Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Isn't Blade Beam trash? Eruption seems to be the better move regardless.

Take away Limit Cross Slash and I don't think Cloud would even be that great, though probably still better then Ike. But I don't think Cloud's so ridiculous that Ike might as well not exist like you're implying.

No Blade Beam just isn't crazy like LB CS is.

You can B reverse it and stick it to a ledge to auto 2-frame the entire cast or outright prevent snaps, you can shoot it across the ground and it will hit below the ledge as well, it's transcendent and a good generic landing punish if nothing else. A projectile that kills at 120 on a fast swordsman is a damn good move that's easy to underrate when he has a really broken one that uses up the same meter it does, but it exists. You can also shoot it at angles if you count it following the Lylat Cruise tilting. Incredibly jank but funny.

Taking away Limit CS would still leave him with Blade Beam and a competent DSmash and USmash (you can tech DSmash but only if you react to it fast enough and even then, jesus. USmash's hitbox with interpolation is terrifying: https://i.imgur.com/ENeFc7R.png a reminder that only the very back hit is actually a sourspot.) I actually think Cloud USmash is really underrated, it even hits people on platforms! Its only draw is not killing ludicrously early but since he has Limit moves for that it kind of balances itself out as a stock taker.

 

[Y2Kay]

Don't forget that right now greninja has a very good matchup spread and has better results for now. I know I said it may not be true anymore. but for right now Greninja should be higher. Mewtwo definitely has enough promise to be top 15, but it's completely up to the players to prove it now.

But putting Mewtwo in top 20 but not greninja for right now is silly.

Just like mid tier was overpopulated with sword fighters, I think high tier will be overpopulated with Pokemon (greninja, Mewtwo, and Lucario). All the Pokemon are really good now.

Jigglypuff is a disgrace and is officially dead to me btw.

 

[LancerStaff]

No Blade Beam just isn't crazy like LB CS is.

You can B reverse it and stick it to a ledge to auto 2-frame the entire cast or outright prevent snaps, you can shoot it across the ground and it will hit below the ledge as well, it's transcendent and a good generic landing punish if nothing else. A projectile that kills at 120 on a fast swordsman is a damn good move that's easy to underrate when he has a really broken one that uses up the same meter it does, but it exists. You can also shoot it at angles if you count it following the Lylat Cruise tilting. Incredibly jank but funny.

Taking away Limit CS would still leave him with Blade Beam and a competent DSmash and USmash (you can tech DSmash but only if you react to it fast enough and even then, jesus. USmash's hitbox with interpolation is terrifying: https://i.imgur.com/ENeFc7R.png a reminder that only the very back hit is actually a sourspot.) I actually think Cloud USmash is really underrated, it even hits people on platforms! Its only draw is not killing ludicrously early but since he has Limit moves for that it kind of balances itself out as a stock taker.

I was talking about normal Blade Beam... I don't think Ike was getting anything remotely like Limit Blade Beam.

As far as I can tell Cloud doesn't have any easy ways to end a stock early besides Limit CS. Anything else takes a read or kills fairly late, and that plays into his recovery problems because obviously he needs to go longer without getting gimped. Besides this one thing Cloud seems pretty fair to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I was talking about normal Blade Beam... I don't think Ike was getting anything remotely like Limit Blade Beam.

As far as I can tell Cloud doesn't have any easy ways to end a stock early besides Limit CS. Anything else takes a read or kills fairly late, and that plays into his recovery problems because obviously he needs to go longer without getting gimped. Besides this one thing Cloud seems pretty fair to me.

Oh, I thought you meant Limit Blade Beam. My b. I don't think Ike would want Blade Beam anyways, I think all of his B moves (even Counter) are probably better than regular Blade Beam which is only good at like, boxing out Luigi (lol).

His only other good ways to end stocks are Uair stuff at high % (not really easy perse), Dsmash or USmash which are at fairly conservative kill %s although still not wholly terrible, and Limit n-B really. I won't lie tho, Limit CS is as most people (including myself and you) describe it: game-changing.

