Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Alright, I'll bite. Why shouldn't Roy be low tier? With the last tier list, he was at the top of low tier despite a lack of results and most people struggling to think of one noteworthy Roy player. I'm pretty sure is better than him at this point and characters like have better placings too. With the way things have been going as of late, he's definitely not better than . I have a hard time seeing Roy escaping low tier anytime soon.

ok imma get back to you on this cuz i need to shove sum pizza in my face. But look at his mobility, punish game and set-ups. Overal his frame data is solid as are his mobility specs. He only lacks in disadvantage.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's OK. Between Mewtwo buffs last patch, iStudying taking names, and Gren & Mewtwo buffs this patch, I imagine you're having the best month ever.

On topic: do you think Mewtwo beats Cloud? Mewtwo's edgeguarding is top notch, and his neutral ain't shabby. M2K fell to Mew^2 hard so the theory isn't totally wack.

Also: who are Greninja's bad MUs? I'm thinking this will become relevant to my interests in the near future. If his f-air is safe on block, he looks like he's becoming the new Sheik.

Greninja's toughest matchups are indeed Fox, Sheik, Sonic, and Cloud like @FullMoon stated, but as of now, all of them are winnable, and are definitely subject to change (Specifically Cloud and Fox) Diddy and Pikachu are considered tough by some, but we have contradicting evidence now thanks to istudying.

I'm....not sure about that cloud matchup. On paper it should be terribad, but Mew^2 really had a well designed gameplan to exploit Cloud's recovery specifically. And I haven't seen any Cloud's generate an answer to this playstyle yet.......so we will see.

I don't think it's too ridiculous to leave the matchup at even for now.

 

[sedrf]

@anti
New top 5 in order

- Bayonetta
- Cloud
- Rosalina
- Sonic
- Sheik

so anti made a list.
I don't think you should make a tier list too early,but what ever.

 

[Amadeus9]

Sheik in top 5. GTAB

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, there seems to be a general consensus that ZSS got absolutely destroyed by the latest patch. Any ZSS players want to weigh in with their experiences on this? People have been talking an awful lot about Sheik's changes but I haven't heard a lot about the aftermath of ZSS's nerfs yet.

 

[Locke 06]

The other thing loss of weight does is increase her frame disadvantage when getting thrown by weight dependent throws.

#interestingbalancedecisions

 

[BunbUn129]

He only lacks in disadvantage.

That's precisely the biggest reason why Roy is low-tier. Little Mac was bottom 15 for the same reason. Roy's neutral is mediocre despite his mobility; mobility does not win you neutral if the majority of your moves are unsafe. Mobility does not win neutral; mobility simply allows you to take advantage of your tools and options, and Roy's limited tools and options are why his mobility does not mean much at all.

Ike's neutral is better despite his slower speed and frame data, because he can safely space with his aerials. MK's neutral is far better despite being slower in every mobility spec and having shorter range (MK's range is actually longer relative to his size, though), because MK has the frame data to cross you up (DA) and poke (dair, fair, dtilt) and bait (f-smash).

Roy's advantage state is decent. Good low % combos, but past that, it becomes difficult because his throw set-ups are ruined by DI and teching, forcing him to rely on jab and nair, the latter of which happens to be his main approach tool and is thus predictable. Also decent at juggling, because uair is strong and has 7 active frames, and nair is good for punishing air dodges.

However, the big one that makes Roy trash: disadvantage. Imagine Little Mac with higher weight that made him even more susceptible to combos, and while Roy's recovery gives more distance thanks to his air speed, he has only one recovery option, unlike Mac, and that recovery options is decent horizontally and sad vertically. Considering most of Roy's moves are punishable, you're going to get plenty of opportunities to punish him. He's still, IMO, hard-countered by even after the nerfs to the latter 5. In the vs MU, Roy gets up aired to death like it's Melee, and he can't do much to avoid a bair that sends him into a recovery situation.

is essentially with a more limited neutral and combos, but with an even worse recovery. Falcon is considered upper-mid tier/low-high tier and he's struggling.

