Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

This. For some unknown reason, even a lot of top players think counterpicking is automatic and that opponents will be at a loss for what to do if you pick a character their character typically sucks against. Rosa vs Ness is only a true 80-20 if you have better match up knowledge than your opponent. If you play certain characters, you'll be fully expecting certain characters to magically appear when you're winning sets and if you regularly play in tournaments, you already know all the common pockets and their basic strategies. I'd argue that counterpicking is just a lot more intelligent in this game than past Smash games because most counterpicks in this game mean you have a slight edge and not the typical "you're going to get BTFO if your opponent is semi competent and has a basic understanding of the match up" that was very common in Melee and Brawl.

This. I have been CP'd with pocket Rosas a lot of times because the mentality is "Rosa-Ness is 100-0" and its obvious they don't have a single clue what they are doing, then I proceed to 2-stock them with gimmicks that shouldn't work on Rosa mains. And for top level example we can all remember Aba's failure of Rosa and MK.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I mean, how come 2nd at BEAST VI is seeded lower than 7th (Sodrek who he beat, and Light) and 9th (Ixis) for this tournament?

i'll take a wild guess here -- probably because Beast VI happened 5 months ago. there have been tournaments in Europe since then, the results of which probably affected the seeding.

 

[Yikarur]

I mean, how come 2nd at BEAST VI is seeded lower than 7th (Sodrek who he beat, and Light) and 9th (Ixis) for this tournament?

Sodrek is generally considered potential Top3 in europe. istudy lost to Light at Beast 6 and if they didn't manipulate the bracket (by accident most likely but the Orga was a mess) Light would've probably made it into the Top3 at Beast. istudy, Elaxiao and Ixis share the "they are amazing in their own country" thing while Ixis did amazing at NeoKan which deserved him the higher seeding for now but it doesn't make that much of a differences who is above who because the numbers are not 100% accurate as anyway. The seedings are to ensure that in quarters in the final bracket it's seeded by region (germans vs. non-germans)

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I'm really starting to believe Mario needs significant nerfs.

His recovery is too free (pretty much every other top tier except for Sheik/ZSS gets gimped a lot more than he does). Which is funny considering how his recovery has been considered so bad in previous games but with the removal of ledge hogging, its main weakness is gone. It comes out too fast to react to and with disjointed range, it's the ideal Smash 4 recovery. And let's not forget Mario's great drifting ability in the air means he can often come back without having to use his up B anyway with good DI.

People talk about him not having kill confirms and thus struggling at killing safely. But why do you need kill confirms when your Smash attacks come out insanely fast, with invincibility (on up smash), have huge hitboxes and have very little cooldown? I've seen Mario win top level matches by standing in the middle of the stage and hitting the C-stick until it worked. The very fact that this is a viable strategy at the highest levels of play shows how broken his Smash attacks really are. And then if for some reason you haven't killed your opponent by 150 by spamming Smash attacks, just take the free back throw.

Mario also likely has the highest (reliable) damage output in this game at this point. It's not uncommon to see him rack up 40+ percent thanks to landing one down throw. Which after all the nerfs is extremely rare for any other character. He's basically a way better ZSS with a way less punishable grab.

Lastly this point is never talked about but Mario's floaty nature makes him escape stuff for free that characters like Sheik, Cloud or Diddy (despite being so good) would be subject too. While other characters are getting true comboed for days, Mario either pops out or nairs/up Bs out. Except unlike other floaty characters he doesn't lack mobility.

Matchup wise I'd argue he really has no bad matchups at all. He might have some slight disadvantageous ones but none which are not doable.

He has way too many things going for him.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've seen Mario win top level matches by standing in the middle of the stage and hitting the C-stick until it worked

Then I call bull****, as if it was a top level match, that ****** would have been punished 24/7

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why is iStudying 5th seed?

I'm actually more surprised that germany decided to not seed quik above istudy. Dude has had pretty amazing results in germany this spring.

 

[Pancracio17]

sonic v mario matchup is looking super bad for mario fyi.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Then I call bull****, as if it was a top level match, that ****** would have been punished 24/7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asZSnMN3QMM#t=5m35s

Ally does this sort of thing all the time and you can't knock it because it works consistently.

Really, if you consider risk/reward what's the worst that's going to happen. Unless you're a character that kills directly off a grab, dash attack or jabs (as the very low cooldown+shield stun+pushback means that's all you're likely getting), you aren't going to do much to Mario even if it's blocked or whiffs but if he lands them you're dead.

sonic v mario matchup is looking super bad for mario fyi.

