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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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**Gilgamesh**

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It's funny how people say mewtwo can never be high tier because he's a "glass cannon", because there are a lot of lightweights in top tier right now
:4cloud2: does a lot of damage onstage, very vulnerable off stage, kind of a glass cannon if you think about it; contender for #1 spot.
Minor nitpick but cloud ways much heavier then everyone listed here (he weight is 100 and I believe his surviability increases with limit with better fast fall and air-speed) and only a select few amount of characters have proven to actually challenge him off-stage. Shaya sums it up perfectly in one of his posts.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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:4sheik: is the most nerfed character by far in smash 4 (that truly affected the character). if we just look at what was nerfed since launch.
1.0.4
  • Forward aerial damage reduced (sweetspot: 6.8% → 5.5%, sourspot: 6% → 4.8%).
  • Up aerial hits one less time, resulting in 1% less total damage (8% → 7%).
  • Up aerial's last hit has reduced knockback scaling: 155 → 138
  • Bouncing Fish has reduced knockback: 30 base/100 scaling → 26/90
  • Needle Storm has slightly more ending lag.
1.0.6
  • Back aerial's damage and knockback significantly decreased: 11/10% → 8/7%
  • Down tilt damage: 7.5% → 5%
1.1.0
  • Forward aerial deals less damage (5.5%/4.8% → 5.0%/4.3%), but with knockback compensated on the sweetspot (125 → 132).
  • Forward aerial sourspot hitbox now takes priority over the sweetspot, effectively making the sweetspot smaller
1.1.4
Vanish's disappearing hitbox has slightly less knockback scaling (104 → 102) and is smaller (14u → 13u).

1.1.5

  • Weight decreased: 85 → 81.
  • Forward throw has more knockback growth: 65 → 79.
  • Sheik's forward throw now sends opponents tumbling at 0%, reducing its combo ability.
  • Forward throw's angle has been altered: 70° → 72°.
  • Down throw's angle has been altered: 80° → 77°.
  • Down throw has more knockback growth: 75 → 90.
  • Forward aerial has less range: def hitboxZ pos 3.5 → 2.5, hitboxZ pos 3.5 → 2.5.
  • Needle Storm has reduced range.
  • Down smash's knockback growth increased: 155 → 165.

    A lot of these nerfs were unnecessary for her and when you just compound it to 1.1.5 kinda killed what made Sheik a viable tourney pick in Smash 4 at top level play. The only patches that I truly agree with was 1.0.4 and parts of 1.1.5. Sheik should have gotten every Nerf in 1.0.4, as she was would be extremely overturned (lol at people saying sheik design was lack suppose to be trouble killing when clearly the character had much much more KO power at the start with uair, bair, bouncing fish, and damage per hit) heading over to the WII U version. What was overturned on sheik was not her kill-setups or grab 50/50's as you have characters that can clearly kill (:4cloud2::4bayonetta2::4myfriends::4zss::4ryu::4robinf::4ness: even :4diddy::4fox:etc...) but it was the fact that her neutral was extremely potent on the entire cast, especially for non top-tier characters. Before this patch a lot of characters were having -2's or -3's against her :4falcon::4greninja::4megaman::4lucas::4ness::4olimar::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4yoshi::4wario2::4wiremac::4falco::4metaknight::4mewtwo: and certainly much more when taken account at top level. Nerfing sheik fair (although they nerfed the damage twice already lol) and needles were exactly what she needed and the dev team got it right this patch and I would have been completely fine with it as these were the main things people complained about and vanish. What was overbearing was the fact she had the an oppressive neutral; shutting down many characters in neutral alone while also having above-average killing options then most of the cast only being over topped by other top tiers. The dev team then decided to nuke her with another nerf to uair again (wtf), decrease her weight (okay O_O) and then mess up her throw game ( -__-), while slightly buffing her worst smash attack in killing power :(. We are now left with a worse neutral (that's fine, she was over-tuned in neutral so that Nerf was justified), less surviability (again I'm fine with this), but completely removing her grab kill-set ups were completely unjustified since she they made her have no reliable ways of netting the stock while also being easier to kill as well. I'm sorry but this is a total recipe for disaster and I wouldn't at all surprised if :4sheik:died out at top level play, wouldn't be surprised either if Zero, Void, Mr.R drops games and or lose playing her either, or you know Void having to put in significantly more effort and work to get the kill as opposed to a :4cloud2::4diddy::4myfriends::rosalina:etc...and still lose anyway. Getting killed at around 80 (due to rage) while not being able to kill back is not fun at all and just puts unnecessary stress on the player while we have characters like :4ryu::4cloud2::4bayonetta2::4zss::4fox::4mario:and other powerhouses running around is just plain out bad no matter how you put it. Gutting characters like :4sheik::4luigi::4metaknight: and initially

