Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Need is super linear and not that fast. He also has more than one fairly hard counter.

He's simple, easy and effective, yet hasn't proven himself as a top national threat. He's a good character, but hasn't shown anything besides glimpses of greatness (and those are few and far between).

Even just going by "potential" there are well over a dozen characters I'd place above Ness, personally.

Sheik has all the tools to dominate Greninja but taking a max rage nair to upsmash to the face at 50% and dying for it kinda sucks.

Sheik deserves to die if she gets hit by a move with well over 20 frames of effective startup that isn't safe on shield.

I think this is one of the reasons people think the MU isn't that bad any more, along with Dtilt Usmash which doesn't even true confirm unless Sheik runs into Dtilt, DIs toward Greninja or (somehow) gets hit by sliding Dtilt. So, again, she has to mess up bad.

This isn't directed at you personally, I just think there is a wide view that this MU is better than it is, for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Can we talk about mega man and how he is completely viable and finally us mega man mains have the results to prove that he is top 15 if not top 10 now?

 

[Browny]

You live in Australia, right? If so, you'd better not tell them where you came from.

"Hold up, dude. You came from Australia to Vagas to participate in the biggest smash 4 tournament in the world where it's virtually impossible to make top 16 and win money unless you're a top player..... to play Jigglypuff?"

You kind of explained why I did it just then.

Seeing as its impossible for me to place highly anyway, why not try and have fun playing a character I like? I didn't come to USA for EVO anyway, it just so happened to be on during a holiday while I was here. It really wasn't planned much.

For what its worth, I do think jiggs is bottom tier but as many know, that isnt THAT bad in this game where the gap between top and bottom tiers is no where near as bad as it has been in previous games. I just don't like it when people dont take it seriously. If people use ganon people are like 'wow hes so manly, he doesnt care about the tier list he cares about the disrespect'. Use DeDeDe and everything is a meme about how hes perfect. Use jiggs and I keep having to explain to people that I'm not joking.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Can we talk about mega man and how he is completely viable and finally us mega man mains have the results to prove that he is top 15 if not top 10 now?

You've got Kamemushi.

Now, Kamemushi's great and all, and I ain't discounting all the work he's put in.

But Kamemushi's all you've got.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whenever I've played Marth, against most characters at 110+ (so basically when tipper DB would start killing with a decent amount of rage) they generally fall out of the move within the first hit or 2 especially if I have a lot of rage. The exceptions are heavies and fast fallers. And I've seen this happen to top Marths as well.

I mean if what you are saying is true, then that's a huge oversight by almost all Marth players (not knowing how to time/space DB such that it always tippers). You'd think by now someone would have made an entire guide on how to properly get the move to tipper on all characters or something. But I really think rage and DI are issues with it, I'll believe it being reliable when I see it.

But if it IS reliable, then holy crap. How many characters in this game have a kill option that comes out that fast and can be done out of a dash?

I mean OOS alone this option seems ridiculous. "Oh you did a spaced or crossup bair on my shield? No worries, I"ll just OOS dash DB to tipper and kill you at 110". That's literally game changing.

You can def follow DI on reaction but I think 110 is a bit too high. More like 90ish, but its char dependent.

If they start to fall out you gotta be sure to delay your hits. Just gotta pay attention.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You've got Kamemushi.

Now, Kamemushi's great and all, and I ain't discounting all the work he's put in.

But Kamemushi's all you've got.

There's also Scatt and Daiki

 

[my_T]

when ness is in disadvantage (in the air) don't try to attack him from the side; you run the risk of eating fair, uair, bair, and nair. Attack him at his feet. There is very little he can do to stop this; he usually has to air dodge. Other than dair which comes out at frame 20, his other aerials don't really cover below him. His fall speed also makes it pretty easy to set up juggles and landing punishes. Obviously you can retreat to the ledge to avoid juggles but you lose stage control, have to deal with ledge pressure, and you might be forced to use his recovery...pick your poison, either way you're kinda ****ed.

and about this amazing frame data...his aerials have good frame data, can't say the same for his ground game. One would think to just abuse his aerials but taking to the air is a commitment in itself because you have to worry about landing and possibly getting juggled...and we all know how good ness is at landing and avoiding juggles

thats only part of his problem, There's still his neutral that you have to deal with. I've made multiple posts on that but hey, I'm just underrating him huh?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

You've got Kamemushi.

Now, Kamemushi's great and all, and I ain't discounting all the work he's put in.

But Kamemushi's all you've got.

