Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

1122 mini brawler is insane, and I love it. I would definitely invest some time in him if he wasn't a wrongfully neglected meme child.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Making a character that fast have that much kill power was a stupid idea. Always is.
This looks extremely obnoxious and annoying to play against with any non-top tier so I don't blame a lot of people for being upset. But I'm not seeing anything that makes the character look so busted that a person would want to complain about the character that much.
aside from, of course, the weird kill power on up b

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's just... I've seen a ton of his Corrin gameplay and there's some stuff that he isn't doing. His ledge game is anemic; Corrin has a ton of great options against opponents hanging on the ledge and he doesn't really bother with them. He's also generally pretty conservative with Dragon Lunge... which is a good mindset to have in certain matchups, but there are times where he can absolutely get away with abusing more since there are some characters that literally can't do anything against it.

It's possible YOC is the better player, but Cosmos is absolutely the better Corrin main.

Kind of late but you need to realize that sometimes cut and dry playstyles are sometimes really good. How can you say he's a better player but then say someone else is a better X character main, wouldn't that contradict the entire thing?

A super passive slow bait n punish game of just doing the most cookie cutter moves for small bits of damage instead of aggressive fancy combos. that's how most japanese play and why they always felt boring to people, for Yoshi back in brawl a lot of people hated Poltergusts playstyle due to how bland it was (didn't even know how to platform cancel or b reverse) but it worked and it kept him as the best Yoshi in the world for a good while.

The idea behind him probably using very little dragon lunge is probably getting the opponent to be complacent with realizing he's not throwing it out, than when he does they never expect it. It's like if a diddy was doing fsmash to try and close a stock all game but he eventually just throws out a random utilt to seal the stock.
The surprise factor.

The player doesn't need to use every single tool in a character's kit and look fancy while doing it, long as they win with what they're doing there doesn't seem a need to change that style.

 

[Y2Kay]

I will point out that Abadango's Mewtwo was not optimized for the longest time, and still is in some ways.

Still didn't change the fact that he was the best Mewtwo.

 

[Yikarur]

I am beginning to think people do not understand what solo viable means.

Cuz you put Ryu there.

And he isn't.

Do YOU know what solo viable means? Having some losing MUs doesn't disqualify you as solo viable. Otherwise we just have 1-2 solo viable characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

I've got to talk about Ryu for a second.

The only thing Ryu has that says he's a "top tier" character is his Theory. Ryu has very little representation, that's a fact. Rarely does he ever get into a top 8 at a major, or even frequently for that matter. The only thing he has is the theory, and that's how people place Ryu so ridiculously high. Players (top and otherwise) claim that Ryu has very high potential in the game, but the results and representation just say otherwise.

A contributing factor of Ryu being represented much less than most characters in the game is how hard he is to play and how technical he is. As a result, with such low representation, it will only lead into much less results and weighted results as a whole. Yet it's only his theory and potential that makes him so high.

Let me ask, does Ryu even deserve to be top 15? Doesn't a top 15 character have to frequent either top 8 or top 16 in major tournaments, or even have multiple people playing them hit said tops? Because Ryu himself just doesn't seem to have that potential at all. So does he deserve top 15?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I kind of wish people would check with the data before making blanket statements about "lack of results".

Top 16 Weighted: #10
Top 16 Unweighted: #10
Top 8 Weighted: #10
Top 8 Unweighted: #11

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Yes, he deserves top 15.

 

[Das Koopa]

Like I said a few pages back, 9th at EVO/GENESIS and a general history of doing well at regionals that top players attend, including regions like Japan, Mexico, and SoCal.

The position/placements are averages, but with a project I've been recently working on, Ryu doesn't seem to fall off even under the most weighted methods I can create before it edges into being totally arbitrary. He does well, has done well for months, and the results in question seem to reflect a healthy metagame for the character.

-Multiple mains that do well in A or B grade regions.
-International results in Mexico and Japan, two very strong countries.
-Strong placements high-skill pool tournaments.

