Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Rizen]

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention... Bombs. Link's bombs are worse than Toon Link's not just because of Link's inferior mobility, but the fuse is shorter. This does make them better for recovery, though.

A shorter fuse is not necessarily a bad thing. If the opponent catches a bomb they can't do much with it. Link's bombs can be planted like Snake's grenades and this is a HUGE perk TL's bombs lack. Link's bombs also do more damage and have more hitstun.

 

[Nu~]

Dabuz seems like he wants to put DH higher but all results are overseas. DH being a zoner with a damn good grab and shield pressure pulls him along. There's just gotta be something to it and I wish Yusan and Raito would regularly make the trip.

Duck hunt is a much better zoner than Pac-Man tbh. He may potentially be the second best projectile zoner behind mega man.


MUCH less counterplay to his zoning tools as opposed to pacman AND he has reliable traps. The second biggest factor to his superiority is the fact that he can pressure sheild for days.

It sucks that we don't get to see the Duck hunt trio more in the US

 

[Amadeus9]

Please dont compare Marth to Cloud lmao. They share nothing outside the fact that they have swords. Very different goals in their play. Cloud isn't better Marth and Marth isnt worse Cloud.

 

[FullMoon]

The only thing that came out to me as a bit wrong in Dabuz's analysis on Greninja was saying that his edgeguarding is bad because even if Hydro Pump got nerfed it can still mess up people's recovery pretty well and also his B-Air is a bit of an underused edgeguarding tool because the hitbox lasts a good while and the angle it sends the opponent is also pretty great.

Other than that I can't really disagree with much else other than nitpicks. iStudying's performance when he did come to tournaments was pretty lacking and that's not really something you can deny and you can't really ignore the best player of the character having that kind of performance.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

"Shulk mains are super fanatical and delusional about their character"

Well it's true, the Shulk memes and memey acronyms make Shulk more fun to theorycraft amirite /s

 

[zeldasmash]

Link actually has quite a few things over Toon Link at first glance. However, almost none of that matters when he can't use them to his fullest with such poor mobility, which is something that Tink lacks. Tink's mobility and size allows him to get hits easier and run away easier, making himself safer and harder to hit and his weight makes him less combo food, all of which are the complete opposite to Link with him being heavier and larger.

A good example of how much mobility improves Tink are the Bombs. Link's Bombs are better by design: shorter fuse which can be used to recover more reliably, can be C4'ed, have more explosion radius and have more hitstun, but Tink's mobility makes them seem better for absolutely everything when they aren't and while Link is stronger then Tink, that doesn't mean Tink is that much weaker: Tink can still kill really well.

Tink is better then Link solely because of his better mobility and frame data. If Tink had Link's mobility and frame data, he'd be considered bottom tier. It would be nice if Link had better mobility and frame data, but Tink exists, so why do that, just pick him if you want a faster Link.....

 

[|RK|]

so uh, how about that "counterpick meta"?

Someone made this point on Reddit, and I have to ask - why does this say anything about a counterpick meta? If ZeRo's Sheik were more practiced, he might have beaten Kamemushi. If Kamemushi's Yoshi were more practiced - or if he had a Sonic, he could have beaten Ally. Etc. The point is that every character loses some matchups.

But those counterpicks have to be practiced to mean anything.

 

[TDK]

Someone made this point on Reddit, and I have to ask - why does this say anything about a counterpick meta? If ZeRo's Sheik were more practiced, he might have beaten Kamemushi. If Kamemushi's Yoshi were more practiced - or if he had a Sonic, he could have beaten Ally. Etc. The point is that every character loses some matchups.

But those counterpicks have to be practiced to mean anything.

Exactly. Unless you're CPing a pick up and play character -which doesn't always work - you can't just rely on a half-remembered character to get you more than one game. Aba vs ZeRo is a good example of this. Aba came much closer with Mewtwo than Rosa, as did ZeRo vs Kamemushi with diddy than Sheik.

It's not a counterpick meta unless said counterpick is also your secondary.

Secondary meta incoming??

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: Someone said EVO was the last international of the summer, but that's a lie.

Smash Factor 5 will be 29-31st this month, and has Ally, Mr R and Dabuz registered at the front page, along with MK Leo and Hyuga (though I am not sure about his status) and other mexican talents that haven't traveled.

