Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

Mario? Top 3?
You think Mario is better than any of Sonic, Fox, Cloud, Sheik or Diddy?
Really?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Personally, I wish 8BitMan would charge gyro more. He tends to just throw out an endless stream of hitboxes to zone the opponent, but I think charging gyro is valuable because it increases the effective unreactable range (by increasing the projectile speed), while also creating a threat and forcing options in neutral while keeping ROB's options fairly open. I'd also like to see him utilize more tech like grounded reverse gyro, which I think is very practical. He has at least started to utilize z-drop aerials, which I am very happy about.

Also, all the top ROB players have different styles and I'm not sure what style is the most optimal; different styles are probably optimal for different MUs. I think his ledge trapping is still under-developed, but that is likely because his simple BNB traps still work far too consistently even in high level gameplay; it pains me every time ROB rolls to the ledge to predictably set up the reverse gyro, and then the opponent just does regular get-up into it and gets hit by usmash.

---

I'm also curious about Ness. To me, he was a character with mediocre theory, but his top level results were too solid to ignore so it was difficult to argue that he wasn't right below the top tiers. However, Ness' recent results have been mediocre at best, and it seems that the original theory was correct and Ness' fundamental problems are finally showing through. I'm curious what his MU spread with the top tiers looks like, and if he has any redeeming MUs with them or if he can be safely considered worse than a character like Toon Link.

top rob player's gyro game to me is very lacking. Gyro game could use a huge boost in development

 

[Ethan7]

Mario? Top 3?
You think Mario is better than any of Sonic, Fox, Cloud, Sheik or Diddy?
Really?

Mario being better than three of those characters isn't impossible. In top level play, Mario is better than Sonic, Fox and Cloud in terms of results, I'd say. Mario being better than Rosalina and Luma isn't too hard to sell either since Meta Knight can cause a lot of trouble for them. Diddy and Sheik both have great results right now, but Mario mains still won EVO and CEO. Also 2nd at Pound and 1st GOML. He never really was nerfed unlike other top tiers, and has a great combo game and frame data. Who says he can't be top 3? Ally and ANTi?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Both theory and results place Mario outside of top 5.

 

[Nu~]

top rob player's gyro game to me is very lacking. Gyro game could use a huge boost in development

Pretty much every top player that mains a character with items bar Kamemushi needs to develop their item game more.

Abadango was starting to lead the way but he dropped pac. Gingko and Tea have awesome item games...but neither of them show up to tournaments...

 

[Luco]

Mario? Top 3?
You think Mario is better than any of Sonic, Fox, Cloud, Sheik or Diddy?
Really?

Eeeeeyup. Well, Sans Sheik and Diddy. They're the top 2 in my opinion, even though I agree Sheik's fatigue factor is a thing. As for Sonic, I mean no disrespect. Japan is immensely strong and their meta has to be taken seriously. But balance is key. There are strong, very strong Sonic players around the world but it's not consistent enough for me to call the blue blur a top 3 character and his MUs seem to reflect that. Cloud is slowly beginning to fall out of favour, I don't know if I need to re-tell the narrative that most people figured out for themselves but even without EVO's influence it was becoming obvious he wasn't the top-level dominating threat he was at release. And Fox, like Sonic, is strong, but juuuust not strong enough and, like Sonic, his MUs also reflect that.

Who is more solid than Mario? Who is truly stronger? Going back to Das Koopa's rankings, Mario was 4th behind Sheik, Diddy and Cloud in top 8's, and that was before EVO definitely and (I think?) CEO.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Both theory and results place Mario outside of top 5.

Results as of when? Results from anywhere before patch 1.1.5 in general mean little now. Mario has gained a ton of momentum ever since 1.1.5. It's no stretch to say he has a shot at top 5 now.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Honestly anyone who says Mario isn't Top 5 at this point is going to come off as sounding contrarian for the hell of it.

The results are there.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Both theory and results place Mario outside of top 5.

What theory and what results? Much like Bowserboy3 said, he has the results and the players to back it up, now.
I've been thinking Mario could've been 5th or higher even since before he got all of these great results, but now I'm just sure of it.

