Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[StaffofSmashing]

Exactly like ReRaze above me said: You're frankly not helping. People put it in their heads that Marth is just a better Lucina, nobody tries her, and now we don't even know what the character can really do. If you "frankly don't care for her", then why are you even talking about her?
I refuse to see her as "just worse Marth", to me, there's more to her than just that.

Aighty then, I see where you're coming from, and from a standpoint of "We don't know what she does because no one uses her." yeah. From this list I've found linked somewhere in this post, she has no tipper but generally allows for a more reckless and aggressive play style as opposed to Marth's spacing play style.

But ZeRo's opinion of the best Lucina, C-Lu, hasn't had much, mostly results in Canada. I'll be more inclined to believe Lucina is at least on par with Marth when Lucina players start taking her to the next level.

Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

 

[Tizio Random]

I know this isn't related with the topic going on now but I'm actually really impressed that Bowser Jr, Charizard (with two people representing nonetheless), Shulk and Zelda made it 65th at a tournament as large as EVO. Zelda and Charizard in particular that see almost no results outplacing on going even with characters like Luigi, Peach, Bayonetta, Falcon and others is amazing.

 

[ReRaze]

she has no tipper but generally allows for a more reckless and aggressive play style as opposed to Marth's spacing play style.

This is wrong on so many levels.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

This is wrong on so many levels.

Please correct me, I don't play her myself.

 

[ReRaze]

Please correct me, I don't play her myself.

Shes exactly the same the same as Marth, A zoner, you can't be more reckless or aggressive or you get punished you need to space with your sword just as much as Marth, the only difference the no tipper makes is you simply get less damage and kill power at the base and and more at the tip but you still play them the same way.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Did evo have any Link representation? I didnt see or hear about any.

Also on the topic of Lucina, she has perks over Marth but is covered in horrible stigma which hurts her more than anything imo.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Shes exactly the same the same as Marth, A zoner, you can't be more reckless or aggressive or you get punished you need to space with your sword just as much as Marth, the only difference the no tipper makes is you simply get less damage and kill power at the base and and more at the tip but you still play them the same way.

I apologize, I just kind of look at Lucina play. I still will be inclined to believe she's on par with Marth when Lucina players get consistently good results.

Did evo have any Link representation? I didnt see or hear about any.

2 Toon Links in Top 64 (Bask and Hyuga) but no normal link from my knowledge.

 

[anas abou]

Did evo have any Link representation? I didnt see or hear about any.

Also on the topic of Lucina, she has perks over Marth but is covered in horrible stigma which hurts her more than anything imo.

adult link sucks, low tier trash lol.

 

[Browny]

I went jiggs at Evo and got to winners finals of my pool except for a set vs a Ryu player and it STILL annoys me the 'competitive impression' people have of jigglypuff.

All I get is 'are you seriously playing jigglypuff?' 'why would you do that?' and people think I'm joking despite me wearing an obnoxiously bright pokemon t-shirt showing I kind of like the characters.

I like how when prince ramen beat zero, people are like 'Play who you want to play!' as a statement that people can play whatever perceived low tier they want, but no one takes me seriously when I use puff.

Although to be fair, it was the lower and mid level players who did this. The better players who ended up beating me at least showed respect. I know a lot of people arent being mean when they comment on me playing jiggs but its just so tiring. I'm not offended, its just lame that I have to explain to people almost every match that yes, I am actually at a national tournament and am NOT using cloud!

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I mean, I play low tiers too. But jesus man, Jigglypuff??

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice you cited Villager as a counterpick character for Fox. Care to explain? I don't see it at all.

Villager can harass Fox horribly offstage but onstage Fox has the advantage in every area. He's far more mobile than Villager, has a reflector, and can easily pressure Villager's shield because of the character's miserable grab.

I really don't think it's in Villager's favor. Not a horrible matchup (NAir and Jab help a ton) but Fox seems to have a definite advantage.

From how I see it:

1. Villager is one of the few characters that doesn't really care about Fox's aerial pressure uairs because dair can beat it and he has reliable air stalls. Lloid's ability to momentum cancel and pocket's ability to wave bounce are also very useful in this match up because they can greatly throw off the timing of Fox's aerial string attempts.