If the Sonic lames him out maybe. Which is pretty telling when even at top level, players are just choosing not to engage Mario at all because too many bad things happen when you do. At any rate I believe Zenyou has beaten Wrath before (people were discussing it in a recent twitch chat), it's possible Ally is just playing the matchup wrong.

 

[verbatim]

FWIW DK has both a better grab game and damage output than Mario. What makes Mario good is the high mobility/smallish profile that you uaually don't see on a character that has great damage wracking and good killing power.

He'd easily be the best character in the game if he had more disjoint or a good projectile.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm really starting to believe Mario needs significant nerfs.

His recovery is too free (pretty much every other top tier except for Sheik/ZSS gets gimped a lot more than he does). Which is funny considering how his recovery has been considered so bad in previous games but with the removal of ledge hogging, its main weakness is gone. It comes out too fast to react to and with disjointed range, it's the ideal Smash 4 recovery. And let's not forget Mario's great drifting ability in the air means he can often come back without having to use his up B anyway with good DI.

People talk about him not having kill confirms and thus struggling at killing safely. But why do you need kill confirms when your Smash attacks come out insanely fast, with invincibility (on up smash), have huge hitboxes and have very little cooldown? I've seen Mario win top level matches by standing in the middle of the stage and hitting the C-stick until it worked. The very fact that this is a viable strategy at the highest levels of play shows how broken his Smash attacks really are. And then if for some reason you haven't killed your opponent by 150 by spamming Smash attacks, just take the free back throw.

Mario also likely has the highest (reliable) damage output in this game at this point. It's not uncommon to see him rack up 40+ percent thanks to landing one down throw. Which after all the nerfs is extremely rare for any other character. He's basically a way better ZSS with a way less punishable grab.

Lastly this point is never talked about but Mario's floaty nature makes him escape stuff for free that characters like Sheik, Cloud or Diddy (despite being so good) would be subject too. While other characters are getting true comboed for days, Mario either pops out or nairs/up Bs out. Except unlike other floaty characters he doesn't lack mobility.

Matchup wise I'd argue he really has no bad matchups at all. He might have some slight disadvantageous ones but none which are not doable.

He has way too many things going for him.

What's this? Mario's strengths are good enough to make up for his weaknesses?

*Gasp* A good character?

...

Mario doesn't land smashes for free, half the time he does it's because his opponent was short-hopping recklessly. The counter-play to Mario's smash attacks is to play a keep-away game and / or to abuse attacks with large hitboxes. Thankfully a lot of top-tiers (and others) can do this: Rosalina has Luma, Cloud has better range and can camp for Limit, Diddy has his banana, Sheik has needles, Sonic outspeeds him, etc. As long as a character's weaknesses matter against the more relevant characters, they're fine.

Also I'm p sure Rosalina is solidly losing for Mario, evidence being Anti busting out MK against Dabuz at CEO.

About Mario and his susceptibility to combos, you also ignored the fact that unlike Diddy and Sheik, he lacks a flip-kick type special for an easy way out of disadvantage. While he's harder to true combo than them, he's probably easier to juggle because of that.

 

[Zelder]

*sighs* Well, how would you propose to nerf Mario/Sheik/Cloud/whatevercharacterisbotheringyoutoday? This will surely be an enlightening discussion, and it definitely won't be yet another retread of posters shouting into the void for nerfs that Sakurai will never hear.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asZSnMN3QMM#t=5m35s

Ally does this sort of thing all the time and you can't knock it because it works consistently.

Really, if you consider risk/reward what's the worst that's going to happen. Unless you're a character that kills directly off a grab, dash attack or jabs (as the very low cooldown+shield stun+pushback means that's all you're likely getting), you aren't going to do much to Mario even if it's blocked or whiffs but if he lands them you're dead.



If the Sonic lames him out maybe. Which is pretty telling when even at top level, players are just choosing not to engage Mario at all because too many bad things happen when you do. At any rate I believe Zenyou has beaten Wrath before (people were discussing it in a recent twitch chat), it's possible Ally is just playing the matchup wrong.

This doesn't prove 'mayreeoh op nerf plz' but proves people are idiots if he can get away with only smash attacks.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

FWIW DK has both a better grab game and damage output than Mario. What makes Mario good is the high mobility that you uaually don't see on a character that has great damage wracking and good killing power.

