Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

Wario wasn't nerfed in 1.1.5, right? His fade out of relevancy and viability has no bearing on the Wario-Pacman matchup.

It doesn't help the matchup of course, but it makes it much less of a problem in the current meta.

One of Pacman's worst matchups will rarely happen.

 

[juddy96]

Another hidden gem, ARFI #12 is going on right now in Texas and it's stacked. Keep up with the bracket here http://austinsmash4.challonge.com/arfi12

 

[Y2Kay]

Trela is off hiatus? Cool!

 

[MistressRemilia]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

Don't know how accurate this is. pic.twitter.com/Yh2XOt4fZ6

— Big Cat (@xBigCatx) March 19, 2016

> Mario & Luigi are both -1
> Doc is +2
I would gladly answer the question you raised on Twitter, but i think by now you should be aware of your mistake.

 

[Jams.]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

Don't know how accurate this is. pic.twitter.com/Yh2XOt4fZ6

— Big Cat (@xBigCatx) March 19, 2016

I don't see how vs is only -1. How does Bowser ever reset to neutral in this MU? From my experience this MU is much, much easier than ROB vs Bowser, which you also listed as -1.

 

[Das Koopa]

Euugghhh this Mac is trash. He's not even trying to get in on this Toon Link. He's just rolling and smash attacking, was spamming aerials on Dream Land.

Edit: Oh my god he literally Side B'd off stage that was like Day 1 3DS Little Mac-tier intelligence

 

[Wintermelon43]

Euugghhh this Mac is trash. He's not even trying to get in on this Toon Link. He's just rolling and smash attacking, was spamming aerials on Dream Land.

Edit: Oh my god he literally Side B'd off stage that was like Day 1 3DS Little Mac-tier intelligence

Sol actually did that (Side-B off the ledge) on stream at Come to Papa.

 

[C0rvus]

Wario out here struggling. Come on, Reflex. Bring it back!

Edit: That bomb kill was spicy af

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you're thinking of the 4BR 1.0 definition of "High tier" then yeah, he is overrating. Acording to the tier list he should be mid tier. But This was skewed because the smash 4 back room felt that deserved their own tier, so these three where the only ones considered top tier. Now with these nerfs, I think it is fair to assume that they aren't any special snowflakes any more.

I assume that high tiers where characters like this:

mewtwo being on par with them isn't a stretch right?

I was going with the 4 BR metrics yes. Now that we have an official tier list, that's the one I'm the most interested in. Importantly, Sheik and ZSS got nerfed yes... but Rosalina didn't (indirectly buffed if anything due to Sheik and ZSS nerfs). And people consider Bayo just as good. We could very well end up with a 2 character top tier from the next 4BR Tier List.

Likewise, even if we're going by my metrics... I wouldn't be considering Robin, Luigi, or Olimar to be high tier at all. Ike, Peach, and ROB really depend on the day if I consider them bottom of high tier or top of mid tier. The only "shoe-ins" for high tier from that list you gave me would be Greninja (lol buffs), the Pits, probably Falcon and probably Toon Link. The rest are all very questionable. And I don't consider Mewtwo to be on par with Greninja or the Pits.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't see how vs is only -1. How does Bowser ever reset to neutral in this MU? From my experience this MU is much, much easier than ROB vs Bowser, which you also listed as -1.

Personally, I'm not scared of many matchups. I'm only really scared of for different reasons. That would affect my bias in this list.

When it comes to I just try to make the disadvantage state irrelevant. Just focus on Luma in neutral and wreck after. To be fair, the Rosa players here are... How do I say this without causing scene drama? Are substandard compared to the likes of Dabuz.

 

[Tri Knight]

@ "Mewtwo is high tier" claims.

Just look at the current tier list. Look who is in mid tier. We have character(s) who have placed top 8 at internationals in there (Ike, MegaMan, Pac-Man IIRC and possibly Falcon? I don't really remember the earlier ones well), we have characters who are complete terrors in certain regions (Pit/Dark Pit, Toon Link, Luigi) and other characters that have had excellent showings at massive tournaments (DK).

If multiple characters can place top 8 at an international and still be E tier by the SSB4 BR criteria there is no way Mewtwo is reaching tier high. Not even a remote chance. Most of us agree that mid tier itself is a bit of a mess that needs to be reorganized, but Mewtwo is joining their ranks and its not due to stigma or previous bias. The bar for high tier in this game is simply that high, and its a bar Mewtwo hasn't reach and most likely can never reach.

