse 3-0 Ally's Mario, mind you] where in sum he got 6-1'd including several 2 stocks and, if I recall correctly, even a JV3. Umeki may "have done better" but Abadango is known to be a huge sandbag at japanese tournaments - if he couldn't win through ledge camping then the only purpose it served in the end is to stall out the inevitable losing process.



Fixed ^_^

Who has done better than Abadango to not be in a sandbagging mood with MK?

I haven't seen such and don't see even on paper why the Match-up even be that terrible in the first place. He has worse tools while hers have gotten better in some areas but worse in others.

I'd admit though, this would require more research but I stand by I doubt it's as bad as some people make it. Just that it is a bad match up for her.

 

[|RK|]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?

Regarding MK vs Peach from earlier, how can people possibly claim Smash 4 doesn't have matchups as bad as previous Smash games when stuff like that exists? As someone that plays all Smash games competitively outside of 64, that's easily among the worst I've ever seen.

For instance, Brawl had characters that could near infinite chaingrab other characters (DDD vs DK or Marth vs Ness/Lucas) for instance. But in Smash 4 MK can literally zero to death Peach off a dash attack, up tilt, anti-air uair or falling bair (missed tech) down tilt reset.

I'd argue that's just as bad if not worse (as MK in this game has multiple ways to set it up, he doesn't rely on fishing for one particular option). Plus his neutral is great versus Peach too thanks to superior mobility and disjoints, 2 things Peach has never been great at dealing with. So it's not like MK at least loses in that aspect.

Case in point, Smash 4 definitely has 7-3 or 8-2 matchups like previous Smash games. There aren't nearly as many solo viable characters as people like to believe.

Many Mac's say that Sheik isn't bad, honestly. I feel like Mario could be pretty bad, but I'm not an expert on the character.

 

[EternalFlare]

Who has done better than Abadango to not be in a sandbagging mood with MK?

I haven't seen such and don't see even on paper why the Match-up even be that terrible in the first place. He has worse tools while hers have gotten better in some areas but worse in others.

I'd admit though, this would require more research but I stand by I doubt it's as bad as some people make it. Just that it is a bad match up for her.

Did you watch the set people are referring to or just going off theory?

Abadango literally zero-deathed or near zero-deathed Samsora several times and won games he was losing 90% in neutral or worse because of it. And this is in Smash 4, a game with very limited true combos.

If that isn't a terrible matchup, I don't know what is.

And this isn't like Ice Climbers where once you take care one of them, their zero-deaths are gone (plus Peach has far better tools to deal with Icys in neutral anyway). MK always had access to them provided Peach was at low percents.

Many Mac's say that Sheik isn't bad, honestly. I feel like Mario could be pretty bad, but I'm not an expert on the character.

Hmm so it's probably Peach then. I can't imagine Little Mac can do much against Peach's floats when done at the correct heights. Several other characters can just stuff obvious floats air-air but not Mac without heavily committing to punishable options. Plus Peach's edge guarding is no doubt amazing versus Little Mac.

 

[BSP]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?
.

Pac-Man is up there for one of his worst. If he gets the lead, he can camp behind a trampoline near the ledge, resetting the trampoline between hydrant water spurts to great effect since Mac doesn't have a real aerial approach.

If Pac doesn't have the lead, it's not that bad, but trampoline is F1 and will pull Mac out of anything he is doing, even armored moves. Since Mac needs to stay grounded to be effective, he's not the best at dealing with all of the crap Pac-Man can have going on either.

 

[Luco]

Relevant, but Peach's biggest (?) disjointed move IS the one that makes her neutral terrifying.

Hint: Float makes this move absolutely bonkers.

Turnips are also pretty good, especially Z-dropped, the shield pressure situations they create set-up perfectly for grabs and combos. And in the rare situation she pulls out Mr Saturn or a bob-omb, she instantly jumps 2 tiers.

Her up-B is exploitable, but she doesn't get spiked very often due to its hitboxes, and in conjunction with Float, while she might take some % offstage she's unlikely to die which is more than quite a few members of the cast can say.

 

[blackghost]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?

Regarding MK vs Peach from earlier, how can people possibly claim Smash 4 doesn't have matchups as bad as previous Smash games when stuff like that exists? As someone that plays all Smash games competitively outside of 64, that's easily among the worst I've ever seen.

For instance, Brawl had characters that could near infinite chaingrab other characters (DDD vs DK or Marth vs Ness/Lucas) for instance. But in Smash 4 MK can literally zero to death Peach off a dash attack, up tilt, anti-air uair or falling bair (missed tech) down tilt reset.