These are a result of his character traits. Shoryuken confirms are big for him as a character, Focus gives him some flexibility in his landing options and mobility, he racks up damage fast, etc.

 

[HoSmash4]

Solo viability just depends on your definition for it and how lenient you'll be with how many losing matchups

Ryu could get a bracket of and by chance and win a major. Bracket luck matters a lot

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Solo viability is so overrated in smash 4. Even if you played Sheik or Diddy Kong at top level you'd still benefit so much from a competent secondary that there's no reason to not pick one up if you want to maximize your chances at winning something.

As long as one of Cloud, Mewtwo, Luigi or Diddy can cover your main character's worst matchups sufficiently you're good to go.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do YOU know what solo viable means? Having some losing MUs doesn't disqualify you as solo viable. Otherwise we just have 1-2 solo viable characters.

Depends on who you lose too. Ryu has losing match ups vs COMMON top tiers who are also better characters. That's very different from losing to a random low tier that never sees play.

Ask me how many chars are solo viable and I would say probably around 7 i.e not a lot.

 

[PK Gaming]

Kind of late but you need to realize that sometimes cut and dry playstyles are sometimes really good. How can you say he's a better player but then say someone else is a better X character main, wouldn't that contradict the entire thing?

A super passive slow bait n punish game of just doing the most cookie cutter moves for small bits of damage instead of aggressive fancy combos. that's how most japanese play and why they always felt boring to people, for Yoshi back in brawl a lot of people hated Poltergusts playstyle due to how bland it was (didn't even know how to platform cancel or b reverse) but it worked and it kept him as the best Yoshi in the world for a good while.

The idea behind him probably using very little dragon lunge is probably getting the opponent to be complacent with realizing he's not throwing it out, than when he does they never expect it. It's like if a diddy was doing fsmash to try and close a stock all game but he eventually just throws out a random utilt to seal the stock.
The surprise factor.

The player doesn't need to use every single tool in a character's kit and look fancy while doing it, long as they win with what they're doing there doesn't seem a need to change that style.

You made some great points, but it's ultimately not about being boring or dry. YOC brings consistency to the table; you can tell he's a tough player to beat and he's got an impressive tournament record to back that up. But even with that in mind, I feel like he's still got a ways to go before being considered "the best" Corrin. Chainz brought up optimization and it's a good point to consider. This isn't even about looking fancy, there are things he just flat out isn't doing.

This set is a good example of what I mean. He plays solidly, but he basically lets Kie come back up from the ledge nearly every single time. This is a crucial mistake imo, since Corrin has great anti-ledge options. I understand why he does it; he plays at his own pace and doesn't try anything fancy because he doesn't really need it to win most of his matches. But still, I've seen Cosmos pull off stuff like
like this and that sort of thing can really make a difference in a match.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not understand the general motives here in this thread. People are acting as though a character does not deserve a placement within a respective tier because they didn't win EVO. This game is incredibly balanced at this point and making assessments based on results when it is this difficult to predict which characters should be winning based on relative power is silly.

Match up charts or theory mixed in with placements is how it should be conducted, otherwise postulating based off of results is going to leave some people understandably scratching their heads.

 

[blackghost]

I'll be honest, I was waiting for your comment, because you seem to be very much 'against' Bayonetta, and I was interested in seeing your thoughts. Judging by your profile picture you either did or still do use the character or at least enjoy Bayonetta as a character, so I'd be interested in hearing some more in depth thoughts about her, if you don't mind.

Personally, I think the character is still very good, and still has a lot more room to develop as well. She was very similar to pre-patch Diddy or Luigi where maybe there were a few people advancing the characters meta past just abusing incredible strengths (ZeRo in the case of Diddy, Concon in the case of Luigi) but not enough to actually make a difference until she was nerfed. Maybe not top 10 right now, but definitely top 15 in my book. (Really though, top 5/10/15 are very limiting when it comes to good characters in this game and I wish more people would stop cutting off there just because they are easy round numbers to cut off at.)

