Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Amadeus9]

Ikes combos are mad dumb on mk, light + fast fall is the worst combination. It is also no longer worth attempting to dash attack thru his fair because the reward simply isnt there. Ike can fair, we have to back off.

Peach mu is the same deal, it is no longer worth challenging her because the reward simply isnt there, you have to play p much completely honestly. Peach still doesnt want to pressure our shield tho, Usmash is still ****ing scary as hell.

 

[busken]

Nah, it's even at worst imo. I played way too many Ikes, and even with the nerf it's not -1.
I do think Peach is even though.

 

[Big-Cat]

if anyone is interested, here is the new mk mu spread according to the mk discord/skype group

Spoiler: mu spread

I can elaborate on anything if anyone wants but i feel most of it is pretty self explanatory.



Lucina is not sluggish at all, I dont know what you are talking about. She can freely push buttons in neutral at almost all times. If you are spacing unsafe enough to get punished that is your fault as a player.

Did the Stairway To Heaven removal really make the MU against Bowser even? I mean, I considered it 7:3 because of that, but that's a huge shift regardless.

 

[ARISTOS]

ayy lmao

 

[Amadeus9]

Did the Stairway To Heaven removal really make the MU against Bowser even? I mean, I considered it 7:3 because of that, but that's a huge shift regardless.

Bowsers U-throw combos + pivot grab range + mk being a ground based fighter + bowsers nearly unpunishable ftilt make the mu border line disadvantage. Oh also MK cant fair bowsers shield, bowser can drop shield jab grab, its gross

 

[adom4]

MK has no answers to Mewtwo charging shadow ball at ledge, plain and simple. He didnt prepatch either but now we have way less reward on confirm (mewtwo doesnt die everytime hes touched)

Ganon lost hard before because he died to uair combos. Now we feed him rage and die to random smashes early. Still positive but u have to play careful

So wait the Uair chains don't work on Ganon anymore?

 

[Amadeus9]

So wait the Uair chains don't work on Ganon anymore?

They don't kill

 

[L9999]

In what MU does throwing out random smashes warrant a use of Lucina over Marth?

Not antagonistic, just curious.

Miswrote it. By thowing out Smashes I'm not talking about using them and expect to get scott free, I'm talking about punishing. No matter what part of the sword, Lucina can throw out a Smash attack and expect it to kill, unlike Marth, who realistically cannot get tipper on every punish he makes.

 

[Big-Cat]

Bowsers U-throw combos + pivot grab range + mk being a ground based fighter + bowsers nearly unpunishable ftilt make the mu border line disadvantage. Oh also MK cant fair bowsers shield, bowser can drop shield jab grab, its gross

You're like the first person here to say FTilt is good.

 

[Amadeus9]

You're like the first person here to say FTilt is good.

Is it not? Cause it's really good against MK

 

[warionumbah2]

How does Fodder Knight go even with Ryu? Also can you explain how the Sheik MU goes in your mind? Haven't watched S2H vs K9 yet, Tyrant also seems optimistic about this Fodder orb.

 

[FullMoon]

Everytime I make a MU chart for Greninja somebody says a MU I put as even is actually in frog's favor lol

 

[Amadeus9]

How does Fodder Knight go even with Ryu? Also can you explain how the Sheik MU goes in your mind? Haven't watched S2H vs K9 yet, Tyrant also seems optimistic about this Fodder orb.

Sheik mu is kinda similar except now her fair is way less threatening, needles control us less, and we almost never die to throws. AKA everything bad about the MU is gone or less awful. Now it's like, we get 1 hit for sheik's 2, then because she cant kill we get a dash attack upb kill at 50% cause rage.

Ryu we were debating, dunno if -1 or even :v I would say -1 myself tbh

 

[Big-Cat]

Is it not? Cause it's really good against MK

It is. It's just that no one here says it. The damn thing has intangibility on the first. It SCREAMS anti-air.

 

[Jams.]

if anyone is interested, here is the new mk mu spread according to the mk discord/skype group

Spoiler: mu spread

I can elaborate on anything if anyone wants but i feel most of it is pretty self explanatory.



