Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

Nerfing the top tiers and buffing the low tiers continually until everyone is mid tier...
I don't actually want that. The homogeny required to achieve real "balance" often comes at the cost of fun and depth.

 

[FullMoon]

Since it's sorta relevant right now, I've made a MU chart for Greninja. I'll place it in a spoiler to spare people who don't care:

Spoiler

If you want me to elaborate on anything just ask, there are some here that I'm not too sure about myself.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't agree with that.

It actually makes gameplay worse when you have horrible balance. Mvc2 loses out a ton due to that and it's a legit con of melee.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Nerfing the top tiers and buffing the low tiers continually until everyone is mid tier...
I don't actually want that. The homogeny required to achieve real "balance" often comes at the cost of fun and depth.

Who said that every character had to be the same to give top tiers bad matchups and make low tiers viable?

 

[C0rvus]

Found the PM player.

No but seriously, I would rather have like 15 viable characters with unique mechanics and divergent tools than 55 samey characters that can all compete.

E Eugene Wang Noone is saying that, but even if all the characters have many similarities, the game will favor certain attributes. Those with them are strictly better. Those without them are worse. That's how it works.

 

[Solfiner]

Found the PM player.

No but seriously, I would rather have like 15 viable characters with unique mechanics and divergeant tools than 55 samey characters that can all compete. You want Melee or Naruto Ninja Storm?

E Eugene Wang Noone is saying that, but even if all the characters hare many similarities, the game will favor certain attributes. Those with them are strictly better. Those without them are worse. That's how it works.

Bad comparison because Ninja Storm is horribly balanced.

 

[C0rvus]

Bad comparison because Ninja Storm is horribly balanced.

Perhaps. I never played it lol so that's my bad. The point stands, though.

Man, this is where my lack of experience with older non-Nintendo games comes out.

 

[Y2Kay]

Since it's sorta relevant right now, I've made a MU chart for Greninja. I'll place it in a spoiler to spare people who don't care:

Spoiler

If you want me to elaborate on anything just ask, there are some here that I'm not too sure about myself.

I actually think we beat roy because his Up special is much easier to gimp. My friend is a Lucina main and I honestly find them just a little more challenging .

For some reason though Marcina mains think we bop them reasonably well. The same thing for Mario and some Ike mains. Honestly think greninja has a notable advantage against robin too. Also, I believe Zelda is a +2

I'd also like to not that 8bitman has greninja as a losing Match up, and Mister Eric also says greninja is a mental block for him as well. Maybe it's because we can shadow sneak out of beep bop?

Oh yeah, could you elaborate on the Villager and Olimar matchup too?

Don't mind my points too much, I agree with it a lot.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS lost more than people are giving her credit for, her new d-throw is actually a lot worse for combos as the opponent gets into high %s. She can't kill you off of a grab, ever, anymore.

Plus her shield safety with nair is slightly worse, because she can't space as far away due to the range nerf and it just does less shield stun.

Uair may not be guaranteed to kill at kill percents anymore but it is almost always a 50/50 even with Max rage. It's untrue to say she can't kill out of grab anyway because lol rage boost kick.

The shield stun nerf to nair is not really that bad really at all. It's still -4 so you can't really punish it without a PS anyway still. The range nerf was like what I think .03 units or something so most of the moves that could beat it before still do and the moves that couldn't still don't. It was never really used as an air to air anyway too often anyway. On the plus side Nair hits Lower to the ground and can actually hit any characters crouch hurt box in the game bar wii fit trainer now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Found the PM player.

No but seriously, I would rather have like 15 viable characters with unique mechanics and divergent tools than 55 samey characters that can all compete.

E Eugene Wang Noone is saying that, but even if all the characters have many similarities, the game will favor certain attributes. Those with them are strictly better. Those without them are worse. That's how it works.

I don't like pm that much, lol.

Bad balance removes options in the form of characters. There isn't an issue with homogeneously balancing the game in smash 4.

Bowser and Charizard are close to each other and similar but they clearly play differently and are unique.

The issue with PM was that they tried to balance around fox being top tier again and it backfired because of power creep and that issue you mentioned.

