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I personally don't think the lack of a combo throw is a big deal on Corrin since all of his other moves setup nicely into Fair / Up Air strings. Against whiffs for instance, Corrin can DL instead of grabbing and get a ton of free damage off of his followups from the kick. Having access to a kill throw is much more useful for him overall since killing is something I feel he does struggle with a lot more. Speed is a bit of an issue for him as well, but his amazing initial dash and range more than make up for it.
His attack range does not make up for his poor endlag, and sometimes awful start-up on some attacks. He's a good spacing character as long as he hits the tip, but otherwise, you're just a sitting duck with Corrin. And yeah, he can get a ton of free damage, but nothing will translate it into a kill attack since most of his free damage has the opponent in the air, and I doubt opponents would make the mistakes of air dodging or rolling on a professional level.
I believe any character with good ground movement or projectile game can handle Corrin. There are definitely some openings in between swords swings or after dragon lunge that characters like these can take advantage of.
Corrin will still be a popular character as long as there are impatient players out there who die trying to force their way through Corrin's zone.
How is Sonic not the best timeout character in any format? Wrath has demonstrated significant amounts of success using the strategy (managing to even timeout ZeRo in one game), and KEN employed it to defeat Tyrant.
When Abadango mained Pacman he would regularly timeout or near timeout while making top 8s at majors. In Japan there's a couple of other Pacmans now that employ the same strategy.
His startup''s pretty decent across the board (F5 Jab, 8/7/5 tilts, 17/13/13 smashes, 6/7/13/7/12 aerials, DL's F8). Fsmash is F17, but the charging hitbox comes out F12. F13 Bair is meh, I guess, but it's still decent.
His endlag is similar to Marth's. Take that as you will.
His attack range does not make up for his poor endlag, and sometimes awful start-up on some attacks. He's a good spacing character as long as he hits the tip, but otherwise, you're just a sitting duck with Corrin. And yeah, he can get a ton of free damage, but nothing will translate it into a kill attack since most of his free damage has the opponent in the air, and I doubt opponents would make the mistakes of air dodging or rolling on a professional level.
it really isn't clear where she is yet. pink fresh is an amazing player there aren't any other bayos i've seen near his level (haven't seen anything from salem recently) and if you play patiently she isn't nearly as effective. also not sure shes a top 10 becuase her mu spread is very very volatile. sonic, diddy, megaman, mario, tink, pikachu, are not in her favor and even her 50 50 mu with zss and ryu are extremely explosive because she cannot keep people out effectively. in general the general smash 4 community still doesnt seem to understand a lot of basic things about her.
it really isn't clear where she is yet. pink fresh is an amazing player there aren't any other bayos i've seen near his level (haven't seen anything from salem recently) and if you play patiently she isn't nearly as effective. also not sure shes a top 10 becuase her mu spread is very very volatile. sonic, diddy, megaman, mario, tink, pikachu, are not in her favor and even her 50 50 mu with zss and ryu are extremely explosive because she cannot keep people out effectively. in general the general smash 4 community still doesnt seem to understand a lot of basic things about her.
I'll be honest, I was waiting for your comment, because you seem to be very much 'against' Bayonetta, and I was interested in seeing your thoughts. Judging by your profile picture you either did or still do use the character or at least enjoy Bayonetta as a character, so I'd be interested in hearing some more in depth thoughts about her, if you don't mind.
Personally, I think the character is still very good, and still has a lot more room to develop as well. She was very similar to pre-patch Diddy or Luigi where maybe there were a few people advancing the characters meta past just abusing incredible strengths (ZeRo in the case of Diddy, Concon in the case of Luigi) but not enough to actually make a difference until she was nerfed. Maybe not top 10 right now, but definitely top 15 in my book. (Really though, top 5/10/15 are very limiting when it comes to good characters in this game and I wish more people would stop cutting off there just because they are easy round numbers to cut off at.)
His startup''s pretty decent across the board (F5 Jab, 8/7/5 tilts, 17/13/13 smashes, 6/7/13/7/12 aerials, DL's F8). Fsmash is F17, but the charging hitbox comes out F12. F13 Bair is meh, I guess, but it's still decent.
His endlag is similar to Marth's. Take that as you will.