Edgeguarding with Limit CS is absurd and the move in general is borko, yeah.

 

[|RK|]

I've gotta disagree with your disagreement! If (pre-nerf) Sheik only got maybe 10% damage and inconsequential stage position as a reward for landing an attack/grab, would she still have an amazing neutral? Yes, because it's about how consistently she can win neutral, not the reward.

Kirby has great reward off of attacks/grabs, why is his neutral considered bottom tier?

If you had no qualms getting hit by old Bowser, that simply means you were OK with playing suboptimally before. As much as I like 3 stock, that's also one of the arguments used in favor of 3 stock: "You can make riskier plays" basically translates to "you can play suboptimally and are more likely to get away with it."

I agree that reward plays some part of neutral, but it's more of a mental aspect, rather than the on-paper/theoretical aspect. If Character A only got a 1% damage reward for winning neutral, and Character B gets a 999% damage reward for winning neutral, but Character A has such an overwhelming neutral that they're expected to win it 99 times out of 100, then no amount of reward changes the fact that Char A has a better neutral. You would definitely be terrified of Character B, but you can't realistically say they have a "good neutral."

tl;dr fully charged Flare Bade vs Sheik Fair

I guess it depends on context. If you're looking at a character as a whole, yes you should take everything into account, but when you're saying "how is his neutral?" as a standalone, it makes sense to just look specifically at that, yknow what I mean?

It's definitely both. From what I understand, threat of an option is an important part of neutral. Kirby has poor neutral because he doesn't get top tier reward (e.g., you die at 0), and his mobility makes it such that you can avoid that threat altogether. Roy's Flare Blade takes too much time to charge and use for it to be a threat. But an option like MK's Dash Attack is always present in your mind, forcing you to cut off your own options drastically. This is in comparison to Kirby (again), who can be avoided without a drastic switch in gameplan.

 

[Y2Kay]

Am I the only who thinks that should never be that far apart?

I understand why some people would think Marth is the best, or Roy is the best. But I'm seeing an alarming of people putting Marcina in Mid tier, but Roy in low or Bottom Tier. Or putting Marth and Roy in mid tier and Lucina in bottom tier. Both of which I believe are wrong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol silly smashboards scientists.

Roy...low tier...

*giggles*

 

[TurboLink]

Am I the only who thinks that should never be that far apart?

I understand why some people would think Marth is the best, or Roy is the best. But I'm seeing an alarming of people putting Marcina in Mid tier, but Roy in low or Bottom Tier. Or putting Marth and Roy in mid tier and Lucina in bottom tier. Both of which I believe are wrong.

Lucina is better than Roy in my opinion. Roy might just be the worst DLC character.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lucina is better than Roy in my opinion. Roy might just be the worst DLC character.

Hey that's your opinion. I'm not too sure how their order goes, but none of them deserve to be in the bottom tiers to me. I think they're all considerably more competent than people give them credit for.

 

[Radical Larry]

Going back on that Jigglypuff discussion, positive qualities are some safe-to-use aerials, powerful attacks, two great semi-spiking moves, Wall-of-Pain via F-Air and a very fast KO opportunity if used right. Oh, and let me not forget to mention great aerial speed and being very hard to combo, as well as a potent shield breaking attack and setup. Then there's her edge-guarding prowess.

But I know of all of her negative qualities, but the biggest reason she'd be considered complete bottom is because of lack of representation. I'd rank her in bottom tier, still, but she's no worse than some of the cast. She's better than the Miis by far and definitely has some good MUs against some low tiers like Doctor Mario and Little Mac, and even Kirby can have some challenges against Puff.

I'd rank her around 7th worst in the game, beating the likes of characters like the Mii Fighters, but still very easily beaten by low tiers like Zelda, Ganondorf and Dedede, and especially Charizard. She's still bottom tier, but not that abysmal as one might think.

I'm going to put up my own specified tier list, just to showcase my thoughts.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm going to put up my own specified tier list, just to showcase my thoughts.