Just because we have 1-3 top players doesn't mean he can't be top tier if anything it means the char is better due to the lack of representation. Example think of all the top level diddies or marios what if mega that high of percent of representation?

 

[Drarky]

Now, now, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Kamemushi did a lot to show that MM has potential, but it still is too early to call MM a top tier. I think the best way to put it is that right now Mega Man is a High Tier (or maybe High-Mid) character, which carries a lot of potential but is held back by some glaring weaknesses and a difficulty curve that it's not very kind to new players.

MM's overall match up spread is nice, since he's capable of winning in every MU, but there are some that can be quite bothersome to him. Sheik and Mario are probably the best examples, although Mario is not as bad as Kame made it look like at EVO, it was pretty clear that he didn't know the match up at first. At the same time, MM can shutdown some characters playstyle down pretty heavily, since his zoning game makes it difficult for characters that have problems approaching, specially if they focus on grabs (ZeRo could barely get any grabs with Diddy, that alone should say something).

Maybe someone else has a different way of looking at the character, but for me it this looks like a reasonable way to put it.

 

[Kofu]

You kind of explained why I did it just then.

Seeing as its impossible for me to place highly anyway, why not try and have fun playing a character I like? I didn't come to USA for EVO anyway, it just so happened to be on during a holiday while I was here. It really wasn't planned much.

For what its worth, I do think jiggs is bottom tier but as many know, that isnt THAT bad in this game where the gap between top and bottom tiers is no where near as bad as it has been in previous games. I just don't like it when people dont take it seriously. If people use ganon people are like 'wow hes so manly, he doesnt care about the tier list he cares about the disrespect'. Use DeDeDe and everything is a meme about how hes perfect. Use jiggs and I keep having to explain to people that I'm not joking.

Well, she is a joke character. Even when she's good, she's a lethal joke character (Melee). She dies if her shield is broken, she has two almost useless specials and another which often leads to death if it misses. Her ground game is mediocre and she's largely held up by her air game (which I'd argue is still weaker than that of some other characters').

She's nowhere near as bad as some people think, but she'll probably always have the stigma of being a joke character.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Because he has a high learning curve should not make him lower on the tier list. The tier list is based off of high level play where they should know how to use the character.

And what would you say his glaring weaknesses are because I don't see any of his weaknesses being that big.

As far as shiek he beat all the best shieks quite easily. Mario is a tough matchup and I think even though he got beat pretty handily against ally in the last 2 games he was doing very well against him.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I agree with the above guy, a character's difficulty curve should have nothing to do with their placement on the tier list.

 

[C0rvus]

Oh good, because nobody reasonable actually thinks that. Sheik is very difficult to play well, and she's consistently regarded as top 5 in the game. Mega Man does have a very high learning curve, but let's be real. The US has quite a bit of work to do on Mega Man counterplay. At the end of the day, Mega Man is clearly pretty good, but exactly how good remains to be seen. Let's see if he can keep it up on an international scale.

With that in mind, when will we see Kameme on US soil again? Genesis, maybe?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok so lets talk counter match-ups. Who cleanly beats MM?

 

[Appledees]

Fox,Mario and Sheik are his only top/hight tier matchups where he loses. He has maybe 2-3 winning ones and the rest are either slightly losing or even around the high/top tier. imo his mu spread isn't worthy enough for top 10 and its pushing it to be even op 15.

he's definitely viable though

 

[Peppermint1201]

Ness is super linear and not that fast. He also has more than one fairly hard counter.

He's simple, easy and effective, yet hasn't proven himself as a top national threat. He's a good character, but hasn't shown anything besides glimpses of greatness (and those are few and far between).

 

[NairWizard]

is probably 's worst matchup. It's listed as negative on Kame's MU chart, for starters, and then the theory aligns pretty well with that listing.

Mewtwo's Shadow Ball camping actually forces Megaman to play from a close-midrange position where he needs to bait a confusion with pellets because large SBs eat through all of MM's projectiles. But at this kind of range Mewtwo's d-tilt is very potent, and dash attack is one of the best burst tools in the game, so the neutral, which is Megaman's strong suit, is actually quite difficult in this particular matchup. The only other MUs where the neutral is uphill for Megaman are Sheik (Needles) and Rosalina (Luma and GP, though GP has counterplay), so already this is quite substantial imo. His other losing matchups like Fox and Mario can still lose in the neutral if they aren't careful and have to make some risky up-tiltable calls sometimes.

On top of this Mewtwo combos Megaman's weight class amazingly well, like Mario and Fox, and has the speed to capture his landings despite Megaman's great aerial movement.