I had a lot to say about the Lucina/Marth thing but I think everyone already shared a good, lengthy discussion about it (and pretty fair, too). The bottom line is that Lucina might have a lot of untapped potential, unseen since nearly nobody plays her at top level.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Another Dabuz Tier list

Mario top 3 and Marth top 10 is pushing it alittle. ( I do think Mario is top 5 but not top 3)

Corrin is to low, Luigi to high, Greninja to low, Kirby to low, Yoshi to low, DH to low but not by much, Shulk to low but not by much.

Also explain how Pacman being bottom 3 is acceptable?

Marth being as high as he is on this is perfectly reasonable tbh
His matchup spread is amazing according to the top Marth players, his theory is great, and correct me if I'm wrong but @Das Koopa's list has him as the 12th best character in terms of results.

 

[Amadeus9]

I know this is cliché and whatever but

Imagine if you saw this list from dabuz a year ago. How far things have come lol

 

[Nu~]

I know this is cliché and whatever but

Imagine if you saw this list from dabuz a year ago. How far things have come lol

**** man...

I know for sure that I would be making heated essays about how Pacman is criminally low and that Dabuz "Just doesn't understand the character!1!! >:["

...And here I am today, still searching for a new main whilst believing that Pacman is bottom 20 ROFL

 

[Swamp Sensei]

@Dabuz

If I may ask, I thought you said you thought Olimar was one of the worst characters in the game.

In your most recent list, you put him relatively high.

Did you change your mind?

 

[Amadeus9]

@Dabuz

If I may ask, I thought you said you thought Olimar was one of the worst characters in the game.

In your most recent list, you put him relatively high.

Did you change your mind?

Gonna snip from what he said on stream,

he said that olimar is extremely strong on final destination and lylat to the point that if you have an olimar he thinks olimar should be used as a stage counterpick character. He mentioned that oli gains so much from these stages that he actually transitions to winning a few top tier mus (cant remember which)

A pretty interesting idea

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well now I'm kind of curious as to what he thinks about that whole lowest tier.

Particularly and and .





Regardless, I'm starting to see a major fall in use and placements. I feel this is because while the character is good at what he does, he's rather cookie cutter and predictable. This is compounded by the sheer popularity of the character. People know what to do against Falcon even if their character loses. Thoughts?

 

[PK Gaming]

Dabuz goes over his post Evo tier list

I've seen people bring it up a few times but no link, so here you go.

It's 5 hours(!) but there's some good stuff here.

 

[Ninety]

**** man...

I know for sure that I would be making heated essays about how Pacman is criminally low and that Dabuz "Just doesn't understand the character!1!! >:["

...And here I am today, still searching for a new main whilst believing that Pacman is bottom 20 ROFL

And a new name, while you're at it?

 

[Ffamran]

... also his B-Air is a bit of an underused edgeguarding tool because the hitbox lasts a good while and the angle it sends the opponent is also pretty great.

Just gonna pick this here... add onto it. Hits 5, 8, and 13-16. That's 1(2)1(4)4. For anyone who doesn't understand that format, parentheses indicates frame gaps, frames when there are no hitboxes. Frame gaps exist on most multi-hits and unless they're really large like above 6 frames, it's not really a big deal. As a whole, Greninja's Bair has 6 total active frames, but it spans across 12 frames with low, "ideal" frame gaps. The last hit has high active frames, well, above average since most moves have 2 to 3 active frames... Anyway, this got me thinking, does the Smash community use the term "meaty"?

Meaty is defined as: "An attack that hits an opponent as soon as they wake up to they are forced to block it in its later active frames. This is often an attack with high active frames such as SF4 M.Bison’s crouch short. When executed correctly, gives more frame advantage due to hitting later: there are less active frames to wait through." From Shoryuken's glossary: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

In Smash, wake ups would include ledge getups and could loosely be applied to dodges. There's a momentum of vulnerability after all and people have seen it happen; opponent dodges, attack is still active when their I-frames run out, they get hit. In the case of actual wake ups and ledge getups, big example would be Cloud's Limit Break Cross Slash. That's a meaty hit, but I don't know if it's ever been referred to as such. People do say it has high actives, but that's pretty much it (while also complaining about how safe on-shield it is, its power, and other stuff like, "Please save us, Sephiroth-senpai! Give Cloud dis pear!" )

 

[Nu~]

And a new name, while you're at it?

I reaaaally want to

Maybe some time in the future I'll finally pay for the name change and the blue color lol

 

[Yikarur]

Posting it here because it's more appropriate:

Although Mario did very well at EVO, it was largely due to Ally's success with the character, as most of the Mario's on stream didn't get that far.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...PwUQjQ-Ew0QyTc4/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...tlxAZv5pv19QDHUtqR2Ddo06xy8/htmlview?sle=true

Compare this to Diddy Kong, who not only had more players on the stream than Mario, but he also gathered a lot more success as well.