Please don't.

 

[Radical Larry]

Please don't.

It's terrible news for you, but it's just going to be a set of predictions for the 1.1.5 update (and I'm going to call it; there will be another patch update later on), in terms of tiers without trying any bias.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Am I the only who thinks that should never be that far apart?

I understand why some people would think Marth is the best, or Roy is the best. But I'm seeing an alarming of people putting Marcina in Mid tier, but Roy in low or Bottom Tier. Or putting Marth and Roy in mid tier and Lucina in bottom tier. Both of which I believe are wrong.

If you subscribe to the theory that Lucina is inherently inferior to Marth because of no tippers, then I can see putting her in bottom tier on the grounds that there is literally no reason to use her in a competitive context. But even that's a bit of a stretch and requires creative interpretation of the definition of "bottom tier".

 

[Radical Larry]

If you subscribe to the theory that Lucina is inherently inferior to Marth because of no tippers, then I can see putting her in bottom tier on the grounds that there is literally no reason to use her in a competitive context. But even that's a bit of a stretch and requires creative interpretation of the definition of "bottom tier".

That's the thing that bothers me, actually. Lucina is still a fine character in and of herself and yet it is only due to Marth that she cannot be near him? She has relatively the same match-ups as Marth, seemingly, but it all comes down to picking whichever that makes Lucina a bottom tier?

Look at Pit and Dark Pit; in no way should anyone pick Dark Pit because his arrows are slower and can't curve out as much, but he and Pit are in the same placements. So what makes it to where Lucina can't be remotely close to Marth? Why is it that personal preference practically makes characters better or worse?

The same could be said, although to a lesser degree, about Link vs Toon Link. Or Fox or Falco.

 

[Kofu]

I was talking about normal Blade Beam... I don't think Ike was getting anything remotely like Limit Blade Beam.

Yeah, it'd be crazy if a character had a multi-hit transcendent projectile that either killed or could set up for kills all the the time.

Oh wait.

 

[C0rvus]

It also depends on the criteria of your list. In one that favors results more than a little, then Roy is certainly low or bottom tier. Maybe he has yet to prove himself and he's actually quite good, but again, SOMEONE has to be low tier, and I would prefer Roy to be there over a myriad of other characters who have proven themselves in one way or another.

In my own list, I'm tempted to put Marth and Lucina next to each other, since she has alleged use in certain MUs but is overall the same character, but slightly worse. But who on earth should care about MY tier list?

 

[Radical Larry]

It also depends on the criteria of your list. In one that favors results more than a little, then Roy is certainly low or bottom tier. Maybe he has yet to prove himself and he's actually quite good, but again, SOMEONE has to be low tier, and I would prefer Roy to be there over a myriad of other characters who have proven themselves in one way or another.

In my own list, I'm tempted to put Marth and Lucina next to each other, since she has alleged use in certain MUs but is overall the same character, but slightly worse. But who on earth should care about MY tier list?

I'd look at your tier list, actually. Sounds rather intriguing.

And continuing about Marth and Lucina; let's not forget that Marth's hitboxes outside of tipper will mostly hit the opponent unless you ensure a setup into tipper, so Marth needs that extra range while Lucina doesn't, since all of her hitboxes are the same all around, thus sometimes making her more powerful than Marth on certain moves overall.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol silly smashboards scientists.

Roy...low tier...

*giggles*

Someone has to be, and he certainly has the results of a low tier. Marth got buffed, he's starting to get results. Roy got buffed and... crickets in the results category.

Lucina depends on how you look at her. If you look at her as "slightly weaker Marth", then she should be right behind Marth whereever he ends up. If you look at her as "Why bother to play her because Marth exists" then she's bottom tier, but then frankly you're need to redesign the whole tier list with that logic otherwise that logic is silly.

