Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Diddy Kong]

Sincerely,

Kong

 

[Big-Cat]

Big-Cat How does Bowser beat Falcon? Falcon gets one dthrow combo on Bowser, and it's just so easy to keep him off stage particularly on FD. That, and Bowser has a really hard time recovering vs falcon from anywhere except way above stage. Falcon has full reign to play his game (due to Bowser not having a real projectile) and doesn't get abused off stage.

You can fight Falcon with fundamentals. I make it a general rule to NOT rush on anyone fast than me. What you're looking at is strictly the advantage state here. Question is how often does Falcon get that against a smart Bowser?

 

[TurboLink]

Lag also prevents you from avoiding Roy's moves and punishing them. Roy online is annoying and unnecessarily difficult to fight because he can get away with so many things. But Roy offline is a complete joke.

I think it's more like people on For Glory suck at spacing, DI, and will always air-dodge into the ground after being down throwed.

View attachment 100741

Sincerely,

Kong

Why do you think the Diddy matchup is only -1 for Link?

 

[C0rvus]

Big-Cat How does Bowser beat Falcon? Falcon gets one dthrow combo on Bowser, and it's just so easy to keep him off stage particularly on FD. That, and Bowser has a really hard time recovering vs falcon from anywhere except way above stage. Falcon has full reign to play his game (due to Bowser not having a real projectile) and doesn't get abused off stage.




But he does have a grab game? It's the kind of grab game that Marth would die for, and the lack thereof is what is stopping Marth from being a high tier character.

I'm not the guy you asked for, but I have played the Bowser/Falcon MU. Beat Xatic, actually but this was right after Bowser got his up throw buff so grains of salt.
Again, both characters get to play their game here. Falcon can combo Bowser hard and he has a slight edge in neutral you could argue. But Bowser mains will likely feel very comfortable in neutral as well. Both characters usually deal with far worse.
Bowser at least keeps it even because of the sheer consistency of his kill power. He also racks damage just as easily as Falcon. Offstage, both characters have the tools to rough each other up, but Bowser imo is better offstage. Neither character is very good at getting back onstage, but Bowser has an easier time covering ledge options with Fortress if he just wants damage, or generally with his big hitboxes.
Overall, I think it's even, and both characters have a good shot at winning. At the same time, comebacks are really possible. Pretty fun matchup.

Edit: I guess I'm a bit late. Oh well.

 

[Gawain]

Good to see the SB tradition of circle jerk underrating Roy is still a thing. That's cool though, an opinion is still an opinion, even if its a conglomerate of people stroking themselves. Bottom 10 is hilarious.

In fact if I'm being totally honest, I don't even see the point of talking about placements below the halfway mark at all. The characters have such muddy mu spreads that its pretty much meaningless. But don't let me rain on your parade, continue by all means.

 

[PK Gaming]

Those B-reverse Aura sphere's...

I had no idea this character was so slippery.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You can fight Falcon with fundamentals. I make it a general rule to rush on anyone fast than me. What you're looking at is strictly the advantage state here. Question is how often does Falcon get that against a smart Bowser?

Grab to U Air follow ups work... N Air for rushdown is also gonna be uncomfortable for Bowser, as well as Falcon's overal mobility. But I get as a Bowser main, it's considered 'advantagous'. I don't wanna poop on your character at all, but Bowser is really just middle tier at best.

 

[C0rvus]

Good to see the SB tradition of circle jerk underrating Roy is still a thing. That's cool though, an opinion is still an opinion, even if its a conglomerate of people stroking themselves. Bottom 10 is hilarious.

In fact if I'm being totally honest, I don't even see the point of talking about placements below the halfway mark at all. The characters have such muddy mu spreads that its pretty much meaningless. But don't let me rain on your parade, continue by all means.

Ayyy fam, don't like, offer your own opinion of Roy or anything. That might be helpful or something. No? Just gonna talk ****? Ok boss.

This is part of the reason people are talking so poorly of Roy. I've seen two different users post like this.
"You guys still think Roy is bad? smh I'm outta here."
That tells us nothing.

I do agree with your second point, though. Throwing these MU spreads around just makes everyone seem better than they probably are. Trying to pin down the bottom of the cast at this point might be a fool's errand.

 

[FullMoon]

You mentioned all of these elaborate shield pressure tools with Toon Link, and all of these combos off of grab with Greninja. They all require elaborate and intricate understandings of Greninja and Toon Link, and heavily involve just a lot of complex elements.

Mewtwo, in contrast, simply has "grab (not tether grab), kill." And having that threat is what Mewtwo has more in common with Ness than Greninja or Toon Link.