:4greninja:- (this character is just now legit looking good in my eyes now, Guess the dev team realized that just placing nerfs on a character for the sake of nering is a bad idea... oh wait then we have Sheik situation so IDK) without properly compensating them is not good IMO as it gives little incentive to lab further when there are clearly better characters with better options if your view point is like me, playing characters that I like not just because of the character but also because they're good. Also if you notice nearly all top players play only good characters, ZeRo only plays the best characters while Nairo initially played the Pits, Zelda, Robin before playing Zero Suit. Anti only plays top tiers, Dabuz dropped Olimar entirely as secondary stating that "Olimar is useless in this Meta". Abadango switched from Wario, and Pac-man to playing Meta knight and having a secondary Rosa. Even other top players only dabble with other top tiers (9B switching from Ryu -> Bayo) and Komorikiri switching from (Sonic -> Cloud), so having more good characters is a good thing.

Just to be clear I am not calling this patch a bad patch, I absolutely love this patch and I'm main Sheik :eek:. I love the idea of characters like :4mewtwo::4greninja::4charizard::4samus::4ganondorf::4palutena: :4zelda: becoming more better through patching, however I do not agree with just blatant nerfing of characters without compensation if you are going to nerf them knowing they'll become much worse in doing so. Also it's hard trying to explain that previous sentence since there is a ton of depth in nerfing characters. Nerfing characters in the right areas shouldn't require compensation, but nerfing characters in the wrong areas or even taking away the option that made them competitive should be avoided unless compensation is given, or in the case of a degenerative core design (a.k.a MK) compensation should be given.. In sheik case, all she needed was nerfs to fair, needles, vanish (maybe) and no compensation would be needed but they also made her easier to kill while struggling to kill (in a game with rage) at the same time. This is a kill-confirm meta, characters live and die based on how easy it is for them to net stocks. I am not trying to blame the dev's either, but people seems to have this idea that nerfing tourney viable characters regardless of the extent the nerf had on them is a good thing just because your character was buffed, it's not even certain if the buffed characters are able to compete with the other top tiers which most of them i'm sure cannot in fact the only 2 characters that I can see being consistent in tourney is Mew-two and Greninja and even then it took a multiple patches to get them to where they're at while it only takes 1 patch to make a character inconsistent or objectively bad and hence underwhelming. Then there's the argument of nerfing all top tiers and buffing lower tiers which I am not even going to bother with.
Tl;dr -> Nerf over-tuned characters appropriately while giving compensation if needed while avoiding nerfing the good characters just for he sake of nerfing them and finally buff the characters that need tuning. It's much easier to gutt a character then to make a character a consistent tourney threat.
I disagree with her being unavailable in tournaments, Sheik. She will still be viable. The difference is that she is going to be noticeable worse.

Way way worse than what she was.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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#HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu I am not calling her nonviable; just that she's might die out as the cost of playing her is much more taxing then before and they're are easier characters that are as of now more rewarding to play.
 
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Y2Kay

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While I agree that Mewtwo has the potential to be a high tier character, the characters that you have mentioned have more tools to combat their weaknesses. All of the light characters on your list have better landing options than Mewtwo, and most of the light characters on your list have better combo breakers than Mewtwo. Although Mewtwo's weight isn't as bad of a problem as some people make it out to be, it is still a pretty big issue for Mewtwo since he has a somewhat big hurtbox that lacks a combo breaker (his above average fall speed makes it harder for him to get out of combos than truly floaty characters like Jigglypuff and Rosalina). While some people focus too much on Mewtwo's weight, I feel that some Mewtwo players overlook the other issues with Mewtwo that makes his disadvantage state substandard.
I know, I included this in my point. I put in parenthesis tho, kinda easy to miss

:150:
 
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Megamang

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Now that I know development hasn't ended, and that the top tiers aren't quite as dominant, I have decided to pick back up with midtier hero Megaman. Blue's switch and explanation (basically that unlike sonic, mewtwo is always threatening) made me really think about mewtwos strength. Now, I main the two together. I think that mewtwo fills a role where megaman doesn't. If im winning on agro plays, but don't have the tools, mewtwo certainly does. Hell, shadowball alone opens their shield up sooo much. Its hard to powershield, and is always threatening. Stock caps galore, and one of the best SHAD games? Amazing Fair? Count me in.