Its great that your character got buffed a whole bunch. Makes them a lot more fun to use and they're certainly a lot more viable. But you gotta take a dose of reality with it as well. Take it from a main of arguably the one character who got buffed more overall throughout the game than Mewtwo in terms of tier placement. And hey, if mid tier can make noise at freaking internationals that's not a bad place to be.

I agree. I mean there was a currently listed LOW tier that was just one place shy of being in top 8. Things like that matter.

 

[Y2Kay]

ayy lmao

I'm pretty sure Umeki is on Sakurai's Hit List now

 

[Bobert]

Is Roy potentially a bottom 10 character right now if we're not counting Miis?

 

[RDR7]

Someone is gotta be Bottom 5 indeed, and really does fit the fill. He's got a slow and predictable projectile, he's combo food, no moves really link into each other, he cannot be on the defensive at all whilst his offense is lackluster, he's real laggy and not all too mobile outside of Side B and he pretty much has bad matchups all over the cast.

As for absolute worst character, I say is gotta be it now. was pretty horrible before, but with her new D Throw U Air Hoo-Hah she ****s all over Jigglypuff's existance, making the matchup in her favor. She probably has the worst Match Up spread of the cast, as she likely loses to indiviuals as for example. Does she actually go even with anyone?

If I got to vote for a Bottom 5, I'd say it's .

No she doesn't lose those matchups. Zelda probably now because it was even before. Ganon is not a terrible matchup I don't know where everyone is getting that from. If anything that mu is overall even to me and I have discussed it before to adom. (no response) She goes even with Falcon (probably wins), Ganon, Shulk, Kirby, Robin(some robin mains say she wins need to play some of the better ones), Bowser jr. (probably wins) and Mac. Might be more don't feel like thinking about it.
:^ )
She is one of the most underdeveloped characters in the game so misconceptions are all over the place about her. Like people putting her +2 or +1 on their matchup charts when I think that's ridiculous for some characters. Especially GANONDORF LMFAO.

 

[Nobie]

Greninja has mixup and combos and a good neutral but has trouble with shields. The same can be said of Toon Link.

You know who doesn't have trouble with Shields? Mewtwo.

You know what else Mewtwo can do? Rack up damage from anywhere and kill from anywhere, and it doesn't require fancy combos or obscure tricks. Get a slight read on an opponent, fair. Catch them rolling back, Shadow Ball. Bad tech? Up smash. Disable. Up throw. Back throw. Etc. Etc. And many of these aren't slow or unreliable.

 

[C0rvus]

Yes Roy is low tier, if you ask me and many others.
Poor design + lack of results = low tier in my book

 

[adom4]

No she doesn't lose those matchups. Zelda probably now because it was even before. Ganon is not a terrible matchup I don't know where everyone is getting that from. If anything that mu is overall even to me and I have discussed it before to adom. (no response) She goes even with Falcon (probably wins), Ganon, Shulk, Kirby, Robin(some robin mains say she wins need to play some of the better ones), Bowser jr. (probably wins) and Mac. Might be more don't feel like thinking about it.
:^ )
She is one of the most underdeveloped characters in the game so misconceptions are all over the place about her. Like people putting her +2 or +1 on their matchup charts when I think that's ridiculous for some characters. Especially GANONDORF LMFAO.

Zelda is easy for Ganon until you realize how good her Dair is.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No she doesn't lose those matchups. Zelda probably now because it was even before. Ganon is not a terrible matchup I don't know where everyone is getting that from. If anything that mu is overall even to me and I have discussed it before to adom. (no response) She goes even with Falcon (probably wins), Ganon, Shulk, Kirby, Robin(some robin mains say she wins need to play some of the better ones), Bowser jr. (probably wins) and Mac. Might be more don't feel like thinking about it.
:^ )
She is one of the most underdeveloped characters in the game so misconceptions are all over the place about her. Like people putting her +2 or +1 on their matchup charts when I think that's ridiculous for some characters. Especially GANONDORF LMFAO.

Ganondorf literally has to land like, 2 or 3 hits on her to kill Jigglypuff. His range also should be a problem, especially since Jab is now much faster. I think Ganondorf has the advantage because of that. Also his F Air probably has far more priority than anything she can pull. He can effectively keep her at bay. And if Zelda already has an advantage over Jigglypuff, why wouldn't Ganondorf?

 

[Deleted member]

Yes Roy is low tier, if you ask me and many others.
Poor design + lack of results = low tier in my book

Hell, the "well he's DLC so his metagame development will be slow" excuse doesn't hold water anymore. Literally every other DLC character has done more than him in a shorter timespan, obviously pointing at and . has had more rep and metagame advancements than him as well, despite being considered low/bottom tier by many for so long until 1.1.3.