I'd argue that's just as bad if not worse as MK in this game has multiple ways to set it up, he doesn't rely on fishing for one particular option. Plus his neutral is great versus Peach too thanks to superior mobility and disjoints, 2 things Peach has never been great at dealing with. So it's not like MK at least loses in that aspect.

Case in point, Smash 4 definitely has 7-3 or 8-2 matchups like previous Smash games. There aren't nearly as many solo viable characters as people like to believe.

we are talking about how this mu is in the minority. this mu being so bad is the outlier not the norm. in melee fox and other top tier INVALIDATE vitrually the entitre roster.
go look at how many 7-3 mus are in melee or worse. i think they have some 9-1s too.
in brawl MK and other top tier did it with a lesser extent. in smash 4 its even less so.
a game with this many characters has like 3 or 4 mus that are exceptionally bad. thats good and its not even as bad as it could be. in marvel there is a legit 10-0 mu.

 

[Meru.]

Results are not the be all, end all. Typically in this game there are three underlying attributes the good characters have: mobility, disjoints, projectiles. The only exception to this is characters that have excessive punish games, typically on heavyweights, who also tend to have a sprinkling of some of the previously mentioned traits (Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ryu).

Examples:

Mobility: Zero Suit, Sheik, Diddy, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, et cetera (along with mobility moves, like Monkey Flip, Bouncing Fish, et cetera).

Disjoints: Marth's sword, Ike's sword, Corrin's sword and lance, Cloud's sword, Rosalina's entire kit, a good portion of Ryu's kit, Mewtwo's tail, Megaman's Pellets and aerials, even Meta Knight'a sword, et cetera.

Projectiles: Needles, Gyro, Toon Link's bombs, Luigi's Fireballs, Mario's Fireballs, Villager's aerials, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, et cetera.

Peach has none of these. Float cancelling is a good positional tool, not a means to good mobility. She cannot get from point A to point B better than most of the cast. She has no disjoints, and usually loses to characters that have them. Turnips are bad. They are easy to deflect, perfect shield, and grab to use against Peach. Only Stitch Face is really threatening, and that is based on RNG. She is one of the lightest characters in the game, and as long as you do not challenge Parasol vertically, which is almost impossible, her recovery is rather exploitable. She has strong combos that are difficult to execute, and many of them are not reliable enough to use consistently in a high level match. To top it all off, she struggles to kill since her kill set ups are few and far between.

These traits alone do not indicate a bad character. What determines a good character versus a bad one is match up spreads amongst the cast. But I am willing to bet Peach's are not stellar, given what I have listed.

She's an overrated character by her fans, not terrible though. To quote an acquaintence who plays her, "when you win with Peach, it is 100% the players doing. The player makes the character decent." That is not something I would say about the top 15-25.

Peach's pressure game is very good. Her shield pressure game is very good since Dair is -3/-4 on shield, Nair is -2. All other aerials, which are her main moves, and Dtilt are safe. Her moves have high frame advantage (Dair is +24 on hit at 0%) allowing for a solid combo game, on top of her high damage output. The combination of float (which allows her too stall in the air, bait airdodges, follow airdodges, among more), a disjointed dash attack, low landing lag on aerials such as Nair and Uair, a ranged and scary Fair, and her good edgeguarding game thanks to her float give her an above average advantage state.

Her float gives her a unique spacing game as she can move and retreat during her attacks more swiftly. It also allows her to attack her opponents from all kinds of angles. For example, there are few characters who can pressure their opponents from above so well as Peach can using her Dair. Float grants Peach a very unique spacing game that allow her to always find an angle to attack her opponents from.

I would honestly say low lag, safety, good pressure game and the ability to attack the opponent swiftly from both the ground and air already give Peach more than enough to make her stand out. She definitely has clear strengths. On the other hand, I do understand your point. She feels like an all rounder as her combo game doesn't outright destroy opponents, she can kill early but does not necessarily kill early consistently (like for example item confirms or grab to Uairs can), nor does she outright outspace her opponent or outzone them, and even then she doesn't have exactly good mobility. However, I would argue that it is exactly this all-roundedness that allow her to overcome even her worst matchups, as she has plenty of tools and there is always something she can use (even her "bad" turnips, since items are always a good thing to have). Her mobility is what balances her, as with good mobility she would definitely be overpowered. I can understand what your friend says, as I believe her weakness is abusable enough by her opponent so she has few convincingly winning matchups (imo) and many low tiers such as Shulk or Palutena can still compete with her, but her strengths together with her allroundedness are enough to overcome every matchup.