Characters are clearly different while being more balanced.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't see where depth is taken away by balancing the cast

Sheik needed options taken away. She was much too powerful for her own good, and keeping her as a character with good mobility, damage racking, and neutral while making it harder for her to get kills seems in line with her design philosophy.

 

[thehard]

This game really isn't in jeopardy of becoming homogenized anytime soon. I mean the nerfs to Sheik are the opposite of that, they're focused on making her more unique and giving her a more pronounced weakness.

 

[ARISTOS]

Found the PM player.

No but seriously, I would rather have like 15 viable characters with unique mechanics and divergent tools than 55 samey characters that can all compete.

This is a false dichotomy

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is this what people are really concluding about ZSS? I'd like to see were people have stated that. It goes against what I have been experiencing in testing/etc. I spent last night playing against my doubles team mate (ZSS main) and ZSS can basically perform the same things she did before for the most part, she just doesn't kill at the same percents. She still has her incredibly strong options, which still make her a top character imo.

Full VOD of my play session yesterday:
https://www.twitch.tv/locuan/v/55073367

Mic Audio was messed up, considering not using it next time. Also, I'm gonna john and say I was warming up those first few matches. D:

All the patch seemed to do was make her kill like 10% to 15% later making Nair to down b work at 55 instead of 40 and I think in some instances the ladder is easier to do now. I agree she still has her amazing tools. I don't think she is out of top 5 it's just that she doesn't kill stupid early.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Since it's sorta relevant right now, I've made a MU chart for Greninja. I'll place it in a spoiler to spare people who don't care:

Spoiler

If you want me to elaborate on anything just ask, there are some here that I'm not too sure about myself.

Cloud can't recover, Fox is combo food, Sheik can't kill, Sonic is sword food. What is Greninja weak to? Grass Pikmin?

 

[Locke 06]

Since it's sorta relevant right now, I've made a MU chart for Greninja. I'll place it in a spoiler to spare people who don't care:

Spoiler

If you want me to elaborate on anything just ask, there are some here that I'm not too sure about myself.

Peach, villager, dedede, Bowser Jr., Marcina, Pits, and DK... Yeah, those are the ones I question most probably in that order.

Also what makes doc and Mario different enough that Doc is -1 vs frog and Mario isn't.

Spoiler: thoughts

Peach = shield pressure. Enough said.
Bad grab vs villager isn't a good thing to have. General good character, so curious.

Poor gordo reflect options vs dedede, along with the hardest to kill off the top, which greninja usually does. I don't see it that bad in my head.

Bowser Jr. Controls the ground very well with mecha koopas, given he can get one out. I imagine greninja gets juggled hard with Jr.'s great up air, and fall speed and lightish weight lends itself to Jr.'s confirms. - rather obscure character though, so not surprised if there wasn't much thought put behind it.

Marcina and pits play the "don't jump" game well vs characters who like to fall with aerials. Along with a strong ledge game, which Greninja lacks options to get off the ledge with (FAir, NAir are not great for this).

 

[Jalil]

Since it's sorta relevant right now, I've made a MU chart for Greninja. I'll place it in a spoiler to spare people who don't care:

Spoiler

If you want me to elaborate on anything just ask, there are some here that I'm not too sure about myself.

Can you tell me why you think greninja beats shulk? A lil curious

 

[RonNewcomb]

Last Sol result I saw was him getting 9th at Tampa Never Sleeps 6.

Also... did he give good pre-patch Sheik players who're familiar with the matchup a run for their money?

He didn't do too shabby at G3.

Lemme flip the table on you: where's the fat penguin's results? He was the notable omission from your bottom 5.

 

[Mister M]

Opening people up with Ryu isnt hard.

Dash in > roll behind > mash light d-tilt is actually stupid easy and scary as hell.

But imma stop talking about Ryu now because I need you guys to think hes not top ten so he can not be nerfed then dominate the meta after I get into this game for real during the summer.

I actually crave lines like this.

Ryu's roll is short as hell, he'd have to run up pretry close to abuse an option like this. What makes it viable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sheik had options removed and no compensation, this is the truth.

The reason why is because she was getting around her intended weakness, lack of KO power.

This is removing options but in a situation where it was needed and deserved.