Lucina is not sluggish at all, I dont know what you are talking about. She can freely push buttons in neutral at almost all times. If you are spacing unsafe enough to get punished that is your fault as a player.

Could you please elaborate on the ROB MU? Some high level ROB players felt that the MU was now even or in ROB's favour, but that was day 1 nerf theorycraft without any actual gameplay, so I'd like to know this MU goes now that MK's post-patch meta has advanced more. In my mind, ROB has the tools to limit MK's grounded approaches and can also kill MK incredibly early with dthrow -> uair.

ayy lmao

TBH Umeki is just going to get Peach nerfed again. The last change was specifically targeted at her infinite, and they'll continue adjusting her until she doesn't have an infinite anymore.

 

[sedrf]

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete
reminder midwest mayhem is today featuring: Mr. R, Ally, Hyuga, Sethlon, Max Ketchum, Akiro, KSEV, JJROCKETS, Dan, Greenbeast, Ned, NiTe.
also final round is happening to.

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete
reminder midwest mayhem is today featuring: Mr. R, Ally, Hyuga, Sethlon, Max Ketchum, Akiro, KSEV, JJROCKETS, Dan, Greenbeast, Ned, NiTe.
also final round is happening to.

Where's the stream for final round?

 

[Y2Kay]

You want options/mixups along with safety?

Greninja has plenty. He ain't high tier. Peach oozes both options and potential with all of the float stuff she can do. She ain't high tier. Toon Link has buckets of options and ways to layer his tools. He ain't high tier.

On the flip side, Ness has a pretty darn straight forwards plan. He's high tier.

Its not that straight forwards and you're overestimating your character. He's not high tier.

If you're thinking of the 4BR 1.0 definition of "High tier" then yeah, he is overrating. Acording to the tier list he should be mid tier. But This was skewed because the smash 4 back room felt that deserved their own tier, so these three where the only ones considered top tier. Now with these nerfs, I think it is fair to assume that they aren't any special snowflakes any more.

I assume that high tiers where characters like this:

mewtwo being on par with them isn't a stretch right?

 

[Big-Cat]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[sedrf]

final round is on smash studios

 

[Amadeus9]

Could you please elaborate on the ROB MU? Some high level ROB players felt that the MU was now even or in ROB's favour, but that was day 1 nerf theorycraft without any actual gameplay, so I'd like to know this MU goes now that MK's post-patch meta has advanced more. In my mind, ROB has the tools to limit MK's grounded approaches and can also kill MK incredibly early with dthrow -> uair.



TBH Umeki is just going to get Peach nerfed again. The last change was specifically targeted at her infinite, and they'll continue adjusting her until she doesn't have an infinite anymore.

That MU could easily shift to ROB's favor, it's mostly based on the fact that he's still super easy to combo. There's a few fighters like that, wherein if we get a grab at 0% it's almost hard NOT to convert that contact into 60%+

Beep Boop tho

We will see how it plays out in practice at top levels of play, I guess. A long time ago (about a year ago) all us MK mains thought we lost the MU, until we saw how much the results DIDN'T support that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

final round is on smash studios

Link? Sechedule?

 

[Das Koopa]

I said in my post that it was 1111 Brawler. Guest size if you wanted specifics on that.

No, I'm asking how 3 different moves turn him from 58th to being able to compete with VoiD's Sheik. I find that to be pretty silly, because as important as specials are, theere has to be something decent there with the normals for everything to come together.

 

[Y2Kay]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I think Bowser goes even with pit actually

 

[L9999]

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete
reminder midwest mayhem is today featuring: Mr. R, Ally, Hyuga, Sethlon, Max Ketchum, Akiro, KSEV, JJROCKETS, Dan, Greenbeast, Ned, NiTe.
also final round is happening to.

Roy action? Also, NiTe plays Charizard or am I confusing him with someone?

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Bowser goes even with pit actually

Like I said, not 100% sure on these matchups. Meta in my area is NOT diverse.

 

[warionumbah2]

Sheik mu is kinda similar except now her fair is way less threatening, needles control us less, and we almost never die to throws. AKA everything bad about the MU is gone or less awful. Now it's like, we get 1 hit for sheik's 2, then because she cant kill we get a dash attack upb kill at 50% cause rage.