Definitely feels high tier to me.
 

Browny

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Did you just call his DAir his most oppressive tool in neutral?
Go and watch an M2K cloud match and get back to me. Its almost completely safe, leads into kills and everything else a good move should do.

Charging limit in neutral doesnt count as being oppressive any more than charging shadowball does. It forces the enemy to come to you, but it doesnt lead into combos/stocks when he wins neutral with it... That's not how it works.
 

Locke 06

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Go and watch an M2K cloud match and get back to me. Its almost completely safe, leads into kills and everything else a good move should do.
Criiiinge.

:134:

Cloud is not nearly as safe as everyone seems to think. I know San and I had the same opinion about his aerials. They're very bad offensive options in terms of safety, due to the requirement that they have to be spaced well and, because he's jumping, his opponent has more control over the spacing than he does. To me, Cloud is much more of a ground based character with his amazing foxtrot and walk accel. But I'm no M2K. -shrugs-
 

thehard

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With regards to Sheik mains dropping her: VoiD had said that he was hoping for Sheik to be nerfed because he felt it would give him the opportunity to really take his play to the next level. Great attitude to have.
 

PK Gaming

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With regards to Sheik mains dropping her: VoiD had said that he was hoping for Sheik to be nerfed because he felt it would give him the opportunity to really take his play to the next level. Great attitude to have.
I'm definitely looking forward to VoiD's 1.15 Sheik

That guy has a killer mindset and a serious drive to win.
 

FallofBrawl

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I feel the reason why the dev team hasn't really compensated Sheik like they compensated Diddy is because they've seen what she's capable of fully optimized via VoiD.
 

Solfiner

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With regards to Sheik mains dropping her: VoiD had said that he was hoping for Sheik to be nerfed because he felt it would give him the opportunity to really take his play to the next level. Great attitude to have.
It's funny, that's the same mentality my friend had as well. He was a hardcore Sheik main in Brawl and he always felt like she was too powerful in Smash 4.

Strange people, us low tier heroes. :laugh:
 

Strong-Arm

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On the topic of :006: this patch did wonders for him in so many ways. I honestly believe him to be viable now and I wouldnt put him anywhere below mid. He soaks in rage like a sponge, lives forever, and can kill extremely early. Not to mention his range and really good recovery. The biggest problem with Zard right now are a few things 1.Jab and dtilt are all that he really has to "get out" or is even remotely safe. Both are amazing (jab in particular) and fair is alright tho it is easily shield grabbed and isnt all that fast or safe. But aside from those he lacks a player base. The real question is will anyone actually pick up Zard after this buff? There is so little about Zard that people even forget hes in the game sometimes.

I hope he is picked up by at least 1 notable player or some player of somekind comes out and shows what he can do at his full potential. But until then his meta and possible development will be halted by a total lack of player base. I do feel like he shouldnt be anywhere below mid, he just has too much going for him now to justify it.
 

HoSmash4

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I feel the reason why the dev team hasn't really compensated Sheik like they compensated Diddy is because they've seen what she's capable of fully optimized via VoiD.
What worries me now is I believe sheik was one of the only characters whose meta was truly optimised due to the hard work of void... With the removal of options, there... Isn't that many new things to explore that void hasn't labbed for a year, as his career. I fully expect Zero to use sheik way less. A lot of other characters get a lot more reward for doing less. At this point, she might be the most honest character in the top 20. Definitely one that requires the most patience and skill.

As a Sheik main I understand that this patch has made smash 4 more balanced, but that pretty much means one or none solo sheik mains in top 8 now. I dont think low tiers are anymore viable with the top tier nerfs because the top 15 ( a large portion) still rinse them because of their own problems. I've always been an advocate of buffs rather than nerfs as having more options and powerful tools is more exciting across the boards. Sheik dittos have become absolute dire to watch. But whatever floats your boat, Sakurai.
 