He'd easily be the best character in the game if he had more disjointa or a good projectile.

Dk's grab game is not better than Mario's for racking up damage. Plus Mario has an easier time getting the grabs. If you want to argue DK's individual hits and things like up B do great damage sure but consider how much more risky it is for DK to throw out any of that stuff. Mario lands one hit, strings it into 3 more and overall ends up doing much more to the opponent.

Also DK's kill confirm only works within a specific range of percents (once you exceed it, it stops working), won't work if he has too much rage AND doesn't work on everyone .

Lastly, I don't think his fireballs are bad at all. They can help him approach or stuff certain options. Not the best projectile by any means but far from the worst.

 

[verbatim]

At work so can't calc but I'd be shocked to see Mario do consistently more damage than cargo upthrow Nair Bair Bair. Also having the best kill confirm in the entire game (RIP mk) is absolutely a point in DK's favor, considering that they both have kill throws and Mario doesn't have as reliable a kill confirm.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm convinced that Yoshi is +1 against Mario.

I'm genuinely curious on this too. Think you missed Gravy's post

 

[JustSomeScrub]

This doesn't prove 'mayreeoh op nerf plz' but proves people are idiots if he can get away with only smash attacks.

So I guess since Mario's up Smash constantly works against top players, they are all idiots? Or maybe the move is just too good?

I mean when a move has invincibility, come out that fast and with a hit-box that good what are you really supposed to do? It beats short hops, dash ins, various grounded moves and can punish rolls, spot dodges (if they react and charge the move) etc. Name a universal option that's safe from Mario's up Smash aside from running away and being ultra lame.

It's easy to say just block.. But even if you DO block it, as I explained above, most characters can't punish it OOS well. Mario will happily eat 10 grabs/DAs/jabs that don't kill from blocked Smash attacks when he only needs to land one to kill you.

And let's not forget, it's not like Mario has a bad grab game (probably the overall best in the game). If you just block he'll just rack up tons of damage and/or kill you off grabs eventually.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

...Are people really crying over Mario now?

Really?

Diddy must give you aneurysms and PTSD by comparison then with his better neutral (banana in hand > pretty much every thing else in neutral in this game), range, ability to escape combos, and kill confirms. Don't even get me started on Diddy's Dtilt.

Mario is good yes. Very good. That's not a bad thing. He's fine. I swear every time a character wins a major tournament people start trying for them to be nerfed by looking at the character/aspects of the character in a vacuum.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So I guess since Mario's up Smash constantly works against top players, they are all idiots? Or maybe the move is just too good?

I mean when a move has invincibility, come out that fast and with a hit-box that good what are you really supposed to do? It beats short hops, dash ins, various grounded moves and can punish rolls, spot dodges (if they react and charge the move) etc. Name a universal option that's safe from Mario's up Smash aside from running away and being ultra lame.

It's easy to say just block.. But even if you DO block it, as I explained above, most characters can't punish it OOS well. Mario will happily eat 10 grabs/DAs/jabs that don't kill from blocked Smash attacks when he only needs to land one to kill you.

And let's not forget, it's not like Mario has a bad grab game (probably the overall best in the game). If you just block he'll just rack up tons of damage and/or kill you off grabs eventually.

next time I play Mario I'll spam upsmash. If I lose, you're ****ing wrong and owe me KFC

 

[JustSomeScrub]

...Are people really crying over Mario now?

Really?

Diddy must give you aneurysms and PTSD by comparison then with his better neutral (banana in hand > pretty much every thing else in neutral in this game), range, ability to escape combos, and kill confirms. Don't even get me started on Diddy's Dtilt.

Mario is good yes. Very good. That's not a bad thing. He's fine. I swear every time a character wins a major tournament people start trying for them to be nerfed by looking at the character/aspects of the character in a vacuum.

Mario has won the last 3 super majors between two different players. He also does well in Japan.

That's more than very good, that's results you'd expect from the best character in the game (not that I'm saying he necessarily is, just trying to explain the magnitude of his results).