I'm pro bayo. very much so. i main her and have enjoyed it the entire time.but I find myself both in friendlies and online constantly hearing incorrect information about her. either because she's complex or because players have an idea of what she is in Thier head and not really matching what she is in game.
obviously pink fresh is the best with the character. his creative use of combos, confirms, and even making her neutral look better than it is.
but as a character she has exceptional Edgegaurd tools and it's really hard to gimp her (I'd say in duck hunt it's borderline impossible unless the bayo player messes up)
the average bayo player I've seen on steam is still mostly using witch twist>abk>witch twist>up air. and that shouldn't be nearly as consistent as it has been for calculus, chold, and Captain zach among others. players aren't sdi'ng her.
outside of sonic going to duck hunt she really doesn't have a bad stage specefic match up.
but I think it comes down to theory and actual practice. her theory is amazing and keeping track of all her options while plying agianst her is hard but once people simply Camp her out it gets rough.
also her mu spread isn't really top 10 material either. who does she cleanly beat? I personally I think Roy and Falcon her really good for her (relevance in metagame?) but she's even with most if not all high usage characters and she loses to diddy, mario, tink, sonic,and keepaway shiek. can she easily keep a character out? that's difficult to say? on lylate yes. she gets shiek needles everywhere else not sure.
lastly I think a new playstyle with her is going to emerge. I think we are going to see run away bayo especially on duck hunt. not sure how effective it is yet.
I'm just going to say this here you can tell if Bayo will do the kick on heeline slide or not. if she is sliding and shooting she will kick. it is not a mix up and she must choose an option when she starts the move. that move should be punished at least 90 percent of the time.

 

[Joey T.]

Depends on who you lose too. Ryu has losing match ups vs COMMON top tiers who are also better characters. That's very different from losing to a random low tier that never sees play.

Ask me how many chars are solo viable and I would say probably around 7 i.e not a lot.

Which ones do you think they are? With how balanced this game is, I know I would have a problem if I tried to choose them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm. Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, Cloud, Mario, Sonic and probably Mewtwo.

I think people sleep on ZSS to much after nerfs. She was taken down a notch because she was insane. She is still a queen tho same for Sheik. Diddy is Diddy. Cloud is very solid and limit pushes him over the top. No one invalidates his toolset. Same for Mewtwo. Sonic is just all over the place and only Wrath is coming close to his full potential as a time out character. Mario is extremely solid and doesnt get really shut down by anyone.

Rosa would be here, but I feel the MK match really is common enough and bad enough to keep her from winning stuff consistently.

 

[NewZen]

A bit late, but after seeing that Mii Brawler footage, it reminds me of what happened during the earlier days of Smash 4 at my local scene where if you played either Diddy, Luigi, or Rosalina, people despised you with a passion (Then again, I'm glad Cyclone got nerfed, otherwise I would have nobody to play with locally. Lol).

However, the only troublesome thing I can see with Mii Brawler Light is that Up-B. It KO range is deceptive and can catch you off guard, and even then, that video was against a DK, a heavyweight (The definition of combo-food), so the prospect of character being "busted" doesn't really seem to hold much ground, IMO.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Well after making a serious effort to pick up King Dedede and do some research about him I have decided that he is basically a non functional character and I honestly don't see how anyone can say he isn't bottom tier. Does anyone have any videos or tips/tricks to help me learn more about the king? I've watched some of Big D's fights and even when he uses Dedede its like he wins off of just fundamentals or his opponents messing up. I have no idea why ZeRo placed Dedede as high as he did, though he's just one person. I've seen some people here place Dedede as a low tier instead of a bottom tier and its confusing the hell out of me. I play Samus and Roy a lot, so I know what it's like to play a low tier. Way too many Dedede match ups feel just impossible unless you either get lucky or are leagues ahead of your opponent and win in spite of the character.

