Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

While Charizard did get some pretty impressive buffs, keep in mind that he's not going to go anywhere if more people don't pick him up. Like Thinkaman posted the other day, Charizard is currently the 7th worst represented character (#50) of the whole cast, being beat out by the likes of Jiggs (#43), Ganon (#37), and King Dedede (#30). The Donphan in the room is that, even if people see he has more potential now, it's not going to do anything unless people push the pen to the paper, so to speak, and in greater numbers.

 

[Mr. Johan]

MK Fair death combos requires MK to land with it before Fair 2 comes out. So it's a similar thing to Zamus, where he needs to complete his SH and start dropping before he can throw his move out and get the meaty stuff started. For characters like Marth and DK, that's something they'll readily fight directly with their own aerials and tilts before Fair can begin. MK could always Fair before and just use the move, but there's no true followup from there, and it gets them ever closer to getting out of the true string % range.

Having it as a neutral tool and a killing tool is great, but it can be argued to be subjectively worse than the DA strings when against certain characters.

 

[Ulevo]

Have you even used forward air? Are you aware that it confirms combos at almost every percent range? Including into death combos at mid-high percent? Which just so happens to be the range that mks combos leave people at? (even more so with platforms. MK gains absurdities on DL and BF)

Also, you keep saying that this stuff is untrue/doesnt work. You fail to understand what is gained by these combos 100%. The have tight links but when they dont link they link well enough that jumps are eaten, and the nature of these combos being close to the ground means that airdodging puts you on the ground, with lag. Mk can just drop and grab/utilt/dash attack, and reset entirely.

But then again I am talking to the person who swore that bair locking was a bad option the entire time abadango, ito and others were abusing it to net big wins.

And I am arguing against the person who didn't even know the real death %'s with his own character, and who does not understand that a set up that can be DI'd, teched, aerial'd out of during the bounce animation that you are in fact close enough to the ground to aerial out of, and that has a follow up that can literally be DI'd at any time by the opponent who is helpless to invalidate the set up is a bad one.

You know, if you were a **** talker that was bad but at least had results, I may have humored you. But you use the results of others to validate inaccurate claims when you do not even understand the nuances of your own character.

Keep talking.

 

[Megamang]

If MK is running at me, he has more than the late fair though. I have to be worried about DA, dash grab, and early fair (since it can stuff the late fair counters).

Also, I don't care how intricate it was, nor how much labbing was required on both sides, or how much detail a giant post can contain about it... Dying when getting hit at 30 was frustrating to play against, and bad game design. MK being more well rounded is good, im glad some people are taking the changes with optimism and enjoying a different character.

Sorry I don't miss waiting on the ledge and being punished for trying to actually fight MK rather than hiding and being super defensive at ostensibly random percents.


EDIT: Jesus... Can we ignore the unseasonably mad and have a real discussion? Citing other people to point out something's efficacy isn't cowardly,implying it is is insane.

I really like the new feel of Charizard. I honestly can't believe Greninja got buffs, but im happy about that. Its a good time to be a Pokemain.

Overall, would you ZSS guys think you got better vs shiek or not? Honestly, I think nair-bair kill confirms widening in % range, especially since nair will probably be stale, is pretty nice. It isn't great to lose the other stuff, but again, not fearing shiek as much is probably nice.

 

[thehard]

Regardless of how MK turns out, his changes have improved overall game balance and will increase the variety in his play. I think it was @Emblem Lord that said MK didn't actually have matchups before. His pre-patch gameplan really was an anomaly amongst the cast. If it wasn't for the "development has ended" ambiguity I would have 100% called this happening.

One of the things I enjoy observing post-patch is how character mains almost always play better following nerfs- Boss and ConCon with Luigi, last night was S2H and K9 with MK and Sheik. It'll be a breath of fresh uair not seeing MKs fiend for the ladder combo for 90% of their matches now.

I half-expect compensation buffs anyway, but let's see how he develops.

 

[BunbUn129]

If MK is running at me, he has more than the late fair though. I have to be worried about DA, dash grab, and early fair (since it can stuff the late fair counters).

