Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

Except the angle was changed More horizontally. That's more ambiguous than a straight up KB nerf on a one-purpose kill move.

And they decreased the damage by 1%.
And they increased the SDI multiplier 1.0->1.5 (it's actually funny to see someone fly unusually far when they get hit by this move, because the game is giving a middle finger and is like, "lol, no, we 1.1.5 now").

So tell me, how are these changes ambiguous, my friend?

 

[Nabbitnator]

boy, at least you don't have melee mewtwo's stupid tail sound effects lol. smash 4 mewtwo's new SFX at least sounds like they hurt.


EDIT: C0rvus Ahhh, buddy! DA - > Fair has always been a thing. Down tilt and Up air spike are much better kill setups too IMO

I feel like this happens when people don't try to explore other characters before each patch.

 

[FullMoon]

Wasn't Wizard Foot always able to go through fully charged shuriken? The multi-hits of the shuriken does like less than 1% so it shouldn't be beaten by it unless I'm missing an important detail here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wasn't Wizard Foot always able to go through fully charged shuriken? The multi-hits of the shuriken does like less than 1% so it shouldn't be beaten by it unless I'm missing an important detail here.

Well, it might not be new but it's still worth noting I guess!

The list has just been expanded, you get the idea =VVVV

I think Wizkick beating Lemons is probably the biggest thing now though. Also the fact that its KB wasn't touched at all makes Wizkick's 12% damage throughout 2/3 of its hitboxes actually able to kill people now too!

Man this patch <3

 

[ARISTOS]

I think the Sheik nerfs are far more cumbersome then I think we might want to believe. I was watching part of Shockwave, and Karna, even though he was much better than his opponent, could often not deal the finishing touch to his opponent until >150%.

Was it Emblem Lord who stated the game revolves around kill confirms? In any case, Sheik has had her main ones deleted from the game, with Nair into Bouncing Fish being the last remaining one. She now has to fish for BF reads and USmash to get kills, ala and past certain percents.

The problem is that unlike Mario and Fox, Sheik does not have the safe KO tools to seal off stocks the former have. USmash is incredibly laggy, BF is great but puts you in a precarious position if you miss, and DSmash and FSmash are awful.

The lower weight as well means that any Sheik flub leads to very high punishment, because starting around 70-80% the hard hitters are going to start KOing you. There's now very little margin for error on now a very technical and difficult to play character.

I'll wait for future large tournaments to evaluate this hypothesis, but IMO at best Sheik will be barely eking out a top 10 position. Too many top tiers do too much damage and kill way too early for you to be able to let them live past 140- all the damage racking in the world doesn't matter in your opponent regularly gets to kill you first.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik's matchup spread actually looks pretty bad as of now.

If we look at who went close to even with her before, Rosa, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Diddy were the main contenders.
Everyone in that list besides ZSS (cos of her own nerfs lol) should be beating her now (tbh I'm not sure about Sonic but the others definitely do), on top of that she probably goes even at best with Bayo and Cloud.

That's not the matchup spread of a top 5 character

 

[HeavyLobster]

Wasn't Wizard Foot always able to go through fully charged shuriken? The multi-hits of the shuriken does like less than 1% so it shouldn't be beaten by it unless I'm missing an important detail here.

The strong hit may have in the past, but it was pretty unreliable. The +2 damage boost should let it beat anything cleanly that does 2% or less for weak hit and 4% or less for strong hit. The strong hit I think might also be slightly larger now, though I'm not sure.

 

[TurboLink]

I think the Sheik nerfs are far more cumbersome then I think we might want to believe. I was watching part of Shockwave, and Karna, even though he was much better than his opponent, could often not deal the finishing touch to his opponent until >150%.

Was it Emblem Lord who stated the game revolves around kill confirms? In any case, Sheik has had her main ones deleted from the game, with Nair into Bouncing Fish being the last remaining one. She now has to fish for BF reads and USmash to get kills, ala and past certain percents.

The problem is that unlike Mario and Fox, Sheik does not have the safe KO tools to seal off stocks the former have. USmash is incredibly laggy, BF is great but puts you in a precarious position if you miss, and DSmash and FSmash are awful.

The lower weight as well means that any Sheik flub leads to very high punishment, because starting around 70-80% the hard hitters are going to start KOing you. There's now very little margin for error on now a very technical and difficult to play character.