Up-Throw -> Up-Air and D-Throw -> F-Air require elaborate and intricate understanding of Greninja? Man I must be better at this character than I thought.

Even if that was the case, so? I don't really get what you're saying. It requiring effort to do those things with those characters just makes them harder to play, not inefficient, it's not really an argument to say that Mewtwo is better than either of them. Pro level players will obviously have a elaborate and intricate understanding of their character unless said character is just really that easy to play.

I'm a believer in Mewtwo, don't get me wrong, and being able to score kills that easily is great too, but your argument isn't really making much sense.

 

[NairWizard]

Sometimes the theorycrafting in this topic gets absolutely ridiculous.

View attachment 100741

Sincerely,

Kong

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

Don't know how accurate this is. pic.twitter.com/Yh2XOt4fZ6

— Big Cat (@xBigCatx) March 19, 2016

Really? You guys have really listed 50:50s against a character you haven't played against in tournament before? Have we even seen any footage of Diddy vs. Sheik or Bowser vs. Sheik before from which to draw conclusions?

You can't just say "it was close to even before, even though we lost, now it surely must be even since Sheik's been nerfed." What the heck.

This is not how matchups work.

It's all about interaction of tools and how those interactions play out at a high level, not, "Sheik's power level dropped from 9,000 to 6,000, that must mean we go even with her now!"

 

[Megamang]

When we say that TL has trouble with shield, it isn't just sitting there in shield and he dies. Its that a slow crawl towards him, using walking and shield, while still playing to your characters' strength, is a good approach in the MU. Bombs and boomerangs can hit it all you want, if you know the MU and your timings well, your shield is going to absorb 500% throughout the match, and that is a problem. It is overcomable, yes, but a tether grab is a weakness in that scenario. Greninja on the other hand doesn't care so much, since his dash grab gets him in a solid position. Mewtwo has the best reward from grab, but a significantly worse dash grab. Still, SHAD -> Fair -> dtilt is great shield pressure. The other day, a megaman dropped shield on my fair and u-tilted my dtilt for a kill sub 80%, that is a problem too, but again not something that cannot be played around. In fact, its a huge risk for megaman to do that, it just happened to pay off.

I believe M2 is not far behind Greninja at all. Greninja is barely barely behind pikachu, perhaps over time he will be better. M2 is better, not vs, but in the metagame, than CF. In my opinion. M2 does surprisingly well vs characters near the top, where CF has huge problems and just takes it out on mid/low tiers brutally.

 

[Gawain]

Ayyy fam, don't like, offer your own opinion of Roy or anything. That might be helpful or something. No? Just gonna talk ****? Ok boss.

This is part of the reason people are talking so poorly of Roy. I've seen two different users post like this.
"You guys still think Roy is bad? smh I'm outta here."
That tells us nothing.

I do agree with your second point, though. Throwing these MU spreads around just makes everyone seem better than they probably are. Trying to pin down the bottom of the cast at this point might be a fool's errand.

Brother, I have been on this ride before. Ive posted PAGES of detailed stuff about Roy in this very thread in the past. It changes absolutely nothing. In fact, it often isn't even read and folks just reply with "tldr lol no".

So nah, not wasting my time regurgitating it into an audience that refuses to learn or budge on anything.

 

[C0rvus]

That's fair, I suppose. Not like the discussion in this thread really means much of anything at the end of the day.

I'm just bored and like to overthink Smash Bros. I can't post a lot in character specific boards, so here I am~

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sometimes the theorycrafting in this topic gets absolutely ridiculous.






Really? You guys have really listed 50:50s against a character you haven't played against in tournament before? Have we even seen any footage of Diddy vs. Sheik or Bowser vs. Sheik before from which to draw conclusions?

You can't just say "it was close to even before, even though we lost, now it surely must be even since Sheik's been nerfed." What the heck.

This is not how matchups work.

It's all about interaction of tools and how those interactions play out at a high level, not, "Sheik's power level dropped from 9,000 to 6,000, that must mean we go even with her now!"

Man, Diddy vs Sheik was already close to even before the patch... I'd even say the only reason Sheik had an advantage was due to Needles and her off-stage game. Now her on-stage game is weaker, I actually think Diddy BEATS Sheik onstage and it's considered even due to gimping.

Any other character besides Cloud that beats Sheiks as good as Diddy? Zero Suit Samus also lost to Sheik pre-patch.

The nerfs have happened, take the salt like a man.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

...Roy has a good edgeguarding game? That's news to me. It's a very risky investment to go offstage for him considering his high gravity and fall speed, along with a poor recovery.

