Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Yo, MK Mains, take your "sword" waving contests back to your character board plz. Nobody wants to look at your swords, we all know they're the smallest swords in the game anyways. Except for Toon Link, but he's a kid, that don't count.

Greninja mains: fake combos aside, how many actual kill confirms did you all pick up after this patch? Or is it just damaging combos?

as of now it's Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Turnaround Dtilt > JC Upsmash and Bair (hits 1 or 2) > Uptilt > Uair

 

[Nobie]

By the way, whoever said that Mewtwo's newest run speed buff isn't a big deal, just know that you are wrong.

That extra bump into the top echelon of run speed just lets Mewtwo punish so many more things than he used to be able to. It lets him catch landings with dash attack that he couldn't in the past. Against speedy rushdown characters, it lets him space them out just that much more.

I haven't really been able to play the match since the buff, but I think that even the dreaded Captain Falcon matchup might not be so scary anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think best dash attack goes to Greninja now, actually...

This is what the **** I like to see.

High risk for high reward.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja mains: fake combos aside, how many actual kill confirms did you all pick up after this patch? Or is it just damaging combos?

Greninja seems to have two confirms out of B-Air which are these two


However using B-Air like that is very unsafe so it's not the best option, good if you manage to find the opportunity for it though.

The main combos are ones for damage and man do they do a lot of damage.

F-Air -> F-Air does an easy 27%

F-Air -> Dash Attack -> F-Air does over 30%

Charged Shuriken -> F-Air -> Dash Attack -> F-Air does over 40%

B-Air -> Dash Grab -> Up-Air does about 25% I think

B-Air at low percentages can also result in a F-Tilt or D-Air jab lock if the opponent doesn't tech, allowing Greninja to do his famous footstool combos. F-Air can lead into guaranteed footstools as well.

The main thing the buffs did was make his neutral safer (F-Air is -5 on shield now which is really amazing) while also upgrading his already great punish game.

But most of all he has no MU worse than -1 now, making him a very solo viable character now

 

[Ulevo]

And if the uair is stale, suddenly you get 5 uairs instead of 4, or 4 uairs instead of 3, sealing the KO. Same principle lmao

Not to mention that even with fresh uairs, you can kill from less uairs if they DI in and you get sweetspot up-b anyway lol.

Staling the up airs changed where the window was, but it does not widen the window because it also meant that by staling them the enemy did not go as high so if you started the window early they would fall out. It could widen it, but not very much. The only factors that did that were rage because it made the Shuttle Loop stronger, the stage ceiling (Town & City), and which character it was. Characters that did not enter tumble state or were really big were not small windows of course. R.O.B. for instance had a 12% window. But characters that did not enter tumble state usually had very narrow ranges.

None of what I am saying applies to Shuttle Loop's sweet spot, of course. You could kill substantially early with it but because the opponent could always mix up how they DI'd the first hit to escape it was inconsistent. The sour spot was guaranteed at the right percents.

 

[Amadeus9]

inb4 discussing metaknight is a red topic

 

[Vipermoon]

Life is busy, can't follow thread. Sorry guys, have fun. Tag me if you need me.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's bair and fair are both -6 on shieldrop and -13 on oos.
That extra 1% was enough to make sh fair quite hard to punish when spaced properly.

The buffs won't skyrocket zard through the tiers, hell, maybe he wont raise at all. But at the very least zard actually makes sense from a gameplay viewpoint now.

 

[williamsga555]

inb4 discussing metaknight is a red topic

I mean, at least Meta Knight is relevant. Could partially de-rail the thread with Dedede posts like I do.

 

[BananaBake]

I mean, at least Meta Knight is relevant. Could partially de-rail the thread with Dedede posts like I do.

Sure, MK is relevant, but complaining and arguing about him shouldn't be

 

[DblCrest]

BananaBake
I wanted to say that about Sheik in the past. But I'm much too shy

 

[BananaBake]

DblCrest Thank you. Instead of arguing or complaining about ANY character, we should be DISCUSSING things about them, like good and bad MU's, combos and such

 

[ReRaze]

DblCrest Thank you. Instead of arguing or complaining about ANY character, we should be DISCUSSING things about them, like good and bad MU's, combos and such

Well technically they are discussing metaknight's DA > Uair > SL combo.