2. It's very easy to put a ton of edgeguarding pressure on him without even leaving the stage. Recovering low is a nonoption for obvious reasons and planting a tree makes Fox think twice about recovering on stage or high. Like against most characters, Villager can easily be aggressive against Fox offstage too and, thanks to Fox being a fastfaller, nair/dair interrupting fire fox can put Fox in a really bad position. Strategically setting up lloids on stage can also manipulate Fox's "flight plan."

3. fsmash can interrupt Fox Illusion and sometimes hit Fox even if Fox hits Villager first. Tthere are weird instances where Villager will still drop the bowling ball even if he's hit and I don't fully understand why. I think it has to do with the power of the attack but, in my own experience, Fox Illusion is one of the moves I've seen this work on the most consistently. I've also seen this happen against Fox's nair and jab.

4. ftilt and dtilt can punish jab's finisher because of their range. Fox is great at pressure but Villager also has decent out of shield options. Obviously, his grab isn't one of them but jab, ftilt/dtilt, short hopped dair/nair are.

5. utilt outprioritizes dair and nair and pointblank Lloids can protect Villager from aerial approaches.

6. rage against Fox means killing as early as 40-50% with good reads but consistently killing at 80-90% in this match up is not difficult.

7. dthrow combos work at higher percentages and strings of jabs work longer because Fox is a fast faller

8. one of the easier reflector/absorber for Villager to work around/punish : Mario=Dr. Mario> Rosalina > Mewtwo >Palutena > Falco > the Pits > Fox > other Villagers >Mother boys > ROB

9. getting ledgetrumped in this match up is pretty much certain death for Fox if the Villager has the slightest clue what they're doing because bair hits Fox like a truck and sets up point # 2.

I'm going to say it's at least 6-4. Being a fast faller, being light, and having a fairly linear and predictable recovery are the main things that hurt Fox in this match

 

[Wintermelon43]

I went jiggs at Evo and got to winners finals of my pool except for a set vs a Ryu player and it STILL annoys me the 'competitive impression' people have of jigglypuff.

All I get is 'are you seriously playing jigglypuff?' 'why would you do that?' and people think I'm joking despite me wearing an obnoxiously bright pokemon t-shirt showing I kind of like the characters.

I like how when prince ramen beat zero, people are like 'Play who you want to play!' as a statement that people can play whatever perceived low tier they want, but no one takes me seriously when I use puff.

Although to be fair, it was the lower and mid level players who did this. The better players who ended up beating me at least showed respect. I know a lot of people arent being mean when they comment on me playing jiggs but its just so tiring. I'm not offended, its just lame that I have to explain to people almost every match that yes, I am actually at a national tournament and am NOT using cloud!

You live in Australia, right? If so, you'd better not tell them where you came from.

"Hold up, dude. You came from Australia to Vagas to participate in the biggest smash 4 tournament in the world where it's virtually impossible to make top 16 and win money unless you're a top player..... to play Jigglypuff?"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

From how I see it:

1. Villager is one of the few characters that doesn't really care about Fox's aerial pressure uairs because dair can beat it and he has reliable air stalls. Lloid's ability to momentum cancel and pocket's ability to wave bounce are also very useful in this match up because they can greatly throw off the timing of Fox's aerial string attempts.

2. It's very easy to put a ton of edgeguarding pressure on him without even leaving the stage. Recovering low is a nonoption for obvious reasons and planting a tree makes Fox think twice about recovering on stage or high. Like against most characters, Villager can easily be aggressive against Fox offstage too and, thanks to Fox being a fastfaller, nair/dair interrupting fire fox can put Fox in a really bad position. Strategically setting up lloids on stage can also manipulate Fox's "flight plan."

3. fsmash can interrupt Fox Illusion and sometimes hit Fox even if Fox hits Villager first. Tthere are weird instances where Villager will still drop the bowling ball even if he's hit and I don't fully understand why. I think it has to do with the power of the attack but, in my own experience, Fox Illusion is one of the moves I've seen this work on the most consistently. I've also seen this happen against Fox's nair and jab.

