Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

player ranking because why not

#1: Ally
#2: ZeRo
#3: Dabuz
#4: Abadango
#5: Mr. R
#6: Ranai
#7:Larry Lurr
#8: Nairo
#9:VoiD
#10: Kamemushi
#11:MK Leo
#12: ANTi
#13: Zinoto
#14: Earth
#15: Komorikiri

5 and 6 could be swapped
ANTi might be too low
Earth might be a bit high but he's had two better placings at supermajors than Komo and beat Komo in sets before EVO (and overall came far closer to being in the top 8 than Komo)
Serge might belong here

Tournaments Ally has participated in, 2016: 23
Times he's placed outside the podium in 2016: 4

 

[Murlough]

Point is, those all failed for the most part. Anti even said 2/3 is better for counterpicking, though I don't know why.

What I noticed was that when a player switched off at EVO, ZeRo to Shiek and Abadango to Rosa specifically, the secondary clearly wasn't at the same level as the person's primary main.

ZeRo's Shiek has been rusty since the patch and Aba's Rosa was levels below his Mewtwo.

For a counterpick meta to really work a player must have 2 or 3 characters at the same level. Having a top level Main is good and all but when a bad matchup comes along, and your back up isn't up to snuff, you are probably better off sticking with the original bad matchup.

 

[Aaron1997]

@Mr. Johan Japan has a few Tinks. Hayato being the best with Sigma trailing not to far behind and 3rd being Ri-ma. The northeast has Biddy but that's I know. EU I have no idea.

 

[TDK]

At EVO 2016, Hyuga lost his sponsorship with VGBootCamp due to allegations of sexual harassment towards a fellow smasher/streamer, VikkiKitty. Consequentially, Hyuga has been banned from playing in any US or Australian tournament for an unspecified amount of time.

Well, Toon Link's results are about to nosedive. Would Hyga's inability to enter American Tournaments (America is where all the internationals are), would thel ack of Toon Link results drop his position on the tier list due to his one really good main being banned?

 

[Peppermint1201]

I have no comment on your main point, but this source hardly covers the secondaries that -were- used. Kamemushi used some yoshi. Zero used some sheik. Abadango used a little bit of Rosa. Etc.

this source, SmashWiki, does not include secondaries used that did not win a game.

 

[Das Koopa]

Aba's Rosa got bopped, Kameme's Yoshi choked, and ZeRo's Sheik (as per usual nowadays) just didn't work.

It wasn't a secondary-friendly tournament, at the very least.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Jerm in Texas, and Muse in Oklahoma, each with decent set victories (MJG being MJG, Muse over Cheezeballer, the DK people oft think of when DKWill and Larry are excluded, constantly, and Jerm over Megafox recently)

Jerm is mostly taking names on Robin, Tink I barely see from him tbh. I've seen Gnes use Tink more than Jerm recently in TX.

 

[Aaron1997]

Another Dabuz Tier list

Mario top 3 and Marth top 10 is pushing it alittle. ( I do think Mario is top 5 but not top 3)

Corrin is to low, Luigi to high, Greninja to low, Kirby to low, Yoshi to low, DH to low but not by much, Shulk to low but not by much.

Also explain how Pacman being bottom 3 is acceptable?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I just love how he left out only the Miis and Lucina out of the picture.
Ouch.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Another Dabuz Tier list

Mario top 3 and Marth top 10 is pushing it alittle. ( I do think Mario is top 5 but not top 3)

Corrin is to low, Luigi to high, Greninja to low, Kirby to low, Yoshi to low, DH to low but not by much, Shulk to low but not by much.

Also explain how Pacman being bottom 3 is acceptable?

the most recent edition of Das Koopa 's weighted results-based tier list (drawn from Top 16s) pegs ROB as having the 22nd best results of all characters in the game, outplacing DK, Yoshi, Lucario, Bowser, Luigi, Villager, Duck Hunt, Pit and more. very disappointed in ROB's placement on this list despite that fact, especially considering ROB's theory and matchups compared to the characters Dabuz placed above him.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Another Dabuz Tier list

Mario top 3 and Marth top 10 is pushing it alittle. ( I do think Mario is top 5 but not top 3)

Corrin is to low, Luigi to high, Greninja to low, Kirby to low, Yoshi to low, DH to low but not by much, Shulk to low but not by much.