His aerials have very low cool down, allowing him to hit the opponent with another Fair / Bair if they airdodge most of the time. Sourspot Fair also sends the opponent at really hard to recover angle. He's also got a lot of other good stuff like counter, a stage spiking recovery, and a good disjoint, etc. just like most other swordfighters. While he can't use these tools as effectively as other swordfighters like Marth for edgeguarding, they are still nonetheless, effective at edge guarding.

 

[Deleted member]

Good to see the SB tradition of circle jerk underrating Roy is still a thing. That's cool though, an opinion is still an opinion, even if its a conglomerate of people stroking themselves. Bottom 10 is hilarious.

In fact if I'm being totally honest, I don't even see the point of talking about placements below the halfway mark at all. The characters have such muddy mu spreads that its pretty much meaningless. But don't let me rain on your parade, continue by all means.

Bottom 10 isn't a huge stretch honestly. But we're not trying to insinuate Roy is irredeemable, but more or less irrelevant in the meta and suffers from having tools and a weird design philosophy that just doesn't pan out at high level Smash 4, and his tournament results (or lack thereof) go to show it.

Roy has good footsies, movement speed (even if his poor air acceleration bites him in the arse) and his moves like nair and dtilt are legit great moves.
His biggest problem similar to (but NOT to the same extent) is how punishable his sourspots are and how ridiculously minimal reward they have on-hit. His throw combos stop reliably working past low to mid percents, and he still suffers from taking stocks off efficiently due to most of his most powerful attacks having a high amount of endlag (besides Flare Blade, and even then it can be shielded on reaction) or requiring a good read to hit somebody with due to his mediocre range.

Being a fastfaller isn't a favorable trait for him since it makes him very susceptible to being combo'd or juggled, and he's rather easy to gimp offstage and falls victim to aggressive edgeguarding or those who can effectively keep him out generally or just outright have better frame data, range or conversions than him. I'm just not seeing what kind of splash Roy could possibly make in his current state. Maybe someday we'll see and I'll be proved wrong, but as far as I'm concerned Roy is definitely a low tier character.

 

[RDR7]

Ganondorf literally has to land like, 2 or 3 hits on her to kill Jigglypuff. His range also should be a problem, especially since Jab is now much faster. I think Ganondorf has the advantage because of that. Also his F Air probably has far more priority than anything she can pull. He can effectively keep her at bay. And if Zelda already has an advantage over Jigglypuff, why wouldn't Ganondorf?

Zelda has an up b that can kill puff off the top at 50, punishing almost any careless mistake. Puff can do the same thing to zelda with rest tho. Also notice I said Zelda "probably" has the advantage now.(not sure how volatile the throw combo is so feel free to let me know) Not before. I don't see ganon getting any vast improvements on the matchup from the patch, besides jab. The Ganon mu overall is different because he can get an early kill but he needs a read and doesn't have an amazing punish out of shield like zelda does. His fair is frame 14. Every one of my aerials are faster than that, my air mobility is far superior so I can just weave back in and punish him for it. Fair was literally his worst aerial to give an example on. His best aerial in the puff mu imo is either up air (hits at the back) or bair. And if some disagree then they are definitely better than Ganon's fair. Nair is fine but that has only hit me out of a throw or ganon running off the edge and using nair. You also need to put puff's advantage of her offstage game into play. She can take ganon's stock just as early offstage as he can to puff onstage. Getting him off in my eyes isn't that difficult either. His frame data is not threatening at all outside of shorthop bair or upair. Where as puff has dash attack oos which sends him at a rather decent distance offstage at 80 for a gimp situation. (labbing all of this from the game itself to prevent false info) And crouch makes wizard foot and flame choke whiff which can lead to a hard rest punish for ganon at 58 percent. Taking a stock. I just can't see this mu being as bad as ganon mains say. They both have enough advantages in their gameplay that lead me to believe that it's even. Also if you are going to put the fact she is lightweight in the situation then I guess kirby, game and watch, and rosa lose this mu. ;^ / Which in my eyes doesn't seem credible either.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think it's more like people on For Glory suck at spacing, DI, and will always air-dodge into the ground after being down throwed.



Why do you think the Diddy matchup is only -1 for Link?

Banana can be stopped with his shield, and he can get some decent hits on Diddy using his projectiles for spacing. He still loses, but not as bad as -2... Probably 35-65 or something... If I make another one, I think I'll include a list of characters Diddy beats 35-65 because +1 and +2 alone isn't a good representation of what the dynamics are of those matchups.