I am of the firm belief that Mario is a Top 15 character at least, though Top 10 could be more suiting for him in most people's eyes. However, I highly doubt that he is a Top 3 character, or even a Top 5 character. And the biggest reason behind this is that he simply doesn't overwhelm most top tier characters. Plus, there are a good number of characters that have a slight edge against him within the upper tiers, as well.

Mario has a clear advantage against (?), but he has disadvantageous matchups against and I think against too. He also has trouble against characters like and possibly although they are a tier lower than the other characters he has trouble against. And while are pretty even matchups, Mario's ability to easily edgeguard them is a large reason why he is able to keep relatively even matchups with those characters (same with Marth). Otherwise, they have strengths that hit Mario pretty hard, such as Cloud's/Marth's range or Fox's speed and CQC strength. is a similar case, although he has far more strength for Mario to worry about at the cost of being easier for Mario to deal with overall. are mostly even, though it could be said that Mario has a slight advantage against Sheik now.


Outside of the first two-three characters I mentioned though, Mario doesn't have a HUGE advantage against anyone in the top tiers, and there are a good number of checks and counters against him as well. And while this makes Mario's MU spread "well-rounded" overall within the high-top tiers, it isn't really that special when can boast similar claims and yet can have even better MU's and results. Diddy in particular, for sure. And while Sheik had a bit of a fall from grace, Cloud did pretty poorly at EVO, and Mewtwo has a much smaller player base; I feel as though that all four of them are stronger than Mario as a whole/overall.

I'm convinced that Yoshi is +1 against Mario.

Cloud is an insanely powerful character with a very insane risk reward. The problem in Cloud are not his top tier MUs. (I think he gets beaten by Sheik and Diddy) but ge demolishes a lot of characters im the lower tiers. I think this is a Problem in the current meta because I don't feel like any character is that overwhelming in Match-ups like Cloud is. (Diddy comes as close second but at least he requires skill to use)
I still think Cloud needs a nerf for that reason. (Easy to play while +2ing a lot of MUs) but the game is really fine afterwards except for Diddy Kong being too strong against a certain set of characters.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I'm convinced that Yoshi is +1 against Mario.

Cloud is an insanely powerful character with a very insane risk reward. The problem in Cloud are not his top tier MUs. (I think he gets beaten by Sheik and Diddy) but ge demolishes a lot of characters im the lower tiers. I think this is a Problem in the current meta because I don't feel like any character is that overwhelming in Match-ups like Cloud is. (Diddy comes as close second but at least he requires skill to use)
I still think Cloud needs a nerf for that reason. (Easy to play while +2ing a lot of MUs) but the game is really fine afterwards except for Diddy Kong being too strong against a certain set of characters.

Interesting. I play both Mario and Yoshi, so I am curious to hear your thoughts on the matchup. I personally feel as though it is evenish, if not slightly in Mario's favor.

And yeah, Cloud's not so much of an issue in Top Tier, but his range and limit are huge threats to lower tiered characters for sure. Diddy, Rosa, Sonic, and Sheik can also do some pretty devastating damage against lower tiers as well. But out of all of the top tiers, Cloud can easily be the bane for a good number of characters at lower levels, especially due to his ease of use as well.

 

[TriTails]

I know this is cliché and whatever but

Imagine if you saw this list from dabuz a year ago. How far things have come lol

'Who the **** is that anime boy beside greninja'

Mario being Top 3 is interesting but Top 5 is not a stretch at all, and I'm basically the Mario Bros. pessimist here lol.

But Ally winning EVO is a big deal, ANTi also won CEO due to his 90% Mario run. We just have to wait to confirm whether Ally will be consistent with his winnings, 49th at CEO is to blame.

 

[FullMoon]

Just gonna pick this here... add onto it. Hits 5, 8, and 13-16. That's 1(2)1(4)4. For anyone who doesn't understand that format, parentheses indicates frame gaps, frames when there are no hitboxes. Frame gaps exist on most multi-hits and unless they're really large like above 6 frames, it's not really a big deal. As a whole, Greninja's Bair has 6 total active frames, but it spans across 12 frames with low, "ideal" frame gaps. The last hit has high active frames, well, above average since most moves have 2 to 3 active frames... Anyway, this got me thinking, does the Smash community use the term "meaty"?