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Megamang

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Re:Charizard

So, can he get off the ledge? I'm not exaggerating when I say that terrible ledge getup options are one of the biggest obstacles that heavies face, especially DK. We saw that Zero basically didn't let M2K off the ledge once he got him there, and it was basically all on reaction as well. That is a huge problem, especially when your character basically takes the first 60% and disadvantage/offstage situation as soon as they get hit with a decent combo starter against the speed demons that control the meta. I guess that Rock Smash and Flare Blitz are decent hail mary options, and having a few jumps means he can pressure his edgeguarder with aerials. Speaking of, he also has a usable fair for those kinds of situations, though his bair would be great there but unfortunately he doesn't have a good way to access it at all (you gonna b reverse flamethrower than use all your jumps? ) So i'd guess he is better off than DK. How much, will depend on the efficacy of those options, as well as small stuff like animations for each one (Zero can tell which ledge option DK is about to use in the opening frames, can you?)

HoSmash4 HoSmash4 You can be a fan of buffs, and I like buffs, but we can't just buff everyone to Shiek's power level. To do that, they'd basically either have to compete in neutral, or have stupidly strong advantage or disadvantage, or like... armored moves that when you call out something, you smash through and kill at 60. We'd have polarized matchups everywhere because to maintain a characters' identity, we'd give them suped up stuff that fits, and then balance would be terrible in MUs everywhere. Much better to pick a reasonable power level, and push towards it with everyone. We are closer to that than we have ever been. And yes, as an ex ZSS/Rosa main, I wanted to play mid tiers but my region was too needly. Now I can, knowing it is only a slight disadvantage, and I get to fight back! It used to be needles until a grab would kill me, now they have to get close to kill me and we get to play smash! Sorry for !!!s everywhere, but im legitimately excited about this game for the first time in a while!

Re: M2's landing options. I feel they aren't so bad. He is one of the fastest characters in the air, and has specials that are pretty usable as a B reverse along with an amazing airdodge, so he gets around. His fair is pretty good for head on contesting someone trapping a landing, a lot of characters wouldn't like to repeatedly trade DA for fair. With a shadow ball (which he can get after a few hard knocks, since he gets charging time as he returns) he is even scarier. B reversed shadow ball can reap destruction, and someone creeping up to punish at a range can be nailed with a b-reversed disable, which is style points mostly but you really can't ignore the risk/reward on that. Off the ledge, confusion is actually useful since it can break shielding at the ledge (very powerful for certain characters like Diddy) while fair covers the non shielding options. Sure, he is large, so he can get juggled, but again I feel the mewtwo always has options. He just dies a little earlier than most for choosing the wrong option, and can die to stuff that won't always kill others. But, so does Shiek and Rosalina. So do most characters! (Playing Megaman makes you take your weight for granted)
 

HoSmash4

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The thing is none of top 15 have been top 15 as a result of a buff. Nerfing the top 5 doesn't change their bad matchups with the rest of the top 15. Right now the gate keep of viability will be the overwhelming tools that the top 15 possess.

We're getting closer I agree though. Nerfs to sonic, cloud bayonetta rosalina and Ryu's shoryuken will get us even closer.
 
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Big-Cat

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With regards to Sheik mains dropping her: VoiD had said that he was hoping for Sheik to be nerfed because he felt it would give him the opportunity to really take his play to the next level. Great attitude to have.
Whenever I see stuff like this, it reminds me of how I got tired of winning all the time with the infamous Chaos deck in Yugioh before the first ban list was released (damn I feel old and I'm only 25). It's definitely more rewarding when you have to work for what you want. Not to mention that if it's all easy for you, you get stagnant.
 

Emblem Lord

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I actually crave lines like this.

Ryu's roll is short as hell, he'd have to run up pretry close to abuse an option like this. What makes it viable.
His dash grab is top 5 in the game in terms of length so the threat of that keeps people shielding. Then you roll behind them.

Smart players will see it and say **** it I will let him grab me. Then they eat free % and lose stage control.

And Ryu is all about dat stage control.

SHHHHH...shhhhh...no one must know.

*hides in the shadows*
 

Diddy Kong

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Isn't Blade Beam trash? Eruption seems to be the better move regardless.