 

[Asdioh]

Is it fair to say that Nerfed Sheik is in a very similar boat, and probably very close on a hypothetical tier list, to Nerfed Sonic now? Both are great in neutral, with some decent combos, juggling/landing trap potential, great recoveries, and ways to get out of disadvantage, but both struggle pretty hard to net KOs now.

Might be an unpopular opinion right here right now, but I want to say that I think Cloud has been overhyped the past week or so in this thread. He's certainly amazing, but I'm not convinced he's in his own tier, and I'm not sure if he's #1 or #2, though it's hard to say right now because of all the balance changes that just happened. Still, when my opponent picks Cloud, I don't think "oh no they picked the best character in the game." He doesn't seem as overwhelming in neutral as some would have you believe, and his disadvantage state is very, very real.

 

[Locuan]

So, there seems to be a general consensus that ZSS got absolutely destroyed by the latest patch. Any ZSS players want to weigh in with their experiences on this? People have been talking an awful lot about Sheik's changes but I haven't heard a lot about the aftermath of ZSS's nerfs yet.

Is this what people are really concluding about ZSS? I'd like to see were people have stated that. It goes against what I have been experiencing in testing/etc. I spent last night playing against my doubles team mate (ZSS main) and ZSS can basically perform the same things she did before for the most part, she just doesn't kill at the same percents. She still has her incredibly strong options, which still make her a top character imo.

Full VOD of my play session yesterday:
https://www.twitch.tv/locuan/v/55073367

Mic Audio was messed up, considering not using it next time. Also, I'm gonna john and say I was warming up those first few matches. D:

 

[BunbUn129]

and his disadvantage state is very, very real.

Cloud's disadvantage state is exploitable, but it's far from bad. Dair has a stupid hitbox with an absurdly long duration and auto-cancels the first frame of ending lag. Juggling Cloud is a risk for this reason alone. Fox struggles here because he finds it difficult to land up airs. Let's not forget Cloud is probably the only character who has the option of landing with his up aerial.

Cloud's recovery is also exploitable, but not nearly as bad as on-paper. Fair is scary, up air can defend himself, and he can recover high without much issue. He can also stall with side B. Cloud's recovery is only atrocious and free to edge-guard if the Cloud player is being dumb. would kill for his recovery, ffs. And, on a side not, all this goes out the window if he has LB offstage.

 

[Big-Cat]

This man right here.

What you gotta PhD or somethin?

****ing genius this man.

I have a bachelors and in the process of getting another. Does that count?

 

[BSP]

so anti made a list.
I don't think you should make a tier list too early,but what ever.

Sonic better than Diddy? Interesting. I know Sonic is good but Diddy is no slouch either. I'd love to hear Anti's reasoning in that one. Maybe he thinks sonic does better against the upper echelon?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think the sheik nerfs were as bad as the Luigi ones but she did get hit hard.

She might drop 10 spots at least.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is this what people are really concluding about ZSS? I'd like to see were people have stated that. It goes against what I have been experiencing in testing/etc. I spent last night playing against my doubles team mate (ZSS main) and ZSS can basically perform the same things she did before for the most part, she just doesn't kill at the same percents. She still has her incredibly strong options, which still make her a top character imo.

Full VOD of my play session yesterday:
https://www.twitch.tv/locuan/v/55073367

Mic Audio was messed up, considering not using it next time. Also, I'm gonna john and say I was warming up those first few matches. D:

From what I've seen, a lot of people don't even bother putting her in top 10 lists anymore. I personally can't weigh in on this because 1. I don't play ZSS and 2. nobody at the tournaments I go to plays ZSS either. For Sheik and Bayo's changes, I've personally seen some of the impact those have had but with ZSS I simply have no experience with the changes yet.