 

[Das Koopa]

impressions of ZeRo/Nairo/Kameme's runs

I might do more later

ZeRo

Set wins against:

Spoiler

Win:
-WOFLz
-Toronto Joe
-Dhir
-ExJORDANary
-Champ
-Zenyou
-Salem
-Hyuga
-Komorikiri
-KEN
-Earth
-Larry Lurr
-Abadango
-VoiD

Loss:
-Mr. E
-Kamemushi

While it's highly debatable where he and other players currently rank, this was a performance that rivaled ZeRo's incredible Loser's Bracket run at GOML. Third place with this record proves that he still has what it takes to be #1, but one of his main roadblocks seems to be getting tripped up by players you'd never expect. Seagull Joe, Mr. E, Prince Ramen, etc.

When he was playing at his best, he looked unstoppable, with shades of EVO 2015. He 2-0'd the vast majority of his opponents, including everybody from Hyuga onwards until his 0-3 loss to Kamemushi, who he simply seemed unable to find an answer for. As with Ally v. Abadango at Pound, I can't help but wonder if some matchup unfamiliarity came into play, especially with a Mega Man as top level as Kameme. It's hard to say.

ZeRo's still in the top 3 and arguably is still #1, as the majority of his set losses continue to be extremely good players, and he's demonstrated the ability to adapt and return the favor (see; 2-0 Larry Lurr). A lack of consistency with other players in another major factor.

Nairo

Set wins/losses against:

Spoiler

Win:
-NewMove
-Cybrus
-DeathBat
-NSM AC
-DA Sinji
-DJ Jack
-HIKARU
-Ito

Loss:
-Ranai
-Larry Lurr

..A relatively unimpressive run, unfortunately, as part of a longer track record of Nairo getting disappointing placements compared to his best. HIKARU, DJ Jack, and Ito are all strong opponents, but Nairo is pretty clearly favored on any given day against any of them, either due to MU favor (HIKARU) or just generally being the better player (vs. Ito and Jack)

He fought hard against Ranai but hearing he lost to Lurr is somewhat disappointing. His placement is one of many that's "low" due to the caliber of opponents he was forced to face, but his record simply doesn't justify his #2 on the PGR at this point.

Kamemushi

Set wins/losses:

Spoiler

Win:
-Jumpsteady
-Rockyrodent
-Ikez
-FSLink
-The Weasel
-False
-Shaky
-Mr. R
-Earth
-VoiD
-ZeRo

Loss:
-Double eliminated by Ally

A very impressive run with an asterisk on two certain wins - VoiD and Mr. R. Regrettably, both players were victims of SDs. With VoiD, it was very clear that he had game 1 as Kameme had to clutch it out in spite of VoiDs SD, and there's no real telling how the match would've played out if VoiD had comfortably won game 1, since game 2 would've been on Kameme's counterpick.

With Mr. R, there's no real telling how the set would've played out. Both players had good neutral exchanges, but Mr. R was uncharacteristically shaky in the match, with several flubs and errors. I'd like to see a rematch with him at his best, because this was an ultimately disappointing result for Mr. R while Japan simply remained in their element.

His win against Earth is really interesting, and one thing that hasn't gotten much talk is Earth's run - Earth was one solid hit away from defeating Kamemushi, and it would've been fascinating to see if Earth could beat VoiD or Ally. Alas, he got thrown into the shark pit against a mad ZeRo.. so... yeah RIP.

Kamemushi's run definitely highlights that the hype and rankings were justified, though - wins against False and Shaky are pretty big considering how good those players are, and his wins against ZeRo and Earth were entirely unquestionably strong, and in spite of VoiD's SD, Kameme and him still played evenly in Winner's Semis game 3.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Das Koopa's rankings for Mario actually had Mario at #6 iirc when he posted the pie chart and graphs the other day.
So results would be keeping him out of top 5.
and theory wise Mario's still has trouble with both disjoints and characters with dominant ground games. There's multiple strategies he just has no real non-aggressive answers for, and the Plumber is notably unimpressive if the opponent plays a strong anti-grab game.
Pay close attention to a lot of the tournament sets people play against, say, Ally.
A strong amount of deaths is due to choking and doing something stupid(NAKAT DI in on Mario dthrow at the edge at kill %) or forgetting the character's weaknesses(jumping into him in a 100-100 situation). If people stopped focusing on trying to counter his strengths instead of exploiting his weaknesses I feel like Mario wouldn't seem anywhere near as impressive as you make him out to be.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why is Fox better than Mario?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem with Mario is that while he can win tournaments solo on account of his consistent matchup spread he can also place 49th at a different tournament for much the same reason. One time he wins against the best Sheik, Diddy and Mewtwo, the other he gets camped to death by Sonic or janked by DK.

