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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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FeelMeUp

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Wonder how long it'll be before Mega Man "this move in a vacuum" complaints start.
OT: MM vs Sheik/Fox/Mario are all still ass matchups, so I doubt he'll ever see top 10-15.
What character in top 10 loses to all 3 of these common top 6-7 choices?
 

Y2Kay

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Wanting more data to come in is nice and all but let's not down play the final result: Megaman got 2nd at EVO. It's not like the results "don't count" until Kame gets 2nd in a huge tourney again.

:150:
 

LancerStaff

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You still do.

Pit at best has Pika's situation (one noticeable main)... while being a worse character. Marth meanwhile got what, 2 top 16 or 1 top 16 and 1 top 32. With a newer metagame because he only because relevant a few patches ago.
Nope lol.

Hoooold your horses there, I'm not saying Pit's a top tier or anything. He's way better then "mediocre." He's good, he's solid. He's not a character who'll never do anything because, well, he has.

How many good Marths are there? Two? Three? And aren't the players Brawl legends? I don't really see how the situation is so different...
 

Nidtendofreak

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Technicially Mega Man has been having consistant results for a while now. Kamemushi has done great in many other tournaments and destroyed japan as much as Trela has destroyed socal. Scatt and Daiki have been doing stuff too lately.

Now, I DO agree that it is too early to say he is top 10 still, but he actually has pretty good consistancy.
Kamemushi already HAD results in Japan, right? Considering Japan and the stacked competition there, there's more than 1 time results. And it's not like Kamemushi's success was a fluke either.
Never said MegaMan didn't have multiple results, same with Mario.

Just something this thread needs stapled to them in general.
 

Jehtt

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I think Mega Man is definitely tournament viable, but I think he's still going to have a hard run if the Mega Man/Mario matchup is as...unpleasant as Ally was making it look.
Kamemushi started adjusting in the second set, but it was a little too late at that point. In the first set against Ally, there were multiple times were he tried to use triple pellets right in the range of Mario's SH nair approach. That basically gave Ally free damage. He also kept using Leaf Shield as a landing tool which Mario destroys with U-smash.
In the second set, he started using more Metal Blade baits and stuck mostly to single and double pellets, which allowed him to keep Mario away more effectively. Upping his edge guarding game helped too. He lost game 3 because he did the worst leaf shield off-stage ever...

I think the difficulty of Mega Man's MUs with Fox and Mario are exaggerated. Still negative, but not complete roadblocks. Sheik is probably his worst matchup still. I know he beat Void, but Void SD'd game 1 and I think he would have won the set had he not done that.
 

JustSomeScrub

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There's little evidence to suggest Sheik is bad for Megaman. Kame didn't get to avoid the best Sheiks at Evo, he fought and defeated all of them (Mr. R, then Void, then Zero). He has also beaten all the notable Sheiks in Japan afaik.

If anything there's a stronger case for Mario being a worse matchup. Kame lost to both Zenyou and Ally.
 
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Ethan7

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So a Mario wins EVO and CEO. Along with GOML, Smash 'N' Splash 1 and 2.
 

FeelMeUp

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There's little evidence to suggest Sheik is bad for Megaman. Kame didn't get to avoid the best Sheiks at Evo, he fought and defeated all of them (Mr. R, then Void, then Zero). He has also beaten all the notable Sheiks in Japan afaik.

If anything there's a stronger case for Mario being a worse matchup. Kame lost to both Zenyou and Ally.
ZeRo only played Sheik once and isn't even a top 5 Sheik.
VoiD and Mr. R lost due to SDs. They were both outplaying Kame for the entire set.

A
G
A
I
N
STOP MAKING MATCHUP CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHO BEAT WHO.
 