 

[TurboLink]

Cloud's disadvantage state is exploitable, but it's far from bad. Dair has a stupid hitbox with an absurdly long duration and auto-cancels the first frame of ending lag. Juggling Cloud is a risk for this reason alone. Fox struggles here because he finds it difficult to land up airs. Let's not forget Cloud is probably the only character who has the option of landing with his up aerial.

Cloud's recovery is also exploitable, but not nearly as bad as on-paper. Fair is scary, up air can defend himself, and he can recover high without much issue. He can also stall with side B. Cloud's recovery is only atrocious and free to edge-guard if the Cloud player is being dumb. would kill for his recovery, ffs. And, on a side not, all this goes out the window if he has LB offstage.

He also has his wall jump and what about jumping, air-dodging, and then using up special? His up special is pretty fast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

ZSS should still be in the top 5 IMO.

The nerfs hurt but it's not really a big deal.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I remember someone bringing this up, but the -1 weight nerfs from last couples of patches were basically a telling of what was to come in the next few patches.

Patch 1.1.3:
both +1, -1

Patch 1.1.4
all -1

Patch 1.1.5
buffed
nerfed

I wouldn't be surprised if in 1.1.6 we'll see nerfed handily.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Rosa, probably. Sonic, why? I dunno. Characters like him, Mario, Villager, Fox, Ryu, and Pikachu are just fine the way they are currently. He's good but he's not a metagame centralizing terror like Rosa and Cloud are by any stretch.

 

[Halifax?]

Characters who melt away with MU experience deserve bottom 5. What you CAN do is one thing, but what you're ALLOWED to do is more important.

~~~

Earlier we grilled Ryu mains for only developing tech and punish game. It's unfair though to chastise the players who walk most of any character. Ryus, Marths, and Rosalinas impress me in this aspect.

 

[Amadeus9]

I remember someone bringing this up, but the -1 weight nerfs from last couples of patches were basically a telling of what was to come in the next few patches.

Patch 1.1.3:
both +1, -1

Patch 1.1.4
all -1

Patch 1.1.5
buffed
nerfed

I wouldn't be surprised if in 1.1.6 we'll see nerfed handily.

Correlation ≠ causation, cmon.


If the devs keep nerfing everything interesting, every match is just going to be fundamentals vs fundamentals and i find that very bland.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Like I said the other day, they'll probably be one more patch after this sometime during the summer. will probably finally get their respective buff dumps, more minor adjustments to several low/bottom tiers, and get some more jank shaved off before Sakurai tells us to never ask him for anything ever again and flies off in a Kirby shaped dirigible to have a 6 month vacation in Cabo.

 

[Y2Kay]

I remember someone bringing this up, but the -1 weight nerfs from last couples of patches were basically a telling of what was to come in the next few patches.

Patch 1.1.3:
both +1, -1

Patch 1.1.4
all -1

Patch 1.1.5
buffed
nerfed

I wouldn't be surprised if in 1.1.6 we'll see nerfed handily.

If this trend is true Mewtwo will get another buff

I don't think you want that

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Characters who melt away with MU experience deserve bottom 5. What you CAN do is one thing, but what you're ALLOWED to do is more important.

~~~

Earlier we grilled Ryu mains for only developing tech and punish game. It's unfair though to chastise the players who walk most of any character. Ryus, Marths, and Rosalinas impress me in this aspect.

I run a lot as Rosalina too, but that's because she can do stuff like boost grab to scoop up prone opponents. And her RAR bair gives Luma insane range if you do it fast enough.

 

[bc1910]

Not entirely sure why ZSS would drop out of top 5? She was hit pretty hard but her nerfs seem fairly inconsequential compared to Sheik's. The ladder hasn't changed on platform stages.

It's OK. Between Mewtwo buffs last patch, iStudying taking names, and Gren & Mewtwo buffs this patch, I imagine you're having the best month ever.

On topic: do you think Mewtwo beats Cloud? Mewtwo's edgeguarding is top notch, and his neutral ain't shabby. M2K fell to Mew^2 hard so the theory isn't totally wack.