I agree that a lot of his attacks are worthy of being called faster-than-average, but then you have attacks like Dash Attack, which is highly unreliable due to its endlag; its start-up is decent at frame 11 and its rehit rate is also good, but the endlag is punishable if all hits are blocked. But then I look at his tilts, seeing that they're okay in frame data; not too bad, not that amazing, just fine.
I know his aerials are pretty fast, except for B-Air, which is below average speed for a B-Air. At least it has its spacing and its power to compensate for it. Across the board, I still agree Corrin's frame data is decent, but it's not the thing that makes top 20 characters whatsoever. He doesn't have good frame data where he really needs it, but I guess it's justified since he has some extreme reach on his attacks. His aerials are among the best for sword fighters, and his normals are also fairly decent for themselves.
I was actually very curious about the Smash Attacks themselves, so I decided to do a little research on them.
==============================================
I decided to go where it really counts and compare every single one of the Smash Attacks (frame data only) of the Sword Fighters, and I've come up with the results, which will correlate with above as well.
Key:
(1) = Link and Toon Link's F-Smash Hit 1
(2) = Link and Toon Link's F-Smash Hit 2
(Levin) = Levin Sword
(Bronze) = Bronze Sword
This all took a lot of research into the frame data of the characters, and it only goes on the frame data. All of this took me a lot of research, time and making sure that I've got all of the data correctly, and the above is what the Overall Rankings are. I've done the research and from what I know, Corrin is in the bottom 3 in terms of Frame Data of their smashes, and it always comes down to him being a part of the lower eschelon of Smash Frame Data for sword fighters.
I've calculated start-up, endlag, combined them, then took the overall ratings and put them into a finalized tally of frame data in Smash Attacks. I'd surely compare all the frame data between the sword fighters to see which ones have the best frame data, but I'll acknowledge that their mobility also counts for them.
And no, ARGETH, Corrin's endlag isn't necessarily the same as Marth and Lucina's. You're counting it as FAF, which is the entirety of the move's frame data, but research shows that it's pretty different by themselves. Now do take this with a grain of salt, because again, like I stated before, mobility does matter and this doesn't calculate all attacks in general; I'd certainly research all of the attacks in general, but that would take nearly forever for me to complete. Sure, I've done it with 15 characters, but it took me nearly an hour or so to do just them in one section of attacks!
Again, for good measure, do understand that this is just Smash Attack frame data; it doesn't calculate damage, it ignores mobility of the characters, and is not indicative of everything the characters have to offer. I'll check on the other types of attacks later on, but I believe it would just take even longer to do it.
There are very few dash attacks in Smash 4 that are safe on block. Having that as a weakness isn't a huge difference (though having one that IS safe is a bigger deal, like with G&W).
I agree that there are very few SoB Dash Attacks, but there are some characters who'd take advantage of opponents who'd have high endlag on Dash Attacks. An example would be Kirby vs a Frame 10 or lower Smash Attack. Kirby would not like his Dash Attack being punished by anything like those speeds. An example of the opposite would be Pac-Man vs any attack. Pac Man's Dash Attack is very safe due to a rehit rate that is not too bad and an endlag that is phenomenal for a Dash Attack. Many attacks probably will not beat it out as punishes.
Is at least in top 20 for me. Pink Fresh has really shown how good she still is. But the clear lack of representation hurt those chances. She still has crazy combos and the threat of Witch Time is always in the back of your mind when fighting her. Her recovery is also still superb along with her ledge game.
In theory Id say Top 15, but bad MUs and few high level players say otherwise
I agree that a lot of his attacks are worthy of being called faster-than-average, but then you have attacks like Dash Attack, which is highly unreliable due to its endlag; its start-up is decent at frame 11 and its rehit rate is also good, but the endlag is punishable if all hits are blocked. But then I look at his tilts, seeing that they're okay in frame data; not too bad, not that amazing, just fine.
I still agree Corrin's frame data is decent, but it's not the thing that makes top 20 characters whatsoever. He doesn't have good frame data where he really needs it, but I guess it's justified since he has some extreme reach on his attacks.
Dash Attack sucks and that's why no one uses it; not integral to Kamui's gameplan at all. If it got removed no one would miss it. OK tilts is better than not having them, (ehem Palutena). No good frame data where Kamui needs it? Then Nair/Fair/Uair/Jab/Dtilt/UpTilt/Side Tilt/Dragon Lunge/Up B must suck.