Take away Limit Cross Slash and I don't think Cloud would even be that great, though probably still better then Ike. But I don't think Cloud's so ridiculous that Ike might as well not exist like you're implying.
Am not saying Ike shouldn't excist, as am happy he's in Smash. But, Sakurai balantly made Ike slower than he is in Fire Emblem, and without his projectile attack... and then Cloud came into play. Bigger sword, fast like a rushdown character, and has a projectile. If Sakurai didn't want Ike to have these features, why should Cloud get them? Bad balancing, and the reason Cloud is so overused...
 

jespoke

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It just hit me that Sheik's (81) weight difference to Mewtwo (74) is now less than half of her distance from the cast mean (96; Pitts and Wii Fit). Before she was right between them! (12 points to either side)
 

Fex13

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im just afraid, that nintendo balances the game the wrong way in the future with nerfing the 'good' characters to the point, that everybody is just mediocre with a lack of options.
they should much rather buff the 'bad' characters to top/high tier level standards,making them faster, less lag, better combo ability to make the game more fun to watch and to give it more depth instead of taking away so many options, to the point where everything gets reset to neutral after 2 seconds. this design is terrible. i know cloud is going to be nerfed. they just have to make him slower and there you have it, rip. i really hope, they dont destroy this games competitive potential in the future.
heck, they are able to take away a lot of sheiks options, to the point where she is clearly no longer the best, but are unable to make samus' jab connect properly since the beginning of this damn game??
samus as an example: make the jab connect, make morph ball explode upon contact with the opponent(it would be so much better) and make her fall a little bit faster/give her more air speed with a better hitbox on nair. wouldnt make her broken in any way. she would be a lot better though, while also being more fun to watch and play.
nintendo often is nerfing/buffing the wrong areas of a character, and that annoys me a lot. im really afraid of what is going to happen to cloud for example in the future, cause FG kids cant handle dair and Fsmash...
another example: charizard. what they did to him was actually very nice, but he still isnt good. he is now mid tierish but not good. and thats what i mean. buff charizard more( making him even faster in the air and a bit less laggy, take away a BIT of his kill power to balance it, and the character is going to be up there.
i dont want every character in the end to be mediocre. i want every character to be great. both varaiants would be balanced, but gameplay wise, the latter options is so much better.
nintendo, dont **** up.
 
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Wintermelon43

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im just afraid, that nintendo balances the game the wrong way in the future with nerfing the 'good' characters to the point, that everybody is just mediocre with a lack of options.
they should much rather buff the 'bad' characters to top/high tier level standards,making them faster, less lag, better combo ability to make the game more fun to watch and to give it more depth instead of taking away so many options, to the point where everything gets reset to neutral after 2 seconds. this design is terrible. i know cloud is going to be nerfed. they just have to make him slower and there you have it, rip. i really hope, they dont destroy this games competitive potential in the future.
heck, they are able to take away a lot of sheiks options, to the point where she is clearly no longer the best, but are unable to make samus' jab connect properly since the beginning of this damn game??
samus as an example: make the jab connect, make morph ball explode upon contact with the opponent(it would be so much better) and make her fall a little bit faster/give her more air speed with a better hitbox on nair. wouldnt make her broken in any way. she would be a lot better though, while also being more fun to watch and play.
nintendo often is nerfing/buffing the wrong areas of a character, and that annoys me a lot. im really afraid of what is going to happen to cloud for example in the future, cause FG kids cant handle dair and Fsmash...
another example: charizard. what they did to him was actually very nice, but he still isnt good. he is now mid tierish but not good. and thats what i mean. buff charizard more( making him even faster in the air and a bit less laggy, take away a BIT of his kill power to balance it, and the character is going to be up there.
i dont want every character in the end to be mediocre. i want every character to be great. both varaiants would be balanced, but gameplay wise, the latter options is so much better.
nintendo, dont **** up.
tbh, the nerfs given were actually kinda deserved really, Sheik and ZSS are still top 10 and Meta Knight is still top 15. Everyone thinks the game is more balanced now, in fact, we don't even have a clear best character yet. Which is really good. As long as they don't nerf the new best character candidates next balance patch (IF there's a next balance patch), the game should be fine.
 

Nobie

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I think it's VERY clear based on all of the patches that the Smash dev team is not at all about nerfing everyone into being the same character. For each character they've taken pretty much a tailored approach based on that character, and anyone who's focusing too much on Sheik losing what makes her "viable" and is arguing that we're reaching a game where everyone is Mario is missing the forest for the trees.

Sheik is clearly supposed to be a character that's fast but weak, a Chipp Zanuff type who's good at racking up damage and avoiding things but has problems killing. All of the patches have pointed her in this direction, increasing her combo potential for DAMAGE as opposed to her potential for DEATH COMBOS. This sounds like Mario too, but Mario doesn't have the feel of a ninja, and his lack of long limbs changes the way he plays significantly. Also, I want you to think about the following:

If both Mario and Sheik are meant to be combo characters who have trouble netting kills, but the latter is actually NOT bad at netting kills... is that Sheik's "unique competitive identity" or does it mean she's just a straight-up better character?