It is not 100% the players doing though, it's not like Peach is bad and her players are geniuses. This argument may hold some crown if there's one player who does significantly better than the rest, but with Peach, who does not have one best player but instead several different that do well with her, this is clearly not the case.

(As for disjoints, Dtilt is disjointed and invincible on her arm. Dash Attack is disjointed and Fair also has some slight disjoint on the ground. Otherwise she doesn't really have disjoint but her hitbox bubbles are quite generous when it comes to their size and placement)

Peach isn't a bad character but she's fairly mediocre in my book.



One match? We're talking about two sets [in between which Samsora managed to reverse 3-0 Ally's Mario, mind you] where in sum he got 6-1'd including several 2 stocks and, if I recall correctly, even a JV3. Umeki may "have done better" but Abadango is known to be a huge sandbag at japanese tournaments - if he couldn't win through ledge camping then the only purpose it served in the end is to stall out the inevitable losing process.



Fixed ^_^

Who said Abadango sandbags? He doesn't perform as well in Japan as in US, but that doesn't mean he's sandbagging. Either way it's quite an unfair way to downplay someone's performance by simply saying "his opponent was just sandbagging", especially since that's not something you can say for sure.

 

[Ffamran]

Uh, Ulevo, Peach definitely has disjoints. Maybe not as many as you'd expect but she certainly has a few notably disjointed moves.

Dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt looks like it's slightly disjointed, apparently Dtilt is both disjointed -- there's a hitbox that's place after her hand -- and arm invincible 9-14, 6 I-frames, to its 13 startup and 2 active frames, Side Smash, Uair, technically Toad since, y'know, he vomits on you, Parasol, and of course, Vegetable. I wait for the day when a projectile is attached to a character's hurtbox. That would suck and be worse than Dhalsim's stretchy limbs being attack or even caught in a grab. Not a disjoint, but her Up Smash is apparently invincible head and arms from 14-20, 5 I-frames, to its 14 startup and 3 active frames. Still, as Ulevo said, most of them aren't really that great for neutral game outside of Vegetable.

Basing everything I said off of this video since there isn't an image gallery or a thread of Peach's hitboxes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lno1MdM_F_s.

Please. Peach, at least in my view, is an exception. There are a lot of characters that are brought up in this thread that are regarded as overrated, but very few are "mediocre" as Gheb aptly put it. I would argue Mario is very overrated, but he is still an excellent character.

And float cancelling is a positioning tool, not a good mobility asset. Like I mentioned before, it does not get her from point A to point B the way other characters can with their run speed or mobility tools. It is meant to microspace and disorient the opponent while masking your intentions. And I would even wager that the tech itself is slightly overvalued in this regard in a game where perfect pivots are a viable option that is underutilizes currently. It is very good, but it is on a character that cannot utilize its potential very well and is by no means a good way to cover distances.

Semantics at this point, but I have a feeling people were getting on your case when you said Peach was a bad character. If Peach is a bad character, then I can't imagine what characters like Falco and Jigglypuff would be... They'd be horrid!

On a side note: Peach with the ability to teleport like Dhalsim and her Float which Dhalsim also has as a V-Skill in SFV would be really stupid.

 

[EternalFlare]

we are talking about how this mu is in the minority. this mu being so bad is the outlier not the norm. in melee fox and other top tier INVALIDATE vitrually the entitre roster.
go look at how many 7-3 mus are in melee or worse. i think they have some 9-1s too.
in brawl MK and other top tier did it with a lesser extent. in smash 4 its even less so.
a game with this many characters has like 3 or 4 mus that are exceptionally bad. thats good and its not even as bad as it could be. in marvel there is a legit 10-0 mu.

I'm aware of Melee's terrible matchups being a Sheik player in it, I know my character invalidates most low-mid tiers. Most grapplers in Street Fighter have historically had a few 7-3s.

But Smash 4 has a lot more than 4 terrible matchups .

What you saw MK doing here is not exclusive to Peach. He can also do it to Rosa and GnW and possible a few others who are floaty with big hurtboxes.

Villager versus Ryu I'd also argue is 7-3. Villager has no reason to ever be near enough to get caught by tilt TSRK confirms or in general by Ryu's slow and telegraphed moves. And then once he's offstage it's curtains. Villager has everything he needs to constantly gimp him.