Also: who are Greninja's bad MUs? I'm thinking this will become relevant to my interests in the near future. If his f-air is safe on block, he looks like he's becoming the new Sheik.

Others have answered this but to give you a bit more detail...

Sheik and Sonic are somewhere between -2 and -1.

Cloud is -1.

Fox is somewhere between -1 and 0.

Diddy is his most difficult even MU, followed by Pika, but I would still call them even.

He's solidly even or better with everyone else. Bayo MU could go either way but on paper, and in my experience, he wins.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't get it either with people saying ZSS would drop out of the top 5, they didn't change something core that made her work like they did with Sheik where she lost every single safe way she could kill.

 

[Das Koopa]

Bottom five for me is probably this



I think more defensive mindsets help Dedede stay in the upper part of the bottom 10 and I think DHD can skid by in lower mid through the same logic.

As silly as I initially thought it was, I find it hard to contest the idea of Roy being at or near bottom 5 status. What good is his range when you need to get in to maximize it, and what good is a maximized effect attached to a moveset that was designed for a character to space?

I don't see how Mac isn't bottom 5 either. Good frame data etc. early kills etc. but he's gimpable and probably has an abysmally bad MU chart against the high tier. He gets outranged, camped out, and a lack of aerial coverage means he's operating with an arm tied behind his back in a game where aerial coverage is very important.

please convince me otherwise, I just don't see where he's a secretly decent character, his comeback mechanic is only above Rest in how unreliable it is

 

[C0rvus]

The game is in a confusing spot at the moment. I legit can't name a top 5 or bottom 5 with any certainty.

And god DAMN is Pokken frustrating. At least Smash's mechanics make sense. If only Nintendo gave half of the ****s they are giving to Pokken. It has actual training mode options and Nintendo monies being thrown at it left and right. As a life-long Smash fan, I'm saltyyyyyy

 

[Amadeus9]

Bottom five for me is probably this



I think more defensive mindsets help Dedede stay in the upper part of the bottom 10 and I think DHD can skid by in lower mid through the same logic.

As silly as I initially thought it was, I find it hard to contest the idea of Roy being at or near bottom 5 status. What good is his range when you need to get in to maximize it, and what good is a maximized effect attached to a moveset that was designed for a character to space?

I don't see how Mac isn't bottom 5 either. Good frame data etc. early kills etc. but he's gimpable and probably has an abysmally bad MU chart against the high tier. He gets outranged, camped out, and a lack of aerial coverage means he's operating with an arm tied behind his back in a game where aerial coverage is very important.

please convince me otherwise, I just don't see where he's a secretly decent character, his comeback mechanic is only above Rest in how unreliable it is

I dont think I need to tell you what you're wrong on and for why

but really, seeing palutena next to jigglypuff is extremely agitating

The game is in a confusing spot at the moment. I legit can't name a top 5 or bottom 5 with any certainty.


And god DAMN is Pokken frustrating. At least Smash's mechanics make sense. If only Nintendo gave half of the ****s they are giving to Pokken. It has actual training mode options and Nintendo monies being thrown at it left and right. As a life-long Smash fan, I'm saltyyyyyy

Is pokken ur first traditional fighter, any chance?

flaming fun aside, pokken has nothing to do with smash 4 meta, so like, can you not.

 

[DblCrest]

Namco helped with Pokken as well haha XD . Maybe Smash's mechanics just aren't their forte in the end.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I remember someone bringing this up, but the -1 weight nerfs from last couples of patches were basically a telling of what was to come in the next few patches.

Patch 1.1.3:
both +1, -1

Patch 1.1.4
all -1

Patch 1.1.5
buffed
nerfed

I wouldn't be surprised if in 1.1.6 we'll see nerfed handily.

the moment they get nerfed is the moment I leave this game. Seriously.

 

[C0rvus]

Is pokken ur first traditional fighter, any chance?

flaming fun aside, pokken has nothing to do with smash 4 meta, so like, can you not.

No, it's not for the record. I'm pretty bad.