 

[Tri Knight]

Out of everything, the air speed is my favorite. Look what it did to Mario going from Brawl -> Smash 4!

Regardless of his extremely under representation, there's no doubt he's fierce now. I used to second him for funsies. And even then I thought he was pretty good. I took him to training mode today just to see if people were over exaggerating about it and I could swear it wasnt Charizard.

Only thing that sucks is nobody will take him to tourneys...

 

[BananaBake]

Well technically they are discussing metaknight's DA > Uair > SL combo.

I suppose, but still, lots of heated arguments about it

 

[Fatmanonice]

For Greninja, I think dtilt into sweet spot usmash has always been a thing. Even a lowly pleb such as myself has pulled this off a number of times in tournament matches before.

(Oh god, personal opinion time! Cover the baby's eyes!) I went to a tournament earlier today and, holy crap, Sheik feels a lot more manageable now. Throw set ups felt less catch 22, needles are less annoying, fair strings are far less dumb, and she seems to die noticeably earlier too, especially off the top. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[BananaBake]

For Greninja, I think dtilt into sweet spot usmash has always been a thing. Even a lowly pleb such as myself has pulled this off a number of times in tournament matches before.

(Oh god, personal opinion time! Cover the baby's eyes!) I went to a tournament earlier today and, holy crap, Sheik feels a lot more manageable now. Throw set ups felt less catch 22, needles are less annoying, fair strings are far less dumb, and she seems to die noticeably earlier too, especially off the top. Anyone else feel this way?

What character were you using? Wanna test the stuff you talked about out

 

[Fatmanonice]

What character were you using? Wanna test the stuff you talked about out

Mostly Bowser Jr and Dedede for the Sheik friendlies. One moment that really made me say "oh wow, that killed?!" was when I was underneath the ledge as Dedede, did an uair to clip through the stage, and watched as it killed Sheik at 110% off the top (the stage was Battlefield). To put rage into account, I'm pretty sure I was at about 70%.

 

[BananaBake]

Mostly Bowser Jr and Dedede for the Sheik friendlies. One moment that really made me say "oh wow, that killed?!" was when I was underneath the ledge as Dedede, did an uair to clip through the stage, and watched as it killed Sheik at 110% off the top (the stage was Battlefield). To put rage into account, I'm pretty sure I was at about 70%.

thanks. I know she got a SLIGHT weight reduction (78-77) in 1.1.4, but I seriously doubt that has much to do with it. Could they have DI'd to avoid death? (As far as you could tell)

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik's weight was reduced from 85 > 84 last patch and 84 > 81 this patch.

 

[Nobie]

Ally just won a Michigan Weekly going (I believe) all Marth.

Also, what do people think of Mega Man now that Sheik's been nerfed? People have said that Sheik has been the main obstacle to Mega Man's success, and with kill setups being more unreliable and Needles traveling a shorter distance (but still longer than pellets), does this give Mega Man much more of a fighting chance?

 

[Fatmanonice]

thanks. I know she got a SLIGHT weight reduction (78-77) in 1.1.4, but I seriously doubt that has much to do with it. Could they have DI'd to avoid death? (As far as you could tell)

Keep in mind that she got a weight reduction in this last patch too. 84-81, meaning she went from 85-81 in the past month alone. There seemed to be slight DI as they didn't go straight up from the attack.

 

[BananaBake]

Sheik's weight was reduced from 85 > 84 last patch and 84 > 81 this patch.