Appreciate the response, this sounds plausible.

We will see how it plays out in practice at top levels of play, I guess. A long time ago (about a year ago) all us MK mains thought we lost the MU, until we saw how much the results DIDN'T support that.

Yoshi, ZSS and Diddy? Good times. Tyrant isn't going to 2GG FOW saga so we'll be waiting even longer for actual gameplay, i'm not satisfied with Ito ****ting on a Falcon via edgeguards, hope to keep the theorycraft to a minimum. Alreadyhad some MK main spamming the thread previously.

 

[LancerStaff]

Am not saying Ike shouldn't excist, as am happy he's in Smash. But, Sakurai balantly made Ike slower than he is in Fire Emblem, and without his projectile attack... and then Cloud came into play. Bigger sword, fast like a rushdown character, and has a projectile. If Sakurai didn't want Ike to have these features, why should Cloud get them? Bad balancing, and the reason Cloud is so overused...

And Cloud can't kill off of every other move or a throw combo. Ike's just that much more powerful... Swords are the same length. Ike with good mobility would probably be more broke then Cloud is. Ike with a decent projectile might be more broke then Cloud is. Like I said before, Blade Beam is garbage. It only exists to give Cloud a Nspecial without Limit. If Ike had a non-projectile like this it would be replacing an actual useful move and would make Ike objectively worse. You're complaining about balance and then turning around saying Ike either should be more op then Cloud or that Ike should have Blade Beam...

Look, I don't mean to start anything and I don't want to offend you, but you've been pretty upset about Cloud's inclusion in the past and I suspect this is related to that. I mean, he's most likely going to be nerfed before the patches stop, and with how they balance SSB4 he's well within reason.

What do we think of in the current patch?

I feel they've endured these patches pretty well. Unlike who have all been casualties of the power creep, the Pits have maintained their position around 15-18th.

What I'm wondering is whether the Pits still deserve to be in top 20. is at least as good as them now, and gives them a run for their money. is in a stronger position now as well.

Their results are pretty lacklustre outside Japan (and even then, outside Earth). There have been a lot of comparisons with and as well. I don't know enough about their MUs to talk about how the patch affected them specifically, but I do know that while they won't be complaining about an easier Sheik MU, they were never gatekept by her like other characters were.

I dunno. Where do you think the Pits have ended up?

The Pits weren't really gatekept by one character, but having very definitely losing matchups to the best two characters (best three in Japan with Sonic I think?) severely impacted their use. If Sheik's killing ability is as bad as it seems it's probably an even matchup, and ZSS is way more manageable. If Sonic is his only BS matchup now that's more then some top tiers can say.

I find the claims that Corrin and Cloud are just straight upgrades hard to swallow since we have reason to believe the Pits go even or maybe better in the matchups. I mean, if they were that much better overall then how could it be even? The Pits have definite and clear advantages over them, from both playstyle and matchup spread perspectives. I have reason to believe that they're better then Corrin and would be better then a nerfed Cloud.

 

[Das Koopa]

Midwest Mayhem and Final Round will be added to muh data list judging by the entrants

Hopefully Fatality can start bringing Falcon back.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Someone is gotta be Bottom 5 indeed, and really does fit the fill. He's got a slow and predictable projectile, he's combo food, no moves really link into each other, he cannot be on the defensive at all whilst his offense is lackluster, he's real laggy and not all too mobile outside of Side B and he pretty much has bad matchups all over the cast.

As for absolute worst character, I say is gotta be it now. was pretty horrible before, but with her new D Throw U Air Hoo-Hah she ****s all over Jigglypuff's existance, making the matchup in her favor. She probably has the worst Match Up spread of the cast, as she likely loses to indiviuals as for example. Does she actually go even with anyone?

If I got to vote for a Bottom 5, I'd say it's .

Mii Gunner is not worse than Mii Swordfighter. Gunner has more top level representation than Swordfighter. In addition Gunner's neutral game is much better than Swordfighter's and Gunner's disadvantage state is also better than Swordfighter's. While Swordfighter's advantage state is better than Gunner's, it doesn't make up for the fact that Gunner's neutral game much better than Swordfighter's.