 

[Mo433]

I see Mewtwo and Greninja around the same level. I feel they both have really good strengths compared to most of he cast, but they both aren't quite strong enough to threaten top tiers effectively.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Someone has to be, and he certainly has the results of a low tier. Marth got buffed, he's starting to get results. Roy got buffed and... crickets in the results category.

Lucina depends on how you look at her. If you look at her as "slightly weaker Marth", then she should be right behind Marth whereever he ends up. If you look at her as "Why bother to play her because Marth exists" then she's bottom tier, but then frankly you're need to redesign the whole tier list with that logic otherwise that logic is silly.

Like I said, "creative interpretation of the definition of bottom tier."

 

[RonNewcomb]

It's terrible news for you, but it's just going to be a set of predictions for the 1.1.5 update (and I'm going to call it; there will be another patch update later on), in terms of tiers without trying any bias.

It's terrible news for all of us.

 

[BunbUn129]

Someone has to be, and he certainly has the results of a low tier. Marth got buffed, he's starting to get results. Roy got buffed and... crickets in the results category.

Lucina depends on how you look at her. If you look at her as "slightly weaker Marth", then she should be right behind Marth whereever he ends up. If you look at her as "Why bother to play her because Marth exists" then she's bottom tier, but then frankly you're need to redesign the whole tier list with that logic otherwise that logic is silly.

It's funny that some people were arguing Roy was better than Marth, although Marth had better rep and results even before the buffs in 1.1.4. Before that update, Roy had longer disjoints, but now Marth has that, undermining one of Roy's previous advantages over him. With Marth (and Lucina) receiving more substantial buffs, and with the buff party that characters like, Samus, Zard, Zelda, and Ganon just had, Roy's competitive standing is arguably the worst its ever been.

Every part of Roy's play style is invalidated by other swordies: neutral (), combos ( (lol nerfed)), range (all excluding MK), and KOing (). Whether you want to play a sword character for range and spacing, combos, or whatever it is, there's always going to be one who does it better than Roy, or at least just as well but with more favorable attributes in other areas.

And let's not forget Roy has the worst disadvantage state out of the swordies (basically rip once you lose neutral).

I've said this before somewhere: Roy's problems lie in a highly flawed character design. He's clearly intended to be a mix between heavy pressure and combos. However, in practice, he can't safely pressure outside of nair and dtilt, and he has difficulty racking damage past low percents because DI, while his few KO set-ups (if he has any) are ruined by DI.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just so everyone knows I'm still a amphibious assassin through and through. I'd be the last one on earth to underrate Greninja lol. Mewtwo is more of a co-main than a secondary per se.

I love them both just as much, I haven't let the hype get to my head or anything. I'm just as excited for Mewtwo's future as Greninja's, as they're both really bright.

I've always wanted to main Mewtwo (hence my name) but he just didn't have what it takes to be really good. So I went with greninja, and then I realized how much I liked him too. But now both of my favorite characters are really good, so I'm psyched for both of them.

Also there are surprisingly a lot of Greninja mains in this thread. I just thought I'd make my input more meaningful and talk more about Mewtwo since the only other Mewtwo main here is Sonicninja.

Sorry if this is weirdly personal, I'm just kinda clarifying that I'm not crazy biased to Mewtwo as I'm with like... any other character I main.

 

[Big-Cat]

If you subscribe to the theory that Lucina is inherently inferior to Marth because of no tippers, then I can see putting her in bottom tier on the grounds that there is literally no reason to use her in a competitive context. But even that's a bit of a stretch and requires creative interpretation of the definition of "bottom tier".

Except that there would be certain matchups where getting the tipper, while ideal, is not particularly easy to do. At least Lucina doesn't care what range she hits the opponent.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, let's all agree not to reply to Radicial Larry's tier list when he brings it out. It's just gonna derail this thread.

 

[C0rvus]

So, let's all agree not to reply to Radicial Larry's tier list when he brings it out. It's just gonna derail this thread.

No better than this kind of post if we're being honest.

I know he says some silly stuff, but no need to openly antagonize him.