I personally have him barely outside of top 5 and I think it's quite preposterous to call out people that don't see him as top 5, especially since you likely won't know their reasoning. I think Sheik and Diddy are #1 and #2 respectively and currently in a league of their own. Then I have Rosalina and Mewtwo as 3rd and 4th followed by Fox as 5th. None of that can be called unreasonable so please no more catcalls for not having Mario at top 5. It's not "contrarian for the hell of it" by a long shot.

Hippieslayer

Fox has been top 4 on Das Koopa's rankings for the last three months straight!

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why is Fox better than Mario?

busted damage output
best landing traps in the game
has a better mu spread(7:3 on multiple heavies, blowout matchups against characters with bad frame data or ledge options, etc)
only 2 losing mus vs top tiers(6:4 sheik and rosa)
godlike frame data. frame data on 3 moves alone(jab, dash attack and utilt) stuffs out any character sans-Ryu trying to out button him in cqc
one of the best advantage states in the game
fair footstool destroys multiple characters and is an insane comeback/game sealing technique
2nd best ledge traps in the game
one of the best juggle games in the entire game
etc

 

[Das Koopa]

results score places Mario at 5 by now or at the cusp of it, basically equal to Fox

if we accept that Cloud really isn't top 5 at all based on his bad track record at a grand total of 3 supermajors in a row since his release then maybe we can agree that Mario is top 5 or something

 

[Bowserboy3]

results score places Mario at 5 by now or at the cusp of it, basically equal to Fox

if we accept that Cloud really isn't top 5 at all based on his bad track record at a grand total of 3 supermajors in a row since his release then maybe we can agree that Mario is top 5 or something

That's interesting then. If we don't consider Cloud top 5, I assume within there, we would have Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Fox, and... who then?

 

[Das Koopa]

That's interesting then. If we don't consider Cloud top 5, I assume within there, we would have Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Fox, and... who then?

sanic maybe

or Rosa

I'd need time to think on that

 

[Thinkaman]

The Hyuga controversy was community-shaking enough that, like Iwata's passing, it merited brief discussion even here--which has now passed.

I'm using my Red Name Powers to put in the last word on the topic, which is that there's a silver-lining in all of this: In my opinion the community responded to this incident very well and appropriately, and helped Vikki (who herself handled it all most admirably) achieve her stated goal of preventing incidents like this from happening in the future. I hope it is clear to everyone, inside the community and out, that this is a culture where it is okay to speak up and no one must remain a victim.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's interesting then. If we don't consider Cloud top 5, I assume within there, we would have Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Fox, and... who then?

Rosalina or possibly even Mewtwo. They've been showing some incredible results, and their theories (which don't determine much) can support them being possibly a part of top 5. Another contender of top 5 would be Sonic, but that's more of a stretch.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Rosalina.

I just don't see how Rosalina can be top 5 when this character exists... . No other top tier has a matchup as abysmal as this one. Heck, maybe we should be considering Cloud to be number 5, regardless of his results. At least he doesn't have such a volatile counter.

Like, Rosalina is my main, so I am very defensive about her. That said, I do feel that her matchup with Meta Knight is something that should always be in the back of our minds. She has the tools to dominate most of the cast, including top tiers, but this matchup is one that can utterly neuter her.

I personally place Rosalina at 6th place. I wouldn't place Sonic higher than Rosalina, even considering her Meta Knight matchup, because Rosalina still places higher and gets more results than Sonic overall.

 

[Das Koopa]

It is worth pointing out that S2H of all people nearly sent Dabuz to losers in Round 2 pools.

 

[Luco]

He was at around 6th for the rankings, correct, but I'd wager that will have risen, and his results on top 8 placings were 4th.

I agree there are flaws, but this is the same problem that we see so clearly when we talk about the lower tiers. People say "My character does this and that so they can't be bottom x". The question is more about relevance. Do these weaknesses apply to Mario and keep him in check more than other weaknesses of other top tiers do? There's a reason people choke against this character when theoretically they shouldn't. I feel as though Mario's mobility and ability to just out-damage other characters saves him in most MUs he would otherwise have serious trouble with.

EDIT: Well, there you go.

 

[Bowserboy3]

He was at around 6th for the rankings, correct, but I'd wager that will have risen, and his results on top 8 placings were 4th.