 

[TurboLink]

Seriously though, just make everyone high tier. Having a top tier isn't bad as long as they have weaknesses that can actually be exploited. Top tier does not automatically equate to flawless.

 

[bc1910]

FullMoon Why is Olimar borderline? We should win that MU rather convincingly. Lucario has more right to a borderline +1 than Olimar does.

See, this is what bothers me. That's a better MU spread than pre-patch Cloud. Someone way earlier in this thread said Cloud had 4 bad MUs, and then the nerf bat tapped him on the shoulder. Greninja was buffed directly, and had his gatekeeper bopped. I'm not prone to tier listing, but I'm thinking frogs fly higher than clouds right now.

And whoever thinks Rosa was top tier because she spotdodged the nerf bat, both of these characters give her a hard time.

Bear in mind that one of Cloud's bad MUs was Sheik, and that's probably even now. Not sure who the others were supposed to be, I was under the impression that prepatch Cloud lost to Sheik and only Sheik. Current Cloud has no losing MUs.

Greninja doesn't lose many MUs, but he doesn't convincingly beat many high or top tiers either. With left-to-right being hardest to easiest, his MU spread against the top 14 is as follows IMO:


-1:
0:
+1:

Do note that Sheik and Sonic are significantly harder than Fox and Cloud, but they all probably fall into the -1 bracket. I'm not totally sure of Greninja having a Bayo advantage, though I genuinely think he wins on paper.

Compare this to Cloud, who's running around with +1s and +2s against most of the cast, including the top/high tiers. Greninja has a good MU spread but he doesn't outright beat enough characters to get you through tourney sets in the same way Cloud can. I think Greninja has the spread of a top 15 character, but Cloud has the spread of a... top 1 character.

FWIW I can see Greninja with an advantage over Ness and Ryu.

 

[PK Gaming]

Nerfing the top tiers and buffing the low tiers continually until everyone is mid tier...
I don't actually want that. The homogeny required to achieve real "balance" often comes at the cost of fun and depth.

I don't know, there was nothing fun about MK/ZSS's ladder combos, and Sheik's ability to gatekeep characters did the opposite of adding depth.

If anything, the general increased viability of the entire cast should make the game more fun/exciting.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nerfing sheik makes everyone have at least one bad mu IMO.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bottom five for me is probably this



I think more defensive mindsets help Dedede stay in the upper part of the bottom 10 and I think DHD can skid by in lower mid through the same logic.

As silly as I initially thought it was, I find it hard to contest the idea of Roy being at or near bottom 5 status. What good is his range when you need to get in to maximize it, and what good is a maximized effect attached to a moveset that was designed for a character to space?

I don't see how Mac isn't bottom 5 either. Good frame data etc. early kills etc. but he's gimpable and probably has an abysmally bad MU chart against the high tier. He gets outranged, camped out, and a lack of aerial coverage means he's operating with an arm tied behind his back in a game where aerial coverage is very important.

please convince me otherwise, I just don't see where he's a secretly decent character, his comeback mechanic is only above Rest in how unreliable it is

Dorf is not worse than D3 or Roy, certainly not now. He still is bottom 15-20, but his buffs were laser-focused towards areas where he was deficient and they matter a lot for the purposes of his neutral game. Just playing defensively against him is not enough. At worst he might be top of bottom 10 depending on how good the characters around him are, but he's not bottom 5 after the buffs he got.

 

[busken]

The ******** needs to stop imo, if you are gonna complain do it in secret because a character that has only been released i a tad over a month getting nerfed really hurts development. I feel like people are too quick to complain, and don't optimize.

 

[C0rvus]

I don't know, there was nothing fun about MK/ZSS's ladder combos, and Sheik's ability to gatekeep characters did the opposite of adding depth.

If anything, the general increased viability of the entire cast should make the game more fun/exciting.

Oh I absolutely agree. I was only expressing worry for the future. Generally speaking, characters with fewer options are less fun. Wouldn't want the whole of top/high tier getting the Sheik treatment.

 

[PK Gaming]

Oh I absolutely agree. I was only expressing worry for the future. Generally speaking, characters with fewer options are less fun. Wouldn't want the whole of top/high tier getting the Sheik treatment.