 

[bc1910]

How does Greninja have trouble with shields? Uthrow combos until ~60% then allows for 50/50s until around 90%. Uthrow starts killing midweights at around 160% with no rage. For the percents in between, Dthrow sets up 50/50s with Fair (which can kill), Bthrow racks up damage and Fthrow puts them in a horrible position if they DI away because they expected Dthrow. He also has a bunch of safe on shield pokes including Fair, Bair and Ftilt, with Fair in particular dealing good shield damage.

Toon Link doesn't really have trouble with shields either considering his barrage of projectiles will still be forcing the approach. Powershielding bombs doesn't work well since to the best of my knowledge it leaves their explosion timer active, while shielding Boomerang can give him time to run in if he wants to.

Mewtwo also has good options against shield, but that doesn't make these two (particularly Greninja) bad against them.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can actually shield pressure really well, charged shuriken is a legit frame trap if someone is caught shielding it if I remember right

His only problem is bad OoS and slightly poor frame data, otherwise he's great at pretty much everything else.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I might as well post this with all the MU charts posted. I can't say this is completely accurate, but I do believe Bowser has one of the more balanced MU spreads in the game.

Don't know how accurate this is. pic.twitter.com/Yh2XOt4fZ6

— Big Cat (@xBigCatx) March 19, 2016

Not to be rude but am not seeing Bowser having an advantage over Ike. And Bowser also doesn't just lose matchups with -1, he gets -2'd by pretty much all of the Top Tiers. Captain Falcon and Link also definitely beat Bowser I feel. Even tho Bowser has been buffed, am just not seeing these things happening... At all. It probably holds a lot more water as a Bowser main, or if it's viewed from the prespective of a Bowser main. I like the optimism, but Bowser is still... Actually pretty bad.

Speaking, where can I find a template to make these? I'd be interessted in making a Diddy MU Chart. And I'd love to see charts from other Diddy mains, and charts from DK, Ike and Mewtwo would be interessting to.

 

[C0rvus]

Ganon has always been one of Puff's best matchups, but Puff is also one of Ganon's best matchups. Probably more in Ganon's favor now because he just got quite a bit better, but Puff has always been able to play her game against Ganon. She can really body him offstage, she can kinda float around and air dodge camp and be a little **** until Ganon commits.

Also she can crouch under Wiz Kick and rest it on reaction, so that's a thing.

But yeah Ganon hits her thrice and it's lights out. Both characters have to really careful or they get pooped on.

 

[Deleted member]

Not to be rude but am not seeing Bowser having an advantage over Ike. And Bowser also doesn't just lose matchups with -1, he gets -2'd by pretty much all of the Top Tiers. Captain Falcon and Link also definitely beat Bowser I feel. Even tho Bowser has been buffed, am just not seeing these things happening... At all. It probably holds a lot more water as a Bowser main, or if it's viewed from the prespective of a Bowser main. I like the optimism, but Bowser is still... Actually pretty bad.

Speaking, where can I find a template to make these? I'd be interessted in making a Diddy MU Chart. And I'd love to see charts from other Diddy mains, and charts from DK, Ike and Mewtwo would be interessting to.

You can make one here.

Keep in mind that MU charts/tier lists are a yellow topic, so it's best to not have more than one per page.

Ganon has always been one of Puff's best matchups, but Puff is also one of Ganon's best matchups. Probably more in Ganon's favor now because he just got quite a bit better, but Puff has always been able to play her game against Ganon. She can really body him offstage, she can kinda float around and air dodge camp and be a little **** until Ganon commits.

Also she can crouch under Wiz Kick and rest it on reaction, so that's a thing.

But yeah Ganon hits her thrice and it's lights out. Both characters have to really careful or they get pooped on.

I really like how you view the matchup, you're completely right. We need more people like you that aren't so one-sided when it comes to MUs and acknowledge each characters strengths and weaknesses and how their tools matter at a high level.

 

[BunbUn129]

Is Roy potentially a bottom 10 character right now if we're not counting Miis?

That's very believable. Roy's theory is bad, and his lack of results back that up. While his advantage state is decent, his neutral is mediocre and his disadvantage is just...abysmal, and this means that he gets punished harder than he can punish (sound familiar? only is way better). I find it funny that ZeRo once said Roy was a potential high tier and best sword character. Then soon rose up, got buffed, soon followed by , and then happened. 3 of them have just been nerfed, and yet Roy is still completely overshadowed by them.

.......

About Meta Knight's current standing and how the future looks, let's see what he has going for him:

1) strong neutral: speed, disjoints, multiple jumps, and the new fair buff allows him to mix-up his approach better. Of course, no projectile is still an issue.