 

[NairWizard]

Man, Diddy vs Sheik was already close to even before the patch... I'd even say the only reason Sheik had an advantage was due to Needles and her off-stage game. Now her on-stage game is weaker, I actually think Diddy BEATS Sheik onstage and it's considered even due to gimping.

Any other character besides Cloud that beats Sheiks as good as Diddy? Zero Suit Samus also lost to Sheik pre-patch.

yet all of this is just theory that you're spinning up and pasting onto a matchup chart. A matchup chart is meant (typically) to be a meaningful reflection of experiences and analysis. There has been no experience or analysis about how the matchup plays now at a high level. Right now your chart is literally saying (with regard to the Sheik MU), "take this statement at face value because I play this character and am a good judge of how balance changes will affect matchup dynamics."

For the actual theory, I have no idea why you think that Diddy beats Sheik onstage all of a sudden. The tools that allowed Sheik to compete with (and beat) Diddy are still in full swing; the Needle nerf matters a little, but Sheik never wanted to camp Diddy from long-range in the first place, and if she did it wasn't particularly difficult for Diddy to close the gap given his high mobility. Diddy's f-air outranged/swatted down Sheik when she was empty hopping anyway, so I can't see the f-air nerf mattering either.

The d-throw nerf might matter if Sheik can't gimp Diddy, leading to a discrepancy in their KO power, but all of Sheik's offstage tools remain just as strong, which is where she really shined in the matchup previously, so it's tough to call without seeing the matchup in practice.

The matchup may in fact be even (or even in Diddy's favor!), but there's going to need to be some kind of actual evidence for that claim before you make it.

The nerfs have happened, take the salt like a man.

I'm quite happy that Sheik's been nerfed, so there's no salt. I've used more Diddy than Sheik in bracket historically and played the Diddy v Sheik matchup more from the Diddy side than from the Sheik side.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Zelda has an up b that can kill puff off the top at 50, punishing almost any careless mistake. Puff can do the same thing to zelda with rest tho. Also notice I said Zelda "probably" has the advantage now.(not sure how volatile the throw combo is so feel free to let me know) Not before. I don't see ganon getting any vast improvements on the matchup from the patch, besides jab. The Ganon mu overall is different because he can get an early kill but he needs a read and doesn't have an amazing punish out of shield like zelda does. His fair is frame 14. Every one of my aerials are faster than that, my air mobility is far superior so I can just weave back in and punish him for it. Fair was literally his worst aerial to give an example on. His best aerial in the puff mu imo is either up air (hits at the back) or bair. And if some disagree then they are definitely better than Ganon's fair. Nair is fine but that has only hit me out of a throw or ganon running off the edge and using nair. You also need to put puff's advantage of her offstage game into play. She can take ganon's stock just as early offstage as he can to puff onstage. Getting him off in my eyes isn't that difficult either. His frame data is not threatening at all outside of shorthop bair or upair. Where as puff has dash attack oos which sends him at a rather decent distance offstage at 80 for a gimp situation. (labbing all of this from the game itself to prevent false info) I just can't see this mu being as bad as ganon mains say. They both have enough advantages in their gameplay that lead me to believe that it's even. Also if you are going to put the fact she is lightweight in the situation then I guess kirby, game and watch, and rosa lose this mu. ;^ / Which in my eyes doesn't seem credible either.

Ganon isn't going to run at Puff and hit buttons. He's waiting for you to hit a button because Puff HAS TO and he has an answer to every one because of his incredible range in this matchup lol. Every single trade is unfavorable for Puff and all of Ganon's aerials kill and that's without Rage even being factored in.

Ganon's Jab just gives him a safe button to press in Neutral which he NEVER EVER had before (how TF is he bottom 10 again? This jab fixes a LARGE CRIPPLING problem Ganondorf had, and it even gives him additional missed tech followups on Choke vs. chars who couldn't be hit by Dtilt afterwards.)

I personally think Puff as a character is screwed by a lack of any sort of considerable disjoint on anything, moves that are unsafe on hit at low % that require you to basically be in their face to hit them with, and Rage turning everything into a kill move vs. this character.

I do actually think Ganon beats Puff because if he doesn't slap buttons he wins neutral.

 

[HFlash]

You can fight Falcon with fundamentals. I make it a general rule to rush on anyone fast than me. What you're looking at is strictly the advantage state here. Question is how often does Falcon get that against a smart Bowser?

How can Bowser rush down Captain Falcon? All of Bowser's aerials are pitifully un safe against Falcon, and trying to rush Falcon down is exactly what he wants. If Falcon is fox trotting, on reaction he can punish any of Bowser's whiffed moves (and from a good distance since Bowser's moves have particularly bad frame data). From experience (I haven't played the MU in tournament and there isn't high level footage of the MU so this is purely theoretical/anecdotal) Bowser caters perfectly to the bait and punish style Falcon would rather play. Falcon can literally fox trot around until Bowser messes up.