I agree there are flaws, but this is the same problem that we see so clearly when we talk about the lower tiers. People say "My character does this and that so they can't be bottom x". The question is more about relevance. Do these weaknesses apply to Mario and keep him in check more than other weaknesses of other top tiers do? There's a reason people choke against this character when theoretically they shouldn't. I feel as though Mario's mobility and ability to just out-damage other characters saves him in most MUs he would otherwise have serious trouble with.

Mario's damage output is overall below average.

However, his combo ability makes up for this.

I think this is part of the reason pre-patch Luigi's combos were so oppressive (KO confirms aside) He could combo you forever, but his moves also dealt respectable damage too.

Now, one of his main combo moves (Fair) deals less damage per hit, he cannot get quite as many hits in on you per combo, and he combos you for a slightly smaller amount of time.

But back to Mario, I feel that his weaknesses do keep him in check, but more so in specific matchups. Mario's biggest flaw for me is his lack of a KO setup. He basically has to fish for that kill. Imagine if he had even something like Dthrow to Bair... ouch.

Characters that can out camp him without the use of projectiles can also give him some jip (Sonic, for example).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The question is more about relevance. Do these weaknesses apply to Mario and keep him in check more than other weaknesses of other top tiers do?

If they can cause the guy who wins EVO to place freaking 49th at the previous international tournament it could very well by the case. It's not like Ally is an inconsistent player or had a slump just before EVO.

 

[Frihetsanka]

if we accept that Cloud really isn't top 5 at all based on his bad track record at a grand total of 3 supermajors in a row since his release then maybe we can agree that Mario is top 5 or something

If Cloud isn't top 5, then what are his bad match-ups? Sheik, sure, Mega Man, perhaps. What else? Also, let's not forget that Mew2King dropped out of both CEO and EVO for various reasons. He got 5th at GOML. I don't think Mario, as a character, is stronger. I think Ally and ANTi are stronger Smash 4 players than the Cloud mains. Results are important, but they don't say everything.

Seems Dabuz's top 5 is: Diddy Kong, Mario, Cloud, Sheik, and Sonic (Fox #6), based on his current live stream. He might update it later though. Of course, Dabuz could very well be wrong.

I think Cloud is still top 5, probably top 3. His moves are so strong and he doesn't have many bad matchups at all.

 

[Jexulus]

That's interesting then. If we don't consider Cloud top 5, I assume within there, we would have Diddy, Sheik, Mario, Fox, and... who then?

Certainly not Mewtwo, that's for sure. Mewtwo has the "Pikachu" problem in that only one player has been getting fantastic results with him, but players like Rich Brown are demonstrating that it isn't just Abadango carrying him at major tournaments, and players like Mew^2, Blue, Wadi, etc. are bolstering his numbers.
I consider the notion of trying to stuff every great character into the game's top 5 absurd, which is why I try to talk about rankings in broader terms. Diddy and Sheik are only undoubtably the best because they still have enough representation and the loyalty of their player base from their sheer legacy. I think Mario, Fox, Mewtwo, Rosalina and maybe Sonic and Cloud would all have an argument for "best character" if players adopted them en masse like they did with Bayonetta pre-nerf or the aforementioned Diddy and Sheik way back at the Wii U version's release.
Basically, I think "top whatever #" and "best character" discussions are malarky and we should stop trying to stuff all of the game's top tiers into a such a small space.

 

[Mr. Johan]

@ Toon Link, I feel I have to mention that MJG is picking his old Brawl main back up to use for specific purposes.

Between him, Jerm in Texas, and Muse in Oklahoma, each with decent set victories (MJG being MJG, Muse over Cheezeballer, the DK people oft think of when DKWill and Larry are excluded, constantly, and Jerm over Megafox recently), Toon Link could start to see a surge of support and momentum in the middle of the States over time. And then there's Zan in the Northwest as well.

Are there any Tinks in the Northeast, Europe, and Japan?

 

[Luco]

Mario's damage output is overall below average.

However, his combo ability makes up for this.

I think this is part of the reason pre-patch Luigi's combos were so oppressive (KO confirms aside) He could combo you forever, but his moves also dealt respectable damage too.

Now, one of his main combo moves (Fair) deals less damage per hit, he cannot get quite as many hits in on you per combo, and he combos you for a slightly smaller amount of time.