But solo wise I suppose that narrows it down to about 10-15 charactersin the end. ()
Whoever is not in that block, on a very scrutinizing pedestal, is not viable if we are going all in.
But we have a lot of viable characters on the counterpick level! Characters here are either able of winning a top tier matchup or able to place top 8 in bigger events like regionals and rarely majors(Yeah, I hesitated to put him here but Regi has proven him in majors twice he can make it on this level)
Honorable mentions tier
Very honorable mention tier
These guys are not viable in the current metagame atm in any circumstances. Out of them I feel only Wario, Wii Fit , Samus,and Pac have any potential.
In a nutshell. Metagame is still evolving though so the beauty of this is that even Bowser Junior could at least join the 2nd tier soon enough.
Dash Attack sucks and that's why no one uses it; not integral to Kamui's gameplan at all. If it got removed no one would miss it. OK tilts is better than not having them, (ehem Palutena). No good frame data where Kamui needs it? Then Nair/Fair/Uair/Jab/Dtilt/UpTilt/Side Tilt/Dragon Lunge/Up B must suck.
I'd love it if dash attack was removed because then I would stop misinputting it...
Also, Up B's frame data isn't exactly great. It serves its purpose as a recovery move (and the intangibility frames are nice) but it really isn't that good offensively and is average as a recovery. It's sort of in the same area as DFS and Dair: Good at what it does, but not really that great overall.
But solo wise I suppose that narrows it down to about 10-15 characters in the end. ()
Whoever is not in that block, on a very scrutinizing pedestal, is not viable if we are going all in.
But we have a lot of viable characters on the counterpick level! Characters here are either able of winning a top tier matchup or able to place top 8 in bigger events like regionals and rarely majors(Yeah, I hesitated to put him here but Regi has proven him in majors twice he can make it on this level)
Honorable mentions tier
Very honorable mention tier
These guys are not viable in the current metagame atm in any circumstances. Out of them I feel only Wario, Wii Fit , Samus,and Pac have any potential.
In a nutshell. Metagame is still evolving though so the beauty of this is that even Bowser Junior could at least join the 2nd tier soon enough.
How is Sonic not the best timeout character in any format? Wrath has demonstrated significant amounts of success using the strategy (managing to even timeout ZeRo in one game), and KEN employed it to defeat Tyrant.
Optimal Mii Gunner is banned and Pacman has significantly less tournament representation than Sonic.
I'd also put forth the argument that there exist more situations where going for a timeout is optimal for Pacman but not Sonic, due to the former having a better recovery/offstage game and the latter having a better approach/kill game.
But solo wise I suppose that narrows it down to about 10-15 charactersin the end. ()
Whoever is not in that block, on a very scrutinizing pedestal, is not viable if we are going all in.
But we have a lot of viable characters on the counterpick level! Characters here are either able of winning a top tier matchup or able to place top 8 in bigger events like regionals and rarely majors(Yeah, I hesitated to put him here but Regi has proven him in majors twice he can make it on this level)
Honorable mentions tier
Very honorable mention tier
These guys are not viable in the current metagame atm in any circumstances. Out of them I feel only Wario, Wii Fit , Samus,and Pac have any potential.
In a nutshell. Metagame is still evolving though so the beauty of this is that even Bowser Junior could at least join the 2nd tier soon enough.
Marth is proving time and time again to be solo viable, more proof than characters like Villager or MK actually
Dr. Mario, Kirby, Charizard, and DH don't have potential? Charizard is slowly proving to be a viable counterpick character against Cloud and a lot of Charizard mains including myself think the Mewtwo matchup is slightly in his favor. He also does well against Bayonetta surprisingly.
Kirby is known to have good matchups with top tiers, notably Fox and Duck Hunt is on the rise in japan. Doc has godly frame data, a decent projectile, and a great combo game and has been shown to also work as a counterpick character
On the topic of Corrin, I find his damage outside of dumb stuff you shouldn't be getting hit by... Lacking. Two Fairs is 12%, for example. One of Lucina's is 10.5%, Marth's is 11.5% spaced. Cloud's Uair is 12%. Pit's Dair > Dair/Bair/Uair is practically double, 20% at least. I mean, different moves on different characters and all that but that's just what I'm seeing.
Dash Attack sucks and that's why no one uses it; not integral to Kamui's gameplan at all. If it got removed no one would miss it. OK tilts is better than not having them, (ehem Palutena). No good frame data where Kamui needs it? Then Nair/Fair/Uair/Jab/Dtilt/UpTilt/Side Tilt/Dragon Lunge/Up B must suck.