 

[Amadeus9]

So, let's all agree not to reply to Radicial Larry's tier list when he brings it out. It's just gonna derail this thread.

You're causing derailment by mentioning it in the first place.

Also take it from me, flaming isnt very well appreciated here, you will most likely get a warning from Shaya for it.

Also @ whoever but falco in bottom 5, if you did that just to justify palutena being in bottom 5 I both applaud and scoff at you.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm going to sound REALLY crazy here, but maybe we should starting treat the Three Musketeers (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) as something of different "isms" of the same character. Basically, think MKX or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

 

[C0rvus]

You're causing derailment by mentioning it in the first place.

Also take it from me, flaming isnt very well appreciated here, you will most likely get a warning from Shaya for it.

Also @ whoever but falco in bottom 5, if you did that just to justify palutena being in bottom 5 I both applaud and scoff at you.

I try to keep things at least somewhat plausible lol

I mean, all this talk of them being so similar was really what did them in. I also legit struggle to think of worse characters.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

To me, it seems like "waiting for Mega Man to shoot the 3rd pellet" means that whatever Mega Man you're fighting isn't varying their pellet patterns enough between stationary, moving, and jumping pellets, as well as varying firing rates (you don't HAVE to fire all 3). Same thing goes with just perfect shielding or avoiding Metal Blades, because that was pretty much a Day 1 criticism of Mega Man that turned out not to be true. Metal Blade is a space control tool and just because it's easy to shield or avoid when you know it's coming doesn't mean it's bad. Rather, that would mean it's being used badly.

Aerial mobility is also a huge factor, because while Captain Falcon has the speed advantage on the ground, Mega Man's aerial mobility is superior to Falcon's. While they share a similar top speed, Mega Man's acceleration in the air is best in the game vs. Falcon's middle of the road acceleration, which should give him an advantage whenever they take to the skies.

The point wasn't necessarily that you always wait for 3 lemons, more so that you wait for openings. Lemons eventually stop, whether that be after one, two, or three shots, there will be an opening that you can capitalize on. Just as you can mix up your lemon timing, I could mix up my dash dance timing, or just stop it all together and either rush you down or run away, or bait by pretending to run away. Air acceleration doesn't really matter when you're getting hit, MMan's weight and fall speed make sure of that.

I think a lot of the times what happens on this thread when we talk about match ups is that we focus on our own characters and forget about our opponents options as well.

Also I don't believe I said Metal Blade was bad, rather that I don't often find it threatening. I only really find it threatening when it's being used as part of a combo.

Doesn't Cloud now have a killing problem outside of his Limit?

To put it bluntly, HELL NO. He got a slap on the wrist. He's pretty much the same when it comes to singles. LCS is still pretty stupid, all his aerials are pretty solid at killing, smash attacks are still pretty strong if you need to use them.

Thank you internet for deciding to stop working right as I'm ready to send this! So this is probably going to be several pages late.

Now that my internet's back and I'm a little more caught up:

Maybe she hasn't lost her 50/50. It's just different.

This has existed since before the patch (obviously, uthrow wasn't changed). I didn't get a chance to say it before, but there were a lot of people saying Sheik sucked because she "lost her only kill confirm out of dthrow". Like, no. Even before the patch she had other stuff, including 50/50s from fthrow and this uthrow one.

Better. Underrated. Does a lot better in two previously horrible MUs. Competes well with the entire cast.

Still largely overrated by the masses. Pikachu remains horrible for him. Though it's improved, I'm not convinced the Sheik MU is any better than the winnable end of -2. Linear and not a fan of the kill confirm meta as he lacks KCs himself.

Hovers around 20th. Maybe back in top 20, barely. Probably the worst or second worst high tier depending on your opinion of Mewtwo. He is high though, not mid.