I'll wait for future large tournaments to evaluate this hypothesis, but IMO at best Sheik will be barely eking out a top 10 position. Too many top tiers do too much damage and kill way too early for you to be able to let them live past 140- all the damage racking in the world doesn't matter in your opponent regularly gets to kill you first.

Doesn't she still have aerial Needle Storm into Bouncing Fish? I'm also wondering if forward tilt into up air could be a kill confirm at certain percents.

 

[FullMoon]

The strong hit may have in the past, but it was pretty unreliable. The +2 damage boost should let it beat anything cleanly that does 2% or less for weak hit and 4% or less for strong hit. The strong hit I think might also be slightly larger now, though I'm not sure.

Even pre-patch the weak hit should fly past the charged shuriken considering the damage values.

Either way, it's the small shurikens which are a problem for Ganondorf and now the strong hit can go past them, but at the same time unless Greninja is close, using WF in that situation is just asking for a punish.

I wouldn't know how significant the buff is for Ganon, but it probably won't make too much of a difference against Greninja, especially considering he got buffed too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wizkick buff is significant because it lets the move kill AND lets it beat a lot of good fireballs. That's it.

I also forgot to mention something else Ganon got! A TWO UNIT range extension on his Flame Choke grabbox, on the X axis. It was pushed out 2 units which doesn't sound big but is actually fairly noticeable. Techchasing with Choke is now easier, more reliable, and the range is just generally better. This applies to both grounded and aerial versions.

This patch is pretty dope.

 

[adom4]

Wasn't Wizard Foot always able to go through fully charged shuriken? The multi-hits of the shuriken does like less than 1% so it shouldn't be beaten by it unless I'm missing an important detail here.

I can confirm that it didn't beat it before, it clashed.

Even pre-patch the weak hit should fly past the charged shuriken considering the damage values.

Either way, it's the small shurikens which are a problem for Ganondorf and now the strong hit can go past them, but at the same time unless Greninja is close, using WF in that situation is just asking for a punish.

I wouldn't know how significant the buff is for Ganon, but it probably won't make too much of a difference against Greninja, especially considering he got buffed too.

Yeah my guess it wouldn't help all that much against Greninja, but the damage buff will help against lighter characters because with some rage it can actually kill at a reasonable % now & against characters with bad recoveries because of the extra knockback.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Opening people up with Ryu isnt hard.

Dash in > roll behind > mash light d-tilt is actually stupid easy and scary as hell.

But imma stop talking about Ryu now because I need you guys to think hes not top ten so he can not be nerfed then dominate the meta after I get into this game for real during the summer.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Even pre-patch the weak hit should fly past the charged shuriken considering the damage values.

Either way, it's the small shurikens which are a problem for Ganondorf and now the strong hit can go past them, but at the same time unless Greninja is close, using WF in that situation is just asking for a punish.

I wouldn't know how significant the buff is for Ganon, but it probably won't make too much of a difference against Greninja, especially considering he got buffed too.

It's big in terms of Ganon's ability to threaten and condition people in neutral. He's helped in most MUs, though Greninja is still going to be really hard for him. Not sure if it's gonna be a 30-70 or 35-65 MU now, since it depends on the relative gains each side sees. Sheik, Bayo, Mega Man, and Sonic are probably his really bad MUs that would be helped most, though all of them are still going to be tough, especially Bayo. Wizkick buff is a godsend for punishing Sonic, as before the worst he'd ever get from Spindash -> Spring was a lovetap from Wizkick's sourspot.

 

[webbedspace]

What are people's premonitions about the topmost tiers, now? Does something like

SS: Cloud
S: ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Diddy
A: Sheik, Fox, Ryu, Mario, Sonic

sound not too outlandish?

 

[C0rvus]

I think Cloud might be the best, but he isn't in a tier of his own. I think Bayonetta, ZSS, and Diddy occupy a similar space. Perhaps Sheik and Ryu as well.

 

[TurboLink]

Doesn't Cloud now have a killing problem outside of his Limit?

 

[TDK]

If the game was based solely around kill confirms than Little Mac and Sword Mac (Roy) wouldn't be low tier. Roy has falling sour spot up air -> up tilt as a confirm, for the record.

Anyways, here's what I'm seeing happening:

Top 3: / (I could see either of these two taking the top spot)
Top 10: : 4
Top 20: ( / )
Bottom 5:

Feel free to rearrange the top 10 and top 20 as you likeMii fighters not included because they're never legal.