Fatmanonice

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Very impressive performance by Ranai, somehow making the Rosa matchup not look like the burning dumpster fire that it actually is. While I still think Villager is underrated, there are still some issues to contend with and Ranai easily had the most stacked line up against him in top 8. Rosa, Mario, and Mewtwo are still pretty bad while Sheik is a lot more managable than it used to be and Megaman is incredibly frustrating. There's still lots of evidence that Villager is still a good choice against ZSS, Ness, Diddy, and Fox though so I'm hoping Ranai's influence encourages people to at least consider Villager as a noteworthy counterpick.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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It's a difficult matchup for everybody who has to approach Mewtwo. That's the majority of the cast and it does include Fox. Dtilt / Fair are just hard walls for anything that tries to approach Mewtwo on the ground or the air so most characters just naturally lose to Mewtwo. Fox for all we know may be one of these characters though we haven't really seen how this matchup plays out at different levels of play or matchup experience. It'll come down to how much Fox players will be able to capitalize on the few openings Mewtwo gives them.

Regardless, I think it's about time we seriously start to take Mewtwo into consideration for top 5.

:059:
I'm glad I wasn't the only to realize that Mewtwo keep away game is incredibly potent to the point where even Sonic struggles as seen with 6wx vs Abadango. Wouldn't be surprised if he is Top 5 considering his keep away + strong power makes a lot of the cast struggle vs him xD
 
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Ropalme1914

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@Emblem Lord I remember that you said that Ryu loses the Sheik matchup because she controls the neutral, and Void only lost because he was playing the matchup very poorly. Today, Trela beat Mr. R, so do you think that can change something? I know that this was offstream, but I think that I find the video, so I will leave it here (That was the only video of Mr. R vs Trela that I found, and it was uploaded today and streamed by Panda Global, so I think that this is the right match).
 

JustSomeScrub

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ZeRo only played Sheik once and isn't even a top 5 Sheik.
VoiD and Mr. R lost due to SDs. They were both outplaying Kame for the entire set.

A
G
A
I
N
STOP MAKING MATCHUP CONCLUSIONS BASED ON WHO BEAT WHO.
Void didn't SD every game. So it still counts. He beats Sheiks in Japan as well.

When Zero mained Sheik he had better results than any other Sheik by far so that's a pretty relevant win as well, even if it's just 1 game.
 
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FeelMeUp

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he reached too hard for the edgeguards.
if you realize you won't hit ryu you need to get back immediately instead of sticking out the bair(which is a very common sheik habit when you miss a bouncing fish).
his conversions were good and neutral was perfect, but he made a bunch of key input errors and made the wrong choices on what followups to choose while at death %

at work so i can't say much more but basically:
too much commitment above 50-60%, which is where sheik should start hauling ass and not engaging him as much.
i played friendlies with trela for 4 hours or so last week in mostly Sheik Ryu and what I noticed was that even if I could 0-100 him or ledge trap him for 30 seconds, it doesn't matter when he can hit me 4 times for 50 and then kill me on the next hit.
Play like you're fighting Melee Puff.
Void didn't SD every game. So it still counts.

When Zero mained Sheik he had better results than any other Sheik by far so that's a pretty relevant win as well, even if it's just 1 game.
yeah, and he's been getting dumped on ever since he took a break and sheik was patched.
don't use outdated results to try and support your point.
 
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Thinkaman

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At any rate, it's quite the relief knowing that with EVO over, our tiers and character rankings are settled once and for all. Thank God.

(Also, turns out EVO has a 80:20 MU against the counter-pick meta. It's almost as if players were going out of their way to experiment before EVO, as evidenced by subtle clues--such as them telling everyone that they were going out of their way to experiment before EVO.)
 

JustSomeScrub

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At any rate, it's quite the relief knowing that with EVO over, our tiers and character rankings are settled once and for all. Thank God.

(Also, turns out EVO has a 80:20 MU against the counter-pick meta. It's almost as if players were going out of their way to experiment before EVO, as evidenced by subtle clues--such as them telling everyone that they were going out of their way to experiment before EVO.)
Even if you don't count Zero, he still beat Void (who didn't SD every game and there's no guarantee he would have won even the game he did, same goes for Mr.R). And then there's Sheiks in Japan he's beaten.

If he only beat one notable Sheik you could argue it wasn't much evidence. Him doing it consistently and against the best Sheiks in the world no less, suggests the matchup is not bad.

I know on paper Sheik gimps Megaman for days but Megaman's recovery isn't even that bad. He's one of the few characters that can jump after up B and has ways to reduce landing lag upon landing.
 