It's one of my favorite matchups to play from the Mewtwo side because it's just so comfortable pressuring Megaman and making him play to your strengths.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

K, ignoring Pre Patch Discussion for relevant discussion. It's pre-patch. Does not add ANYTHING to speculation of the next tier list.

Marth discussion: So Marth has been making serious strides. While this can be accounted for terrible scheduling, Mr. E beat Zero at Evo this year, which caused some drama. Mr. E, in the end, placed higher than players like Mr. R, Tyrant, and Hyuga. Meanwhile, Pudgiest, the second best Marth, got top 32 at Evo. So results are there.

But wait! There were only 2 Ryu players in top 64. DJ Jack got 49th. Trela is the only relevant Ryu. Meanwhile, Esam has been falling off, FOW hasn't been to hot as of late, etc.

As for Lucina... not sure what to say. She's a worse Marth, let's just be clear. Since no one plays her and gets consistent and good results I frankly don't care for her lol.

You JUST said that I was the only Ryu who got top 64 along with Trela and still say that I'm irrelevant? What the...

 

[Yonder]

Fox,Mario and Sheik are his only top/hight tier matchups where he loses. He has maybe 2-3 winning ones and the rest are either slightly losing or even around the high/top tier. imo his mu spread isn't worthy enough for top 10 and its pushing it to be even op 15.

he's definitely viable though

Speaking of viability, who joined the list of viable characters? Do we consider Game and Watch, Robin, and Lucario viable now?

I think Lucario is based purely on game mechanics favoring him in smash 4 with rage and Aura...on the fence with Game and Watch and Robin though, I think Robin is better than Game and Watch though based on notable tourney wins.

Shout outs to Shulk and Little Mac who did decent too, they might get promoted to lower mid within the next list, Mac for sure anyways.

At the very least, i hope this tourney confirms without a shadow ball of a doubt that Mewtwo is the best pokemon in the game viability wise.

But who is better between Pika and Lucario? I think it's close, with Greninja in 4th, then a large gap after...Zard, gap, Jigglypuff.

 

[Nu~]

As far as shiek he beat all the best shieks quite easily.

God I hate this.

Have we forgotten the 2 sds from Mr.R and the one sd from Void?

The fact that both managed to catch up to kame (but still lost of course) after the sds are a testament to just how awful that matchup is.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speaking of viability, who joined the list of viable characters? Do we consider Game and Watch, Robin, and Lucario viable now?

I think Lucario is based purely on game mechanics favoring him in smash 4 with rage and Aura...on the fence with Game and Watch and Robin though, I think Robin is better than Game and Watch though based on notable tourney wins.

Shout outs to Shulk and Little Mac who did decent too, they might get promoted to lower mid within the next list, Mac for sure anyways.

At the very least, i hope this tourney confirms without a shadow ball of a doubt that Mewtwo is the best pokemon in the game viability wise.

But who is better between Pika and Lucario? I think it's close, with Greninja in 4th, then a large gap after...Zard, gap, Jigglypuff.

You think Lucario is better then Greninja?

What are you smoking and can I please have some?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

The thing with new two for mega man is that he is really like and big so some of our reliable kill moves like utilt and Usmash are quite effective. I would says it's a 50-50 match

 

[Ninety]

I do hope that Dath's placings at least get people to consider Robin as having a place in tournament play. Shame his elimination of AnTi wasn't on stream.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

It's a god damn shame Megaman's charge shot is so worthless, I watched EVO in its entirety and I didn't see it used even a single time. Crash bomb doesn't seem to have a secret use for high level players either, that move never seemed to be good for anything other than attaching to someone with respawn invincibility.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Also when doing this I noticed some of the stuff on Kuroganehammer has to just be wrong. I didn't write down specific examples, but off the top of my head, on stock 2 of the second game, when Marth started off with a dancing blade, his site doesn't show it as being possible to do 2, 3, 3, and 4 damage from Dancing Blade. There was a good amount of other stuff like that, but I didn't make notes of when or where it was.

Stale move negation

 

[blackghost]

Is anyone else impressed that this is the SECOND time a japanease player has come over here and demonstrated that even the most "campy" characters can have explosive rushdown offense when precisely applied?


(also RIP bayo you are not solo viable.)

 

[L9999]

Speaking of viability, who joined the list of viable characters? Do we consider Game and Watch, Robin, and Lucario viable now?