With Mewtwo, everyone was clamoring for weight buffs, to make him live longer, etc. We finally got one change, a 2 point weight increase, but that's in addition to a host of buffs that are focused not on making Mewtwo more forgiving when making mistakes, but allowing Mewtwo to 1) avoid mistakes more reliably 2) vastly improving his risk to reward ratio. Mewtwo went from glass cannon...to EVEN MORE GLASS CANNON.

It would be easy to buff Ganondorf. Just make his attacks faster and stronger and you're done, right? But Ganondorf is supposed to be a slow character that thrives off of reads, and if you just made him hit harder and faster in general that would defeat the purpose of his character archetype. Instead, over the course of about 18 months he's mostly had his endlag frames reduced, which means he can avoid being punished as often for making a bad read, and has had JAB sped up and Wiz Kick made stronger so that he can avoid situations where he isn't allowed to make reads at all. What they HAVEN'T done is homogenize him.

Diddy Kong was always a good and versatile character disguised as a one-note wonder. He's supposed to be a monkey, and monkeys are fast, strong, and sneaky, but at the same time he shouldn't be better at killing than Donkey Kong. Diddy had a bunch of fantastic tools and as we eventually saw a varied game plan that incorporates all of them, but they were all hidden by the hoo hah. You can't tell me their intent for Diddy's identity was "up airs people at mid percents and wins."

I could go on and on. Go ahead, pick any character.

One last thing: Characters are supposed to have weaknesses
 
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Smooth Criminal

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a Chipp Zanuff type who's good at racking up damage and avoiding things but has problems killing
...Chipp has really good damage output, actually. He just can't afford to make mistakes or he's dead, lol

but I agree with what you're saying overall

Smooth Criminal
 
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Nobie

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...Chipp has really good damage output, actually. He just can't afford to make mistakes or he's dead, lol

but I agree with what you're saying overall

Smooth Criminal
Well, it changes things when one game's victory condition is built off of pure damage, and the other makes a distinction in damage vs. kills. Mostly I was thinking about the old GGXX Chipp vs. Potemkin matchup where it looked like Potemkin was being whittled down by toothpicks.

Haven't played enough Xrd, but I do recall hearing that Chipp is much more of a shenanigans character now. Not sure who I'd substitute in as an appropriate example.
 
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Jamurai

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His dash grab is top 5 in the game in terms of length so the threat of that keeps people shielding.
I must be missing something here. How does the threat of a good dash grab keep people shielding? Surely it makes them dodge, roll, move, jump... basically anything but.
 

Luco

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I don't know where all the Mewtwo mains are getting the idea that people are still under-rating their character. It feels like we're always talking about how godlike he is now. Guys, it's okay, really we know how potent :150: is. :p

I'm so glad Counter Surge was pulled down to reasonable counter standards. The other day I was at a tourney and went against a Corrin as Lucas, mid-way through I mis-inputted and used Usmash in a juggling situation, Corrin countered and well... I don't really remember what happened next, but an artist at the scene drew a quick sketch of the next few moments:


This works in so many ways omg how did Lucas + Bayo ever overshadow this?

A lot of people have expressed concern over the recurring nerf cycle, and in more ways than one. The big point that a lot of people are addressing now is "Will the game end up as 60 different Marios?" I'm pretty sure we can safely rule that out, especially seeing as it's taken a year and a half to nerf 4 or 5 characters significantly to be a little more in line with other members of the cast, and even then not by much. Do you really think the dev team has 50 years to go about doing that??

What I wanted to address is "they'll nerf the best character, then we'll just complain about the next most broken one until THEy get nerfed." Which is kinda true and it's kinda not. I remember EXPLICITLY back in 3DS and early wii U days when we identified Diddy as top tier, a post from Shaya caught my eye where he talked about the broken-ness of both Diddy AND Sheik. That problem was identified all that time ago. Since then there have been minimal call-outs for nerfs to the other top tiers - ZSS and Rosa have been called out but usually just for effective slap-on-the-wrist nerfs, and Cloud is a new character and no-one really knows where he (or bayo) lies so I think given time those complaints will settle down, or else we WILL come to the conclusion that Cloud was made to be too good and a nerf is justified (tbh I think Cloud is more likely to be #1 than Bayo), but there's been very little call-outs for real nerfs on other top tiers, and usually the borderline jank goes away without people asking for it anyway.