2) damage racking: even with the up air nerf, this is still one of his best traits. Low % combos have been unaffected, mid % combos still work (but no longer kill like they used to). Dash attack, d tilt, three of his throws, and uair are all great combo moves.

3) KOing: Meta Knight does not lack KO set-ups. DA -> uair -> SL and DA-> SL are still very viable. Edge-guarding is excellent: four aerials that are reliable finishers offstage and are easy to land. F smash is safe, usmash is effective for punishing short-hops and landings, and SL by itself is scary. Up and back throws also act as useful stock-caps.

4) disadvantage: five jumps and the Cape give him great resilience against juggling, and his recovery is near-untouchable.

Note on up air combos: I've done them myself, I've tested against a few different DI angles (DI away, DI down, and DI down and away).

-Tyrant said on his twitter: "Had some good mk practice today. got his old combo a few times but having to switch it up has been a fun experience! I'll show a clip 2marro," and "he's pretty much the same though just gotta know your percents when you're uairing people. There's still all kinds of conversions"

-Ito and Jband have pulled off the combo in tournament.

It's pretty difficult to understand the true extent of the nerfs, tbh. I'm really interested to see where his meta goes. There are two scenarios: if up air combos are still a real threat even with proper DI and SDI, then this patch has been wonderful for MK, because he no longer has to deal with 's bull****, while still essentially retaining his strengths. In this case, he's still a top 5 character (and maybe top 3).

In another scenario, if people invalidate it with proper SDI, I don't see MK falling past top 15, though I still think he will contend for top 10. The fact that are still capable of ladders should be a good sign for MK.

It's also probably worth noting that most people never learned to DI the old ladder properly over the course of more than a year, so I won't be surprised if it continues to work based solely on that.

Either way, the current state of MK's meta leaves me both worried and excited.

 

[Y2Kay]

@Emblem Lord are you don't stuffing your face with pizza? I want to hear your take on

 

[sedrf]

why hasn't roy been buffed much

 

[adom4]

Ganon has always been one of Puff's best matchups, but Puff is also one of Ganon's best matchups. Probably more in Ganon's favor now because he just got quite a bit better, but Puff has always been able to play her game against Ganon. She can really body him offstage, she can kinda float around and air dodge camp and be a little **** until Ganon commits.

Also she can crouch under Wiz Kick and rest it on reaction, so that's a thing.

But yeah Ganon hits her thrice and it's lights out. Both characters have to really careful or they get pooped on.

Puff was never hard for Ganon, you say she can airdodge camp us but why would we approach in the first place?
It's obviously not free because she edgeguards us rather well but even then it's nowhere near as bad as Bayonetta, Pikachu, Villager or even against other Ganons.

 

[Rizen]

Captain Falcon and Link also definitely beat Bowser I feel. Even tho Bowser has been buffed, am just not seeing these things happening... At all.

Agreed.

 

[Deleted member]

why hasn't roy been buffed much

Because nobody plays him. Guess it's hard to figure out when you barely have any tourney footage to base off of. That and he's still common in low level play and FG and whatnot, so yeah.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not to be rude but am not seeing Bowser having an advantage over Ike. And Bowser also doesn't just lose matchups with -1, he gets -2'd by pretty much all of the Top Tiers. Captain Falcon and Link also definitely beat Bowser I feel. Even tho Bowser has been buffed, am just not seeing these things happening... At all. It probably holds a lot more water as a Bowser main, or if it's viewed from the prespective of a Bowser main. I like the optimism, but Bowser is still... Actually pretty bad.

Speaking, where can I find a template to make these? I'd be interessted in making a Diddy MU Chart. And I'd love to see charts from other Diddy mains, and charts from DK, Ike and Mewtwo would be interessting to.

Just focusing on the top tiers, They've been toned down considerably, and if it were not for that AND Bowser's 1.1.3 buff then I'd be inclined to agree they're -2. There matchups become -1 at worst when you realize you can't bum rush them. In fact, most of the top tiers minus Rosalina thrive on offensive pressure. Being conservative with your buttons is the name of the game for Bowser.

Prior to this recent patch, Zamus, Sheik, and MK were Bowser's biggest issues. Sheik was safe on everything with a lot of reward. Zamus and MK's Stairway To Heaven combos just made Bowser's life a nightmare in those MU's. Sheik's reward and 50/50 options have now been drastically reduced. Zamus' combos don't connect reliably and her NAir nerf means she can't just jump in as she pleases. MK's change basically saved every big guy on the roster. If you've got the MK Discord saying that MU is now even, then you know how serious that nerf is.