Also, Bowser can't maintain advantage as well due to Falcon having better landing options (primarily bair) nor does Boweser have Falcon's run speed to catch said landings. Additionally, how far a character can go off stage usually determines how well they can edgeguard. Falcon has a bad recovery, sure, but only characters who can go really off stage can take full advantage (think pikachu and shiek). Unlike Falcon, Bowser cannot and should not drop below stage for edge guards, whereas Falcon can always get the dair spike if Bowser is forced to recover low.

The only reason you could say that the MU is even now is because of Bowser's crazy reward off of grabs. Whether its +/- 0.5 either way, is irrelavant, but being -1 in Bowser's favor imo is the least plausible conclusion. In other words, if the MU isn't even (which it probably is) it's in Falcon's favor for sure.

 

[irokex13]

I enjoy this thread for being very informative for general info for smash 4, and I enjoy that people feel comfortable posting here, but the quality of the average post here has dropped. It is very apparent when a low/mid level player makes a post here, and while this thread is more than welcoming, it sorta becomes an issue when more and more low quality posts are made.

For example, there have been constant posts about Sheik and her placement after her nerfs. Thanks to the removal of her kill setup from grab, it seems that people have forgotten that her down throw 50/50 is not what made her the best character in the game. People seems to have forgotten about her overwhelming neutral game and advantage, her almost nonexistent disadvantaged state, and her numerous other kill setups, all bundled with some of the best mobility in the game. Many characters who lost to her before most likely STILL lose to her. If she loses to any character, that character is more than likely top tier anyway.

I thought this would be a thread to show what level of thinking needs to be used when evaluating MUs and the power of characters for high level play, hopefully leading mid level players such as myself to higher levels of play . But we can't become better players by clamoring for nerfs, complaining about top tiers, or feigning MU knowledge.

It is good when everyone feels free to share their opinion, but for this thread, it should be important that that opinion is well informed. Otherwise it's just really another Reddit thread.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Good to see the SB tradition of circle jerk underrating Roy is still a thing. That's cool though, an opinion is still an opinion, even if its a conglomerate of people stroking themselves. Bottom 10 is hilarious.

In fact if I'm being totally honest, I don't even see the point of talking about placements below the halfway mark at all. The characters have such muddy mu spreads that its pretty much meaningless. But don't let me rain on your parade, continue by all means.

"You guys are all stupid incorrect and circlejerking

Keep going though, don't let me ruin your fun"

If you think we're wrong why not provide some evidence instead of writing passive-aggressive fluff?
Why not tap into Roy's plethora of results---oh wait

 

[Kofu]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

Don't know how accurate this is. pic.twitter.com/Yh2XOt4fZ6

— Big Cat (@xBigCatx) March 19, 2016

There's no way Bowser has that much of an advantage on Game & Watch. He probably wins the matchup because it's so hard for Game & Watch to get in but Bowser gets juggled hilariously hard, and while edgeguarding him for a kill is difficult because of Whirling Fortress's trajectory, if we get Bowser offstage without his double jump we can basically stop Bowser from getting back to the stage by BAiring his recovery ad nauseum.

Side note, Bowser's FTilt has been great since Brawl. Possibly Melee, don't really know.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I enjoy this thread for being very informative for general info for smash 4, and I enjoy that people feel comfortable posting here, but the quality of the average post here has dropped. It is very apparent when a low/mid level player makes a post here, and while this thread is more than welcoming, it sorta becomes an issue when more and more low quality posts are made.

For example, there have been constant posts about Sheik and her placement after her nerfs. Thanks to the removal of her kill setup from grab, it seems that people have forgotten that her down throw 50/50 is not what made her the best character in the game. People seems to have forgotten about her overwhelming neutral game and advantage, her almost nonexistent disadvantaged state, and her numerous other kill setups, all bundled with some of the best mobility in the game. Many characters who lost to her before most likely STILL lose to her. If she loses to any character, that character is more than likely top tier anyway.

I thought this would be a thread to show what level of thinking needs to be used when evaluating MUs and the power of characters for high level play, hopefully leading mid level players such as myself to higher levels of play . But we can't become better players by clamoring for nerfs, complaining about top tiers, or feigning MU knowledge.

It is good when everyone feels free to share their opinion, but for this thread, it should be important that that opinion is well informed. Otherwise it's just really another Reddit thread.