Take this with a grin of salt. This is just what I see happening in the future. Sheik is still up there because of her incredible safety. I'm not sure where ZSS will truly land, there's been no discussion on her. Every buff Mewtwo got in the last two patches adds him to high tier for me.

 

[PK Gaming]

ZeRo gives a succint rundown of Sheik's nerfs. It's an informative watch, since it clears up a lot of misconceptions that people have had in regards to the character.

 

[Amadeus9]

Anyone who thinks Palutena is a potential bottom 5 character has absolutely no understanding of the character.

 

[Respect38]

Cloud isn't Brawl MK, making him a SS tier is silly... maybe he's top of S tier, but if the other former S tiers have now dropped a tier under Cloud, then just throw them into A tier.

 

[Nobie]

Speaking of ZeRo, I was thinking about how he values Dedede and Shulk so much more than what is common opinion, which leads me to believe that ZeRo thinks that speedy frame data isn't the end-all, be-all of a character. He basically argues that Shulk is too versatile to be so bad, and that Dedede's ability to trap opponents is really good. He even touts Gordos as a good projectile for controlling space even while obviously aware that you can swat it away.

Something tells me he's thinking about things differently, and given that it's ZeRo it's worth some merit to ask:
@TSM ZeRo

EDIT: Watched the video. ZeRo basically says that they made her a little less safe and gutted her ability to kill reliably, and that the nerf in general was actually worse than the Diddy nerf.

My thoughts on this are that, while it's understandable why Sheik players would be upset, and this sets them back tremendously, I think that was what Sheik was supposed to be all along: someone good at racking up damage and fighting with a fantastic neutral who conversely needs a read to get a kill. The fact that players found ways around that is to their merit, but also put a target on Sheik's back for eventual nerfs.

 

[Big-Cat]

What are people's premonitions about the topmost tiers, now? Does something like

SS: Cloud
S: ZSS, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Diddy
A: Sheik, Fox, Ryu, Mario, Sonic

sound not too outlandish?

If you have to rank strictly within those then maybe. I'll be honest, I see Bayonetta potentially being just below Sonic. The more players start to understand DI and neutral the less scary she is. Then there's players making the decision between sucking it up when it comes to damage or attempt to escape a potential kill move via DI.

And another thing, at this point, tiers are more compressed where the standard S, A, B, C with +/- can be used without much issue. Still think J tier is ****ing stupid.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sheik's matchup spread actually looks pretty bad as of now.

If we look at who went close to even with her before, Rosa, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Diddy were the main contenders.
Everyone in that list besides ZSS (cos of her own nerfs lol) should be beating her now (tbh I'm not sure about Sonic but the others definitely do), on top of that she probably goes even at best with Bayo and Cloud.

That's not the matchup spread of a top 5 character

Considering Link was once either an even or +1 in Sheik's favor, and now I'd be justified in saying he's actually now advantageous against Sheik thanks to the Sheik nerfs, she won't have the MU spread of a top 5, but instead, a top 10.

Wizkick buff is significant because it lets the move kill AND lets it beat a lot of good fireballs. That's it.

I also forgot to mention something else Ganon got! A TWO UNIT range extension on his Flame Choke grabbox, on the X axis. It was pushed out 2 units which doesn't sound big but is actually fairly noticeable. Techchasing with Choke is now easier, more reliable, and the range is just generally better. This applies to both grounded and aerial versions.

This patch is pretty dope.

The two horizontal unit buffs are just as good as the vertical downward unit buffs Ganondorf received for D-Air a while back.

Taking into account the unit movement being a big buff, he's not only more dangerous in tech chasing situations, but that also means that more range means he's going to doom a lot of characters with Flame Choke a lot earlier in the Ganoncide. Ganoncide may not have been as good, but now it's one great option to use as Ganondorf with the buffs, as he can practically grab almost anyone who throws out a non-disjointed hitbox. Tech chases are more opportune and Ganoncide is even buffed, so all we'd need now is a buff in having no tech-ability on the ground portion and the grab is good to go.

Now I want to talk about his jab; that sucker's not to be messed with now. Being a faster and more efficient jab attack, this move needs to be used a lot more by Ganondorf mains due to its great power for a speedy jab (you will usually hit with the 8% or 10% hitboxes) that has a hitbox that now comes out at frame 6 and ends frame 28. That's a hefty jab that's great for sending opponents off the stage for possible meteor 50/50s or edge guard confirms with F-Air. This also makes it a one of a kind jab that you don't want to shield against due to its high range, power and speed all coming together; this makes the jab a potential shield breaker or follow up into a shield breaking attack, such as F-Smash. His Jab shouldn't be messed with this time around.