So uhh, I don't think the nerfs are really a bad thing. I'm super happy with how this latest patch has turned out and I think smash 4 is close to being the most balanced smash game if it isn't already whilst maintaining a lot of what makes it so fun.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I must be missing something here. How does the threat of a good dash grab keep people shielding? Surely it makes them dodge, roll, move, jump... basically anything but.
My bad i worded that wrong. Mean to say he an THREATEN shield well due to that.

Sorry I was tired as **** when I wrote that.

But I took a nappy nap so im all good now.

Putting my big boy pants on and everything.
 
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Diddy Kong

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I think Mewtwo is legit because he's a character that often people deemed as unviable, but even before these buffs, MewSquared was already booking legit results vs Sheiks and Clouds. It's safe to say he's a lot more viable now, and might go even with those two characters.

I actually think Diddy is gonna hold an advantage over Sheik now. Getting stage control vs Diddy is gonna be a lot harder now. I find it weird that Diddy gets talked so little about after this patch. Yes, Rosalina is still a hard matchup but she doesn't invalidate Diddy in the slightest. Not recently at least. Diddy has actually good results against Rosalina as of late. And ZeRo is without doubt going to throw his Diddy in more now Sheik is nerfed. In fact, with the many changes Sheik has had with this patch, ZeRo's safest option is without doubt using Diddy. Marinate on that for a minute or two.

Diddy is the future boys. Hoo-Hah nation is awating another Kongquest. :4diddy:
 

bc1910

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What do we think of :4pit::4darkpit: in the current patch?

I feel they've endured these patches pretty well. Unlike :4wario2::4yoshi::4peach: who have all been casualties of the power creep, the Pits have maintained their position around 15-18th.

What I'm wondering is whether the Pits still deserve to be in top 20. :4greninja: is at least as good as them now, and :4mewtwo: gives them a run for their money. :4falcon: is in a stronger position now as well.

Their results are pretty lacklustre outside Japan (and even then, outside Earth). There have been a lot of comparisons with :4corrin: and :4cloud: as well. I don't know enough about their MUs to talk about how the patch affected them specifically, but I do know that while they won't be complaining about an easier Sheik MU, they were never gatekept by her like other characters were.

I dunno. Where do you think the Pits have ended up?
 
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Nobie

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I just remembered this, but Ally actually used Yoshi for a match in that weekly I mentioned...to fight Sheik.

I'll summarize the match for you:

1) Dair x 100
2) http://oddshot.tv/shot/gooshigaming-201603180575636

Now that Sheik has trouble killing, all of the other "bad at killing" characters have gained a new kind of confidence.
 

Peppermint1201

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Despite what was said in this thread a few days ago, Tea has not dropped Pac-Man. A video dated as March 17 was uploaded to niconico showing Ginko and Tea doing a Pac-Man ditto in 1.1.5. There's a youtube mirror here, it's insane to watch.

Nu~ Nu~
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I'd like to briefly backpedal into the subject of bottom 5 contenders because there's one character that should be mentioned but hasn't been: Bowser Jr.

Seems fairly obvious to me that he's bottom 10, especially after this patch. Would not be surprised it he was actually bottom 5 now though. His neutral game is absolutely awful. Almost all of his basic grounded options are either underwhelming [projectiles, tilts, dsmash, usmash] or just straight-up dysfunctional [jab, grab, fsmash], the only consistently useful option he has in neutral is dtilt. That might just add up to be one of the worst neutral games of the whole cast now that Ganondorf, Samus and Zelda had their neutral options buffed. But Bjr also has a terrible disadvantaged state as well. He's a big target with no combo-breaking move and upB gets him out of sticky situations only temporarly as the commitment is way too high to keep him risk-free. His damage output isn't good and he has nothing to set up KOs with. The only good option he has is uair which requires the opponent to be put in very specific spots [something that Bjr is naturally not good at].

One only needs to look at how badly Tweek lost to Komorikiri's Sonic at G3 to understand how much he was held back by the character. As soon as he got his hands on somebody competent he'd take on the likes of Ranai and dabuz [#3 and #3 at G3 respectively!]. If you wanna argue Palutena, Roy or Falco to be bottom 5 then there's no way you shouldn't at least mention Bowser Jr as well. Character's terrible.