Although I have already posted this video, it shows some of the results that Gunner has been getting. It also shows Gunner's neutral against another character with a top-tier neutral. Gunner has also been getting some results in Mexico recently. A player named KV Flama got second place in a Mexican regional, and he was ranked 68th in their Smashboards power rankings. If you want to see his Gunner, then you can look up KV Flama on YouTube.

if anyone is interested, here is the new mk mu spread according to the mk discord/skype group

Spoiler: mu spread

I can elaborate on anything if anyone wants but i feel most of it is pretty self explanatory.



Lucina is not sluggish at all, I dont know what you are talking about. She can freely push buttons in neutral at almost all times. If you are spacing unsafe enough to get punished that is your fault as a player.

Putting Meta Knight winning +3 against Gunner is anything but self explanatory. With the nerfs to Meta Knight's up air, I feel that the matchup is even at worst for Gunner. In my personal experience, I was able to beat a player that uses Meta Knight that was better than me. In addition, the other Meta Knight mains in my area switch off of Meta Knight when facing me. Gunner's shorthop fair is able to wall out Meta Knight very hard, and it's safety makes it very hard if not impossible to punish (it is also transcendent so it can't be stopped by Meta Knight's dash attack). In addition, Gunner can also combo into many of his/her moves from fair (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread) since it only has 12 frames of landing lag. It is also safe on perfect shielding. Gunner also edgeguards Meta Knight pretty well due to a flame pillar that covers the ledge for at least 40 frames and a charge blast or fsmash that covers every ledge option when timed properly. Gunner's gundashing also gives Gunner the mobility to juggle Meta Knight pretty well, and charge blast is also good for covering landings.

Mii Gunner's worst matchups have been agreed to be around 40-60. Gunner doesn't get hard countered by any character in the game. If you disagree, please feel free to talk about the matchup on the Mii Gunner matchup thread.

 

[Y2Kay]

No, I'm asking how 3 different moves turn him from 58th to being able to compete with VoiD's Sheik. I find that to be pretty silly, because as important as specials are, theere has to be something decent there with the normals for everything to come together.

Don't forget that custom miis can change their size too, as the mini one is much better than guest size

Helicopter kick is crazy good too.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah, there was that regional happening today and tomorrow here in Orlando I posted about yesterday. You guys may wanna pay attention to that since it's decently sized as well (165 entrants for singles, 28 teams for doubles).

The FBC Presents: Come to Papa (ft. Mew2King, Poltergust, Xaaltis, MVD, Poltergust, Sol, Ryo, Seibrik & More)

Stream (it's live right now!) | Stream Schedule | Brackets

 

[Peppermint1201]

After this patch, many pacman mains were upset that all we got were slight KBG buffs on our smashes and Bair. However, I'm curious as to just how relevant pacman will become in a meta with Wario out of the way and a nerfed ZSS + cloud.

Wario out of the way

Wario wasn't nerfed in 1.1.5, right? His fade out of relevancy and viability has no bearing on the Wario-Pacman matchup.

 

[Das Koopa]

Has Reflex totally switched to Mewtwo? He bodied a Falcon on stream

Edit: nvm, lost to Falcon G2 and switched to Wario, somehow lost G3 o_o

 

[C0rvus]

I know he was looking hard for a secondary and Mewtwo was one of the big contenders. I'd be willing to bet he's using him through pools to get some experience.

 

[bc1910]

Regarding the bottom 5 - it's hard to call right now. With a lot of previous contenders being lavished with buffs, I'm not sure there's one definitive correct answer.

What I know for sure is that Zard is no longer a contender for bottom 5. Roy should not be a contender either, nor should Falco or Bowser Jr, because these characters are all pretty good.

Assuming 1111 Guest Miis, I see bottom 5 as a tossup between these characters:



To be honest I really don't know enough about the Miis to say whether they're better or worse than any of these characters. Someone with more knowledge might be able to fashion a decent bottom 5 out of my selection.

I am pretty confident that Ganon, D3 and Puff are the bottom 3 though.