Dash Attack's little buff; well, losing the endlag on it surely helps a lot with its combo usage. I can see Dash Attack (late) > Jab being a thing, but his overall combo ability is better than it used to be. WizKick's good buff in damage means he can just be able to rack up damage much faster, which makes him pretty good in the long run.

I don't see this character being Bottom Tier anymore. I'd say along the lines of low to upper low tier is best.

But I am surely not going to go into tier talk outside of saying this:
Never put Dedede or Palutena in bottom five.
Never put Cloud as a part of top five; he's still got those bad low tier MUs and Villager.
Zelda shouldn't even be a contender for bottom five at all, not even bottom ten.
Rosalina's probably the best character in the game as of currently.
Four or five tier categories, please! You can give them sub-categorization, but no more!

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you have to rank strictly within those then maybe. I'll be honest, I see Bayonetta potentially being just below Sonic. The more players start to understand DI and neutral the less scary she is. Then there's players making the decision between sucking it up when it comes to damage or attempt to escape a potential kill move via DI.

And another thing, at this point, tiers are more compressed where the standard S, A, B, C with +/- can be used without much issue. Still think J tier is ****ing stupid.

Not entirely. I'd say S, A, B, C, and then J.

Why J? Why, Jigglypuff, of course! I can not think of a single relevant thing about this character anymore, especially with all of the other significant low tier improvements. Even the top tier nerfs do nothing to help this character because the characters that got better still give her a hard time.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Doesn't Cloud now have a killing problem outside of his Limit?

I'd say no because his kill options have always been extensive. All his smash attacks are still pretty strong, all his aerials can still reasonably kill, and, even with Finishing Touch taking a hit, Limit Break cross slash is still stupidly good and Limit Break blade beam is still an option too.

 

[bc1910]

If the game was based solely around kill confirms than Little Mac and Sword Mac (Roy) wouldn't be low tier. Roy has falling sour spot up air -> up tilt as a confirm, for the record.

Anyways, here's what I'm seeing happening:

Top 3: / (I could see either of these two taking the top spot)
Top 10: : 4
Top 20: ( / )
Bottom 5:

Feel free to rearrange the top 10 and top 20 as you likeMii fighters not included because they're never legal.

Take this with a grin of salt. This is just what I see happening in the future. Sheik is still up there because of her incredible safety. I'm not sure where ZSS will truly land, there's been no discussion on her. Every buff Mewtwo got in the last two patches adds him to high tier for me.

Disturbing lack of Greninja in the top 20.

Seriously, it's time to be including him there by default. His MU spread is great now. He has more claim to top 20 than M2 for sure, and arguably Corrin, DK, Falcon, and probably the Pits.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd say Bowser and Greninja are both viable candidates for top 20 or 25. I'd also throw Robin and Shulk in. Way too much potential with both those characters.

Maybe I haven't seen enough, but I'm not thoroughly convinced on DK being top 20. To a lesser extent the Pits but I can see them comfortable at 20.

But really, I'd say top 30 are viable.

 

[Das Koopa]

Anyone who thinks Palutena is a potential bottom 5 character has absolutely no understanding of the character.

I'm all ears.

 

[TDK]

Anyone who thinks Palutena is a potential bottom 5 character has absolutely no understanding of the character.

Please, enlighten me. Palutena is half a character. Good jab, tilts and smashes are horrible (up smash is the only one worth mentioning and it's still meh) , good aerials, specials range from good to useless, throws are entirely DI dependant to combo and don't kill.

Palutena needs to run away and wait for the opponent to come to her. However, it's not that simple because she can't force approaches. Autoreticle isn't threatening in the slightest, and Palutena doesn't have good tools to approach (warp works in the same way Farore's wind works)

Defensive play kills the defensive character. She's extremely flawed outside of customs, and with customs not legal for the foreseeable future, Palutena is doomed.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I'd like to know why people would consider Jiggs a bottom tier, if not the worst now?

 

[Emblem Lord]

As power creep and rebalances continue she is looking weaker and weaker.

Palutena doesnt have the juice.

If she isnt bottom tier then who is weaker then her? Not Zelda, Ganon or Samus. Certainly not Lucina.

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm all ears.