At least you have a solid change of gimping Diddy. His side B at long ranges is definitely reactable and if you hit him out of his up B just once he's probably dead (that's why Diddy's usually opt for predictable high recoveries). And Diddy unlike Mario gets comboed for days.

next time I play Mario I'll spam upsmash. If I lose, you're ****ing wrong and owe me KFC

Make sure it's the reverse jump cancelled version for the maximum effectiveness. As the hitbox starts from the back and the invincibility is on his head.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I've generally noticed after whichever character wins the most recent tournament is "op" and needs to be nerfed, and if and when they do people just complain about the next threat. It's honestly a really bad mentality and people should just ignore it. And complaining about getting hit by someone spamming Usmash? The move has 28 frames of end lag, while it's not as big as most smash attacks you need to accept you can not punish every move. Plus And also quite often you get hit by Usmash because Mario read you doing a short hop or committing to an option then just blowing it up. You need to learn patience at kill percents, in fact I find most mid level players need to learn patience.

(Sorryfortherant)

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Things I'm seeing: Mario can spam smash attacks and win, Mario has free recovery, super good combos, etc.

Wanna know how to beat that? Don't let him touch you! It's simple. Mario can only really engage in his smash attacks, combos, etc. When he can actually touch you, and he doesn't have very good range either. Opinions though.

Literally, Cloud's hitboxes outrange, meaning you can outspace him and therefore he can't hit you, and you have blade beam weaving around for fireballs, I firmly believe Mario loses to Rosalina due to Anti busting him out, and the reason Sonic wins is because he darts in and out at random points, meaning a campy sonic can let Mario have stage control, and then can Mario hit him with his grab and smash attacks?

And if you have a problem with Mario's DThrow combos, how does ZSS's combos help you? They're basically better since ZSS has a stronger Up B and higher jumps (?)

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm really starting to believe Mario needs significant nerfs.

His recovery is too free (pretty much every other top tier except for Sheik/ZSS gets gimped a lot more than he does). Which is funny considering how his recovery has been considered so bad in previous games but with the removal of ledge hogging, its main weakness is gone. It comes out too fast to react to and with disjointed range, it's the ideal Smash 4 recovery. And let's not forget Mario's great drifting ability in the air means he can often come back without having to use his up B anyway with good DI.

People talk about him not having kill confirms and thus struggling at killing safely. But why do you need kill confirms when your Smash attacks come out insanely fast, with invincibility (on up smash), have huge hitboxes and have very little cooldown? I've seen Mario win top level matches by standing in the middle of the stage and hitting the C-stick until it worked. The very fact that this is a viable strategy at the highest levels of play shows how broken his Smash attacks really are. And then if for some reason you haven't killed your opponent by 150 by spamming Smash attacks, just take the free back throw.

Mario also likely has the highest (reliable) damage output in this game at this point. It's not uncommon to see him rack up 40+ percent thanks to landing one down throw. Which after all the nerfs is extremely rare for any other character. He's basically a way better ZSS with a way less punishable grab.

Lastly this point is never talked about but Mario's floaty nature makes him escape stuff for free that characters like Sheik, Cloud or Diddy (despite being so good) would be subject too. While other characters are getting true comboed for days, Mario either pops out or nairs/up Bs out. Except unlike other floaty characters he doesn't lack mobility.

Matchup wise I'd argue he really has no bad matchups at all. He might have some slight disadvantageous ones but none which are not doable.

He has way too many things going for him.

Do you just cry about every flavor of the month top tier?

 

[Marcbri]

I love how every German player is the best in Europe with their character just because they are the best in their country lol (not saying some of them aren't tho).

 

[Knife8193]

(In reference to the discussion a page ago)

It's actually a common misconception that TL's frame data is much better than Links (it is, but not by that much especially when considering power/range tradeoffs). I can compare these in a vacuum (along with brief move analysis).

Spoiler

Jab - TL's Jab 1 starts frame 6 with 20 FAF while Link's Jab 1 start frame 7 with FAF 28 (a result of the Jab nerf). Jab 2 and 3 are exactly the same frame data wise, but Link's jabs set up better for mixups (though none of it is really true and requires reads) and have more range. However both jabs are pretty slow, with TL having slight faster startup and less commitment (but less range) on his Jab 1. Before Link's Jab got nerfed I'd say his was better by a large margin, but now I'd say Link's jab is only slightly better only because of range/mixup potential.

Dash Attack - There is no debate here, TL's Dash Attack is much better being frame 9-11, FAF 40 while Link's Dash Attack is frame 20-23, FAF 57. Yes, Link's Dash Attack hits a lot harder but it is extremely telegraped and only "reliable" use is punishing missed techs after a falling nair. TL's Dash attack is a better burst/neutral option (something I wish Link had retained from Brawl).