Also explain how Pacman being bottom 3 is acceptable?

You should not take what ones says seriously. Even if they are a top player. Just because they are, does not mean what they say is absolute. Dabuz thinks that Peach's counter is terrible. You call stuff like this terrible?

Go to 1:40 in this vid

Dabuz and/or alot of people in general might have never seen stuff like this and know the option is there. Most stuff is judged by the cover, and much so exploration. So from here a list like this is based on what one see's. Not what one actually knows. This is how I feel tier list are made in general.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I've never liked Dabuz that much as far as playstyle but oh my god, he sure is one hilarious dude.

His delivery with the line about shulk...so perfectly sarcastic and painfully accurate.

Dabuz , you are Omni tier funny. And your tier list isn't half bad either.

 

[Amadeus9]

Here is dabunz tier list with list of top players.

Oh and for anyone complaining about his placements he explained everything on stream. You should watch that before complaining

He mentioned a few times he wants to put Leo in top 20 but cant justify it yet because of lack of results

 

[Dabuz]

I've never liked Dabuz that much as far as playstyle but oh my god, he sure is one hilarious dude.

His delivery with the line about shulk...so perfectly sarcastic and painfully accurate.

Dabuz , you are Omni tier funny. And your tier list isn't half bad either.

Thanks bae <3

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh and for anyone complaining about his placements he explained everything on stream. You should watch that before complaining

Is there a link to the recording of this stream?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I still think Dabuz 's Reimu avatar is gud. Keep at it!
Anyway, yes, link would be appreciated! We should all aim to get more knowledge, here!

 

[Radical Larry]

I could make a tier list that's so undeniably crazy and it'd still be better than Dabuz's. Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me. Well, that and Bayonetta's position. But look guys, regardless of what explanations Dabuz can give about the lower tiers, don't take it seriously. His positions of characters in the bottom three tiers are just complete and utter jokes and wouldn't be indicative of what the tier list would even look like.

 

[TDK]

Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me.

As someone who actually plays Link, he is 100% bottom tier. Worse than Roy? that might be pushing it, though.

 

[C0rvus]

Guys, there's this lovely, very lengthy explanation set before you, and yet, you do the usual non constructive "x character too low, foh". Let's dig a little deeper, maybe? This is a top player list, so maybe don't write it all the way off like all the others because you're not in agreement with the same aspect you always are? *cough* Link is booty *cough*

Anyway, here's the vod for the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/78747282
It's long af lol

 

[Dabuz]

Just for an FYI, I don't think a single character in this game is "bad", even the bottom tier all have redeeming qualities.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I could make a tier list that's so undeniably crazy and it'd still be better than Dabuz's. Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me. Well, that and Bayonetta's position. But look guys, regardless of what explanations Dabuz can give about the lower tiers, don't take it seriously. His positions of characters in the bottom three tiers are just complete and utter jokes and wouldn't be indicative of what the tier list would even look like.

(looks at your mains)

Explains a lot of why you hate that tier list when it's not bad

 

[Amadeus9]

I could make a tier list that's so undeniably crazy and it'd still be better than Dabuz's. Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me. Well, that and Bayonetta's position. But look guys, regardless of what explanations Dabuz can give about the lower tiers, don't take it seriously. His positions of characters in the bottom three tiers are just complete and utter jokes and wouldn't be indicative of what the tier list would even look like.

Honestly dude is your smashboards account just a really long term troll? I really am curious. Earlier you wrote something about marths pivot fsmash being better than his ftilt for "spacing" as well. Please throw me a bone here

 

[Frihetsanka]

This is a top player list, so maybe don't write it all the way off like all the others because you're not in agreement with the same aspect you always are?