Ahh, I get you. Yeah, I don't think I would like to see that many more nerfs in the future either. The last top tier characters that really need addressing are Cloud and Bayo.

Smash is actually in a pretty great spot right now. For the time ever, I can safely say that wouldn't mind if the meta stayed this way.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bear in mind that one of Cloud's bad MUs was Sheik, and that's probably even now. Not sure who the others were supposed to be, I was under the impression that prepatch Cloud lost to Sheik and only Sheik. Current Cloud has no losing MUs.

The other bad MU was definitely Ms. Simon Belmont. ()

Another, from IIRC a respectable poster, was Shulk, of all people.

I cannot remember who the 4th was. One of Pikachu, Diddy, or Corrin. I previously thought it was Ike due to his increased fair range and the Eruption edgeguarding, but am less sure now.

Ah well, time will tell.

I'm still more worried about the frog's seeming lack of exploitative issues.

 

[BananaBake]

He didn't do too shabby at G3.

Lemme flip the table on you: where's the fat penguin's results? He was the notable omission from your bottom 5.

Just watched him at SC55, doubles w/Ryo. They lost, but still kinda good. They haven't done singles yet and it's on MVG

 

[Deleted member]

He didn't do too shabby at G3.

Lemme flip the table on you: where's the fat penguin's results? He was the notable omission from your bottom 5.

For as bad I think Dedede is, he's at least gotten decent high level results. Big D getting 17th at Paragon and 49th at G3 (he used Falcon a few times though), El_Bardo getting 25th at BEAST 6 and being well regarded in Spain, and a Dedede player by the name of Technique got 33rd (right outside of top 32) at Dismantle 2.

Speaking of, there's a tournament that might be of interest to most of you guys. It's a regional here in good ol' Orlando that's happening tomorrow. People like MVD, Ryo, Sol, Mew2King, Tremendo Dude and Poltergust are in attendance.

The FBC Presents: Come to Papa

Dunno where it's being streamed, it'll probably be put up somewhere tomorrow though. Interested on seeing how it turns out.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think people realise it's pretty rare for the best character in the game to actually have losing matchups.

Even matchups yea, but losing matchups aren't common.

Sheik had no losing matchups and was nerfed, now Cloud is just picking up the mantle. If we nerf Bayo and Rosa after that, we'll probably end up with Fox at the top with no losing matchups lol.

The game was actually more balanced pre-patch tbh. Sheik wasn't an overwhelming top tier and she was difficult to play. Cloud is very easy and we're going to see him very quickly start dominating mid level play and being over represented in top level play just like Brawl MK.

Only thing that would prevent that outcome is if Bayo is even better and more dominant than Cloud lmao. And obviously more patches, but I can't really support the direction the devs are taking in, it's just becoming less fun as they take options away from characters.

 

[Nobie]

Speaking of Dedede, a while back I was wondering about Dedede vs. Corrin being potentially a decent matchup for the penguin. With the recent nerfs to Corrin I think this matchup might even get pushed into even territory.

Lower run, walk, and air speed means it's harder to outspace and juggle Dedede. Dedede's still slow as heck, but it means Dedede can get away in more situations. Conversely, worse air speed means being more easily juggled by Dedede, and it's not that crazy to get a kill at like 90%.

Counter is no longer as scary, so Dedede can afford to throw things out and not worry about getting killed at 50%. Also, this was the case in the last patch too, but Dedede has enough range on certain attacks that he can trigger Counter without getting hit by it. Key move in this case is jab, but even an F-Smash at max range can avoid Counter (though if Corrin just gets closer before doing it that doesn't really matter then).

Tipper f-smash from Corrin is still scary though.

EDIT: "Taking away options" doesn't make a game inherently better or worse. That's the sort of argument used when people want to say Melee is better, because "wavedashing is another option!"

If Jigglypuff had the option to combo into Rest from across the stage, the dev team would most certainly patch that out. I know it's not THAT extreme for Sheik, but again I see it not so much as removing her options as it is forcing her to actually have to take risks.

 

[Das Koopa]

He didn't do too shabby at G3. Lemme flip the table on you: where's the fat penguin's results? He was the notable omission from your bottom 5.