Actually, and I'm going to be real because this is a statement not just echoed by myself, but a lot of what made Sheik undisputably #1 was the ability to kill you off of grabs. It was a tremendously safe option and confirm (I don't advocate or stand against patching it, so w/e) but even our best players that don't post in here talk about how big of a hit it was.

She has a ton of overwhelming advantages and can rack up damage but when you look at the rest of the top tier with their explosive kill options and ability to win with Rage alongside having usually amazing neutrals that aren't Sheik level but close-ish or comparable and you weigh that vs. her ability to take stocks NOW, then you start to realize it.

I won't disagree that she still wins a lot of matchups but her nerfs are actually REALLY REALLY significant and downplaying them is not something I can do because that's disingenuous. If I were to be honest, I think the biggest nerf is both the D-Throw and the Weight nerf which makes her EASIER TO COMBO btw (her disadvantage got worse because of this). Needles can no longer be used to camp as well as they used to but they're still really good, it's just far more dangerous to use when cornered, which is kinda the point.

 

[Diddy Kong]

yet all of this is just theory that you're spinning up and pasting onto a matchup chart. A matchup chart is meant (typically) to be a meaningful reflection of experiences and analysis. There has been no experience or analysis about how the matchup plays now at a high level. Right now your chart is literally saying (with regard to the Sheik MU), "take this statement at face value because I play this character and am a good judge of how balance changes will affect matchup dynamics."

For the actual theory, I have no idea why you think that Diddy beats Sheik onstage all of a sudden. The tools that allowed Sheik to compete with (and beat) Diddy are still in full swing; the Needle nerf matters a little, but Sheik never wanted to camp Diddy from long-range in the first place, and if she did it wasn't particularly difficult for Diddy to close the gap given his high mobility. Diddy's f-air outranged/swatted down Sheik when she was empty hopping anyway, so I can't see the f-air nerf mattering either.

The d-throw nerf might matter if Sheik can't gimp Diddy, leading to a discrepancy in their KO power, but all of Sheik's offstage tools remain just as strong, which is where she really shined in the matchup previously, so it's tough to call without seeing the matchup in practice.

The matchup may in fact be even (or even in Diddy's favor!), but there's going to need to be some kind of actual evidence for that claim before you make it.


I'm quite happy that Sheik's been nerfed, so there's no salt. I've used more Diddy than Sheik in bracket historically and played the Diddy v Sheik matchup more from the Diddy side than from the Sheik side.

Ohh well yeah I get what you are saying.. The chart popping up without proper Diddy discussion before might've been a bad idea, at least if I want to be taken seriously. But I've been throwing out my Diddy vs Sheik rants ever since the patch, and hoped my previous statements about that would've contributed to the chart's credibility. Guess it didn't work out that greatly, but theorycrafting about it -as you stated it- is pretty much the concept of this thread no? Thread updates fast, opinions are just opinions, sure, but I don't see my opinion holding less water than anyone else who posts here and is not a Top Player who attends / wins tournaments.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Actually, and I'm going to be real because this is a statement not just echoed by myself, but a lot of what made Sheik undisputably #1 was the ability to kill you off of grabs. It was a tremendously safe option and confirm (I don't advocate or stand against patching it, so w/e) but even our best players that don't post in here talk about how big of a hit it was.

She has a ton of overwhelming advantages and can rack up damage but when you look at the rest of the top tier with their explosive kill options and ability to win with Rage alongside having usually amazing neutrals that aren't Sheik level but close-ish or comparable and you weigh that vs. her ability to take stocks NOW, then you start to realize it.

I won't disagree that she still wins a lot of matchups but her nerfs are actually REALLY REALLY significant and downplaying them is not something I can do because that's disingenuous. If I were to be honest, I think the biggest nerf is both the D-Throw and the Weight nerf which makes her EASIER TO COMBO btw (her disadvantage got worse because of this). Needles can no longer be used to camp as well as they used to but they're still really good, it's just far more dangerous to use when cornered, which is kinda the point.

Definitely agree with this. When Luigi's kill confirm off grab went away he dropped from top 10 to top 20/25, and he still has the best grounded frame data and low-percent damage racking off grab in the game.

 

[Gawain]

"You guys are all stupid incorrect and circlejerking

Keep going though, don't let me ruin your fun"

If you think we're wrong why not provide some evidence instead of writing passive-aggressive fluff?
Why not tap into Roy's plethora of results---oh wait

Already done champ. Just go back about 3 months in posts. Take your results and shove em, because if that's all you care about you should only be yakking about roughly 20 characters. You sound the same as countless others and I won't post any more walls of text for you guys who are stuck in your thoughts.