Not only is he a top player, but he's also the one bringing his laptop with him between games. He's quite analytical and thoughtful. Unless... welp. What if he's watching D.Va fanart
when checking his "notes"?

Bad jokes aside, even if I don't agree fully with every placement in his tier list I think he brings up some interesting points. It's worth discussing, anyway.

 

[Amadeus9]

Honestly top 10 Marth is kinda reasonable to me and I hate to write that lol. I have considered him 20 ishhh for a while but seriously this characters results are scary. Theory is kinda scary too.

oh also palutena placement shouldnt be controversial js

 

[Ropalme1914]

I could make a tier list that's so undeniably crazy and it'd still be better than Dabuz's. Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me. Well, that and Bayonetta's position. But look guys, regardless of what explanations Dabuz can give about the lower tiers, don't take it seriously. His positions of characters in the bottom three tiers are just complete and utter jokes and wouldn't be indicative of what the tier list would even look like.

What's wrong with Bayo position?

 

[Ninety]

Dabuz , you are Omni tier funny.

What did Dabuz ever do to you?

 

[TDK]

What's wrong with Bayo position?

Probably because it's higher than Link.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I understand the reasoning of the placements, but I think Dabuz in particular is very bad about recency bias.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I could make a tier list that's so undeniably crazy and it'd still be better than Dabuz's. Link at bottom tier, worse than Roy. That's the indicator of BS to me. Well, that and Bayonetta's position. But look guys, regardless of what explanations Dabuz can give about the lower tiers, don't take it seriously. His positions of characters in the bottom three tiers are just complete and utter jokes and wouldn't be indicative of what the tier list would even look like.

Please make a tier list, please Radical Larry. I'd love to hear your opinion on this matter.

Although, how is Link not worse than Roy? That brings me to another question. All the Marth vs. Lucina talk going on in here a few days ago, it makes me wonder. Does Link do anything better then Toon Link besides be heavier and have more kill power? (Except not really because actually landing a killing blow as Toon Link is way easier.)

Seriously, I like Link better, though I don't play either Link in this game so if Link has even a single advantage please fill me in.

 

[Amadeus9]

I understand the reasoning of the placements, but I think Dabuz in particular is very bad about recency bias.

Its not really recency bias when he said he was only considering recent results on stream lol

 

[Yonder]

Marth just seems too difficult to stick in the top ten when these guys exist

That should actually be cemented based on all the results and theory seen, even over the years. Marth is for sure not better than any of these characters.

Then he has to compete with these guys......uhh...(bound to drop)(He is on the rise)

Those last 6 are very subject to change with the exception of Mega Man. Top 15-20 is very realistic for Marth.

Alao isn't it true that some of Cloud's aerials do more damage than tippers Marth aerials? That kind of hurts.

Someone educate me on what Marth offers over Cloud, actually besides a better recovery in some situations and shield breaking prowess.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Someone educate me on what Marth offers over Cloud, actually besides a better recovery in some situations and shield breaking prowess.

His edgeguarding is a little better. His ground game is better for spacing. But I think most people would take bonkers mobility and kill power over those few things Marth does better. If they wanted to win, that is.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Someone educate me on what Marth offers over Cloud, actually besides a better recovery in some situations and shield breaking prowess.

Marth can swing in a safer manner then Cloud. Marth Fair is 6 frames. Good range. Cloud does not have anything like that in front of him. Cloud won't really win alot of air battles unless he RAR nairs. And this can still be a gamble sometimes. Cause it is only one frame faster. If it's not times right, he could leave his whole back exposed. His nair is frame 5 but starts from behind him. So If Marth is within that range, He can swing more freely then Cloud.

If you see Tweek Vs Mr.E, most of the time when both of then started the air battles, Mr.E usually beat Tweet with Fair. Marth feels like the quicker zoner to me then cloud as well as a faster pressure game. So anyone who has good range in front out classes Cloud in this area. Marth pokes are also better then Cloud to keep or crack pressure.