4. ftilt and dtilt can punish jab's finisher because of their range. Fox is great at pressure but Villager also has decent out of shield options. Obviously, his grab isn't one of them but jab, ftilt/dtilt, short hopped dair/nair are.

5. utilt outprioritizes dair and nair and pointblank Lloids can protect Villager from aerial approaches.

6. rage against Fox means killing as early as 40-50% with good reads but consistently killing at 80-90% in this match up is not difficult.

7. dthrow combos work at higher percentages and strings of jabs work longer because Fox is a fast faller

8. one of the easier reflector/absorber for Villager to work around/punish : Mario=Dr. Mario> Rosalina > Mewtwo >Palutena > Falco > the Pits > Fox > other Villagers >Mother boys > ROB

9. getting ledgetrumped in this match up is pretty much certain death for Fox if the Villager has the slightest clue what they're doing because bair hits Fox like a truck and sets up point # 2.

I'm going to say it's at least 6-4. Being a fast faller, being light, and having a fairly linear and predictable recovery are the main things that hurt Fox in this match

The theorycraft is strong with this one.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Rosa vs Villy is not even close to a lopsided match up. In my Rosa match up chart I said it was slightly in Rosa's favor, but pushing even. Villy has a lot going for him in the match up, like terrorizing her with bowling balls off stage. It pretty much forces Rosa to recover high and just take whatever beating she will take. If Rosa must grab the ledge, even if Rosa somehow avoids bowling ball death, Luma's death is guaranteed. Villager is also one of the very few characters that can actually challenge Rosa's up-airs thanks to his amazing Dair. Beyond that, Villager can camp Rosa pretty effectively, just as Rosa can camp him. So it's really a who-is-going-to-blink-first kind of match up, in which neither side can penetrate the other's defenses easily. Overall there's a misconception that the match up is trash for Villy just because Rosa has gravitational pull. That's hardly the case. As long as the Villager player understands that he can't just recklessly lloid rocket and run into Rosa as he does with other characters, he's generally going to be okay. He just needs to play the match up differently (i.e. campier). Ranai demonstrated at the end of the set just how hard one bad gravitational pull can be punished.

Something you'll notice about the Dabuz vs Ranai set is that when Ranai was landing attacks, he was doing it by short hopping over Luma and consistently hitting Rosa in the face. Ranai made it look easy but this is actually pretty difficult to do and I was genuinely impressed with how often he got in short hopped nairs without Luma countering. Ranai also made knocking away Luma and working around gravitational pull look like child's play when most Villagers struggle with this. Gravitational pull is problematic because it not only absorbs fair, bair, lloid, fsmash, and the tree but, as was shown several times in the set, if Villager is close enough when she uses it, his items will swirl around her and hit Villager, making it a pseudo counter too. I'd also argue that recovering high against Villager isn't at all bad because Villager's ground speed is garbage and Rosalina recovers at enough of an arc that platforms are easy access. On a flat stage it's more of an issue but Rosa shouldn't be scared of recovering high against Villager on stages like Battlefield and Town and City. Landing against Rosa is a nightmare too because uair has goofy range and a ton of priority. From below, Rosa shuts down Villager's aerial approaches with utilt, usmash, and uair pretty easily which is why, if Ranai did aerials, he did them practically horizontal from short hops.

I feel like Dabuz lost because he didn't play campy enough because you could see Ranai's leads evaporate as soon Dabuz started to play extra defensively and that's essentially what happened in game 2 and why game 3 was so clutch. Rosalina is a defensive nightmare against zoners and I feel like the only zoner who doesn't inherently struggle against her is Megaman.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I think I have said it before but I think Jigglypuff is an extremely underrated character with potential that will probably never be realized because "oh shes the worst character in the game lmao why would i play her lol"
She has a lot going for her that will never be acknowledged because of a bottom tier stigma, much like Lucina

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Eh. I think Marth would be better served getting Nair to DB confirm more consistent with last hit tippers. Kills really well.