 

[Deleted member]

Already done champ. Just go back about 3 months in posts. Take your results and shove em, because if that's all you care about you should only be yakking about roughly 20 characters. You sound the same as countless others and I won't post any more walls of text for you guys who are stuck in your thoughts.

Then don't post in this thread and be so needlessly passive-aggresive just because we (and many other top players outside of this thread) don't think highly of your main.

We also gave reasons besides his lack of results why Roy simply isn't a good character. If you're not acknowledging that, then that's all on you.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I would like to be convinced Roy is good but in the words of Shakespeare, one of the greatest literary minds of all time, there's just one thing I need.

As Othello once said, "Give me the ocular proof."

I want to see, not hear, why the character is good. I have not been able to do the former so far on a very high scale or frequency, so you'll have to pardon my skepticism.

It would be a lot different if Roy was still new, but he's been here for quite some time. I won't even delve into semantics about his tier placement, but I just don't see him as a very strong character regardless of where he is or what number has been given to him by the divine.

I don't think being passive aggressive is convincing me of anything besides the lack of ocular proof that I have been given, however. I'm not afraid of being wrong about him, but I just don't think he....well, works, so to speak. The landing lag buff was huge Quality of Life but it seemingly improved what was already okay (except for Dair LOL it needed that)

 

[Lavani]

Definitely agree with this. When Luigi's kill confirm off grab went away he dropped from top 10 to top 20/25, and he still has the best grounded frame data and low-percent damage racking off grab in the game.

The difference is when Luigi lost his kill confirm off grab, his kill methods became "fish for a smash or wait till 150%+", with the latter also being worse than before due to weaker damage racking at higher percents.

Sheik is less threatening when she grabs you at kill percent, but she can still weak nair>BF your ledge options, needle>BF you offstage, uair you off ftilts...even if her throw 50/50s are gone, her grabs still put you in the air and she takes much less risk going for a uair than Luigi did going for Cyclone. Worst case scenario she safely chips you to 180% until ftilt or fair kill, just like before.

 

[NairWizard]

Ohh well yeah I get what you are saying.. The chart popping up without proper Diddy discussion before might've been a bad idea, at least if I want to be taken seriously. But I've been throwing out my Diddy vs Sheik rants ever since the patch, and hoped my previous statements about that would've contributed to the chart's credibility. Guess it didn't work out that greatly, but theorycrafting about it -as you stated it- is pretty much the concept of this thread no? Thread updates fast, opinions are just opinions, sure, but I don't see my opinion holding less water than anyone else who posts here and is not a Top Player who attends / wins tournaments.

I agree with you that your opinion matters.

For the record, I do think that people who get tournament experience in high-level matchups hold more relevant opinions simply because they get more of an opportunity to see how the theory is put into practice. I would trust Dabuz over most non-tourney-going Rosalina players for instance on his opinion on a matchup, although I certainly wouldn't take it at face value.

But that isn't my point.

I just think that this thread has been uncharacteristically weak lately in terms of supporting arguments and MU charts with evidence.

Anyone can have an opinion. All of us have them. That doesn't mean that we want to read every single person's opinion. How many people honestly care whether or not I think that Pikachu-Sheik is 40:60 or 50:50 now? No one. I am not ESAM and won't be.

But if I can point to high-level sets and identify instances where Pikachu is doing better against Sheik now compared to before, or if I can bring to the table some specific situations in which Pikachu does better now (e.g., Sheik's f-air used to outrange Pika in the air, now up-air cleanly beats it at certain angles, or something like that), that's a decent argument for reconsidering the matchup ratio and might be worth reading about.

I am bringing this up not to target you directly (I am sure that you have a wealth of experience playing Diddy against Sheiks since release and can share some of your tips in the MU that might be very helpful to everyone, in fact, and I encourage you to do so), but because I care about this thread and I share the sentiment with some others that the overall quality is decreasing. One-liners and jokes are fine and they are totally refreshing when they are in good taste. But unsubstantiated claims and opinions are starting to appear too frequently, and I believe that they reduce the value of the thread. MU charts are notorious for doing this because they just contain so many unsubstantiated opinions in a single post, and MU charts right after a big patch drops are a big red flag.

This should be a thread that people can learn from, or at least can derive different perspectives from. I should be able to read this thread and go, "Hm, I hadn't thought of that!" or "That's a good argument, maybe I should reconsider my perspective on this." For instance if Megamang or Nobie post that Mewtwo's short hop air dodge to f-air is a good shield pressure tool and therefore he's comparatively better against shields than other characters around his tier placing, that is a good argument that compels me to reconsider my stance on Mewtwo. It's worth reading and thinking about.