Ftilt - TL's Ftilt is F9-13, FAF 34 while Link's is F15-19, FAF 38. Despite TL's Ftilt having faster startup, Link's Ftilt is overall more useful with more range, killing potential, and being safer on shield (because it does 13% compared to TL's 9% with comparable FAF). In pure frame data terms though, TL does win here.

Utilt - TL's Utilt is F8-12, FAF 26 while Link's Utilt is F8-12, FAF 36. Link's Utilt has similar startup but much worse FAF and combo potential than TL's Utilt (though it does kill and have better range). Overall TL's Utilt is better both frame data wise and overall.

Dtilt - TL's Dtilt is F9-10, FAF 23 while Link's Dtilt is F11-12, FAF 29. TL's Dtilt is a faster poke but doesn't lead into anything unless it trips (maybe it has combos at very low percents). Link's Dtilt is slower but has much more combo potential (leads into Uair/Up B until mid-high percents, 26/25% combo and technically his best low % punish without a bomb), damage, and range making it a safer poke on shield. Link's Dtilt also has a spiking property with sweetspot. (though its hitbox for hitting below the ledge is kinda bad). Despite being slower, Link's Dtilt is overall better.

Fsmash - TL's Fsmash 1 is F15-17, FAF 49 while Link's Fsmash 1 is F15-16, FAF 52. TL's Fsmash 2 is F12-14, FAF 50 while Link's Fsmash 2 is F12-13, FAF 68 (though this doesn't matter as much since you probably should not be going for Fsmash 2 if Fsmash 1 missed). TL's Fsmash has better KBG, but lower BKB, making is better for killing across the stage (it also does 2% more than Link's Fsmash combo). Frame data wise and overall, I'd have to give this to TL given the high damage, lower FAF, higher activeness (1 more frame than both of Link's Fsmashes), and killing ability. Link's only real niche over TL here is the larger range and ability to kill better near the ledge.

Usmash - TL's Usmash is F11-17, FAF 43 while Link's Usmash hits anywhere between F10-45 (10 frame gaps between each hit), FAF 78. While Link's Usmash does trade off activity, power, and range for poor endlag, overall TL's Usmash is better because it's much much less committal and only 1 frame slower startup.

Dsmash - Both TL's and Link's Dsmash is F9-10, FAF 50. TL's second hit of Dsmash comes out F17-18, while Link's comes out F21-22, with no difference in overall move endlag. Major difference is that TL's Dsmash sets up into the second hit while both of Link's hits have strong KB. Link's Dsmash has more range, is safer on shield, and is better for 2 framing (because it has more range). Frame data wise, the only difference is when the second hit comes out, can be both a good thing and a bad thing but overall negligible.

Grabs - Both come out Frame 12 (TL's grab is active till F18 while Link's is active till F17) with the same FAF of 62. However, Link's frame data on dash/ pivot grab is objectively better with F14-21, FAF 66/ F15-22, FAF 67 vs TL's F14-20, FAF 72/ F15-21, FAF 72 dash/ pivot grab. On top of that, Link's grab range is longer. When factoring in grab combos/followup into this, Link still has the advantage with throw combos at most percents, including a 50/50 kill confirm, though TL does have Bthrow as a kill option he doesn't get as much out of grabs before that. Overall, Link's grab and grab game is better than TL's.

Aerials - This is getting a bit long, you can reference Kurogane's site for specific frame data but:
Nair: Link's Nair is comes out one frame slower, has lower endlag, much lower ending lag and better AC window. It also has more combo potential and lingers long, at the cost of not being disjointed, but I think Link's Nair is overall better.
Fair: Both come out F14, though TL's Fair has less aerial endlag (likely because it doesn't have a second hit). Link's Fair's landing lag is much better at 12 vs TL's 18. Link suffer 23 frames of lag after Fair 2 and TL suffers 24 frames of endlag after Fair. At first glance it may seem like TL's fair safer, but the landing lag makes it unsafe on most grounded shields. TL's Fair does hit slightly harder than Link's Fair 1. Overall, Link's Fair is better in a vacuum simply because its safer, decent approach option, and can pressure platforms better.
Dair: This is no contest really, Link's Dair comes out faster, can be used offstage, safer on shield with bounce, less endlag on landing (you really shouldn't be landing with it anyway), and has more kill power.
Bair: Link's Bair has less endlag, starts up one frame sooner, and more combo potential. TL's Bair does more raw damage and is disjointed, but I think Link's bair is overall better both frame data and utility wise (neither is really that impressive compared to the top tier bairs in the game).
Uair: Pretty much the same frame data though TL has slightly less landing lag. TL's Uair has slightly less range (still pretty hard to challenge), but better kill potential. Slight advantage to TL overall, with negligible frame data differences.