I keep hearing you say this but is it actually possible to guarantee a tipper on the last hit of DB?

I don't see how when DI exists and most characters pop out long before the last hit at higher percents.

If this was really a thing wouldn't all top Marths be doing it 24/7 for early reliable kills?

Well fear not! I've been doing some labbing and Marth has a kill confirm too akin to this except with....Sour Nair into Rising Tipper Uair. You can literally do it on top of Mario and Sheik.

I'm serious, it works CONSISTENTLY at like 120-125% (No Rage) against Mario, Sheik, and ZSS so far. His initial Uair hitboxes must have VERY generous tippers =3

If you don't get it on top of someone, you can drift back a little during your jump and tip the Uair like that. It works fairly well and consistently.

Rising Uair confirmed effective? HRMMM

This one seems far more reliable. And I definitely see Marths doing fairs and non-tipper nairs in situations where this could be a way better option.

If it kills at around 120 without rage on FD, that's terrific. You're looking at 105 or lower with a decent amount of rage. And not many characters have aerial kill confirms like that if any at all (that ignore stage positioning being vertical kills). Plus your opponent is almost guaranteed to DI it badly as no one expects an uair in that situation.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The theorycraft is strong with this one.

Then rebuttal it. It's not like I'm going to hand out infractions if you make better arguments.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think I have said it before but I think Jigglypuff is an extremely underrated character with potential that will probably never be realized because "oh shes the worst character in the game lmao why would i play her lol"
She has a lot going for her that will never be acknowledged because of a bottom tier stigma, much like Lucina

I semi-agree with this.

I agree with you in the sense that I find it surprising just how many people consider Jigglypuff the outright worst in the game, and how few people explicitly disagree with that. In fact, Jigglypuff is probably the only character in recent FG history that is simultaneously bottom tier and downplayed.

I disagree, however, with the idea that she has a significant amount of untapped potential - she's a fairly one-dimensional character at heart, and easy to learn how to fight against.

She's bottom 5 for sure, simply because the new mechanics Smash 4 brought in do her almost no favours and because a large amount of low and mid tier veterans were buffed whereas she... wasn't. Tis a sad life for Jiggs.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I think I have said it before but I think Jigglypuff is an extremely underrated character with potential that will probably never be realized because "oh shes the worst character in the game lmao why would i play her lol"
She has a lot going for her that will never be acknowledged because of a bottom tier stigma, much like Lucina

Well, no, this is wrong. Just because it effects Lucina doesn't mean suddenly you can start saying that about every character. Lucina is Marth without a tipper, that's all she is. Half the games a Marth player plays, he would actually be better off playing as Lucina depending on how they got their KO's and how many tippers they landed. As far as those two characters go, they are actually pretty close to being even. The stigma Lucina faces is because of two things.

1. fanboys who are playing her for that reason and that reason alone. *Mod note: I don't care if it's trendy, don't call people f**s*
2. People for some reason think that the perfect, ideal Marth game will allow you to tipper 100% of the time, since people ignore the fact that in a game that matters you have a skilled opponent using their own character who is actively trying to avoid your tipper and more importantly, kill you. The fact of the matter is sometimes hitting a tipper is just out of your control and every time a Marth hits an opponent and DOESN'T tipper, he's losing out on free damage he would get as Lucina. Potentially even a KO, because as much as people like to bring up Marth killing early with a tipper fsmash, they forget that Lucina can kill early with a hilt fsmash.

As far as representation goes, any Marth player can play Lucina and any Lucina player can play Marth. I accept that down to the wire, if you want to be as optimal as possible they don't have to occupy exactly the same spot in a tier list, but anyone who says Lucina is even an entire tier below Marth is just being bias.