Also, I don't care how intricate it was, nor how much labbing was required on both sides, or how much detail a giant post can contain about it... Dying when getting hit at 30 was frustrating to play against, and bad game design. MK being more well rounded is good, im glad some people are taking the changes with optimism and enjoying a different character.

Sorry I don't miss waiting on the ledge and being punished for trying to actually fight MK rather than hiding and being super defensive at ostensibly random percents.

After reading these posts, I feel strangely guilty for some reason. By playing this character, was I really promoting such degenerate gameplay?

Looking back on the ladder combo, I can now see and admit that it truly was bad game design, not because it killed at 30%, but because it simply overloaded his play style and invalidated his other options.

thehard , can ya link me the set between s2h and k9?

 

[Y2Kay]

Whatever is going on between Ulevo and Amadeus goes beyond this thread

It should stay that way, no need to get us caught up in it. I'm not pointing any fingers though.

 

[adom4]

I am in love with Ganon's buffed jab, it finally feels like he has a move he can just throw out just because, it's a fantastic buff for him.

 

[BunbUn129]

I am in love with Ganon's buffed jab, it finally feels like he has a move he can just throw out just because, it's a fantastic buff for him.

Is it safe on shield now or something with the damage and frame data buffs?

 

[Nobie]

This is a reminder that the POINT of a nerf is to make a character worse.

 

[adom4]

Is it safe on shield now or something with the damage and frame data buffs?

It's very safe on shield, i rarely get punished for it now, the only character that i felt that could punish it was Falcon.

 

[thehard]

After reading these posts, I feel strangely guilty for some reason. By playing this character, was I really promoting such degenerate gameplay?

Looking back on the ladder combo, I can now see and admit that it truly was bad game design, not because it killed at 30%, but because it simply overloaded his play style and invalidated his other options.

thehard , can ya link me the set between s2h and k9?

You don't have to feel guilty, haha. It's actually helpful to showcase gameplay like that so it gets attention. Play whoever and however you want- just take your lumps when the patch hits.

Also, I don't think S2H and K9 played together, but I fell asleep. Matches should be here eventually https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClIuCiBN-UIsTZb0WlhRo0Q

 

[Megamang]

A nice thing about a faster jab is that is makes all his other actions a tiny bit safer. When a character doesn't have a fast option, you can often drop shield -> go violate their space, knowing if you safely put out a hitbox before they can get one out you're in a good position.

Ganon didn't have a problem with safely spacing on shield, but with people going from a safe zone outside of where he could effectively burst too, to a safe zone right on him since he isn't hitting quick enough. Now, having a jab worth a **** means right in his face isn't as safe as before, and having a better wizkick means that zoning him with projectiles isn't as free.

But, pellets still give him trouble. Someone said that he 'beats' pellets now... no lol. He has an option that beats pellets, but single pellet -> shield can bait out wizkick and give a hard punish. The issue before was that he didn't have an option before, and if he did manage to somehow use ****kick to get thru, it didn't do enough damage to justify how he had just gotten out of a really difficult position.

I like this patch. Almost everyone but shiek should like this patch, and they should recognize it is healthy for the game, and also means they won't be playing shiek dittos all day in the future!

 

[Nobie]

I think one of the reasons they've never buffed Shulk's startup frames is because he already has a "get off me" jab similar to what Ganondorf has now.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

But then jab 3 will sometimes whiff on floaties.

At least the range is okay.

 

[adom4]

I think one of the reasons they've never buffed Shulk's startup frames is because he already has a "get off me" jab similar to what Ganondorf has now.

The problem isn't with the startup it's that it really doesn't connect that well, jab 2 & 3 need to be sped up a bit.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just gonna pop in to tell you all Ulevo doesn't know what the **** he's talking about with either pre-patch or post patch MK lmao.

Pre-patch MK's kill confirms had a way bigger range than 1 or 2% when either dash attack, uair, or both were staled, which always happens by the time they get to the death combo %. If it was really that precise people would never die (oh but apparently the people at Ulevo's locals were better than top players? looooool)

Post-patch MK still has very damaging uair combos at early %s that can lead into tech chases or off-stage gimps, character is worse off because the opponent doesn't die, but he's still ok. And uair actually confirms into SL reliably at kill %s now since they don't go as high and can't DI straight above you (MK's blindspot), so both hits of SL reliably connect.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

And I am arguing against the person who didn't even know the real death %'s with his own character, and who does not understand that a set up that can be DI'd, teched, aerial'd out of during the bounce animation that you are in fact close enough to the ground to aerial out of, and that has a follow up that can literally be DI'd at any time by the opponent who is helpless to invalidate the set up is a bad one.