I think Lucario is based purely on game mechanics favoring him in smash 4 with rage and Aura...on the fence with Game and Watch and Robin though, I think Robin is better than Game and Watch though based on notable tourney wins.

Shout outs to Shulk and Little Mac who did decent too, they might get promoted to lower mid within the next list, Mac for sure anyways.

At the very least, i hope this tourney confirms without a shadow ball of a doubt that Mewtwo is the best pokemon in the game viability wise.

But who is better between Pika and Lucario? I think it's close, with Greninja in 4th, then a large gap after...Zard, gap, Jigglypuff.

Since when Lucario is not viable? He is just a bipolar mess. By Tuesday we will go back to say Lucario sucks, than a Japanese Lucario/Serge/X will place good and say "look guys, Lucario" GnW is very volatile and kinda sucks, but for having placings like 17th and non-Regi players doing good, I don't think we should still group him with the more crappy characters that do nothing at all (Kirby). Robin has alway roamed in "meh, mid tier, could be low tier" category. Shulk and Mac have been doing well recently as well.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Is anyone else impressed that this is the SECOND time a japanease player has come over here and demonstrated that even the most "campy" characters can have explosive rushdown offense when precisely applied?


(also RIP bayo you are not solo viable.)

This may definitely be a dumb question but just so we're clear, you're referring to Aba right?

 

[SaltyKracka]

This may definitely be a dumb question but just so we're clear, you're referring to Aba right?

No, he's referring to Ranai.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ok so lets talk counter match-ups. Who cleanly beats MM?

In my own experience, Mario's rough:

1. Being a heavyweight in general against Mario is going to make you have a bad day and Megaman's no exception. Gets juggled for days against him and tilt locks can be done at higher percentages because of this too.

2. Cape is the most risk free and hard to punish reflector in the game and especially effective against metal blade. If you throw the blade and Mario capes it, you're usually put in enough hit stun for Mario to quickly run over and grab you leading to typical Mario stuff.

3. Mario's aerial mobility makes him a constant shark in the water and can often barely give Megaman breathing room to set up things.

4. A minor thing but FLUDD screws up spacing and a lot of Megaman's best tactics involve being at the right place at the right time, especially for kills.

I'm going to say 6-4 in Mario's favor but possibly worse.

 

[blackghost]

Since when Lucario is not viable? He is just a bipolar mess. By Tuesday we will go back to say Lucario sucks, than a Japanese Lucario/Serge/X will place good and say "look guys, Lucario" GnW is very volatile and kinda sucks, but for having placings like 17th and non-Regi players doing good, I don't think we should still group him with the more crappy characters that do nothing at all (Kirby). Robin has alway roamed in "meh, mid tier, could be low tier" category. Shulk and Mac have been doing well recently as well.

i have a friend that plays shulk from what i've seen shulk is just mu dependent. he looks absolutely amazing fighting cloud but against true rushdown shulks frame data simply sufficates him.

 

[MistressRemilia]

You think Lucario is better then Greninja?

What are you smoking and can I please have some?

I mean, Greninja's legacy of dissapointing results certainly makes me question if his theory isn't straight up wrong. His players aren't bad for sure, but they're simply not reaching standards you'd except from a character with such a strong theory as him: Theoritically, this character is supposed to have one tough matchup, but still in the realm of doable, a bunch of matchups in the advantage of the opponent, and that's pretty much it for bad matchups.
Lucario is probably the hugest wildcard in the game & a very hard character to evaluate accurately, and Day's result kind of proves it: Not to discredit the player by any means, but who expected Day, out of all players, to actually reach Top 16 at EVO, beating Rain in arguably the worst matchup of Lucario ( Cloud ) ? Not a lot of people.
I don't like to bring this argument but Lucario is one of these characters who needs to get players sent to major events to start getting the recognition that he deserves: The 3 best Lucario players: Serge, Motsunabe & Tsu never had the chance to travel out of their countries. As sad as it is, that's how it works: Look at Earth, one of the most consistent Japanese players & one of the best, yet his name is only brought up when Pit is mentionned, and then, it's as if the multiple victories over strong players of all kind dissapear, and we go back to Pit's poor theory based on his suposed " mediocrity at everything ".

So huh yeah, back to my point. the recent events make me pretty faithful on Lucario's ability to reach high placements in majors when one of its players who is arguably below some other Lucarios in skills managed to get this far.
However, i do understand anyone who thinks Greninja is the better character. It kind of goes to " Theory vs Results " to me: I'm one to focus on what's happening and not what may or may not happen, which leads into me thinking the oppsite, despite acknowledging that Greninja's theory is far stronger than Lucario's on any side: Matchups or just the character itself.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Speaking of viability, who joined the list of viable characters? Do we consider Game and Watch, Robin, and Lucario viable now?