To bring it back to Jigglypuff, that stigma about her being garbage didn't just appear out of thin air. It exists because she is garbage and as of now neither you nor anyone else is able to convince anyone otherwise. To be honest, nobody that's relevant even trying to argue to the contrary. Some characters are underrated in this game, some are overrated, but knowing that doesn't mean you can just claim that about anyone willy nilly.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Maybe Jiggs is underrated but with a huge cast and how balanced this game is, someone still has to be the worst. The difference with this game compared to Melee and Brawl is that there isn't an enormous drop off between the tiers and most of the cast can actually be taken competitively seriously. In Melee and Brawl, anything below high mid tier wasn't meant to be taken seriously ever and you only ever picked anything considered low tier if you wanted to purposely embarrass your opponent. What I do know is that most people agree that either Jiggs or Mii Swordsman is the worst character in the game despite the fact they aren't Brawl Ganondorf or Melee Kirby levels of God awful.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Something you'll notice about the Dabuz vs Ranai set is that when Ranai was landing attacks, he was doing it by short hopping over Luma and consistently hitting Rosa in the face. Ranai made it look easy but this is actually pretty difficult to do and I was genuinely impressed with how often he got in short hopped nairs without Luma countering. Ranai also made knocking away Luma and working around gravitational pull look like child's play when most Villagers struggle with this. Gravitational pull is problematic because it not only absorbs fair, bair, lloid, fsmash, and the tree but, as was shown several times in the set, if Villager is close enough when she uses it, his items will swirl around her and hit Villager, making it a pseudo counter too. I'd also argue that recovering high against Villager isn't at all bad because Villager's ground speed is garbage and Rosalina recovers at enough of an arc that platforms are easy access. On a flat stage it's more of an issue but Rosa shouldn't be scared of recovering high against Villager on stages like Battlefield and Town and City. Landing against Rosa is a nightmare too because uair has goofy range and a ton of priority. From below, Rosa shuts down Villager's aerial approaches with utilt, usmash, and uair pretty easily which is why, if Ranai did aerials, he did them practically horizontal from short hops.

I feel like Dabuz lost because he didn't play campy enough because you could see Ranai's leads evaporate as soon Dabuz started to play extra defensively and that's essentially what happened in game 2 and why game 3 was so clutch. Rosalina is a defensive nightmare against zoners and I feel like the only zoner who doesn't inherently struggle against her is Megaman.

Consistently hitting Rosa in the face is simply what a good Villager will do in the match up, unless the Rosa goes into her shell - which presents its own problems by allowing Villager to dictate the pace of the match. It's very difficult for Rosa to get in on a Villager that is playing keep away in a smart way.

Trying to use gravitational pull close to a predicted projectile move is a pure gimmick; it sounds nice in theory but in reality a Rosa player is more likely to get absolutely bodied for trying to pull that off. This reminds of of the Dabuz/Abdango match at Apex 2015; Bill Trinen tweeted that Dabuz should try to use gravitational pull that way and be more aggressive with it, and Dabuz shut him down saying that was a terrible idea.

You're right that recovering high against Villager isn't the worst thing in the world, but first of all, sometimes you get pushed far enough off the stage that you simply can't do it, and often Villager is just going to be able to hit you and keep you in a bad position. The point is that the balling bowl looms over the whole match up, even when it doesn't connect. And when it does, it often means the game.

I'm not saying this with 20/20 hindsight. I said all of this before Dabuz and Ranai faced off yesterday.

And to say Rosa shuts down all zoners besides Mega Man is hardly true. I also think she has some issues with Olimar and Toon Link (something I said long before Hyuga beat Kirihara twice at EVO). I call those even match ups.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

And to say Rosa shuts down all zoners besides Mega Man is hardly true. I also think she has some issues with Olimar and Toon Link (something I said long before Hyuga beat Kirihara twice at EVO). I call those even match ups.

Nah

 

[FeelMeUp]

I honestly think that Jiggs can't beat any character aside from Ganon if they just camp her, and that kinda blows up any potential she could have.
Like I've said before, though. She's still very good vs a lot of top tiers if they don't know the MU(Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, etc)

 

[Iron Kraken]

Nah

The reason I'm not a fan of the Olimar match up from Rosa's perspective is that because she can't absorb Pikmin (besides purples) she is forced to rush in on a zoning character, which is not how she is best played. But granted, she can juggle him and destroy his recovery, which makes the match up no worse than even for her.