He's got 2 kill throws, bthrow and fthrow, as well as a stock cap throw in uthrow, bair kills really well and is safe on shield, and he has dthrow > uair > knee or uair > knee that true combo at certain percents. He's pretty good at killing to be honest. No comment on Sheik MU right now, haven't had a chance to play it but I don't doubt that it got better. Pikachu is probably his worst MU now and while it's certainly annoying, it's manageable. And even then, Mario and Dr. Mario aren't exactly hard to pick up, you could always have a pocket Mario if you really needed it for Pikachu. He and Greninja are definitely top 20 in my eyes.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's funny that some people were arguing Roy was better than Marth, although Marth had better rep and results even before the buffs in 1.1.4. Before that update, Roy had longer disjoints, but now Marth has that, undermining one of Roy's previous advantages over him. With Marth (and Lucina) receiving more substantial buffs, and with the buff party that characters like, Samus, Zard, Zelda, and Ganon just had, Roy's competitive standing is arguably the worst its ever been.

Every part of Roy's play style is invalidated by other swordies: neutral (), combos ( (lol nerfed)), range (all excluding MK), and KOing (). Whether you want to play a sword character for range and spacing, combos, or whatever it is, there's always going to be one who does it better than Roy, or at least just as well but with more favorable attributes in other areas.

And let's not forget Roy has the worst disadvantage state out of the swordies (basically rip once you lose neutral).

I've said this before somewhere: Roy's problems lie in a highly flawed character design. He's clearly intended to be a mix between heavy pressure and combos. However, in practice, he can't safely pressure outside of nair and dtilt, and he has difficulty racking damage past low percents because DI, while his few KO set-ups (if he has any) are ruined by DI.

I'm thinking Roy's intended niche may be raw damage. IIRC his sweetspots (hilts?) do tons of damage, it's just that they're so close range it almost defeats the purpose of being a swordsman. (Maybe this ties in to his habit of using a reverse grip?)

Also since Smash differentiates between doing damage and killing, "raw damage" as a character design kind of falls flat without supporting abilities.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm going to sound REALLY crazy here, but maybe we should starting treat the Three Musketeers (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) as something of different "isms" of the same character. Basically, think MKX or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

This man right here.

What you gotta PhD or somethin?

****ing genius this man.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Just so everyone knows I'm still a amphibious assassin through and through lol. I'd be the last one on earth to underrate Greninja lol. Mewtwo is more of a co-main than a secondary per se lol.

I love them both just as much, I haven't let the hype get to my head or anything. I'm just as excited for Mewtwo's future as Greninja's, as they're both really bright.

I've always wanted to main Mewtwo (hence my name) but he just didn't have what it takes to be really good. So I went with greninja, and then I realized how much I liked him too. But now both of my favorite characters are really good, so I'm psyched for both of them.

Also there are surprisingly a lot of Greninja mains in this thread. I just thought I'd make my input more meaningful and talk more about Mewtwo since the only other Mewtwo main here is Sonicninja.

Sorry if this is weirdly personal, I'm just kinda clarifying that I'm not crazy biased to Mewtwo as I'm with like... any other character I main.

It's OK. Between Mewtwo buffs last patch, iStudying taking names, and Gren & Mewtwo buffs this patch, I imagine you're having the best month ever.

On topic: do you think Mewtwo beats Cloud? Mewtwo's edgeguarding is top notch, and his neutral ain't shabby. M2K fell to Mew^2 hard so the theory isn't totally wack.

Also: who are Greninja's bad MUs? I'm thinking this will become relevant to my interests in the near future. If his f-air is safe on block, he looks like he's becoming the new Sheik.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm going to sound REALLY crazy here, but maybe we should starting treat the Three Musketeers (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) as something of different "isms" of the same character. Basically, think MKX or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

Interesting. That's pretty accurate considering despite close similarities, each character's gameplay is distinct from one another's.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm thinking Roy's intended niche may be raw damage. IIRC his sweetspots (hilts?) do tons of damage, it's just that they're so close range it almost defeats the purpose of being a swordsman. (Maybe this ties in to his habit of using a reverse grip?)

Also since Smash differentiates between doing damage and killing, "raw damage" as a character design kind of falls flat without supporting abilities.