Specials - Again, reference Kurogane for exact numbers.
Neutral special: TL's uncharged arrows have 5 less FAF than Link's but the same startup (F18). Fully charged, TL's arrows are slightly slower (this doesn't matter as much as uncharged arrows). Link's arrows travel faster (can lead to locks), but slow moving arrows can be good too in aiding a projectile wall and halting approaches. TL has the advantage frame data and overall.
Side special: Pretty much the same frame data, but TL's Boomerang is much more useful with slightly more damage and a returning hitbox. Frame data is equal, but overall TL's Boomerang is better.
Up special: Link's grounded spin attack is one frame faster (result of the buff), but ends one frame later. TL's grounded Spin attack is more active with the last hit on F51 as opposed to Link's last hit on F40. Aerially both start F8 with TL ending at F81 as opposed to Link's F82 (shouldn't matter since you should sweetspot the ledge either way). Link gets the slight advantage in frame data and overall given how powerful Spin Attack is as an OoS option (for characters with bad OoS), 1 frame can make a difference.
Down special: Both bombs generate on F17 with FAF 40, but Link's bombs explode 3.67 seconds from generation while TL's bombs explode 4.98 seconds from generation. Both characters have the same great item toss stats, though Link can bombslide. Frame data wise, the bomb pull itself is equal and overall its hard to say. In a vacuum, Link's bomb have more hitstun, blast radius, and help more for recovery, but can't play around with his bomb as long which mean he has to pull more bombs (which is pretty laggy for a non hitbox move).

TLDR version:

Jab: TL wins slightly in frame data, Link wins overall.
Dash Attack: TL wins in both frame data and overall.
Ftilt: TL wins in frame data, Link wins overall.
Utilt: TL wins in both frame and overall.
Dtilt: TL wins in frame data, Link wins overall.
Fsmash: TL wins in both frame data and overall.
Usmash: TL wins in both frame data and overall.
Dsmash: Tied in frame data, Link wins overall.
Grabs: Link wins in both frame data and overall.
Nair: Link wins in both frame data and overall.
Fair: Link wins in both frame data and overall.
Dair: Link wins in both frame data and overall.
Bair: Link wins in both frame data and overall.
Uair: Tied in frame data, TL wins overall.
Nspecial: TL wins in both frame data and overall.
Fspecial: Tied in frame data, TL wins overall.
Uspecial: Link wins slightly in frame data and overall.
Dspecial: Tied in frame data and overall (again, in a vacuum).

So basically, Link mostly has the advantage in aerials and grabs, while TL does better overall on the ground and with specials. Pretty balanced right? That's when the mobility differences and character attributes start to come in. TL can move much faster in the air and the ground, with a shorter hurtbox, offsetting a lot of his range disadvantages. This is why you'll see TL's fair and bombs being more threatening, despite those moves being worse/even with the Link counterpart. He can juggle better with aerials because his jumpsquat is 2 frames faster. The reason why TL is so much better than Link is mostly because of mobility, not because his moves or frame data are much better. You really can't understate how important mobility is in this game (remember how threatening Mewtwo became after his mobility buffs?). It's also part of the reason why characters like Greninja and Palutena can still be threatening despite pockets of poor frame data.

Frame data source:

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yes.
People are crying over Mario now.
I had suspicions.
Well.... I'm disappointed in myself, all of sudden.

 

[Thinkaman]

Cloud CLS is the only move I'd be openly in favor of nerfing.

There are a very small number of debatably overtuned moves that I don't particularly favor being nerfed, but if they got a haircut I'd say "Eh, makes sense." Mario u-smash, Diddy d-tilt, Cloud uair, and Rosa uair are the sort of rare moves that fall in that range.

Nerfs and buffs don't have to be binary things; binary words like "needs" get thrown around way too much, with most buff/nerf discussion revolving around unstated, implied target goals that are actually really ambiguous.