Edit: o yeah I shouldn't do this, should I

Uhh... Any big names at Final Round? We need all the data we can get our eyes on in this new patch.
Reflex is always fun to watch, and AnTi has been playing plenty of Sheik lately. So hard to get a read on that character at this point.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Pika really has the potential to go up. His gimps alone give him an incredible tool against Cloud, Rosa, Diddy, and even bayo to an extent (she is much more vulnerable upon recovering than sheik, and even sheik has been gimped by esam). He also happens to have solid matchups against those characters in general, not just offstage.

His rise will in the end depend on how esam plays down the road. If he can finally nail the uthrow kill confirm (and yes, it is a kill confirm, not a 50/50 or a mixup), then he will place higher. His mess-ups on the RAR tech have often cost him matches.

 

[ARISTOS]

ZSS is most def still top 5, because by and large everything of hers STILL WORKS. It's all been toned down so it doesn't kill at lolwhatever % but the followups are still there and her mobility is still unbelievably incredible. This is on top of still amazing tools. ZSS is not like , who are actually now a good amount worse than they were. ZSS's MUs got toned down a bit but she's probably still beating the same stuff she did before, they just get a longer time to play.

atm is the answer that makes most sense IMO. Sheik is still hard because the tools she beat Cloud with offstage are intact but Cloud now kills her so much earlier now and will not kill him onstage. Everything else is even/Cloud wins, as opposed to , who all have rough MUs here and there. Cloud isn't as polarizing as Sheik was though.

For the low/bottom tier discussion, it's gonna be hard to make any sort of ranking now. Apart from , all characters have tools that are rewarding and are useful in situations. This leads to people claiming their character to be mid tier-but someone has to be low.

If we're gonna argue about low/bottom tiers, here are the characters I believe we should be focusing on:
{} []

In {} are characters who just received large changes. [] holds characters that do pretty well even with poor theory

 

[Kulty]

I really do wonder what are potential best characters in the game:. I think I'm really in the clan of people saying that Sheik nerfs were kinda hard (might be worst than thetreatment). As for, he lost his most valuable tool for his early kills, but I seriously doubt how it will affect his viability just by this one move. I seriously don't think that thenerfs were that bad.


With that logic in mind, I think it's kinda hard to say potential nerfs for the next balance patch. The best characters that I can think of that can be potentially nerfed are probably (in my opinion)(especially these two).

I personally don't think that characters likewill get nerfed again anytime soon, because 1 they're not the type of characters that have potential of big national tournaments (but they still have great results) . 2, I feel that these characters are pretty much balanced. Whenever Sakurai sees a character winning many national tournaments, he'll make sure to nerf this character for some reason. If they nerf Sheik in next patch, that would be totally stupid imo since they already destroyed most of her powerful tools that she has in the previous patches...

EDIT: isreally regarded as one of the worst characters in the game? I want to know where does Shulk stand in the metagame after this patch. I know it might too early to tell, but I think that's a plus due to the nerfs of the top-tiers.

 

[Radical Larry]

While predictions tend not to be 100% accurate, especially my own (so take this list with a grain of salt), I'd like to at least try giving an educated guess as to what the tier list may turn out to be (if not closely resemble) in the future of Smash 4. I'm at least going to try to give my educated guess based on the buffs and nerfs of characters, as well as possibilities of potential and MU changes. But as a disclaimer, I do not want to derail the topic; instead, I'll attempt to not only keep this tier list on here, but I will also attempt to not derail even with this list prediction:



Tier predictions are technically on-topic right now aside from combos and character viability traits being shifted. Characters who have gained significant buffs, like the bottoms who were buffed, are going to see some tournament representation hopefully, with Samus possibly going into mid-tier due to her significantly boosted MUs against characters she would have once went even or slightly struggled against, as she is more versatile than ever before.

Sadly, I guess I even think Jigglypuff is the worst character, since her MUs have only become nerfed thanks to characters like Ganondorf being buffed overall, making it almost impossible for Puff to really win.