Meaty is defined as: "An attack that hits an opponent as soon as they wake up to they are forced to block it in its later active frames. This is often an attack with high active frames such as SF4 M.Bison’s crouch short. When executed correctly, gives more frame advantage due to hitting later: there are less active frames to wait through." From Shoryuken's glossary: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

In Smash, wake ups would include ledge getups and could loosely be applied to dodges. There's a momentum of vulnerability after all and people have seen it happen; opponent dodges, attack is still active when their I-frames run out, they get hit. In the case of actual wake ups and ledge getups, big example would be Cloud's Limit Break Cross Slash. That's a meaty hit, but I don't know if it's ever been referred to as such. People do say it has high actives, but that's pretty much it (while also complaining about how safe on-shield it is, its power, and other stuff like, "Please save us, Sephiroth-senpai! Give Cloud dis pear!" )

I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing with what I said or not but I didn't actually know the last hit of B-Air lasted for four frames while the others only lasted for one, huh, I dunno how I thought it was like but it wasn't like that.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In regards to Cloud, out of the three characters I use in tournament (Rosalina, Marth and Bayonetta), I definitely feel the most comfortable playing against Cloud as Marth. From experience, I have more personal wins against Clouds as Marth than the other two. The fact that Marth has a disjoint to rival Cloud's helps him compete, and the fact that he has overall superior spacing helps a ton.

Cloud is also relatively easy to edgeguard with Marth. He has all the tools any character could possibly need to edgeguard him. He has a disjoint to challenge Cloud safely off stage. He has a fast move to swipe at the ledge for when Cloud doesn't snap it, in Down Tilt. Alternatively, he can also use Counter, which can also be used when hanging from the ledge. This option is incredibly easy. If Cloud is forced to recover low, just grab the ledge, and when he goes to do his Up B, drop down and Counter.

Something I see False do, and have adapted into my playstyle a lot, is when I am about to head off stage with Marth to do an edgeguard, I run off stage, and use the first hit of Dancing Blade to stall me in the air. This is handy, because it allows you to extend your air time off stage as the opponent drifts towards the ledge. Some opponents will instantly air dodge or throw an aerial out as soon as you head off stage. Doing this also allows you to avoid and punish this.

Alternatively, the first hit of Dancing Blade as an attack off stage isn't a bad idea, if used immediately after your mid air jump. It combos into his other aerials, as it pops the opponent just into range of an attack. You can even do things like this with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03a7geD7xY&t=7m45s (albeit, in this example, False used the first hit, THEN jumped, but this is matchup specific because Fox's recovery takes some time to get going).

Granted, I don't think Rosalina and Bayonetta do too bad against Cloud either. Rosalina edgeguards Cloud just as well as Marth (if not better in a few cases [semi spike Bair]), and Bullet Climax can give Cloud some jip, as well as Full Hop Dair just asking to be Witch Time'd.

 

[NairWizard]

"Mario struggles to get in" is a tired argument that needs to be put to rest.

Mario doesn't struggle to get in any more than his opponents struggle to get him out.

For instance, it's cool that Mewtwo's d-tilt and f-air make it difficult for Mario to get in CQC range, but once Mario is there, how is Mewtwo going to get away given Mario's superior frame data and option coverage? A clever Mario can pretty much just go ham on his opponents once at close quarters, and to be honest it doesn't take a lot of work to even get that close. Rolling and spotdodging are obscenely powerful in this game, and don't even get me started on airdodge into aerial shenanigans. Mario only needs to mix up his defensive options one or two times to successfully get in, and once he does get in, he runs train.

But this is all still assuming that Mario even has to get in at all. We always talk about random characters laming out Marios by running away, but what happens once Mario gets the lead, and his opponent is facing down the prospect of trying to approach a character with the most fearsome up-smash OoS and one of the deadliest SHAD defense games in the game? Mario can pretty much just hide in shield or weave with airdodges forever.

Opinions on Mario are so polarized because when Mario loses it looks really bad for him, but when he wins he lives forever and Rage up-smash looks really overpowered. If Sonic gets the first few hits on Mario then Sonic is going make Mario look like trash by just running away all match while Mario flails helplessly. But if Mario gets the first few hits in, oh boy, suddenly Sonic's the one who looks like garbage, making aggressive moves repeatedly only to get countered by up-smash and juggled endlessly from that position.

Is Mario top 5? Who knows. But either way we need to stop viewing Mario's matchups through such a coarse filter.