So over all Marth Neutral game is better then cloud. Cloud just harasses people much better when he gets a hit in my eyes. And can get better kills. Most of Marths better kills are tippers. With Cloud, you have many options to finish someone off.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Marth's aerials ooze kiil power, not NEARLY to the extent of Limit Side-B but unlike that move they're always there.

Yes Cloud is better but the nuances Marth offers include tipper kills (sometimes at REALLY low %, heh), Ftilt. Did I say Ftilt? Ftilt. Most of his aerials kill, he has a much, MUCH better ground game than Cloud (Dtilt, Jab alone, not even counting Ftilt) and he can afford to go out and edgeguard more.

 

[ARGHETH]

In case anybody's curious, Dabuz thinks Link's not bad, but has a terrible disadvantage and recovery. He also said something along the lines of him being near last if he didn't have bombs.

Alao isn't it true that some of Cloud's aerials do more damage than tippers Marth aerials? That kind of hurts.

Fair, Bair, and Dair do.

 

[ReRaze]

Does Link do anything better then Toon Link besides be heavier and have more kill power? (Except not really because actually landing a killing blow as Toon Link is way easier.)

Seriously, I like Link better, though I don't play either Link in this game so if Link has even a single advantage please fill me in.

Firstly he has a much better Dair which does alot damage, knocback whilst having a pretty big hitbox and lasting forever and most importantly it doesn't kill him for using it offstage.

Also I wouldn't straight away write off Link as being worse at killing,
-jab > kill moves still work,
-he's got a semi-decent hoohah and throw combos in general, something Toon Link lacks.
-his Up B is much better for killing people who over extend near the ledge or offstage.
-His tilts kill really early especially with rage and have quite a wide swing + disjoint which imo easily make up for the speed of toon links.
-There's also tether trump > dair which is a lethal true combo.
-Bomb > Kill setups aren't exclusive to toon Link, and in some scenarios Link's are more dangerous e.g bomb > dair.
-If it comes to it, his uthrow kills, Toon Link needs to be by the ledge.
-if he gets a read or punish on you with fsmash consider your stock finished, that move is ridiculously strong and considering Links weight and how strong the move is, its probably worth throwing out once in a while (not when you're at kill percents), like the risk:reward ratio is really good (against most characters).

Literally the only ways I ever see Toon Link kill is boomerang/bomb > fair, usmash or a bthrow. which while good aren't too many options to work with.

Of course his frame data and mobility hinder him alot but he does have his perks over Toon Link.

 

[TDK]

Another thing about Link (Though I'm not sure how to use that) is if you use Up-B on a platform and are pushed off of a platform without knockback (like being walked into), you get the aerial animation while travelling downwards.

 

[outfoxd]

Dabuz seems like he wants to put DH higher but all results are overseas. DH being a zoner with a damn good grab and shield pressure pulls him along. There's just gotta be something to it and I wish Yusan and Raito would regularly make the trip.

 

[Rizen]

Link's recovery isn't bad, middle tier imo, but Rosalina is particularly good at exploiting it. Link has good disjoints but her halos plow through them
Link has pretty good recovery options vs most of the cast with FF>airdodge>tether the ledge, big disjoint on Fair/Dair, boomerang and bombs. The recovery ranking thread has Link right next to TL.
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/

 

[C0rvus]

Link is one of the meatiest characters in the game. Seriously, ftilt, dair, fair, up air, up smash... So many active frames, and they all kill to some extent. Some throw combos, a little item game, two quick and lagless aerials in nair and bair. He's got quite a bit going for him. He's also combo food, and has a near inability to compete in close quarters. He's like, only effective in mid range, and even then he gets beat out of that range by a lot of characters. Marth, Shulk, Cloud all outbutton him. Yes, his zone is extended by Boomerang and Arrows and Bombs, but he seems to have a hard time getting into his zone, with low ground speed and bad jumpsquat frames. Low tier, but not garbage. He still does what he's supposed to and has his niche.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention... Bombs. Link's bombs are worse than Toon Link's not just because of Link's inferior mobility, but the fuse is shorter. This does make them better for recovery, though.