Anyway, I gave my entire match up chart the other day, so I'll just post it again. EVO didn't change my opinion on any match ups; in fact it only reinforced them.

(Order within tiers doesn't matter)

Significant Advantage:
Advantage:
Slight Advantage:
Even:
Slight Disadvantage:
Disadvantage:

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Why do you guys think Ness's results have been lackluster lately? I don't believe he's gotten even top 25 at the last couple of super majors. He was doing pretty decently if I recall when Smash 4 first came out.

On paper he seems like a pretty good character.

He has some of the most reliable kill power in the game between having the second best kill grab arguably (only Mewtwo's up throw is better in more situations) and some of the best aerials for killing (Bair and uair).

Seriously, you'd be hard pressed to find other characters with that much kill power on their aerials that also happen to have fairly fast startups, that's actually an incredibly rare trait in Smash 4. You've got characters like Ganon and Bowser but throwing out their slow laggy aerials in neutral is obviously a much bigger commitment.

I know he's very gimpable if he's forced to up B, but the same holds true for Diddy and Cloud who are still considered top 4 in the game. So that can't be the only reason.

So what exactly about Ness do you guys think holds him back? Is his neutral really that much worse than the characters above him? If so, what specifically about his neutral sucks?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Hitting Rosalina in the face from a distance with fair and bair isn't difficult but consistently hitting Rosalina in the face with pointblank shorthopped fairs and bairs out of perfect shields while being sandwiched between her and the Throw Pillow of Death is pretty impressive. Again, Ranai made it look easy. As for keepaway, Rosa still has the advantage because, from a distance, the worst Villager can do is pepper with fair and bair (which she can largely avoid by crawling because of how tight the window is) while Rosa can use gravity well and rely on Luma to absorb hits. Rosa's defensive tactics also tend to work out because she can outrange Villager very easily and also has a much easier time killing him than he does killing her. In the long run, Rosa can much more easily time out Villager than he can her because he's slower, has less range for a majority of his attacks, and doesn't have a living shield to stall for time. I still argue that Dabuz lost because he was too aggressive and, even then, it was a set that still pretty much came down to who would be the first to land one strong hit.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Why do you guys think Ness's results have been lackluster lately? I don't believe he's gotten even top 25 at the last couple of super majors. He was doing pretty decently if I recall when Smash 4 first came out.

On paper he seems like a pretty good character.

He has some of the most reliable kill power in the game between having the second best kill grab arguably (only Mewtwo's up throw is better in more situations) and some of the best aerials for killing (Bair and uair).

Seriously, you'd be hard pressed to find other characters with that much kill power on their aerials that also happen to have fairly fast startups, that's actually an incredibly rare trait in Smash 4. Obviously you've got characters like Ganon and Bowser but throwing out their slow laggy aerials in neutral is obviously a much bigger commitment.

I know he's very gimpable if he's forced to up B, but the same holds true for Diddy and Cloud who are still considered top 4 in the game. So that can't be the only reason.

So what exactly about Ness do you guys think holds him back? Is his neutral really that much worse than the characters above him? If so, what specifically about his neutral sucks?

Lack of speed is likely a major issue. Most of the top tiers can simply camp Ness out.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Hitting Rosalina in the face from a distance with fair and bair isn't difficult but consistently hitting Rosalina in the face with pointblank shorthopped fairs and bairs out of perfect shields while being sandwiched between her and the Throw Pillow of Death is pretty impressive. Again, Ranai made it look easy. As for keepaway, Rosa still has the advantage because, from a distance, the worst Villager can do is pepper with fair and bair (which she can largely avoid by crawling because of how tight the window is) while Rosa can use gravity well and rely on Luma to absorb hits. Rosa's defensive tactics also tend to work out because she can outrange Villager very easily and also has a much easier time killing him than he does killing her. In the long run, Rosa can much more easily time out Villager than he can her because he's slower, has less range for a majority of his attacks, and doesn't have a living shield to stall for time. I still argue that Dabuz lost because he was too aggressive and, even then, it was a set that still pretty much came down to who would be the first to land one strong hit.