Who knows because the community can't agree what viable means. Does it only mean able to reasonably win major tournaments? Does it mean rank in top 8? 16? 32? Are we talking by region or are we talking globally? Depending on people's definitions, we're looking at lists only 10 characters long or edging on 40 because there really isn't a community standard.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean, Greninja's legacy of dissapointing results certainly makes me question if his theory isn't straight up wrong. His players aren't bad for sure, but they're simply not reaching standards you'd except from a character with such a strong theory as him: Theoritically, this character is supposed to have one tough matchup, but still in the realm of doable, a bunch of matchups in the advantage of the opponent, and that's pretty much it for bad matchups.
Lucario is probably the hugest wildcard in the game & a very hard character to evaluate accurately, and Day's result kind of proves it: Not to discredit the player by any means, but who expected Day, out of all players, to actually reach Top 16 at EVO, beating Rain in arguably the worst matchup of Lucario ( Cloud ) ? Not a lot of people.
I don't like to bring this argument but Lucario is one of these characters who needs to get players sent to major events to start getting the recognition that he deserves: The 3 best Lucario players: Serge, Motsunabe & Tsu never had the chance to travel out of their countries. As sad as it is, that's how it works: Look at Earth, one of the most consistent Japanese players & one of the best, yet his name is only brought up when Pit is mentionned, and then, it's as if the multiple victories over strong players of all kind dissapear, and we go back to Pit's poor theory based on his suposed " mediocrity at everything ".

So huh yeah, back to my point. the recent events make me pretty faithful on Lucario's ability to reach high placements in majors when one of its players who is arguably below some other Lucarios in skills managed to get this far.
However, i do understand anyone who thinks Greninja is the better character. It kind of goes to " Theory vs Results " to me: I'm one to focus on what's happening and not what may or may not happen, which leads into me thinking the oppsite, despite acknowledging that Greninja's theory is far stronger than Lucario's on any side: Matchups or just the character itself.

Luccario isnt worth a damn until he gets his ass beat.

Thats not theory that is LITERALLY his design.

 

[Y2Kay]

I am getting tired of people saying Greninja has poor results. The character has had respectable tourney placements for a while now. He still needs improvement, but BEAST VI wasn't the first good tournament placing, nor was it the only one.

 

[Murlough]

The thing with new two for mega man is that he is really like and big so some of our reliable kill moves like utilt and Usmash are quite effective. I would says it's a 50-50 match

Good luck landing those on a good Mewtwo, bud. I can't see a situation where a Mewtwo would get hit with an Up-Smash from Megaman other than him whiffing a fair. And up-tilt should never hit unless you manage to get a shield break. (EDIT NOTE: Or if you manage to land that jab lock combo Kame was doing...crap thats scary, actually...)

I'm not saying Mewtwo destroys Megaman. I think its an advantage for us but we don't completely own him. I am really sick of players on here saying the Mewtwo matchup isn't as bad as others say because he is light and big. Those two factors don't completely alter an entire matchup.

 

[420quickscoper]

The thing with new two for mega man is that he is really like and big so some of our reliable kill moves like utilt and Usmash are quite effective. I would says it's a 50-50 match

If being light and big was such a factor in all of Mewtwo's matchups then Mewtwo would be losing quite a few MUs.
I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've said it a bunch of times:

Jigglypuff having a f1 invincible kill move, which can be done out of the best SHAD in the game, puts a very significant lower bound on how bad she can ever truly be. No matter how bad or risky the other aspects of that move or the rest of her moveset is, or how bad-or-not the other "worst" characters are, that "potential floor" will not change.

 

[Ninety]

I think the issue isn't that Greninja's placements are poor, per se. It's more that they're simply decent, above average but nothing too special, in stark contrast by the theory put forward by his mains. No offense.

 

[Nobie]

The only thing I want to mention about Mewtwo vs. Mega Man is that Leaf Shield can really mess with Mewtwo due to its large size. Sometimes you'll think you can hit Mega Man only for Mewtwo's big ol' head to get clipped by a leaf.

As for Jigglypuff, related to what Thinkaman mentioned, I watched some of Hungrybox's Smash 4 matches. In one case, he literally rolled into a rest, and while it's easy to think, "Who can get hit by that?" you then have to remember how fast Rest actually is.