Thanks, sorry about that, thinking of someone else

Fatmanonice Thanks again, will test for sure

 

[Megamang]

Played perfectly, Diddy is one of the strongest characters I can imagine. Banana-in-hand just covers sooo much, can be done in shield, and isn't exactly hard to get to. He has a great grab game, really solid neutrals, and even has kill confirms without the banana! The only thing keeping him reasonable is how easy it is to take the banana (in that the game helps you, shield sets it up nicely, etc. Its still up to the diddy, but it doesn't go flying back into his hand or anything), and that most characters get some sort of slapped together kill confirm with the banana that is usually just banana- fsmash. They also often have better glide tosses! It sucks for greninja that his banana throw is garbage vs short characters...which brings me to my next point, Diddy is the real 'small hurtbox' top tier. Its frustrating trying to hit him with some characters, and this is compounded by his extremely strong ground game, powershield -> banana toss destroys pretty much everything that can hit diddy.

Also he is decently heavy, for how big he is. Also, well utilized MF means he doesn't really ever actually get gimped.

 

[C0rvus]

Ally just won a Michigan Weekly going (I believe) all Marth.

Also, what do people think of Mega Man now that Sheik's been nerfed? People have said that Sheik has been the main obstacle to Mega Man's success, and with kill setups being more unreliable and Needles traveling a shorter distance (but still longer than pellets), does this give Mega Man much more of a fighting chance?

He still has to deal with Mario, and the fact that he loses to like, every top/high tier. That and his high learning curve certainly doesn't instill confidence in his staying power. It's also not like Sheik doesn't beat him pretty hard anymore. She certainly seems to have a strong edge over him still. I think he's a pretty nifty character, though

 

[Nobie]

He still has to deal with Mario, and the fact that he loses to like, every top/high tier. That and his high learning curve certainly doesn't instill confidence in his staying power. It's also not like Sheik doesn't beat him pretty hard anymore. She certainly seems to have a strong edge over him still. I think he's a pretty nifty character, though

Is that even true? As far as I know, and based on other opinions I've seen, Mega Man has decent matchups against and Ninja Link believes he does all right against . I also don't see the as being especially terrible, while I don't believe is THAT bad.

 

[C0rvus]

I forgot about Ryu. He allegedly beats Ryu, which is cool. He's even-ish versus Villager and Rosalina, and Ness from what I've seen. I don't know, I've been sensing a lot of negative vibes about Mega Man lately. ZeRo said he basically has nowhere to go and outside of Scatt you don't see a lot of him in high level (In the US at least. Japan has a few players, right?). I wish I had more fun with him because I like his kit, but the work you need to put in just to keep up is daunting. I'm sure he's fine but between all the buffs so many others have received and his small presence it's hard to rate him strongly.

 

[Fatmanonice]

(Oh god, personal opinion time! Cover the baby's eyes!) Megaman has more issues than just Sheik. As Cracklin_Oats said, Mario is pretty bad and Cloud sucks for similar reasons: juggling, effortlessly negating projectiles, able to kill him a lot easier than Megaman can kill them, etc) but Megaman does have an interesting niche against zoners and anti-zoners alike such Rosalina and Villager. In my own experience (*insert obligatory liability clause here*), Fox and Sonic aren't super terrible as Megaman either because leaf shield seems unusually good against rush in tactics (for example, it has enough priority to knock Sonic out of his spin dash attacks) as are pellets and metal blade, and, when it comes to getting the kill in, it feels like a level playing field (meaning they have about the same number of reliable options against each other). As Crackling_Oats said too, Megaman's learning curve scares away a lot of people though, at least in Japan, there seems to be a rise of decent Megaman players as of late with the likes of Kamemushi and Sumabato so maybe the trend might catch on over in the west too.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Ally just won a Michigan Weekly going (I believe) all Marth.

Also, what do people think of Mega Man now that Sheik's been nerfed? People have said that Sheik has been the main obstacle to Mega Man's success, and with kill setups being more unreliable and Needles traveling a shorter distance (but still longer than pellets), does this give Mega Man much more of a fighting chance?

Captain Falcon is a bad MU for Mega Man, correct? Certainly seems in Falcon's favor from my experience, seeing as Mega Man kinda struggles once Falcon gets in due to weight and fall speed, and dash dancing around and spacing bairs and nairs is pretty useful in that MU for getting in easily. Camping just kinda falls flat too.
Falcon wasn't exactly uncommon too, and due to Sheik's nerfs, while I haven't had a chance to play the MU yet, seems like Falcon could rise a little bit, which could be problematic for Mega Man. What are some of his other bad MUs?