 

[epicnights]

I'm really impressed at @Dabuz extremely accurate placement of Link and the reasoning behind it, mainly because it's spot-on. Link's normals overall outclass Toon Link, held back by the mobility specs likening to Melee Bowser. Add onto the fact that he has bottom 10 disadvantage state, his placement makes perfect sense.

Oh, and one last thing: it's hard for me to swallow as a Link main, but he's right in saying that Link would be bottom 3 if he didn't have bombs, especially due to bombs being the only thing keeping his disadvantage from legitimately being bottom 2, second only to Ganon. It wouldn't seem like it, but it's true, seeing as you only need to cover either instant tether reel-in or the tether arc swing, due to Up-b recovering in the exact same range as the tether arc swing. Recovering high isn't even really an option for Link, either; his jumps don't bring him high enough so he must up-b and free-fall back to the stage with 30 frames of recovery. It's not exactly a bad recovery per se; it's certainly more versatile than Ganon's. However, it's easy to cover and has very little leeway in the way of vertical movement, with bombs being the only way to bolster more vertical movement.

 

[Nocally]

With a Pikachu getting 25th place at Evo, can we all agree that Pika is at least a high-mid tier now?

 

[Luco]

With a Pikachu getting 25th place at Evo, can we all agree that Pika is at least a high-mid tier now?

I don't know if Pika is considered anything lower than high mid already. The character is good, there was a lot of disruption over his early top tier placements and whilst there were over-reactions the general consensus kinda settled on a lower top 20 position, which is high mid or better as far as I can see it, certainly. Character is good man and has the results to prove it, don't let the naysayers get to you.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Someone made this point on Reddit, and I have to ask - why does this say anything about a counterpick meta? If ZeRo's Sheik were more practiced, he might have beaten Kamemushi. If Kamemushi's Yoshi were more practiced - or if he had a Sonic, he could have beaten Ally. Etc. The point is that every character loses some matchups.

But those counterpicks have to be practiced to mean anything.

This. For some unknown reason, even a lot of top players think counterpicking is automatic and that opponents will be at a loss for what to do if you pick a character their character typically sucks against. Rosa vs Ness is only a true 80-20 if you have better match up knowledge than your opponent. If you play certain characters, you'll be fully expecting certain characters to magically appear when you're winning sets and if you regularly play in tournaments, you already know all the common pockets and their basic strategies. I'd argue that counterpicking is just a lot more intelligent in this game than past Smash games because most counterpicks in this game mean you have a slight edge and not the typical "you're going to get BTFO if your opponent is semi competent and has a basic understanding of the match up" that was very common in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Yikarur]

Super Big Post incoming (and cross post with Summer of Smash Thread)

This weekend is PPT SUMMER in germany! Europe's biggest tournament since Beast 6 (don't quote me on that tho)
There are about 190 entrants from all over europe.
Reddit Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...ament_thread_pandalis_pandemonium_tournament/

Stream:
GeekyGoonSquad on www.twitch.tv/GeekyGoonSquad
Probably the worlds best Smash streamer who got signed by mYinsanity.
https://twitter.com/GGs_Liva


Commentators:
Max Ketchum (known to everyone)
Cyanide (Commetated with Max at Beast already, he's awesome!)
Sam the Commentator + Co-Commentator (main commentator of Avalon)

Players to watch out for:
Japan:
Abdango (Will Abadango win this tournament?? I'm super excited)

Netherlands:
istudying Netherlands currently highest ranked player after Mr. R and europe's/worlds best greninja
Badr Albion winner
Gregs
Joey

United Kingdom:
Ixis Neokan Party #2 Winner and europe's best Sonic
C.R.Z.
SevereCalamari

France:
Elaxiao currently frances best player and people argue he might be better than istudy
Homika France's and maybe europe's best Rosalina

Austria:
vyQ Beefy Smash Doods and austrians best player!
Luigi_player (europe's best Luigi for sure)
cfive Beefy Smash Doods main voice! Everyone knows him

Switzerland:
Destany (Most likely Europe's best Little Mac)

Luxembourg:
otek Europe Top PM player who recently got a WiiU but placed well at tournaments without one already!
Trax

Sweden:
Izaw (Europe's best Link. and I guess everyone knows him)

Germany:
Sodrek (Arguable Europe Top3 player. Europe's best Fox and best Cloud)
Light fifth place at BEAST 6 and there he put istudy in losers
quiK Europe's best Zero Suit Samus player. He was a european top player in brawl and continues to stay a top player in melee and smash 4 as well)
LoNg0uw Europe's best ROB for sure
BluB Could be europe's best Bayonetta. He was Germany's Top2 in Brawl for a long time and continues to be a really strong player with strong results in Smash 4 as well
Purple~H He was germany's best snake in Brawl and started Smash 4 recently with very strong results from the get go.
Yikarur Europe's best Yoshi and Mii Brawler. Remember that european tournaments have Guest Mii Brawler with all moves legal most of the time.

and many moreeeee

There will be a German Community vs. World Crew Battle on friday at about 10pm CEST !