She's not a great character by any means, but compare her playstyle, mu spread, AND results to Falco. They are basically the same character (and I would argue Palutena is the better of the two)

Anything I could say beyond that is fairly subjective relating to "potential" and how she can be played by a theoretical top level main, which is argumentation that I hate, so I'm just going to let the play or players like TLTC speak for itself. Especially regarding her results (which are as good or better than Falco's)

OH I will say, she can consistently shut out any fighter that cant properly deal with her aerial attacks, I.E. big fatties or short range fighters. For this reason she also has what I consider to be a fairly even mu with Mario however the rest of her top tier mus are trash, tho mk probably isn't as bad anymore considering the fact that the main reason she lost that mu was that she got bodied by death combos (even though she could win in neutral fairly easily against mk)

 

[TTTTTsd]

So I'd like to know why people would consider Jiggs a bottom tier, if not the worst now?

She loses the range game to the entire cast. Her explosive kill option is potentially unsafe because of faster ceiling KOs being a thing now, her edgeguarding is ok but she has to win neutral and she loses to reactive play and literally just buttons.

Lightest char in the game so Rage literally gores her really bad, doesn't help that all of our best chars have moves that scale with Rage really well.

Isn't exceptionally good at building on damage and to make matters even better, has the smallest shield relative to body size in the game (IIRC) and also dies when it is broken.

I think that should be enough to suffice. One of the few chars that Ganondorf decisively beats, to boot.

I LEGITIMATELY think the only reason people said Zelda was the worst was because they forgot Jigglypuff was even a playable character in the game.

 

[Amadeus9]

Please, enlighten me. Palutena is half a character. Good jab, tilts and smashes are horrible (up smash is the only one worth mentioning and it's still meh) , good aerials, specials range from good to useless, throws are entirely DI dependant to combo and don't kill.

Palutena needs to run away and wait for the opponent to come to her. However, it's not that simple because she can't force approaches. Autoreticle isn't threatening in the slightest, and Palutena doesn't have good tools to approach (warp works in the same way Farore's wind works)

Defensive play kills the defensive character. She's extremely flawed outside of customs, and with customs not legal for the foreseeable future, Palutena is doomed.

Palutena has absurdly safe pokes coupled with some of the best aerial mobility in the game, with a decent combo game at low/mid percents

She's held back by needing a read to kill and being too light for her own good, which IMO doesn't hold her back enough to drop her any lower than bottom 20-15 or so. (Which is where Falco belongs as well, honestly just look at the two fighters. They are functionally the same)

 

[L9999]

If the game was based solely around kill confirms than Little Mac and Sword Mac (Roy) wouldn't be low tier. Roy has falling sour spot up air -> up tilt as a confirm, for the record.

Anyways, here's what I'm seeing happening:

Top 3: / (I could see either of these two taking the top spot)
Top 10: : 4
Top 20: ( / )
Bottom 5:

Feel free to rearrange the top 10 and top 20 as you likeMii fighters not included because they're never legal.

Take this with a grin of salt. This is just what I see happening in the future. Sheik is still up there because of her incredible safety. I'm not sure where ZSS will truly land, there's been no discussion on her. Every buff Mewtwo got in the last two patches adds him to high tier for me.

Bayonetta won't go far once people stop throwing out moves like idiots and actually play neutral. Diddy is totally top 3. I don't think Sheik will leave top 5. Her frame data, combo ability and edgeguarding are too good for that. Meta Knight is not below Rat and Killager. Where is Greninja? As for bottom 5, Lucina is much better than a lot of the trash tier characters, and following the logic that her MU spread is similar to Marth's and she is more consistent, she shouldn´t be this low. Palutena has results that are too good to be trash tier, and she has decent MUs like Killager.

But I am surely not going to go into tier talk outside of saying this:
Never put Dedede or Palutena in bottom five.
Never put Cloud as a part of top five; he's still got those bad low tier MUs and Villager.
Zelda shouldn't even be a contender for bottom five at all, not even bottom ten.
Rosalina's probably the best character in the game as of currently.
Four or five tier categories, please! You can give them sub-categorization, but no more!

Palutena I agree, not sure on DDD.
Which low tiers? Cloud invalidates most low tiers. And seeing how Ranai loses to every Cloud you put him against I wouldn't agree. Maybe it's Ranai and not Killager, but other Killagers haven't proved otherwise AFAIK.
Zelda may have a Hoo-hah, better grabs and a special that isn't complete trash, but she is still sluggish on everything, her MU spread is kinda bad.
Rosalina still gets bodied by Cloud and MK. Still top 3, only competition left is Diddy because ZSS and Sheik got butchered.