You know, if you were a **** talker that was bad but at least had results, I may have humored you. But you use the results of others to validate inaccurate claims when you do not even understand the nuances of your own character.

Keep talking.

Chill.
This is still just an E10 rated game where Pikachu fights Kirby. Just chill.

 

[Solfiner]

I think one of the reasons they've never buffed Shulk's startup frames is because he already has a "get off me" jab similar to what Ganondorf has now.

Still a generally bad jab, since the FAF on it is terrible and the jabs don't link together that well.

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus' dash attack now sounds like a wet noodle.

Where did that meaty, chunky sound of pre-patch dash attack go? I'm angry. Mad. Confused. Sakurai, please fix.

I'm probably gonna drop Samus now.
No, but seriously, the old sound effect was actually one of the most satisfying things about Samus. Her dash attack is really pretty different now, the 10% is like the sourspot and the new 7% hitbox is the majority of the move. But it's so good... It retains the low FAF, burst mobility, ability to cross shields, and combo potential, but it's just so reliable and vastly improves Samus' close range punish game. If there was doubt before that Samus' had one of the best dash attacks, there can't be now.

 

[NairWizard]

The death combos never actually mattered that much for MK. The windows were bigger than 1 or 2%, but he was an amazing character even without the ladder. In fact, the ladder was covering up a lot of MK's KO potential as a character. He's probably top 10, perhaps top 5, in terms of ability to close a stock. f-smash, d-tilt confirms, dash attack confirms, raw Shuttle Loop, b-air/n-air near the ledge and edgeguards, and then let's not forget up-smash or DC on airdodge reads (flashy but often effective). He had and continues to have an array of both good confirms and hard read tools. And then special attention to whatever it is that you call f-smash... just think about it, a kill move that's also a safe spacing tool? Many characters would give up a fifth to a quarter of their moveset for a tool like that.

MK still kills earlier and more reliably than 80 to 90% of the cast, and in fact his high-% kills may be even more reliable now.

The ladder often didn't work at high level because people played at the ledge at %s where they were likely to die. This gave Meta Knight stage control, which was nice, but has been compensated for at least partially by f-air, although it could have been buffed a little more. 16f landing lag makes f-air usable but not abusable in neutral; for f-air to be a staple in MK's neutral it would have to be 13 or 14f landing lag, given its 9f startup, but it's a nice mixup on a character who relies on rolls and empty hops to bait commitments and whiff punish--a common situation prepatch was MK using empty hop to bait an option and getting swatted by a reactive f-air because f-air just wasn't safe enough to swing.

Overall he seems to be the same. I'd be hard-pressed to call him worse and my first inclination was to think that he was in fact better, although the SDI multiplier seems to hamper him more than I had originally believed.

As for Charizard (not that anyone is talking about Charizard now lol), meh. He feels better but is he better in practice, in real matches? His landing lag improved... but it's still bad. If you could punish him before you'll still be able to punish him now. I'd rather have seen adjustments to his autocancels. B-air being more consistent is really nice, but overall I don't think the character's viability has changed half as much as people think it has.

 

[C0rvus]

I think best dash attack goes to Greninja now, actually...

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm probably gonna drop Samus now.
No, but seriously, the old sound effect was actually one of the most satisfying things about Samus. Her dash attack is really pretty different now, the 10% is like the sourspot and the new 7% hitbox is the majority of the move. But it's so good... It retains the low FAF, burst mobility, ability to cross shields, and combo potential, but it's just so reliable and vastly improves Samus' close range punish game. If there was doubt before that Samus' had one of the best dash attacks, there can't be now.

boy, at least you don't have melee mewtwo's stupid tail sound effects lol. smash 4 mewtwo's new SFX at least sounds like they hurt.

I think best dash attack goes to Greninja now, actually...