But back to Mario, I feel that his weaknesses do keep him in check, but more so in specific matchups. Mario's biggest flaw for me is his lack of a KO setup. He basically has to fish for that kill. Imagine if he had even something like Dthrow to Bair... ouch.

Characters that can out camp him without the use of projectiles can also give him some jip (Sonic, for example).

It's true that I simplify it too much by equating Mario's combo-ability with raw damage output and anti-grab games are a relatively good approach (although we all know good grab + followup games never go out of style and are always powerful).

I don't wish to insinuate that people who believe Mario sits outside that top 5 range are non-believers or over-skeptical. The game, its results and even its theory are all volatile and the structures we use to perceive our meta-game seem to be able to wash away in moments. I *feel* Mario is a force to be reckoned with, now and in the future and my thoughts will reflect this. But to play the worst card of all time, I love the discussion this brought and I'm glad the discussion was had.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's the 9 characters out of the top 10, but I will tel you that Ryu himself doesn't deserve to be in top 10 due to the infrequent appearances of Trela, the character's horrible learning curve (higher than Link's) and overall lack of results. Contenders for 10th place would be Toon Link or Villager because of their players' performances and how they can be used efficiently, as well as the ease of use of those characters. Pikachu's also a contender for 10th place, though I'm not sure about that at the wake of the moment currently. I'd more than likely love to devote a tier list of all of the panels of tiers and give the most extreme reasoning ever, but I'd save that for later.

 

[Jams.]

Pretty much every top player that mains a character with items bar Kamemushi needs to develop their item game more.

Abadango was starting to lead the way but he dropped pac. Gingko and Tea have awesome item games...but neither of them show up to tournaments...

Ginko has by far the most technical item game of any top ROB, and is probably the closest at being able to at least execute all the item tech consistently (reverse grounded gyro pls) if not use it optimally. I really wish he'd play ROB more, but playing Mewtwo makes more sense unfortunately.

You'd probably like him to play Pac Man more though, haha; you guys have Tea already though. =P

Pay close attention to a lot of the tournament sets people play against, say, Ally.
A strong amount of deaths is due to choking and doing something stupid(NAKAT DI in on Mario dthrow at the edge at kill %).

I'm pretty sure NAKAT DIed in because in that scenario, Mario fthrow would've killed him if he DIed away. He anticipated the fthrow offstage, and Ally smartly mixed him up by dthrowing instead. He might've been able to avoid both with no DI, but it's really difficult to pick an option like that in a high pressure situation unless you knew exactly what was going on. I think Ally made an intelligent decision here, rather than NAKAT making a poor decision.

 

[Murlough]

That's the 9 characters out of the top 10, but I will tel you that Ryu himself doesn't deserve to be in top 10 due to the infrequent appearances of Trela, the character's horrible learning curve (higher than Link's) and overall lack of results. Contenders for 10th place would be Toon Link or Villager because of their players' performances and how they can be used efficiently, as well as the ease of use of those characters. Pikachu's also a contender for 10th place, though I'm not sure about that at the wake of the moment currently. I'd more than likely love to devote a tier list of all of the panels of tiers and give the most extreme reasoning ever, but I'd save that for later.

....maybe I'm missing something or I'm not paying attention but doesn't Trela usually get much farther than ESAM?

If both characters (Ryu and Pika) are typically carried by one very notable player (Trela and ESAM respectively) then why would the one with lower results have a chance within Top 10 but the other doesn't?

Also, we've discussed this already but I'll restate it for you: The learning curve of a character has nothing to do with viability.

On another note, I don't believe Mewtwo is top 5. He is most certainly a fantastic character when played well but he has weaknesses most top tiers don't. He also has a notably unfavorable matchup with a definite, at least in my opinion, top five character: Diddy Kong. (Some will also say Cloud is bad for Mewtwo so take that as you will.)

 

[Radical Larry]

....maybe I'm missing something or I'm not paying attention but doesn't Trela usually get much farther than ESAM?

If both characters (Ryu and Pika) are typically carried by one very notable player (Trela and ESAM respectively) then why would the one with lower results have a chance within Top 10 but the other doesn't?

Also, we've discussed this already but I'll restate it for you: The learning curve of a character has nothing to do with viability.