Little Mac versus a few characters is also probably 7-3 or worse like Peach and Pacman.

Ganon no doubt has several 7-3s.

Pac-Man is up there for one of his worst. If he gets the lead, he can camp behind a trampoline near the ledge, resetting the trampoline between hydrant water spurts to great effect since Mac doesn't have a real aerial approach.

If Pac doesn't have the lead, it's not that bad, but trampoline is F1 and will pull Mac out of anything he is doing, even armored moves. Since Mac needs to stay grounded to be effective, he's not the best at dealing with all of the crap Pac-Man can have going on either.

Makes sense. Pacman's air camping can be obnoxious even for characters with stellar air games. I can only imagine it being far worse for a character with such limited aerial options.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is Little Mac's worst matchup anyway? Peach possibly? Or is Sheik worse?

Regarding MK vs Peach from earlier, how can people possibly claim Smash 4 doesn't have matchups as bad as previous Smash games when stuff like that exists? As someone that plays all Smash games competitively outside of 64, that's easily among the worst I've ever seen.

For instance, Brawl had characters that could near infinite chaingrab other characters (DDD vs DK or Marth vs Ness/Lucas) for instance. But in Smash 4 MK can literally zero to death Peach off a dash attack, up tilt, anti-air uair or falling bair (missed tech) down tilt reset.

I'd argue that's just as bad if not worse (as MK in this game has multiple ways to set it up, he doesn't rely on fishing for one particular option). Plus his neutral is great versus Peach too thanks to superior mobility and disjoints, 2 things Peach has never been great at dealing with. So it's not like MK at least loses in that aspect.

Case in point, Smash 4 definitely has 7-3 or 8-2 matchups like previous Smash games. There aren't nearly as many solo viable characters as people like to believe.

The game has a few polar characters but they still have counter play around it.

This isn't Roy vs Ice Climbers in melee where you literally can't do anything

Or D3 vs someone he chaingrabed/characters that grab release infinites/Pika 0-death off a grab.

Peach has more open room to play around this along with most of the cast in their bad matchups.

Did you watch the set people are referring to or just going off theory?

Abadango literally zero-deathed or near zero-deathed Samsora several times and won games he was losing 90% in neutral or worse because of it. And this is in Smash 4, a game with very limited true combos.

If that isn't a terrible matchup, I don't know what is.

And this isn't like Ice Climbers where once you take care one of them, their zero-deaths are gone (plus Peach has far better tools to deal with Icys in neutral anyway). MK always had access to them provided Peach was at low percents.



Hmm so it's probably Peach then. I can't imagine Little Mac can do much against Peach's floats when done at the correct heights. Several other characters can just stuff obvious floats air-air but not Mac without heavily committing to punishable options. Plus Peach's edge guarding is no doubt amazing versus Little Mac.

So he got the zero to death a few times then botched it at other times. Then other Top Peach mains saying it has counter play with what to do against it.

Not doubting it is a bad match up, just that I do think there is a lot more wiggle room to work with.

 

[EternalFlare]

The game has a few polar characters but they still have counter play around it.

This isn't Roy vs Ice Climbers in melee where you literally can't do anything

Or D3 vs someone he chaingrabed/characters that grab release infinites/Pika 0-death off a grab.

Peach has more open room to play around this along with most of the cast in their bad matchups.



So he got the zero to death a few times then botched it at other times. Then other Top Peach mains saying it has counter play with what to do against it.

Not doubting it is a bad match up, just that I do think there is a lot more wiggle room to work with.

How can you insist DDD or Pikachu's matchups versus characters they could zero-death off grabs was worse than MK vs Peach now? They both are doing effectively the same thing (killing off one neutral exchange). Plus Pika couldn't really zero-death in those matchups either iirc, just rack up a ton of damage (and the chaingrabs ended before he could finish them off with a nair or something).

Especially when MK's could be argued as worse than your examples. Because in those examples it works off a grab and only a grab. If you don't get grabbed it can literally never happen.

MK can do it off a dash attack (and his dash attack is among the best), an up tilt, an AA-uair, an AA falling bair (missed tech reset) and sometimes a downtilt. That's way more options you have to avoid than simply a grab and you're in danger whether you're grounded or in the air.

Edit:

What counter play are top Peach's claiming? If it's to not simply get hit by any of these options, that's true of all those Brawl and Melee matchups as well. That doesn't mean the matchups aren't bad because you will inevitably eventually get hit no matter how good you are.