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FeelMeUp

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I was going to write a wall of text on why this MU is ass for MM but I remembered you're the argumentative contrarian.
I'll give 10 points on why the MU is 6:4.
1. Needles completely shut Mega Man down in neutral. Pellets are his entire game and Needles are one of the few projectiles that's better than it in almost every way.
2. Mega Man is one of the easiest characters to combo in the entire game for Sheik.
3. A fair at 0 can convert into 60 damage, and Mega Man has nothing of that level aside from Metal Blade OoS punishes(which don't actually work reliably on Sheik if she's playing properly).
4. Mega Man's recovery is mediocre and linear. Sheik's edgeguarding is top 3 in the game.
5. MM can't land well against Sheik.
6. MM can't get off the ledge as well as a top tier. Sheik has the best ledge trapping in the game.
7. For some reason, shop fair says "nah" to pellets.
8. Sheik has some of the best OoS options in the game. MM does not pressure Sheik's shield very well.
9. Sheik gets a ridiculous amount of grabs vs MM, and his weight+size+fallspeed makes her conversions go on for much much longer than they should.
10. Sheik has the best dash to shield in the game, meaning she can ignore lemons and use her ridiculous out of dash/shield options to start the high damage conversions she's known for against heavier characters.
blablabla
We're not saying Sheik vs MM is ass because "lol sheik edgeguarding neutral"
We're saying it's ass because he's one of the legitimately good characters that everyone knows she's always hurt the viability of by simply existing. Both pre and post patch.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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I was going to write a wall of text on why this MU is *** for MM but I remembered you're the argumentative contrarian.
I'll give 10 points on why the MU is 6:4.
1. Needles completely shut Mega Man down in neutral. Pellets are his entire game and Needles are one of the few projectiles that's better than it in almost every way.
2. Mega Man is one of the easiest characters to combo in the entire game for Sheik.
3. A fair at 0 can convert into 60 damage, and Mega Man has nothing of that level aside from Metal Blade OoS punishes(which don't actually work reliably on Sheik if she's playing properly).
4. Mega Man's recovery is mediocre and linear. Sheik's edgeguarding is top 3 in the game.
5. MM can't land well against Sheik.
6. MM can't get off the ledge as well as a top tier. Sheik has the best ledge trapping in the game.
7. For some reason, shop fair says "nah" to pellets.
8. Sheik has some of the best OoS options in the game. MM does not pressure Sheik's shield very well.
9. Sheik gets a ridiculous amount of grabs vs MM, and his weight+size+fallspeed makes her conversions go on for much much longer than they should.
10. Sheik has the best dash to shield in the game, meaning she can ignore lemons and use her ridiculous out of dash/shield options to start the high damage conversions she's known for against heavier characters.
blablabla
We're not saying Sheik vs MM is *** because "lol sheik edgeguarding neutral"
We're saying it's *** because he's one of the legitimately good characters that everyone knows she's always hurt the viability of by existing both pre and post patch.
I agree with most of these points but Megaman's recovery is not that bad. He can throw out hitboxes towards the ledge before grabbing such as the Crash Bomb and angled Metal Blade. He can jump after doing an up B. These are some options a lot of characters would kill for. Also you're forgetting that Megaman is quite heavy, so it doesn't matter as much if he gets comboed a bit harder by Sheik. In fact a few of those uairs Mr.R/Void landed probably would have killed most characters but MM lived.

At any rate, I retain the fact that results wise, Megaman is winning not Sheik. You could argue that's only true at absolute top level, but I'd argue that's all that matters when we're discussing character potential. I don't care if every other Megaman gets bopped by Sheiks when they don't have the results Kame does. Granted Scatt didn't go to Evo but still.

Also since when is 60:40 considered garbage? Let's assume you are right. That's definitely winnable. And he beats Diddy (people generally thought this before today in case you claim that's recency bias). He has good results versus Cloud. Megaman doing well versus such common tournament threats suggests he can definitely be top 10/12 material as Japan thinks.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Okay.
So by "MM is winning at top level" you mean "Kamemushi is winning vs all Japanese Sheiks and vs ours this one time he finally came to the US."
You should have said that the first time.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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Damn it y'all someone doesn't just become top 10 on the back of a single person's performance, do we have to do this with every tournament..
Thank you. Consistency matters, so let's talk about a character who has become very consistent. Mario. 2 majors under his belt, GOML and EVO, as well as a very good showing at CEO (Cloud may have been the character that won it in the end but it was Mario that got ANTi all the way there.), and I really don't think it's gonna stop anytime soon.
 