But Mario on the whole being a problem child that demands nerfing is ludicrous, even if we were to discover/conclude that he is the top character in the game. Mario, rather slap u-smash on the back of the wrist or not, is a perfectly fine balance target.


Edit: Do you have moves you'd like to see nerfed, or wouldn't mind if they were? Let's play a game--write down the list of moves, but don't post it yet. Wait exactly a full year, and then don't post them either. Never post them. And I won't infract you. That's the game.

 

[verbatim]

It's also worth noting that with such a big playerbase many people will have many opinions. You can't look at one post and make 20 more about how everyone with that opinion got to it in the same way.

There were a lot of people that wanted Sheik and Diddy and customs nerfed because they were losing to them (without much thought). That didn't disqualify the people who took the time to pour over results and VODs in order to make legitimate arguments.

If you don't agree with something, you should try to start a discussion about why you disagree or move on, instead of dismissing it and every opinion remotely like it.

 

[Yoshister]

So I guess since Mario's up Smash constantly works against top players, they are all idiots? Or maybe the move is just too good?

Or maybe the top players aren't taking on the move correctly. Top players aren't flawless, perfect players.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Yeah I actually kind of take back my post, I was pretty mean. I like the new rule you put in place Thinkman.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Cloud CLS is the only move I'd be openly in favor of nerfing.

There are a very small number of debatably overtuned moves that I don't particularly favor being nerfed, but if they got a haircut I'd say "Eh, makes sense." Mario u-smash, Diddy d-tilt, Cloud uair, and Rosa uair are the sort of rare moves that fall in that range.

Nerfs and buffs don't have to be binary things; binary words like "needs" get thrown around way too much, with most buff/nerf discussion revolving around unstated, implied target goals that are actually really ambiguous.


But Mario on the whole being a problem child that demands nerfing is ludicrous, even if we were to discover/conclude that he is the top character in the game. Mario, rather slap u-smash on the back of the wrist or not, is a perfectly fine balance target.


Edit: Do you have moves you'd like to see nerfed, or wouldn't mind if they were? Let's play a game--write down the list of moves, but don't post it yet. Wait exactly a full year, and then don't post them either. Never post them. And I won't infract you. That's the game.

The difference between Mario's up Smash and those other moves is they lose to certain options or require setups. Diddy's downtilt is going to lose to aerials and is pretty unsafe if blocked at point blank range. If it beat them, then I'd definitely agree it was the most broken move in the game.

Cloud and Rosa's uairs are great but first you need the opponent in the air, then still need to time and space them well to continue the juggle. Cloud can technically uair really low to the ground as well but as far as I know that's not safe on block at all.

But when it comes to Mario's up Smash for a lot of characters, it's like what can you really do aside from run away? And it's not just a question of punishing it, it's can you punish it well enough to deter Mario from throwing it out? Sheik can dash attack a Mario up Smash whiff a million times, who cares? That does little except make him stronger.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy's downtilt is going to lose to aerials and is pretty unsafe if blocked at point blank range.

Neither statement is really accurate. Not many aerials can just straight-up beat Diddy's dtilt head on and it's also pretty much the safest ground poke in the entire game. Most moves are unsafe if bloeckd at point blank range so that point is moot.

 

[ElectricBlade]

The difference between Mario's up Smash and those other moves is they lose to certain options or require setups. Diddy's downtilt is going to lose to aerials and is pretty unsafe if blocked at point blank range. If it beat them, then I'd definitely agree it was the most broken move in the game.

Cloud and Rosa's uairs are great but first you need the opponent in the air, then still need to time and space them well to continue the juggle. Cloud can technically uair really low to the ground as well but as far as I know that's not safe on block at all.

But when it comes to Mario's up Smash for a lot of characters, it's like what can you really do aside from run away? And it's not just a question of punishing it, it's can you punish it well enough to deter Mario from throwing it out? Sheik can dash attack a Mario up Smash whiff a million times, who cares? That does little except make him stronger.

You could do things like counterhit it. Whiff punish after the invincibility is over, PP back any tilt, spot dodge then punish, short hop air dodge for some characters like Marcina, extended dash dance then dash attack. There is always an option against something, even if it`s something universal like shield.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Neither statement is really accurate. Not many aerials can just straight-up beat Diddy's dtilt head on and it's also pretty much the safest ground poke in the entire game. Most moves are unsafe if blocked at point blank range so that point is moot.