EDIT: C0rvus Ahhh, buddy! DA - > Fair has always been a thing. Down tilt and Up air spike are much better kill setups too IMO

 

[bc1910]

I think best dash attack goes to Greninja now, actually...

He could always do that. It's a 50/50 and you can airdodge.

MK's is still better overall and Samus' might be now, but Greninja's is likely top 3.

 

[C0rvus]

Oh really? Well I guess it's an even better option now. It's really crazy how fast Greninja's dash attack is now. Feels really good. I thin he's squarely in high tier now. His gatekeeper got nerfed and he got non-trivial buffs.

Edit: And you can airdodge it too? Never watching this guy's videos again tbh.

 

[Ulevo]

Just gonna pop in to tell you all Ulevo doesn't know what the **** he's talking about with either pre-patch or post patch MK lmao.

Pre-patch MK's kill confirms had a way bigger range than 1 or 2% when either dash attack, uair, or both were staled, which always happens by the time they get to the death combo %. If it was really that precise people would never die (oh but apparently the people at Ulevo's locals were better than top players? looooool)

Post-patch MK still has very damaging uair combos at early %s that can lead into tech chases or off-stage gimps, character is worse off because the opponent doesn't die, but he's still ok. And uair actually confirms into SL reliably at kill %s now since they don't go as high and can't DI straight above you (MK's blindspot), so both hits of SL reliably connect.

No they were not. I have tested this, including staled confirms. Have you? The reason people died to the combo at wider % ranges is because they would DI improperly, particularly they would DI away at the higher end of the window which would extend the range the combo worked at while it would fail if they DI'd in. Conversely, the combos worked sooner if the opponent DI'd inward before the true window, though this was less common. It is not surprising players would fall victim to this, given how long it took to lab.

Not that I care if you believe me because it is a moot point now that patch 1.1.4 is gone. I am just tired of seeing such empty arrogance. You were like this too regarding the Sheik match up, and look how that turned out.

 

[Djent]

Uhh, you guys gonna be all right? Because it sure looks like the new ends friendships faster than the old one ended stocks.

Anyway, does anyone know if Final Round 19 is running 1.1.5? The only truly top-level player in attendance will be ANTi, but there are also some solid tier 2 players as well (Reflex, ScAtt, Fatality, Day, etc.). So it could potentially give us good data.

 

[bc1910]

Oh really? Well I guess it's an even better option now. It's really crazy how fast Greninja's dash attack is now. Feels really good. I thin he's squarely in high tier now. His gatekeeper got nerfed and he got non-trivial buffs.

Edit: And you can airdodge it too? Never watching this guy's videos again tbh.

People love making post-patch videos about stuff that buffed characters could do before. That Zelda hoo hah was already in the game as well. The timing was tighter due to Uair having a smaller hitbox, plus it kills better now, but yeah. With a shoulder button set to jump and C-stick set to tilt, it was fairly easy.

Though in regard to Greninja DA > Fair there may be some nuance with the buffed startup/hitbox placement that I'm not appreciating - I've had way fewer people airdodging out of this than normal. On paper though, it should be the same.

His DA does feel amazing now, I grant you. I think I mentioned this before but it's now the fastest DA in the game in terms of total frames. The Greninja buffs + Sheik nerfs have certainly cemented his high tier status IMO.

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh really? Well I guess it's an even better option now. It's really crazy how fast Greninja's dash attack is now. Feels really good. I thin he's squarely in high tier now. His gatekeeper got nerfed and he got non-trivial buffs.

Edit: And you can airdodge it too? Never watching this guy's videos again tbh.

I think the pointer not to trust him was: plz nerf greninja

 

[Ghostbone]

He could always do that. It's a 50/50 and you can airdodge.

Not to mention that if they DI away it doesn't work.

 

[Amadeus9]

No they were not. I have tested this, including staled confirms. Have you? The reason people died to the combo at wider % ranges is because they would DI improperly, particularly they would DI away at the higher end of the window which would extend the range the combo worked at while it would fail if they DI'd in. Conversely, the combos worked sooner if the opponent DI'd inward before the true window, though this was less common. It is not surprising players would fall victim to this, given how long it took to lab.