 

[Y2Kay]

Alright, I'm going to talk about Shadowball, since there are some big misconceptions about the move.

Just because you have a reflector, bucket, cape, or pocket doesn't mean you nullify the moves uses entirely. Though Mewtwo may dislike reflectors and rather not have to deal with them, it doesn't mean it loses all it's uses. It's still a good neutral tool regardless.

Alright, let me set up a scenario:

A Villager is within kill percent of my Shadow ball. How many ways can I kill him with Shadow ball?

• Villager misses a ground tech, I cover his getup options with Shadow Ball. He dies.
• I read a roll or standing getup option off the ledge. He dies.
• The Villager whiff a grounded option, such as grab, smash attack, or tilt. I retaliate with a Shadow Ball. He dies.
• Villager launches a lloid rocket. I reflect it back and follow it up with a Shadow Ball. Villager accidentally shield both and breaks his shield. I go for the disrespect and stun him with a Disable and charge another shadow ball and throw it at him. He dies.
• I catch him off guard and throw it at him while offstage instead of going for average things like a Fair or Bair. He doesnt react fast enough. He dies.
• I bait out the pocket and then fire the Shadow Ball. He misses it. He dies.
• I throw it out at point blank because YOLO! He dies.

Just for reference, I've tried all of these on actual villager main's and have worked. Villager can avoidable of these options, but that's the point. It doesn't matter whether or not the Shadowball hits, it's about if he has the shadow ball. Villager may be able to stop a shadow ball, but he can't stop a Mewtwo from charging shadow ball. Not only does he have to use a move that literally had no other offensive uses other wise, and has to taken in to account all the scenarios I stated. At that point, Mission Complete! The psychological effect of Shadow Ball has taken its course, which is just as valuable, if not more, than the fact that Shadow Ball kills people pretty early.

If you still disagree, think of it this way: Do you think Villager, Game and Watch, Falco, and others have anything better to do than sit there and use a reflector? Of course they do! Villager could be planting a tree, firing a lloid rocket or a sling shot. Game and Watch would like to get in a grab for some bread and butter down throw combos. Falco would like to..... do whatever the heck Falco likes to do. All I know is spamming reflector is not on the top of his to do list in neutral.

What actual matters if you can stop him from charging. Sheik's needles and falcon's speed plus dangerous dash grab combos made Charging shadow ball kind of risky. It's also why the needles nerf is a big deal in that matchup.

Basically this is why falcon is perceived as losing, but villager is considered even (for now )

This rant was triggered by GnW main who said he hard counter Mewtwo because of bucket btw.

 

[TDK]

Half the bottom 5 are bottom 5 because I don't count Miis.

She's not a great character by any means, but compare her playstyle, mu spread, AND results to Falco. They are basically the same character (and I would argue Palutena is the better of the two)

Anything I could say beyond that is fairly subjective relating to "potential" and how she can be played by a theoretical top level main, which is argumentation that I hate, so I'm just going to let the play or players like TLTC speak for itself. Especially regarding her results (which are as good or better than Falco's)

OH I will say, she can consistently shut out any fighter that cant properly deal with her aerial attacks, I.E. big fatties or short range fighters. For this reason she also has what I consider to be a fairly even mu with Mario however the rest of her top tier mus are trash, tho mk probably isn't as bad anymore considering the fact that the main reason she lost that mu was that she got bodied by death combos (even though she could win in neutral fairly easily against mk)

Tell me how Palutena

A) Keeps people out
or
B) Gets in

Against a competent player using a decent character.

 

[Das Koopa]

So I'd like to know why people would consider Jiggs a bottom tier, if not the worst now?

I think you'd have a harder time listing her positive qualities

 

[Amadeus9]

Half the bottom 5 are bottom 5 because I don't count Miis.

Tell me how Palutena

A) Keeps people out
or
B) Gets in

Against a competent player using a decent character.

A) Bair
B) Bair

Bair is all things

 

[Ulevo]

It's more to do with smashers being complacent with the status quo (even if a character has blatantly overpowered options such as MK, Shiek, ZSS, Bayo, etc) than me unfairly dismissing his argument. The game has become infinitely better due to the top tiers actually being addressed after Sakurai took a vacation. Seriously, we finally have competent decisions being implemented.

I was not complaining, I was giving my competitive impressions on the character as a day one Meta Knight player.

Thanks for your criticism though, randomguy whoever you are.