Also unrelated but Emblem Lord you are a weird guy I come here every day and its like my day isn't complete unless I get a reminder from you that Ryu is actually terrible, lol.

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well after making a serious effort to pick up King Dedede and do some research about him I have decided that he is basically a non functional character and I honestly don't see how anyone can say he isn't bottom tier. Does anyone have any videos or tips/tricks to help me learn more about the king? I've watched some of Big D's fights and even when he uses Dedede its like he wins off of just fundamentals or his opponents messing up. I have no idea why ZeRo placed Dedede as high as he did, though he's just one person. I've seen some people here place Dedede as a low tier instead of a bottom tier and its confusing the hell out of me. I play Samus and Roy a lot, so I know what it's like to play a low tier. Way too many Dedede match ups feel just impossible unless you either get lucky or are leagues ahead of your opponent and win in spite of the character.

Also unrelated but Emblem Lord you are a weird guy I come here every day and its like my day isn't complete unless I get a reminder from you that Ryu is actually terrible, lol.

Ryu is ****ing awesome as **** in this game and in the Street Fighter universe storywise is an inspiration to any competitive gamer or athlete.

He is barely top ten based on results and imo in the current metagame not top tier.

Someone do me a favor. Tell me where I said Ryu is bad. You people need to learn to stop trying to infer my meaning. If I want to say something, please believe me I don't need a translator.

I speak plain simple English as to avoid such misunderstandings.

 

[Furret24]

Ryu is ****ing awesome as **** in this game and in the Street Fighter universe storywise is an inspiration to any competitive gamer or athlete.

He is barely top ten based on results and imo in the current metagame not top tier.

Someone do me a favor. Tell me where I said Ryu is bad. You people need to learn to stop trying to infer my meaning. If I want to say something, please believe me I don't need a translator.

I speak plain simple English as to avoid such misunderstandings.

Whenever somebody argues that a character isn't as good as what the majority say he/she/it is, most people seem to interpret it as them saying the character is terrible. This is just another example of it happening. :V

 

[FullMoon]

Ryu is a great character with a lot of crazy things about him but he also has a lot of flaws that people seem to overlook a lot when talking about him except for, funnily enough, Ryu mains themselves.

Ryu is probably not a top 5 character but that doesn't mean he's terrible, far from it.

Also is falln really saying Rosalina has a +2 on Greninja? That's, uh, no.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryu is a great character with a lot of crazy things about him but he also has a lot of flaws that people seem to overlook a lot when talking about him except for, funnily enough, Ryu mains themselves.

Ryu is probably not a top 5 character but that doesn't mean he's terrible, far from it.

Also is falln really saying Rosalina has a +2 on Greninja? That's, uh, no.

Quite a good chunk of those numbers are lol worthy.

"volatile -" needs to move into unflavoured, as does several of the "volatile =" characters. And then multiple "volatile +" characters need to move into even.

If Rosalina actually had that MU spread, you'd see a looooot more of her.

 

[sedrf]

At the same time time out style sonic is really good .
Yet good sonics aren't as common. Maybe it's the whole no sonic on stream deal

Volatile means that do the nature of rosa's recovery/weight she can easily lose mus she canon aper beat

She can also abuse luma jank to make mus she either loses or has trouble with look more convincing

 

[my_T]

Quite a good chunk of those numbers are lol worthy.

"volatile -" needs to move into unflavoured, as does several of the "volatile =" characters. And then multiple "volatile +" characters need to move into even.

If Rosalina actually had that MU spread, you'd see a looooot more of her.

looks pretty good to me. I would move lucas up to the volatil+ group.

Who would you swap around?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Rosalina actually had that MU spread, you'd see a looooot more of her.

Only under the 'ideal' circumstance where everybody did whatever is necessary to win - in a perfectly competitive environment we would see a lot more of her. But in a metagame where Peach has better representation than Villager, DK has more than Pikachu and where Robin hasthe same amount of good players as MK does we're very far from such a scenario.