Yoshister

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Thank you. Consistency matters, so let's talk about a character who has become very consistent. Mario. 2 majors under his belt, GOML and EVO, as well as a very good showing at CEO (Cloud may have been the character that won it in the end but it was Mario that got ANTi all the way there.), and I really don't think it's gonna stop anytime soon.
I dunno, some people mentioned Megaman doing some stuff in Japan.

Mario is definitely Top 8 though.
Consistently done well thanks to the likes of Ally and Anti.
 
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FamilyTeam

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I don't know what is up with the way people see Mario. He hasn't been nerfed recently and he's only getting good results, but I only see people putting him lower and lower in tier lists. Why? You really can't say he's not atleast Top 10 after his recent results.
 

Thinkaman

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Mario has crossed the Jon Stewart Condescension Meridian, in which even slightly differing views on his tiering can only be expressed via extreme strawmanning and smarmy snark.
 

JustSomeScrub

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Except Megaman's results have been very good for a while now in Japan and it's not just Kame really.

Scatt hasn't been doing too shabby in the States either. He got 4th at a recent fairly stacked touranment and top 16 iirc at CEO (and if you think this isn't impressive, take a look at the list of players that DIDN'T crack top 16).

Also if a single person's performance doesn't matter why do we consider Rosalina top 5? Only Dabuz gets top 8 at nationals with her.
 

StaffofSmashing

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Except Megaman's results have been very good for a while now in Japan and it's not just Kame really.

Scatt hasn't been doing too shabby in the States either. He got 4th at a recent fairly stacked touranment and top 16 iirc at CEO (and if you think this isn't impressive, take a look at the list of players that DIDN'T crack top 16).

Also if a single person's performance doesn't matter why do we consider Rosalina top 5? Only Dabuz gets top 8 at nationals with her.
Xaltis consistantly gets top 32, and falln gets top 16.

Unlike Ryu who has one one really good rep, Pikachu with the same fate, etc.
 

FeelMeUp

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Except Megaman's results have been very good for a while now in Japan and it's not just Kame really.

Scatt hasn't been doing too shabby in the States either. He got 4th at a recent fairly stacked touranment and top 16 iirc at CEO (and if you think this isn't impressive, take a look at the list of players that DIDN'T crack top 16).

Also if a single person's performance doesn't matter why do we consider Rosalina top 5? Only Dabuz gets top 8 at nationals with her.
I'm not a part of we, sorry.
I don't consider Rosa top 5 anymore.
 

Man Li Gi

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Are we so smug about the "balance" that a bad MU is only referred to as a 6:4? Geez.
 

Jehtt

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I've always preferred using words (Slight [dis]advantage, [dis]advantage, considerable [dis]advantage, etc...) to describe MUs since ratios tend to mean different things to different people. To me, 6:4 would be "disadvantage" but that might be "slight disadvantage" to someone else.
 
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FeelMeUp

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55:45 is generally slight disadvantage
6:4 is disadvantage
7:3 is considerable disadvantage
8:2 is find a secondary.
 

Thinkaman

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And here we are again. Time is a flat circle. Thanks, Matthew McConaughey.

On topic: Marth. We were talking about him and his gender-bent version before EVO so rudely interrupted us. And now we have Marth doing well at EVO. Plus, people picked Lucina in EVO tourney sets. Like, on purpose. What's up with that?
 

FamilyTeam

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It's a great time to be a main of either of those, because Marth has been getting nice results, and Lucina's been doing some neat stuff recently.
I always thought that picking between Marth and Lucina really came down to your personal opinion and just what you value in a character, a thought I know some people here share with me.
Maybe you just like having the tipper more, doing setups that lead into it so you can kill early, or you like being more free with your aim, and doing setups that don't matter where your blade ended up hitting.
 