129th while Big D got 49th. 129th really isn't even a good finish at all and I'd bet out of the 64 other people who placed that you'd find a few other low tiers that similarly are argued over as to whether or not they're bottom 5/10.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't think people realise it's pretty rare for the best character in the game to actually have losing matchups.

Even matchups yea, but losing matchups aren't common.

Sheik had no losing matchups and was nerfed, now Cloud is just picking up the mantle. If we nerf Bayo and Rosa after that, we'll probably end up with Fox at the top with no losing matchups lol.

The game was actually more balanced pre-patch tbh. Sheik wasn't an overwhelming top tier and she was difficult to play. Cloud is very easy and we're going to see him very quickly start dominating mid level play and being over represented in top level play just like Brawl MK.

Only thing that would prevent that outcome is if Bayo is even better and more dominant than Cloud lmao. And obviously more patches, but I can't really support the direction the devs are taking in, it's just becoming less fun as they take options away from characters.

Cloud is distinctly worse as a character than Sheik was. I hate him as much as the next guy, but I can live with an easy to play top tier provided it's possible to win by getting good. No way it was more balanced pre-patch, as the best characters are less dominant than Sheik was, and many of the worst characters in the game have gotten meaningful buffs.

 

[Y2Kay]

FullMoon Why is Olimar borderline? We should win that MU rather convincingly. Lucario has more right to a borderline +1 than Olimar does.



Bear in mind that one of Cloud's bad MUs was Sheik, and that's probably even now. Not sure who the others were supposed to be, I was under the impression that prepatch Cloud lost to Sheik and only Sheik. Current Cloud has no losing MUs.

Greninja doesn't lose many MUs, but he doesn't convincingly beat many high or top tiers either. With left-to-right being hardest to easiest, his MU spread against the top 14 is as follows IMO:


-1:
0:
+1:

Do note that Sheik and Sonic are significantly harder than Fox and Cloud, but they all probably fall into the -1 bracket. I'm not totally sure of Greninja having a Bayo advantage, though I genuinely think he wins on paper.

Compare this to Cloud, who's running around with +1s and +2s against most of the cast, including the top/high tiers. Greninja has a good MU spread but he doesn't outright beat enough characters to get you through tourney sets in the same way Cloud can. I think Greninja has the spread of a top 15 character, but Cloud has the spread of a... top 1 character.

FWIW I can see Greninja with an advantage over Ness and Ryu.

I think he considers Olimar borderline because Dabuz bopped him in an online tournament lol

 

[bc1910]

Cloud is nowhere near as bad as prepatch Sheik. Let's not do this.

Cloud has an actual exploitable flaw in his recovery, and you can feasibly win neutral against him a lot more than you could against Sheik.

He's more braindead than Sheik was/is but he's still healthier for the game.

I think he considers Olimar borderline because Dabuz bopped him in an online tournament lol

This is what I was wondering, but I couldn't find a way to word it properly.

I wanted to ask if he had ever played Dabuz, without making it sound like I was letting that change the MU ratio (since players don't change MU ratios; ratios measure how raw characters' tools interact). Rather, I wanted to suggest that it might influence his opinion of the ratio.

Although I don't think FullMoon is the type to let something like that sway him so I'd be interested in his opinion.

 

[thehard]

The options every character has gained because of Sheik's nerf and their own buffs heavily outweighs Sheik's loss of options.

Maybe this patch will actually force other options like perfect pivoting into Sheik's main gameplan rather than it just being a useful secondary tool. VoiD is already ahead of the game if so.

 

[Y2Kay]

This is what I was wondering, but I couldn't find a way to word it properly.

I wanted to ask if he had ever played Dabuz, without making it sound like I was letting that change the MU ratio (since players don't change MU ratios; ratios measure how raw characters' tools interact). Rather, I wanted to suggest that it might influence his opinion of the ratio.

Although I don't think FullMoon is the type to let something like that sway him so I'd be interested in his opinion.

yeah I was joking, but he did lose to his olimar. I don't know if he wants me posting a link to the match without him around tho

 

[sedrf]

all this doom and gloom over sheik.