To be totally clear, I still think the match up is slightly in Rosa's favor. I was just highlighting the issues Rosa has in the match up to explain why I think it's a close match up, as opposed to a dumpster fire of a match up as someone here claimed.

 

[Amadeus9]

The reason I'm not a fan of the Olimar match up from Rosa's perspective is that because she can't absorb Pikmin (besides purples) she is forced to rush in on a zoning character, which is not how she is best played. But granted, she can juggle him and destroy his recovery, which makes the match up no worse than even for her.

Anyway, I gave my entire match up chart the other day, so I'll just post it again. EVO didn't change my opinion on any match ups; in fact it only reinforced them.

(Order within tiers doesn't matter)

Significant Advantage:
Advantage:
Slight Advantage:
Even:
Slight Disadvantage:
Disadvantage:

Curious why pika would be disadvantageous? I would think such a stubby character would have issues getting past luma at all

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Lack of speed is likely a major issue. Most of the top tiers can simply camp Ness out.

That's definitely something I've felt when playing Ness. I had trouble getting in on really campy players, I thought I just sucked.

I mean he doesn't FEEL any less mobile in the air than most characters (ignoring ridiculous examples like Mario) but who knows. But now that you mentioned it:

Rosa can just harass with Luma.
Diddy banana/peanut camps
Sheik camps with needles
Cloud camps with limit charging
Sonic camps with speed and invincible moves

I guess most top tiers in this game do have stellar camp games.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why do you guys think Ness's results have been lackluster lately? I don't believe he's gotten even top 25 at the last couple of super majors. He was doing pretty decently if I recall when Smash 4 first came out.

Probably because he easily has the worst disadvantage state of any high tier and just about every top player knows how to properly take full advantage of it at this point. I'm not fully sure what his match up spread is but I know is comically bad while I've seen people complain about the matchups too.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I keep hearing you say this but is it actually possible to guarantee a tipper on the last hit of DB?

I don't see how when DI exists and most characters pop out long before the last hit at higher percents.

If this was really a thing wouldn't all top Marths be doing it 24/7 for early reliable kills?

This one seems far more reliable. And I definitely see Marths doing fairs and non-tipper nairs in situations where this could be a way better option.

If it kills at around 120 without rage on FD, that's terrific. You're looking at 105 or lower with a decent amount of rage. And not many characters have aerial kill confirms like that if any at all (that ignore stage positioning being vertical kills). Plus your opponent is almost guaranteed to DI it badly as no one expects an uair in that situation.

It's as consistent as the Marth player is (pretty much all tippers are). Most characters don't actually fall out of dancing blade, and even if they fall out of one variant of it, there are many other combinations of the move. Fox falls out of the up one, so use the down one. Stuff like that. Not to mention switching up the timing of the swings to mess with your opponent.

The sour nair > uair is something I haven't seen or heard of before however. I usually jab after landing nair 1 to try and get something that way if it isn't already spaced well for Fsmash, and I usually see other Marths do that as well. You could probably set it up with aerial dancing blade 1 > sour nair 1 > uair. I'm having a bit of trouble getting the uair, however I'm getting nair > usmash (both tipped and non-tipped) to true combo. With no DI on Mario on FD sour nair > usmash kills at 109+%. And again we can do the DB1 > nair setup into JC usmash to push the percent window a bit earlier, but it won't work forever. I don't have the means right at this moment to test DI but this seems a bit more reliable and a bit easier to pull off. Plus usmash typically isn't a move that's used very much so it's more likely to be fresh. Definitely worth looking into some more.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why do you guys think Ness's results have been lackluster lately? I don't believe he's gotten even top 25 at the last couple of super majors.

FOW #25 on CEO, NAKAT #9 (he also played Fox though). I think the lack of Ness players is one of his main issues, not many people play him at a top level. I still think he's fairly good though, probably top 20.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Probably because he easily has the worst disadvantage state of any high tier and just about every top player knows how to properly take full advantage of it at this point. I'm not fully sure what his match up spread is but I know is comically bad while I've seen people complain about the matchups too.

Excluding his recovery, what about his disadvantage state sucks?