:059:
 

ReRaze

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What do we think of :4pit::4darkpit: in the current patch?

I feel they've endured these patches pretty well. Unlike :4wario2::4yoshi::4peach: who have all been casualties of the power creep, the Pits have maintained their position around 15-18th.

What I'm wondering is whether the Pits still deserve to be in top 20. :4greninja: is at least as good as them now, and :4mewtwo: gives them a run for their money. :4falcon: is in a stronger position now as well.

Their results are pretty lacklustre outside Japan (and even then, outside Earth). There have been a lot of comparisons with :4corrin: and :4cloud: as well. I don't know enough about their MUs to talk about how the patch affected them specifically, but I do know that while they won't be complaining about an easier Sheik MU, they were never gatekept by her like other characters were.

I dunno. Where do you think the Pits have ended up?
They are still really solid and even though I want to say they deserve their spot on top of high tier....well I don't wanna be biased, they are too solid to drop below 20 imo, I mean, in theory they have the tools to take on pretty much any MU, that counts for something right? They also do not have any major exploitable weaknesses like :4falcon:'s recovery and simple gameplan, :4mewtwo:'s weight and size, :4corrin:'s mobility and :4greninja:'s struggle against pressure due to lack of OoS options. Their gameplan and neutral, moreso for :4pit: is far more versatile than alot of the cast and what :4darkpit: lacks he makes up for in sheer kill power. Then again there is the issue. This is all THEORY, there are not nearly enough results or footage in tournament to truly confirm any of this and how good they really are, they are just so under-represented and that is what's really killing em. It's because of their lack of results that I feel it is unfair to keep them so high, the characters you listed have proven their capabilities a number of times in high level competitive play (except maybe :4falcon: don't quote me on that). The Pits have yet to prove much, I mean who's to say that it is actually Earth carrying the character and not the other way around, would Earth do better had he mained a different high tier?
 
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Jalil

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Despite what was said in this thread a few days ago, Tea has not dropped Pac-Man. A video dated as March 17 was uploaded to niconico showing Ginko and Tea doing a Pac-Man ditto in 1.1.5. There's a youtube mirror here, it's insane to watch.

Nu~ Nu~
Unrelated but stuff like that is exactly why I'm tryna main pacman. He's so fun for me to play and watch. I used to main megaman, rosa and greninja then I dropped rosa for shulk and I've always wanted to pick up pacman. I feel like I'm committing myself to too many characters :cry:
 
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Nu~

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Despite what was said in this thread a few days ago, Tea has not dropped Pac-Man. A video dated as March 17 was uploaded to niconico showing Ginko and Tea doing a Pac-Man ditto in 1.1.5. There's a youtube mirror here, it's insane to watch.

Nu~ Nu~
Absolutely beautiful. So much shenanigans in one match :love:

After this patch, many pacman mains were upset that all we got were slight KBG buffs on our smashes and Bair. However, I'm curious as to just how relevant pacman will become in a meta with Wario out of the way and a nerfed ZSS + cloud.

Of course fox, cloud, and lucario still pose some problems, but perhaps pacman will see the light of day again?
Just like post patch sheik, kill confirm optimization is what pacman NEEDS right now.

So...back to work for me!:4pacman:
 
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Nidtendofreak

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@ "Mewtwo is high tier" claims.

Just look at the current tier list. Look who is in mid tier. We have character(s) who have placed top 8 at internationals in there (Ike, MegaMan, Pac-Man IIRC and possibly Falcon? I don't really remember the earlier ones well), we have characters who are complete terrors in certain regions (Pit/Dark Pit, Toon Link, Luigi) and other characters that have had excellent showings at massive tournaments (DK).

If multiple characters can place top 8 at an international and still be E tier by the SSB4 BR criteria there is no way Mewtwo is reaching tier high. Not even a remote chance. Most of us agree that mid tier itself is a bit of a mess that needs to be reorganized, but Mewtwo is joining their ranks and its not due to stigma or previous bias. The bar for high tier in this game is simply that high, and its a bar Mewtwo hasn't reach and most likely can never reach.

Its great that your character got buffed a whole bunch. Makes them a lot more fun to use and they're certainly a lot more viable. But you gotta take a dose of reality with it as well. Take it from a main of arguably the one character who got buffed more overall throughout the game than Mewtwo in terms of tier placement. And hey, if mid tier can make noise at freaking internationals that's not a bad place to be.
 
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