Also worth pointing out that the few people that actually do main Rosa all perform very well with her, very consistently. And there's virtually nothing on falln's matchup chart that strongly contradicts any of the observable data we have on her matchups.

 

[Ulevo]

Falln is a lot more correct than he is incorrect. I think people should consider this. The only reason the meta isn't being wrecked by Rosalina is because she is a complex character that seemingly no one wants to play in a game that has Mario and Cloud.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think a quality people don't utilize enough vs Ryu is how badly he gets destroyed if you PP vs his jump ins

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think a quality people don't utilize enough vs Ryu is how badly he gets destroyed if you PP vs his jump ins

I like you.

But see reactionary options are something Smash players just aren't hip too.

THEY WANNA GO IN PRESS STUFF!! LOOK AT DEM COMBOS BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIII!!!!!!

 

[Y2Kay]

Also is falln really saying Rosalina has a +2 on Greninja? That's, uh, no.

Yeah, Greninja looks out of place when put in the "counterpick" region. He has a big advantage over her in terms of mobility, can mess with her disadvantage state with little risk, Back air and dash attack kills Luma pretty efficiently, and his combos on her are pretty vicious at times.

I could be sold on the match up being a slight disadvantage, but I usually think of it as even.

falln would you mind giving an explanation?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm curious...

Who does Mii Swordfighter win against and why?

 

[my_T]

PP is godlike for characters that have a good one. I get a lot of mileage out of them when using dark pit, falcon, luigi, DK. Does wonders for all 3 states of play.

My favorite thing to do with PP is bait out whiffs and punish at close range. It reminds me of shimmying in SF

 

[TTTTTsd]

I like you.

But see reactionary options are something Smash players just aren't hip too.

THEY WANNA GO IN PRESS STUFF!! LOOK AT DEM COMBOS BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIII!!!!!!

The other difficulty with playing reactionary in this way is that you are not only perfect pivoting but contending with an inherent built in 6f of input lag. It's not quite SF5 in that regard but it does hamper certain defensive options, especially defensive PP ones.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I'm curious...

Who does Mii Swordfighter win against and why?

Too heavily countered by TOs to do much.

 

[PK Gaming]

Falln is a lot more correct than he is incorrect. I think people should consider this. The only reason the meta isn't being wrecked by Rosalina is because she is a complex character that seemingly no one wants to play in a game that has Mario and Cloud.

A.k.a Seth Syndrome from SF4.

(Though Rosalina is definitely a lot simpler than your average complex fighting game character, haha)

 

[soniczx123]

A.k.a Seth Syndrome from SF4.

(Though Rosalina is definitely a lot simpler than your average complex fighting game character, haha)

Explain Seth Syndrome.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Explain Seth Syndrome.

A character that's good and has a lot of potential.

Problem is, they're tough and complicated to play, so most people go to simpler or easier characters.

 

[PK Gaming]

A character that's good and has a lot of potential.

Problem is, they're tough and complicated to play, so most people go to simpler or easier characters.

This. I think "C.Viper syndrome" might be more accurate, but that's enough Street Fighter talk for now.

Incidentally, I really appreciate how easy is to pick up a character in Smash Bros. I know people riff on Smash for that fact all the time, but I think it'd legitimately be devastated if I couldn't play using my favorites.

 

[L9999]

I'm curious...

Who does Mii Swordfighter win against and why?

With that trash recovery, approach, juggle weight, and poor kill options I think no one. No one plays him at top level so no one has a clue really, just my opinion. Don't you dare bring up Trela, we all know his rant on why Texas sucks.

 

[blackghost]

This. I think "C.Viper syndrome" might be more accurate, but that's enough Street Fighter talk for now.

Incidentally, I really appreciate how easy is to pick up a character in Smash Bros. I know people riff on Smash for that fact all the time, but I think it'd legitimately be devastated if I couldn't play using my favorites.

that street fighter 4 reference. so few smashes have played other fighting games