 

[Mr. Johan]

I feel like Sheik's weight nerf may be particularly significant this time around. She just can't afford to screw up once against certain characters.

To put into perspective, a Robin with about 95% worth of rage could KO Sheik off the top with Checkmate at from 75%ish from the Dthrow from the base floor of your standard stage in the previous patch. Now, that got lowered to around 70. 65% on T&C. 51% on the top Dreamland platform, and 49% on the TC platforms if I remember right. Robin literally needs just one Fair read at low percents or two Wind Jabs to clear 55%-80% of Sheik's current stock at that moment.

I can't imagine how much mileage Donkey Kong gets out of this now.

She's literally an RPG ninja now. High enough avoidance to mitigate damage wholly, but on the off chance someone gets the hit in, oof.

 

[Nobie]

Captain Falcon is a bad MU for Mega Man, correct? Certainly seems in Falcon's favor from my experience, seeing as Mega Man kinda struggles once Falcon gets in due to weight and fall speed, and dash dancing around and spacing bairs and nairs is pretty useful in that MU for getting in easily. Camping just kinda falls flat too.
Falcon wasn't exactly uncommon too, and due to Sheik's nerfs, while I haven't had a chance to play the MU yet, seems like Falcon could rise a little bit, which could be problematic for Mega Man. What are some of his other bad MUs?

I feel like every Mega Man believes they beat Captain Falcon, and every Captain Falcon believes they beat Mega Man.

Spacing bairs and nairs and dash dancing doesn't exactly get around pellets though.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Nicko is doing some crazy things with Shulk against K9 in grands

He's up 2-0, first set.

https://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

 

[Nobie]

Nicko is doing some crazy things with Shulk against K9 in grands

He's up 2-0, first set.

https://www.twitch.tv/fadgames

Are you telling me there's Shulks on two streams simultaneously? (this is Loser semis) https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc

 

[Megamang]

I see a lot of Megaman players on the ladder. And, looking around the Sumabato bracket between matches, I was surprised by the amount of Megaman players there. It makes sense in their meta, more defense and reactive, since he basically sets up a bullet hell style situation with hitboxes flying all over the stage while he dances around with really, really solid mobility considering his weight.

Mario is a problem. It isn't the same problem most have with Mario either. Well, it is, but megaman doesn't really have a good escape option (rush isn't intangible until too late to be amazing like spring) and is heavy, so he gets combo'd HARD, even harder than most. And his disadvantage isn't great offstage, his recovery is punishable, so a Mario BnB that puts him off the ledge and plays on that has a real chance of doing 80% plus. The speed at which mario attacks and presses buttons is annoying, for instance I'll do a downthrow metal blade while falling back to stop him, he'll come in with his RAR bair and grab the blade, hit my shield, and be safe with my metal blade stolen! Or, he'll dair and itll beat out small hitboxes and still hit me. Mario has a reflector, which hurts non-pellet long range zoning significantly. It also ruins fsmash traps, such as landing a crash bomber and using it to cover f-smash's recovery, or just a simple f-smash charge at the ledge. He puts buttons out so fast its unlikely you'll land a stray utilt to help get the kills, so you're off hoping for a bthrow which is meh unless you're near the ledge, since Mario is a fat *******, or hitting a bair which is possible but less and less likely as Mario's learn to just respect it.

Speaking of which, bair is a serious contender for best bair in the game. Kills, does respectable damage, is disjointed, and has good range, all starting at frame 4! Downsides include it being multi hit so if you trade you usually can't get the killing blow, it having bad landing lag, and it almost never connecting out of a SH against a grounded opponent unless you are wayyyy to far into them to even pretend to be safe.