FeelMeUp

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Ness Rosa is nowhere near 8:2. For a few examples of this game's potentially 8:2 matchups:
Ganon Bayo prepatch.
1.1.4 Sheik Ganon.
Greninja 1.1.4 Sheik
MK Rosa
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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On topic: Marth. We were talking about him and his gender-bent version before EVO so rudely interrupted us. And now we have Marth doing well at EVO. Plus, people picked Lucina in EVO tourney sets. Like, on purpose. What's up with that?
Just to clarify, who all used them?
Mr. E and Pugwest for Marth, Xaltis for Lucina. Any others?
 

Shady Shaymin

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I think the only matchup that would approach 8:2 levels is Ness vs Rosa, but maybe that's just me.
Oh come on, that is far from the worst matchup in this game. Sheik vs Ganondorf is at least 80-20. Rosa vs anyone below mid tier without a disjoint tends to be a bloodbath, too, though depending on the character not all of them may be as bad as Ness. I know:4bowserjr:,:4kirby: are particularly horrible in that matchup.
 

meleebrawler

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Oh come on, that is far from the worst matchup in this game. Sheik vs Ganondorf is at least 80-20. Rosa vs anyone below mid tier without a disjoint tends to be a bloodbath, too, though depending on the character not all of them may be as bad as Ness. I know:4bowserjr:,:4kirby: are particularly horrible in that matchup.
But.. all of Jr.'s moves save kart and maybe usmash ARE disjointed.
 
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Y2Kay

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For a few examples of this game's potentially 8:2 matchups:
Greninja and prepatch sheik
I haven never heard this in my life.

How is that 80:20 and Ness vs Rosa most definitely not?

This is kinda ridiculous man.

:150:
 

FeelMeUp

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I haven never heard this in my life.

How is that 80:20 and Ness vs Rosa most definitely not?

This is kinda ridiculous man.

:150:
sheik outclassed greninja in literally every area.
much betterbetter neutral.
much better potential 0 to 50-60 damage/20% punish conversions
actually challenges him offstage while she recovers for free.
far safer(he couldn't punish proper sheik play at ALL)
got camped forever because shurikens were so inferior to needles
consistently died at 100-120 while he can't really kill her reliably.
name anything greninja had and sheik did it ten times better. the matchup was impossible to play if the sheik actually knew how to play it.

ness vs rosa is 7:3 instead of 8:2 because while he gets demolished offstage, he actually does very well for himself in removing luma and playing the neutral. onstage is the majority of the matchup. it's not like you start the game with ness instantly being offstage.
 
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Jams.

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Kamemushi started adjusting in the second set, but it was a little too late at that point. In the first set against Ally, there were multiple times were he tried to use triple pellets right in the range of Mario's SH nair approach. That basically gave Ally free damage. He also kept using Leaf Shield as a landing tool which Mario destroys with U-smash.
In the second set, he started using more Metal Blade baits and stuck mostly to single and double pellets, which allowed him to keep Mario away more effectively. Upping his edge guarding game helped too. He lost game 3 because he did the worst leaf shield off-stage ever...

I think the difficulty of Mega Man's MUs with Fox and Mario are exaggerated. Still negative, but not complete roadblocks. Sheik is probably his worst matchup still. I know he beat Void, but Void SD'd game 1 and I think he would have won the set had he not done that.
Something else I noticed in the Kamemushi vs VoiD set was that VoiD significantly changed up his style on the last stock of game 3. Throughout the first two games and the first stock of game 3, VoiD played very aggressively and was constantly applying pressure to Kamemushi, who was having trouble responding to the pressure. However, in the last stock, he started playing very conservatively, backing off more often, using more zoning fairs in neutral, and needle camping much more; he was probably scared that Kamemushi would hard punish one of his mistakes and end the game. Unfortunately, Mega Man can fish for confirms better than Sheik can at mid range. I honestly feel this shift in playstyle cost VoiD the set, and he was playing the MU much more optimally before.
 

C0rvus

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Day in 13th is a very good result that noone seems to be talking about. Japan rates Lucario very, very highly, and they have players to back it up. Mexico has Serge, the US Day, Japan has more than player one whose names escape me, and all of them garner good results. Lucario is a strong character with a lot of room for growth and development. He's always kinda just been there, not getting much attention from what I've noticed. In a game where many top characters have had early kill moves or throw kill setups cut down or removed, aura will remain strong.
 
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