I'd really like if everyone will spread the info about the tournament!

 

[SaltyKracka]

Might as well call it PPT Brexit, cuz the UK gon' get blown the flip out.

 

[HoSmash4]

Any idea on the seeding? Yikarur

 

[|RK|]

I'm going to make the classic "why is my main so low" post, so do be prepared.

Opinions on Mario are so polarized because when Mario loses it looks really bad for him, but when he wins he lives forever and Rage up-smash looks really overpowered. If Sonic gets the first few hits on Mario then Sonic is going make Mario look like trash by just running away all match while Mario flails helplessly. But if Mario gets the first few hits in, oh boy, suddenly Sonic's the one who looks like garbage, making aggressive moves repeatedly only to get countered by up-smash and juggled endlessly from that position.

Is Mario top 5? Who knows. But either way we need to stop viewing Mario's matchups through such a coarse filter.

This... is what I feel like people do with Kirby all the time. Including Dabuz. Kirby suffers from this a little more, but the fact of the matter is this - if the opponent is in the lead and camping, they will make Kirby "look like trash by just running away all match" while Kirby "flails helplessly." But if Kirby gets the first few hits in, suddenly his opponent is the one who looks like garbage, making aggressive moves repeatedly only to get countered by Kirby's quick tilts and juggled (semi-)endlessly from that position.

And to be honest, this is something that players have mentioned before. ESAM has mentioned it in the past, and Dabuz said the same thing on his stream - if you're forced to fight Kirby, he shoots up multiple tiers. And there are a variety of circumstances under which you *will* be forced to fight Kirby. The most obvious of which is when he has the lead, and on most characters it's easy to rack up a quick lead, then force your opponent to approach you for the rest of the match. Fox in particular should be especially wary of just running away, since he eats far too much damage off of one conversion for camping Kirby out to be a legitimate strategy. Same goes for many other fast fallers, especially those whose ranged options aren't bothersome to Kirby (e.g. Needles).

The second situation under which opponents are forced to fight Kirby is if he has a copy ability that allows him to keep up with his opponent (this is the part where I veer off, since I believe copy abilities are crucial to advancing Kirby's meta) regardless of their lead. ESAM believes for his part that Pikachu slightly wins the Kirby matchup, but with the copy ability Kirby wins the MU because now he's forced to approach, and well... see the bit about tilts above. Mario can be forced to approach with his copy ability, Shulk just can't run away from Jump or Speed so easily, etc.

The thing is, if the MU is played right from the Kirby side of the equation, Kirby has ways to keep himself in the game. I don't think that the filter of "just run away from Kirby" makes sense considering his strengths.

But I digress.

...Wow, that's how it feels to make one of those, lol

 

[Yikarur]

Any idea on the seeding? Yikarur

Abadango
Sodrek
Ixis
Light
iStudying
quiK
Elexiao
LoNg0uw

are Top8 in that order.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

One thing that bothers me Mario being ranked so low on a lot of lists and players saying he is that bad.

He gotten 1-4th at multiple top level events this year, many of which were not from one single player.

I really think he should be placed in at least top 7. His results do not match a character ranked 13th etc on many lists. He is clearly making waves and outperforming where people think of him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Might as well call it PPT Brexit, cuz the UK gon' get blown the flip out.

No way, Ixis is gonna do work.

Abadango gonna body this tournament for free though

 

[soniczx123]

Abadango
Sodrek
Ixis
Light
iStudying
quiK
Elexiao
LoNg0uw

are Top8 in that order.

Why is iStudying 5th seed?

 

[Yikarur]

Why is iStudying 5th seed?

because.. why not? Can you elaborate on your question?

 

[soniczx123]

because.. why not? Can you elaborate on your question?

I mean, how come 2nd at BEAST VI is seeded lower than 7th (Sodrek who he beat, and Light) and 9th (Ixis) for this tournament?

 

[SaltyKracka]

I mean, how come 2nd at BEAST VI is seeded lower than 7th (Sodrek who he beat, and Light) and 9th (Ixis) for this tournament?

Presumably because there have been other tournaments with different placings.