 

[PK Gaming]

What is your definition of mediocre?

It must be a unique one because I'm still not seeing how Pit, the "jack of all trades, master of none, 'meh' at everything" isn't mediocre.

Well, I wouldn't really say that Pit is "meh" at everything.

He has some very obvious strengths (frame data, damage racking, edgeguarding, mobility), and I think they clearly outweigh his weaknesses (dismal KO ability, abusable recovery).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Add garbage hitboxes on several of Pit's key moves to his flaws. And unsafe as all hell on block aside from 3 aerials.

 

[EternalFlare]

Anyway I think Peach isn't terrible and has some incredibly strong tools but she's certainly far from solo viable whether you include MK or not. She has some disjoints but not on the level of sword characters who can effectively wall her out. Similarly keep away/projectile characters give her a lot of trouble because Peach is NOT good at chasing at all. She lacks mobility. She's only effective when she's the one baiting and punishing approaches.

With that said I'd argue only a few characters are truly solo viable in this game. Possibly no more than 10 or so. With any other character you might see them doing well at stacked tournaments but that's because they managed to avoid their bad matchups due to sheer luck.

That is to say, if you truly want to be consistent in this game (whatever that means in Smash 4 lol) and don't want to rely on luck at all to do it, unless you play a top tier, you probably need a secondary or two.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How can you insist DDD or Pikachu's matchups versus characters they could zero-death off grabs was worse than MK vs Peach now? They both are doing effectively the same thing (killing off one neutral exchange). Plus Pika couldn't really zero-death in those matchups either iirc, just rack up a ton of damage (and the chaingrabs ended before he could finish them off with a nair or something).

Especially when MK's could be argued as worse than your examples. Because in those examples it works off a grab and only a grab. If you don't get grabbed it can literally never happen.

MK can do it off a dash attack (and his dash attack is among the best), an up tilt, an AA-uair, an AA falling bair (missed tech reset) and sometimes a downtilt. That's way more options you have to avoid than simply a grab and you're in danger whether you're grounded or in the air.

Edit:

What counter play are top Peach's claiming? If it's to not simply get hit by any of these options, that's true of all those Brawl and Melee matchups as well. That doesn't mean the matchups aren't bad because you will inevitably eventually get hit no matter how good you are.

1. It's not garenteed and peach has more ways to deal with it.

2. The defensive options and worse balance overall made it way worse to try and play around it.

 

[EternalFlare]

1. It's not garenteed and peach has more ways to deal with it.

2. The defensive options and worse balance overall made it way worse to try and play around it.

1. Explain how it's not guaranteed. SDI doesn't seem to be effective against it if you're a floaty character. It will work regardless.

2. More vague statements I can't really respond to. Those Melee/Brawl examples you could play around as well, but you'd eventually get caught.

 

[Nobie]

RE: Peach vs. MK counterplay

C'mon, it was just on the previous page.

Ehm just to clear up a few things.

Samsora is a super good player, and easily one of the best Peach players in the world as he has proved in this tournament. However, he wasn't ready for the MK matchup. Knowledge of the MK matchup is very specific as it requires a lot of edge camping, until you're out of 0-death percent. Samsora actually did do this at the beginning of game 1 where he kept running to the ledge. It worked out and he got a 1 stock lead, but he stopped doing it from the second stock onwards for some reason, and got punished hard for it. I wish he had continued his ledge camping throughout the set, but oh well.

I am not experienced vs Meta Knight myself, but my source for this is Umeki, who has plenty of experience vs Meta Knight, most notably vs Abadango's Meta Knight himself. He told me that as long as you ledge camp, the matchup is actually super doable, because after 0 death percent Peach actually does pretty well vs him. Even in Samsora vs Abadango you could see that if he managed to survive past 35, the tides would quickly turn into Peach's favor. Peach likely still loses the matchup, but it isn't even nearly as bad as we saw yesterday.

(As for Rosalina vs Meta Knight, Kirihara has beaten Abadango's Meta Knight after the patch, with pretty much the same tactic.)

It's quite funny how it's stated that Peach is a bad character the day after she gets second in a tournament being used for 90%, beating one of the best players in the world and a Diddy Kong who is said to be one of her oh so hard match-ups. Peach is also said to have "no results", yet in @Das Koopa 's results thread, she is top 20 easily. The results are certainly not suggesting "Peach is a bad character", unless you consider upper half in the cast as bad.