Everytime I make a MU chart for Greninja somebody says a MU I put as even is actually in frog's favor lol

In general (and this isn't a call-out, just an observation) I don't think his MU spread is as even as you believe. There are a few 0s on your list that I think are probably +1, most notably Mario and Olimar, but also Roy, Robin and maybe Lucina. Then there're the MK mains saying Greninja beats MK +2 (still think it's 0 or +1 for us).

In contrast, you (and I, to be fair) have maintained for as long as I can recall that Greninja only has 3 bad MUs - Sheik, Fox and Sonic. When in patches gone by we probably did lose to Diddy, Pikachu, Toon Link, Lucario, the list goes on. It's only with continued buffs that Greninja has a good claim toward going even with these characters.

He's too mobile with too good of a projectile to not have more polarized MUs than average, IMO.

I assume that high tiers where characters like this:

mewtwo being on par with them isn't a stretch right?

In my opinion you've listed the middle and lower end of high tier, and the higher end of mid tier.

I think Mewtwo is better than just over half of the characters you've listed.

 

[Amadeus9]

Mii Gunner is not worse than Mii Swordfighter. Gunner has more top level representation than Swordfighter. In addition Gunner's neutral game is much better than Swordfighter's and Gunner's disadvantage state is also better than Swordfighter's. While Swordfighter's advantage state is better than Gunner's, it doesn't make up for the fact that Gunner's neutral game much better than Swordfighter's.

Although I have already posted this video, it shows some of the results that Gunner has been getting. It also shows Gunner's neutral against another character with a top-tier neutral. Gunner has also been getting some results in Mexico recently. A player named KV Flama got second place in a Mexican regional, and he was ranked 68th in their Smashboards power rankings. If you want to see his Gunner, then you can look up KV Flama on YouTube.


Putting Meta Knight winning +3 against Gunner is anything but self explanatory. With the nerfs to Meta Knight's up air, I feel that the matchup is even at worst for Gunner. In my personal experience, I was able to beat a player that uses Meta Knight that was better than me. In addition, the other Meta Knight mains in my area switch off of Meta Knight when facing me. Gunner's shorthop fair is able to wall out Meta Knight very hard, and it's safety makes it very hard if not impossible to punish (it is also transcendent so it can't be stopped by Meta Knight's dash attack). In addition, Gunner can also combo into many of his/her moves from fair (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread) since it only has 12 frames of landing lag. It is also safe on perfect shielding. Gunner also edgeguards Meta Knight pretty well due to a flame pillar that covers the ledge for at least 40 frames and a charge blast or fsmash that covers every ledge option when timed properly. Gunner's gundashing also gives Gunner the mobility to juggle Meta Knight pretty well, and charge blast is also good for covering landings.

Mii Gunner's worst matchups have been agreed to be around 40-60. Gunner doesn't get hard countered by any character in the game. If you disagree, please feel free to talk about the matchup on the Mii Gunner matchup thread.

>gunner can juggle Metaknight well

I'm sorry, what

Also if sheik can't edgeguard MK what makes you think Gunner can, lmao. It's the other way around. How on earth does 1111 mid weight gunner ever get back to stage against an MK

As for Gunner's fair, I'm not concerned about the damage on that move at all. Having to jump to use it also opens you up to all kinda of nasty things.

Not to mention, Gunner has a grand total of 0 kill moves that are effective by any means. Even if you could get an MK up to high percentages simply shielding closes everything off to you.

 

[juddy96]

Has Reflex totally switched to Mewtwo? He bodied a Falcon on stream

Edit: nvm, lost to Falcon G2 and switched to Wario, somehow lost G3 o_o

Man, that's gonna be tough for Reflex. He's gonna spend the entire bracket in losers now.

 

[Deleted member]

@[FBC] Papa Mink looks like he has a pretty nice . Hope he gets around more. Lost to Sol in the set, though he took a game off him. Very close games between the two. Sol's Mac is still really something else.

 

[Peppermint1201]

EEEEEEExactly. ike is heavily overrated and i dont even know why. mewtwo is a much better character. ike is sooo damn straightforward, that if you just play patient and wait, ike doesnt have a chance to get in. his fair is nice and all, but he lacks mix ups so much. you can figure out ike extemely fast.

Ryo

Ryuga

San

Yeah dude, Ike is so overrated. This is not even including Rango's complete choke hold on the South.