On another note, I don't believe Mewtwo is top 5. He is most certainly a fantastic character when played well but he has weaknesses most top tiers don't. He also has a notably unfavorable matchup with a definite, at least in my opinion, top five character: Diddy Kong. (Some will also say Cloud is bad for Mewtwo so take that as you will.)

The learning curve of a character actually does determine a character's viability, as it affects the tournament representation of said character. Ryu has a very high learning curve, but also high potential, but due to that very high learning curve, Ryu will suffer in terms of representation, and in turn, results. The same thing applies to Link, Pac-Man, Palutena and Pikachu, all of which are characters with high learning curves.

I can understand that Pikachu and Ryu's results are different, thus leading into significantly different potential, but don't just take two players who carry their own respective characters as prime examples for the potential. You also have to count in factors such as the update negating prior results from 1.1.5 below, and the appearance of the players representing the character. Now Ryu could be a contender for top 10, but he's also highly infrequent. I can understand he could have the potential of being top 10, but so can Villager. After seeing the results of the most recent super majors, of course Ryu could be considered in the 10th spot, but then there's Villager. As for Pikachu, I'll refute my consideration of him being top 10.

However, one thing we should talk about is if Pit/Dark Pit and Corrin are either lower-high tiers or just simple middle tiers from their results...or somewhat lack thereof.

 

[zzmorg82]

On the topic of what tournament players could do better options of our desired characters; I wish players played a bit more patient and defensively. Since his approach options aren't the best, it's better to play the patient game and punish when the opponnent throws out a unsafe move. It's also good to make use of Jab and Down Tilt in the neutral.

There has been many times on stream where I see a Falco get bopped because he was being too aggressive and throwing out unsafe moves on shield. I know he has multiple bad matchups, but that still doesn't excuse the player for not being mindful of the opponent options as well. I love watching Osiris197 play because he's usually patient and is very good at reading his opponents.

I don't really have a whole lot to say about Aba. His Mewtwo has gotten so clean its scary. Practicing against Diddy would be almost all I can think of. Either that or don't pull a woefully underprepared Rosa to face the monkey. Seriously, that was so heartbreaking to watch it was almost funny.

I don't know much about the Japanese scene so I have no clue if there are any notable Diddy's there to train against.

He has Neitono, but I agree. Sometimes if the matchup is bad agaisnt a character you main; at a certain point you have to accept the obstacle and go with it since it's your best chance at winning, especially if you haven't been practicing with your secondaries as much as you do with your main. I would've rather seen him go Meta Knight.

 

[Radical Larry]

On the topic of what tournament players could do better options of our desired characters; I wish players played a bit more patient and defensively. Since his approach options aren't the best, it's better to play the patient game and punish when the opponnent throws out a unsafe move. It's also good to make use of Jab and Down Tilt in the neutral.

There has been many times on stream where I see a Falco get bopped because he was being too aggressive and throwing out unsafe moves on shield. I know he has multiple bad matchups, but that still doesn't excuse the player for not being mindful of the opponent options as well. I love watching Osiris197 play because he's usually patient and is very good at reading his opponents.

Falco players should be reliant on getting Up Throw combos going. Up Throw > B-Air is such an efficient way to go against your opponent, and on Battlefield, Up Throw > U-Air is a wonderful kill combo off top platform. As a Falco player myself, I actually fight with a highly aggressive and yet patient style; if I play defensively, that'll hurt me actually.

Oh, and Back Aerial is Falco's best friend. The attack is both extremely powerful and extremely fast, coupled with pretty good range. You literally cannot ask for a better back aerial for a character.

(I could get serious about talking about Falco, but let the discussion start before that happens)

 

[Peppermint1201]

so uh, how about that "counterpick meta"?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The learning curve of a character actually does determine a character's viability, as it affects the tournament representation of said character. Ryu has a very high learning curve, but also high potential, but due to that very high learning curve, Ryu will suffer in terms of representation, and in turn, results. The same thing applies to Link, Pac-Man, Palutena and Pikachu, all of which are characters with high learning curves.

Melee fox

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I love dabuz so much oh my god...

 

[DanGR]

so uh, how about that "counterpick meta"?

I have no comment on your main point, but this source hardly covers the secondaries that -were- used. Kamemushi used some yoshi. Zero used some sheik. Abadango used a little bit of Rosa. Etc.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Dabuz top 10:

Ryu at #11.

 

[C0rvus]

Point is, those all failed for the most part. Anti even said 2/3 is better for counterpicking, though I don't know why.