As for some of the placements, I actually did see many peoples' posts about their own opinions and formulated that alongside my own thoughts. Cloud, however, I firmly believe to be only one placement down. Yes, he's still a versatile character and some of his MUs have been toned down, but some of his other MUs, especially Samus, have also taken turns for his disadvantage. Plus, having Finishing Touch not able to kill opponents jankly low in mid-air is more of a nerf that is very harmful to him, and all of the nerfs he received makes him just worse, not better. Even with better MUs against some characters, there are more characters that now have advantages over him, thus causing him to be lower in my own prediction.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the Cloud hype whatsoever, and I honestly think everyone's over-estimating him.
Funny coming from a guy who plays Cloud himself at a very decent degree.

(One can say I at least TRIED to not do anything bad. And talking about tiers isn't derailing the thread, since we're already talking about them.)

 

[RonNewcomb]

Others have answered ('s bad MUs) but to give you a bit more detail...

Sheik and Sonic are somewhere between -2 and -1.

Cloud is -1.

Fox is somewhere between -1 and 0.

Diddy is his most difficult even MU, followed by Pika, but I would still call them even.

He's solidly even or better with everyone else. Bayo MU could go either way but on paper, and in my experience, he wins.

See, this is what bothers me. That's a better MU spread than pre-patch Cloud. Someone way earlier in this thread said Cloud had 4 bad MUs, and then the nerf bat tapped him on the shoulder. Greninja was buffed directly, and had his gatekeeper bopped. I'm not prone to tier listing, but I'm thinking frogs fly higher than clouds right now.

And whoever thinks Rosa was top tier because she spotdodged the nerf bat, both of these characters give her a hard time.

Bottom five for me is probably this



I don't see how Mac isn't bottom 5 either. Good frame data etc. early kills etc. but he's gimpable and probably has an abysmally bad MU chart against the high tier. He gets outranged, camped out, and a lack of aerial coverage means he's operating with an arm tied behind his back in a game where aerial coverage is very important.

And yet, Sol exists and says he gives pre-patch Sheik a run for her money. Mac only has one problem. Roy has a systemic problem.

The game is in a confusing spot at the moment. I legit can't name a top 5 or bottom 5 with any certainty.

Which is awesome. Such is balance.

 

[Jams.]

I don't get it either with people saying ZSS would drop out of the top 5, they didn't change something core that made her work like they did with Sheik where she lost every single safe way she could kill.

I don't personally think ZSS dropped out of the top 5, but here is my justification on why I feel such a stance is reasonable. ZSS's position as second on most tier lists was never as solid as Sheik's position on top. She has neither the MU spread nor the results to really separate herself from the other top tiers the way Sheik did. I feel like the reason she was always second was because she had one of the best Sheik matchups, and because of Nairo. Meanwhile, Sheik was sitting there with zero negative MUs and more high and top level players than the rest of top tier combined (this is an exaggeration and probably not actually true).

Basically, ZSS was much closer to the power level of the other top tiers than Sheik was, so her nerfs, although noticeably less severe than Sheiks, pushed her into the top tier cluster where she could be reasonably excluded from a top 5 list.

 

[Das Koopa]

Last Sol result I saw was him getting 9th at Tampa Never Sleeps 6.

Also... did he give good pre-patch Sheik players who're familiar with the matchup a run for their money?

 

[Ghostbone]

ZSS lost more than people are giving her credit for, her new d-throw is actually a lot worse for combos as the opponent gets into high %s. She can't kill you off of a grab, ever, anymore.

Plus her shield safety with nair is slightly worse, because she can't space as far away due to the range nerf and it just does less shield stun.

 

[jespoke]

The big thing about Rosa's position before and after the patch that puts her not at the top, is that her matchup spread is so different from most of the rest of top/high tier. She benefits less from the nerfs to Sheik & Co than many others, while she has to deal with a rise in viability of characters that Rosa in particular has a harder time with.