Corrin has good frame data, but when he/she needs it for kill moves, there's not much there. Corrin's normals and aerials are, for the most part, decent, but when he needs a very reliable kill move, it's mostly absent unless you land something akin to Dragon Shot's full charge bite, Counter Surge or a good hit with his smashes.
As for things you're wrong or slightly wrong with, Neutral Aerial might be Frame 7, but since it doesn't rehit and it cannot AC on SH, it's pretty awful on shield. Also, Dragon Ascent, while it has intangibility from 10-17, hits on 18, which is pretty slow.
On the topic of Corrin, I find his damage outside of dumb stuff you shouldn't be getting hit by... Lacking. Two Fairs is 12%, for example. One of Lucina's is 10.5%, Marth's is 11.5% spaced. Cloud's Uair is 12%. Pit's Dair > Dair/Bair/Uair is practically double, 20% at least. I mean, different moves on different characters and all that but that's just what I'm seeing.
Then you have Link, who can deal 24% with one F-Air, or 26% with a D-Air, and Shulk with Buster can just make Corrin shut up. I agree, Corrin's attack damage isn't all that decent, as he is lacking quite a lot of it. Even Shulk has aerials that'll deal more damage than Corrin's F-Air, although he is slower with frame data than Corrin.
The most powerful aerial Corrin has is B-Air, which deals 11% damage, but it starts at frame 13. Ike's B-Air is frame 7 and does 14% damage, Link's B-Air can hit twice for 16% damage due to its quick speed, Falco's B-Air is 13% damage, etc. So it's either Corrin's frame data is good and his damage is bad, or it's the other way around and in the middle.
He has the tools to take advantage of Mewtwo's ledge options, but winning neutral is too much of a struggle for him to actually win. It's probably his 3rd or 4th best top tier match up though.
He has the tools to take advantage of Mewtwo's ledge options, but winning neutral is too much of a struggle for him to actually win. It's probably his 3rd or 4th best top tier match up though.
His grounded mobility is comparable and his fair/bair are good tools in the neutral against Mewtwo for challenging his own fair and his dtilt. His jab is also great against Mewtwo when he actually does get in close.
It still is a struggle though, Mewtwo's defensive wall is more than a wall, its an entire fortress with a moat of shadowball's around it
These are some videos of @san. playing Mii Gunner. He is currently the best player with small Mii Gunner. In his most recent video, he was able to combo into gundash utilt from a super missile. The mobility boost from small Gunner is great for allowing Gunner to get combos from grenades, missiles, and bombs.
I have some of my own tournament gameplay footage from last year of Mii Brawler. Nothing special, but you can see how the character generally works. Everything links seamlessly together, but the character is slippery and his ground movement options are very limited, so it's a bit odd getting used to that at first. He generally sticks to the air, and covers his landings really well with nair + his incredibly air speed. Crossups are easy. Short hop-> double aerials can be useful. fair->upb is disgusting and dthrow->fair->upb is true at mid-midhigh percents.
I stopped using the character because of all the complaints I got. People wanted to quit playing. I worried for the longevity of my local community. I don't think he's the best character in the game, but he's easily top tier and completely destructive for local scenes to deal with. It wasn't sustainable.
I have some of my own tournament gameplay footage from last year of Mii Brawler. Nothing special, but you can see how the character generally works. Everything links seamlessly together, but the character is slippery and his ground movement options are very limited, so it's a bit odd getting used to that at first. He generally sticks to the air, and covers his landings really well with nair + his incredibly air speed. Crossups are easy. Short hop-> double aerials can be useful. fair->upb is disgusting and dthrow->fair->upb is true at mid-midhigh percents.
I stopped using the character because of all the complaints I got. People wanted to quit playing. I worried for the longevity of my local community. I don't think he's the best character in the game, but he's easily top tier and completely destructive for local scenes to deal with. It wasn't sustainable.
Emblem Lord
, wouldn't you agree that Ryu's lack of representation and results might make him lose grounds in terms of tiers? Other than Trela and some impressive runs from him and other Ryu players, what other major notable Ryu players and major tournaments (from current patch's release to now) does he have? For a character people consider top tier, he seems to have a lot of things that ring "Upper Middle Tier" to me, do you agree?