Captain falcon is also a problem. His stupid jab beats pellets straight up, has deceptive (stupid) range, and covers behind him. His smashes eat projectiles and still hit, killing megaman early. He can edgeguard megaman about as well as we edgeguard him, but you have to hit falcon a lot to get him to finally die offstage (unless you hit a dair, which isn't a good risk/reward against falcon. Its slow enough that he can reasonably expect to dodge it frequently, whereas bair should rarely miss, so its highly suggested to go for bair). Nair sends him at a bad angle and is usually a great edgeguard due to pellet protection, but falcon will just grab you from 50 metres away. His dashgrab is his dashgrab, its a good zone breaker which obviously is problematic for a zoner. His power is just really strong in the MU.

Speaking of which, Megaman is hard to make succeed in a bracket situation. Your games are long, which can be tiring. They are more likely to end quickly if something goes wrong than they are to quickly swing in your favor. Rage monsters like ZSS and Rosalina can quickly eliminate a megaman since he racks up a bunch of damage from silly rage setups. Random MU's like Palutena are tougher than you would think, and the ones that are logically tough like Falcon and Mario are really common. Like, really common. Mario is everywhere, even for just a 60-40 its tough to fight so many. And his gameplan is essentially the same vs Megaman, so knowledge isn't a weakness. He can learn specific stuff and improve like any MU, but he isn't clueless going in.


That said, Megaman is a cool character! He can work in many different ways (seriously, check out sonicmega vs Scatt's playstyles). I've been working on a more aggressive megaman, since I think there is power in being able to use his kill setups in a more hectic environment. Down angled metal blade into utilt is a kill confirm, and the utilt sweetspot kills insanely early. Also, it has huge hitlag and feels awesome like a Dragon Punch should. Bair is one of the best offstage and rising kill options, even when staled. His grabs are huge, can be augmented with leaf shield to add 8% plus his 3% pummels plus a 12% are Ryu level painful.

But the Scatt playstyle... I understand that people hate it. When I play with my housemates' casually, I almost never bust out megaman, and when I do, I don't use any pellets. The reason he won't get any buffs are his good MUs. If you struggle vs Megaman, its because you struggle getting through pellets. You'll be trying to make something work while the blip blip blip slowly tears you down, then you die to leaf shield -> roll ->bthrow at the ledge before you realize that he kills that way, or eat a RAR bair when you thought he was going to just pellet your landing ("he's been pelleting for 10 minutes, why would he stop?"), or just get utilted when trying to roll thru pellets... It just makes sense, if you can deal with the pellet salvo efficiently Megaman has trouble zoning you with mediocre tools (excluding bair, utilt) then its an uphill battle, while if he can keep you out its his game to lose. Especially in America's aggressive meta, I understand why he isn't a popular choice.

 

[Empyrean]

Ally just won a Michigan Weekly going (I believe) all Marth.

He actually used Corrin in winners finals and took it 2-0 over Smasher's (iirc) Mario. Dunno about anything before that set tho.

 

[sedrf]

nicko lost, sheik is still to stronk, and shulk is a laggy mofo.
Still it's good to notice how long the shulk lived due to the sheik nerfs and was able to kill her much sooner.
nicko(the shulk player) also beat concon.

https://www.twitch.tv/210sh
also gf between trela and mega fox just ended.
jband was also there.
what's interesting is that mega opted to use greninja nad that the tourney ran 3 stock.

 

[Megamang]

Gosh, it was hard to believe shulk was alive, when the second I followed your link some guy just kept calling the game over when shulk was offstage...

 

[sedrf]

tbh I think sheik mains are going through the same growing pains diddy mains and greninjas mains went through.

https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc
also xaltis wins 2-2 over eden in losers
eden played m2 in g4 and g5
did surprisingly good against rosa.

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding Greninja's dash attack comboing into stuff:

Dash Attack:

• Hitbox: 9-12F -> 7-10F
• Total Duration: 32F -> 30F

The endlag is exactly the same as before, 20 frames, so there shouldn't be any difference.

 

[sedrf]

gfs happening on csgc xaltis vs dj jack.
xaltis deciding to go link vs ryu.
and she's doing well so far.
also on a side note I think some rosa player called ryu braindead.