 

[BunbUn129]

why hasn't roy been buffed much

Devs take FG stats as their primary source. Roy is obnoxious on FG. FG is the reason has unfortunately been nerfed.

 

[Y2Kay]

Zero said in his video that he blieves that roy needs a good grab game so his opponents will shield less, and his distinct sweet spots will be more useful.

I kinda agree.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Roy is just being Roy.. he got some moveset tweaks that made him more viable, and like Mewtwo, more "extreme" in his strenghts and flaws. Now people got used to his new moveset, he just goes back being Roy again. No, a promotion doesn't work if your Sword only has 20 uses. Worst FE Lord. /half joke post

 

[HFlash]

Big-Cat How does Bowser beat Falcon? Falcon gets one dthrow combo on Bowser, and it's just so easy to keep him off stage particularly on FD. That, and Bowser has a really hard time recovering vs falcon from anywhere except way above stage. Falcon has full reign to play his game (due to Bowser not having a real projectile) and doesn't get abused off stage.

Zero said in his video that he blieves that roy needs a good grab game so his opponents will shield less, and his distinct sweet spots will be more useful.

I kinda agree.

But he does have a grab game? It's the kind of grab game that Marth would die for, and the lack thereof is what is stopping Marth from being a high tier character.

 

[Nobie]

How does Greninja have trouble with shields? Uthrow combos until ~60% then allows for 50/50s until around 90%. Uthrow starts killing midweights at around 160% with no rage. For the percents in between, Dthrow sets up 50/50s with Fair (which can kill), Bthrow racks up damage and Fthrow puts them in a horrible position if they DI away because they expected Dthrow. He also has a bunch of safe on shield pokes including Fair, Bair and Ftilt, with Fair in particular dealing good shield damage.

Toon Link doesn't really have trouble with shields either considering his barrage of projectiles will still be forcing the approach. Powershielding bombs doesn't work well since to the best of my knowledge it leaves their explosion timer active, while shielding Boomerang can give him time to run in if he wants to.

Mewtwo also has good options against shield, but that doesn't make these two (particularly Greninja) bad against them.

You mentioned all of these elaborate shield pressure tools with Toon Link, and all of these combos off of grab with Greninja. They all require elaborate and intricate understandings of Greninja and Toon Link, and heavily involve just a lot of complex elements.

Mewtwo, in contrast, simply has "grab (not tether grab), kill." And having that threat is what Mewtwo has more in common with Ness than Greninja or Toon Link.

 

[BunbUn129]

Big-Cat How does Bowser beat Falcon? Falcon gets one dthrow combo on Bowser, and it's just so easy to keep him off stage particularly on FD. That, and Bowser has a really hard time recovering vs falcon from anywhere except way above stage. Falcon has full reign to play his game (due to Bowser not having a real projectile) and doesn't get abused off stage.




But he does have a grab game? It's the kind of grab game that Marth would die for, and the lack thereof is what is stopping Marth from being a high tier character.

Roy doesn't have a good grab game, or at least it isn't that much better than Marth's. Past low % basic DI and teching negate true follow-ups and enforce reads. Down throw has too little hitstun (some characters with frame 3 nairs can actually stuff Roy's follow-up, lol). It isn't that much better than Marth's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Marth's up throw kills earlier than Roy's as well.

Marth isn't high tier for a number of reasons, with his grab game only being one of them.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Devs take FG stats as their primary source. Roy is obnoxious on FG. FG is the reason has unfortunately been nerfed.

No he isn't. Roy requires good spacing and effective use of all his tools to be effective in the neutral, something that for glory simply doesn't allow due to lag making it much harder for him to properly space his moves and perform his combos. Lag also prevents Roy from making use of his decent edgeguard game since it can screw up imputs and get Roy killed very early. I don't think roy is bad in normal play like most of the community does, but on wifi I can safely call him a bottom 15 character.

 

[Deleted member]

...Roy has a good edgeguarding game? That's news to me. It's a very risky investment to go offstage for him considering his high gravity and fall speed, along with a poor recovery.

 

[BunbUn129]

No he isn't. Roy requires good spacing and effective use of all his tools to be effective in the neutral, something that for glory simply doesn't allow due to lag making it much harder for him to properly space his moves and perform his combos. Lag also prevents Roy from making use of his decent edgeguard game since it can screw up imputs and get Roy killed very early. I don't think roy is bad in normal play like most of the community does, but on wifi I can safely call him a bottom 15 character.

Lag also prevents you from avoiding Roy's moves and punishing them. Roy online is annoying and unnecessarily difficult to fight because he can get away with so many things. But Roy offline is a complete joke.