This is the only thread I care to post in on smashboards, otherwise I wouldn't even have a smashboards account, because historically this thread has been the one place where competitive standards actually matter, and unique perspectives are valued. I hope we can keep it that way.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Already done champ. Just go back about 3 months in posts. Take your results and shove em, because if that's all you care about you should only be yakking about roughly 20 characters. You sound the same as countless others and I won't post any more walls of text for you guys who are stuck in your thoughts.

Having made quality posts in the past does not absolve you of the responsibility to contribute new things to the thread. As for the rest of your post, just....what? Citing results as evidence a character is not good does not equate to only discussing the very best. It's reasonable to say Roy's complete lack of tournament performance proves he isn't good when most characters have at least one or two strong showings or players to back them up. The only characters that don't do well on a national scale or on a regional scale in strong regions are , maybe depending on what your perception of good results is, and surprise surprise:.

What does "stuck in your thoughts" even mean? If anything it seems you would support people judging based on their own thoughts, since concrete evidence is not a priority of yours.

 

[Das Koopa]

Olimar, Palutena, and Robin all do better at a regional level. The only top for Roy I can find in 2016 is 7th at an Avalon tourney with a lot of unknowns.

 

[Y2Kay]

Olimar, Palutena, and Robin all do better at a regional level. The only top for Roy I can find in 2016 is 7th at an Avalon tourney with a lot of unknowns.

Are you sure about Olimar?

His representation is among the worst in the game, I bet it's worst than Roy's.

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar, Palutena, and Robin all do better at a regional level. The only top for Roy I can find in 2016 is 7th at an Avalon tourney with a lot of unknowns.

Not to mention all three of those characters have a top player here in Florida. Prince Ramen for (I'm convinced that if Ramen started competing in majors and traveling outside Florida, he could legit make ripples for the Palutena meta. He is insane.), Myran for and Dath for .

F L O R I D A B O Y Z

Real talk though, Roy is left with... Sethlon? StaticManny only seems to focus on Sonic nowadays and I've only seen Neo mostly pull out Sheik when it matters.

 

[Thinkaman]

Finally back from GDC. Random thoughts before I collapse:

• This patch was absolutely incredible. It was literally like, half of the exact changes on my dream list.
• Exactly my dream Sheik nerfs, exactly.
  • Yeah, the 50/50 really was the biggest issue, due to how it invalidated weaknesses in her design.
• Also my dream Ganon buffs; 15% ground wizkick for beating projectiles was my single favorite change in BBrawl.
• Also my dream MK changes, right down to the SDI ratio.
• The fact that we're debating who's the best is great. I guess I'd put my money on Cloud if I had to, but I feel like it could be any of
• The Cloud nerf to Limit Break manual charge-speed specifically is being mathematically underrated due to the fact that Cloud achieves Limit Charge on a linear offset. I'll post more on this later.
• Why is Mario being overlooked? It's a beautiful day for him, and he was already winning a ton at all levels just short of the tip-top.
• Further down, the abolition of dominant Sheik is disproportionately good imo for .
• The removal of extreme MK jank is disproportionately good for , though those matchups are probably still awful.
• Not sold on the Zelda buffs, but we'll see.
• Palutena on the other hand, I'm comfortable feeling pessimistic about.
• I'm still (relatively) bullish on Jigglypuff. Rest is just too good to ignore. SHAD Rest is way too good to ignore.
• I find myself increasingly apathetic towards (and irritated with) discussion of "bottom X" rankings.
• When you reach the point where people are arguing over whether Roy and Bowser Jr. are "bottom" or not, everything has officially lost all meaning.

 

[Das Koopa]

ImHip (5th, Duck Hunt Secondary) (2GGT The False Awakens)
Angbad (13th) (2GGT The False Awakens)
TNF Douglas (13th) (2GGT EE Saga)
Myrian (7th) (TNS6)
Krow (13th) (Landlocked)

Olimar has passable results

 

[Deleted member]

Are you sure about Olimar?

His representation is among the worst in the game, I bet it's worst than Roy's.

...Is this a joke?

Even tho' Rich Brown dropped him, he still has Myran, GreenBeast, imHip and Angbad repping him still.

EDIT: Oops, post above me explained already.

 

[ARGHETH]

Already done champ. Just go back about 3 months in posts. Take your results and shove em, because if that's all you care about you should only be yakking about roughly 20 characters. You sound the same as countless others and I won't post any more walls of text for you guys who are stuck in your thoughts.

Your last Roy argument was actually in the v2 thread back in October. Considering 1.1.4 happened I don't really think it's relevant now.