But then Ike and Cloud outdamage him and don't need specific hitboxes. If that was the intended niche, then developer fail.

And then when you throw combo potential into the picture, outdamage him even more, and who has half the % per hit deals more off one confirm.

 

[FullMoon]

Also: who are Greninja's bad MUs? I'm thinking this will become relevant to my interests in the near future. If his f-air is safe on block, he looks like he's becoming the new Sheik.

Greninja's F-Air is frame 16 come on. He's not anywhere close to being a new Sheik.

Anyway his main losing MUs are Sonic, Sheik (just obviously less than before) and probably Fox and Cloud as well. Other than that he probably goes even or beats the rest. Diddy might be a suspect bad MU but I think Greninja has the tools to deal with him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik's matchup spread actually looks pretty bad as of now.

If we look at who went close to even with her before, Rosa, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Diddy were the main contenders.
Everyone in that list besides ZSS (cos of her own nerfs lol) should be beating her now (tbh I'm not sure about Sonic but the others definitely do), on top of that she probably goes even at best with Bayo and Cloud.

That's not the matchup spread of a top 5 character

That's what I was initially thinking.

A weight nerf of 3 [plus another 1 from a previous patch] is quite a hit because it noticeably affect a key value [survivability] and it's global. She dies between 6% and 10% earlier. To every move in the game. Losing the 50/50 out of a dthrow also is a tremendous change as it affects another key value [the ability close out stocks] and it's also global. A lot of characters used to be disadvantaged against Sheik simply because she could safely out-KO her opponent. There may have been other factors coming into play but a lot of the time the 50/50 is what turned out to be the biggest difference in the end. Both of these nerfs directly affect what may have been her biggest strength ... in every single matchup. I think it's somewhat likely that she'll be able to play around the lack of her 50/50 in the future and that top players like Void will find a way around her perceived problem at getting KOs but she still needs to work harder for it and she'll die to opponents earlier than she used to.

I think she'll still be able to beat Cloud because she hasn't lost any of the tools that allow her to compete with him onstage and she can still get her kills via gimps. I think Rosalina and Diddy are gonna be pretty tough from now on though [if they haven't been already] as is Bayonetta. Kinda hard to say how far she'll drop but it's entirely out of the question for me that she'll stay #1.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'm going to sound REALLY crazy here, but maybe we should starting treat the Three Musketeers (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) as something of different "isms" of the same character. Basically, think MKX or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

Sure. Marth is V-ism, cause it's the only ism worth using.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have been kind of lenient when it comes to Larry, because honestly, Larry isn't a bad guy . I think there is a definitive difference between someone like Larry and t an actual troll. Though he has ideas that are flawed, he's not super pushy about them. He doesn't shove his viewpoints down our throat, and is man enough to admit he's wrong. He's not antagonistic or a jerk. He does at least try to build up some information to back up his claims. It doesn't keep him from being incorrect, but he doesn't post baseless, one-lined claims like other posters do. It seems like he is actually interested in the discussion, and I have noticed that he's been trying to change and get better (and if you ask me, it shows too, compare to the Larry three threads ago).

People, can just be a little too brutal when it comes to Larry. It's honestly quite disturbing how vicious people get over him. I honestly draw a line when people start saying he is a waste of oxygen.

I personally don't like making attacks on people (which is why I flipped out and started apologizing so much after that ESAM debacle) no matter what your point is. I'm not in the business of making people feel awful about themselves.

But if you start bombarding me with personal attacks.....I'll do what I have to do.

 

[Fatmanonice]

lol silly smashboards scientists.

Roy...low tier...

*giggles*

Alright, I'll bite. Why shouldn't Roy be low tier? With the last tier list, he was at the top of low tier despite a lack of results and most people struggling to think of one noteworthy Roy player. I'm pretty sure is better than him at this point and characters like have better placings too. With the way things have been going as of late, he's definitely not better than . I have a hard time seeing Roy escaping low tier anytime soon.