I meant aerials from above are simply going to whiff punish it as the hitbox doesn't extend that high up. Mario's up Smash is a huge threat both on the ground and in the air.

Yes.
People are crying over Mario now.
I had suspicions.
Well.... I'm disappointed in myself, all of sudden.

Now? I've been saying Mario is underrated for months. For some reason people are okay with pointing out Cloud or Sonic's nonsense but give Mario a free pass despite his overall results being way better.

Maybe because he's Nintendo's mascot or because "Mario is the balanced mid tier like always" meme never really died.

But can we stop pretending Mairo is anything short of a bully now? Some of the best frame data in the game, high mobility, free recovery, great combos, braindead kill power etc. He's obnoxious. Only thing keeping him in check is lack of disjoints.

You could do things like counterhit it. Whiff punish after the invincibility is over, PP back any tilt, spot dodge then punish, short hop air dodge for some characters like Marcina, extended dash dance then dash attack. There is always an option against something, even if it`s something universal like shield.

None of those options are great punishes outside of spot dodge into w/e except that's not a punish, it's a read (the move comes out way too fast to spot dodge on reaction). It's not just a matter of punishing the move, it's how you punish it. Mario is not going to be deterred because he ate a couple of tilts or dash attacks that led into nothing.

If the move had 15-30 more frames of recovery time, it'd be a different story. Then most characters could get decent punishes on it reliably.

 

[Thinkaman]

If the complaint is that Mario U-smash is so safe that it's unpunishable, that's just not correct. The move has 27 frames of endlag, which is pretty great for a smash but nothing record-breaking.

Lots of characters have smashes that have comparable or better endlag windows. To the best of my knowledge, the best are MK F-smash and Ganon U-smash, which have two-thirds the endlag of Mario U-smash. (Mario U-smash is significantly faster on start-up, but that wasn't the issue in question. Those two moves also have superior range, damage, and knockback.)

 

[JustSomeScrub]

If the complaint is that Mario U-smash is so safe that it's unpunishable, that's just not correct. The move has 27 frames of endlag, which is pretty great for a smash but nothing record-breaking.

Lots of characters have smashes that have comparable or better endlag windows. To the best of my knowledge, the best are MK F-smash and Ganon U-smash, which have two-thirds the endlag of Mario U-smash. (Mario U-smash is significantly faster on start-up, but that wasn't the issue in question. Those two moves also have superior range, damage, and knockback.)

The difference is MK's fsmash can't be done directly out of a dash since it's an F-smash (outside of reverse pivots). You don't have to worry about random run up forward smash. Plus the hitbox doesn't anti-air nearly as well and it comes out a lot slower. Also correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't have invincibility either.

As for Ganon...the justification is very simple. It's Ganon. A mediocre character having a few polarising moves isn't too bad. Plus again, it doesn't have startup invincibility.

 

[HoSmash4]

No way, Ixis is gonna do work.

Abadango gonna body this tournament for free though

T gonna body Aba idc fam
If he gets past 5.99 Sodrek though

 

[verbatim]

You also can't really rank moves' "OPness" in a vacuum, imagine if Sheik and Ganondorf switched Smash Attacks.

 

[Thinkaman]

The difference is MK's fsmash can't be done directly out of a dash since it's an F-smash (outside of reverse pivots). You don't have to worry about random run up forward smash. Plus the hitbox doesn't anti-air nearly as well and it comes out a lot slower. Also correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't have invincibility either.

As for Ganon...the justification is very simple. It's Ganon. A mediocre character having a few polarising moves isn't too bad. Plus again, it doesn't have startup invincibility.

I don't think anyone is disputing whether Mario U-Smash is one of the best moves in the game--it's an incredible tool with almost no faults. But the idea that it's not punishable--not difficult to punish, but actually not punishable--just doesn't hold water in either theory or experience.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Can we just put 'X character that won a few days again is OP' in a red topic? Would save these headaches

 

[Thinkaman]

You also can't really rank moves' "OPness" in a vacuum, imagine if Sheik and Ganondorf switched Smash Attacks.

Smart money is on "both characters would be better." Fun thought experiment.

Can we just put 'X character that won a few days again is OP' in a red topic? Would save these headaches

Unfortunately, "don't talk about the thing we have the newest and most exciting data on" is not a reasonable request, no matter how prone people may be to overreacting.