His rolls and spot dodge seems decent as does his OOS options. His nair is as good as any for disruption.

I guess he can have trouble landing compared to most characters better than him. Doesn't really have a momentum shift or "stall" move or another move that gets him to safety. I guess Cloud doesn't either but he has that ridiculous dair to make up for it.

FOW #25 on CEO, NAKAT #9 (he also played Fox though). I think the lack of Ness players is one of his main issues, not many people play him at a top level. I still think he's fairly good though, probably top 20.

I meant above 25th place, wasn't Fow considered top 15 in the world or so early on? That's a rather low placing for him regardless.

And yeah, I know Nakat used mainly Fox that tournament. Only time I saw him use Ness (vs Hyuga) he lost cleanly.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Curious why pika would be disadvantageous? I would think such a stubby character would have issues getting past luma at all

It's really not all that bad for Rosa for the exact reason you mentioned, but what it comes down to is that Pikachu kills Luma extremely easily in a variety of ways and also absolutely destroys Rosa off stage.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's really not all that bad for Rosa for the exact reason you mentioned, but what it comes down to is that Pikachu kills Luma extremely easily in a variety of ways and also absolutely destroys Rosa off stage.

Pika? Killing easily? Blasphemous.

Edgegaurding makes some sense though. Thanks for reply

 

[Iron Kraken]

FOW #25 on CEO, NAKAT #9 (he also played Fox though). I think the lack of Ness players is one of his main issues, not many people play him at a top level. I still think he's fairly good though, probably top 20.

At this point I think it's fair to call NAKAT a Fox main who uses Ness and Pikachu in certain match ups.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Pika? Killing easily? Blasphemous.

Edgegaurding makes some sense though. Thanks for reply

Read closely. I said Pikachu kills *Luma* easily (which in turn does make killing Rosa a lot easier).

 

[JustSomeScrub]

It's as consistent as the Marth player is (pretty much all tippers are). Most characters don't actually fall out of dancing blade, and even if they fall out of one variant of it, there are many other combinations of the move. Fox falls out of the up one, so use the down one. Stuff like that. Not to mention switching up the timing of the swings to mess with your opponent.

Whenever I've played Marth, against most characters at 110+ (so basically when tipper DB would start killing with a decent amount of rage) they generally fall out of the move within the first hit or 2 especially if I have a lot of rage. The exceptions are heavies and fast fallers. And I've seen this happen to top Marths as well.

I mean if what you are saying is true, then that's a huge oversight by almost all Marth players (not knowing how to time/space DB such that it always tippers). You'd think by now someone would have made an entire guide on how to properly get the move to tipper on all characters or something. But I really think rage and DI are issues with it, I'll believe it being reliable when I see it.

But if it IS reliable, then holy crap. How many characters in this game have a kill option that comes out that fast and can be done out of a dash?

I mean OOS alone this option seems ridiculous. "Oh you did a spaced or crossup bair on my shield? No worries, I"ll just OOS dash DB to tipper and kill you at 110". That's literally game changing.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Excluding his recovery, what about his disadvantage state sucks?

His rolls and spot dodge seems decent as does his OOS options. His nair is as good as any for disruption.

I guess he can have trouble landing compared to most characters better than him. Doesn't really have a momentum shift or "stall" move or another move that gets him to safety. I guess Cloud doesn't either but he has that ridiculous dair to make up for it.

Offstage in general, he's very vulnerable and getting knocked out of his second jump severely limits his options. Take Megaman for example. Megaman has a ton of options against Ness when he's offstage. He can just stand at the ledge and use the pellets, metal blade, and leaf shield to take away his second jump or interrupt PKT2. All the characters I listed has very safe options to simply boop Ness out of his second jump. Because of the weird trajectory of Ness's second jump, grab releases on the edge and ledge trumps are very effective against him too. Although it's very circumstantial and highly risky, Ness is also one of the few characters who you can gimp by jumping into their recovery. You can fall on him and take away his PKT or, if you're confident in your teching or are at low health/a stock up, you can jump into the path of PKT2 and cut the distance it travels by half.