Not that I care if you believe me because it is a moot point now that patch 1.1.4 is gone. I am just tired of seeing such empty arrogance. You were like this too regarding the Sheik match up, and look how that turned out.

Ghost is number 1 in australia, and ive seen his uair notes, they are a lot better than the guides ive seen you make

And wtf are u even talking about with di. What idiot was going to di in, thats just begging to die at 0%

 

[Megamang]

If you can airdodge but not jump out, there is a tiny frame gap since you can airdodge out of hitstun.

Like, a gap that could have been closed by the buff. It might confirm straight up at certain %.


Guys, you're both pretty. STFU.


Im seriously scared, greninja having confirms from bair and DA (if you mess up DI apparently, but that isn't that hard with a fast dash attack, especially since you don't want to be holding away against a quick d-throw near the ledge.

 

[Locuan]

Edit: And you can airdodge it too? Never watching this guy's videos again tbh.

Not related to Greninja in particular but addressing testing/training mode...

It's always good to keep note of what is being tested, and how it's being tested. When I try setups or what have you, I always write down the environment I'm testing in. For example,

• Training mode
• No DI
• Battlefield
• etc. etc.

That way, you can have a clear picture of how, and when scenarios are plausible. From there one can say ok, X or Y parameter is not taken into consideration and I have to keep that in mind. So take that Greninja video for example. It was training mode and little to no information was given on how the video uploader was testing. So from what we can see we it's simply showcasing a string/setup that doesn't take airdodging, DI, etc. into account. As the viewer, and especially as competitive players, we should then think, "Ok, what would happen if we threw in those variables? Would it still work? How can I make it work?" and any future questions that may arise due to testing.

Just a bit of info on a good, in this case kind of scientific, mindset on how to approach video's and data that's presented~

 

[thehard]

-lol ignore-

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh really? Well I guess it's an even better option now. It's really crazy how fast Greninja's dash attack is now. Feels really good. I thin he's squarely in high tier now. His gatekeeper got nerfed and he got non-trivial buffs.

Edit: And you can airdodge it too? Never watching this guy's videos again tbh.

I just checked this is the same guy who "discovered" Marth's down throw to up air

lab monster wannabes are the worst, huh?

but yeah greninja's does have one of the best dash attacks in the game.

and if you ever want to see greninja's kill setups (he has quite a few) there's a thread for it just now actually. it's still a work in progress tho:
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-kill-setups.433302/

 

[Ulevo]

Ghost is number 1 in australia, and ive seen his uair notes, they are a lot better than the guides ive seen you make

And wtf are u even talking about with di. What idiot was going to di in, thats just begging to die at 0%

Being a top player does not make you immaculate, nor informed. It makes you skilled.

And the concept of DIing in is simple. If you DI'd the combo in and you needed X amount of up airs to kill, eventually the knock back from the up airs will get high enough that one of them will miss because DIing inward makes you go straight up and thus higher than to the side which makes you go up less. This allowed the opponent to avoid the last up air that was needed to seal a kill. If you needed 5, you could only land 4. If you needed 4, you could only land 3. Then DIing the Shutlle Loop and the last up air away would ensure you didn't die.

I could give you specific examples if you like.

 

[bc1910]

If you can airdodge but not jump out, there is a tiny frame gap since you can airdodge out of hitstun.

Like, a gap that could have been closed by the buff. It might confirm straight up at certain %.


Guys, you're both pretty. STFU.


Im seriously scared, greninja having confirms from bair and DA (if you mess up DI apparently, but that isn't that hard with a fast dash attack, especially since you don't want to be holding away against a quick d-throw near the ledge.

Not sure if the first part of your post references MK or Greninja, but assuming it's Greninja, the DA buff was to the startup and not the endlag. So it should combo in exactly the same way it did before, it just hits you earlier. Though as I said there may be some nuance I'm not appreciating.

And yeah, it hits quick enough for DI to not affect things too much. It kinda did before as well (you weren't much more likely to react to 8f startup than 6f startup). If an opponent manages to DI it they were probably retreating anyway. Holding away from Dthrow at the ledge is actually the correct thing to do because it prevents Greninja from following up, but if Greninja Fthrows then you're in a horrible position so it's a nice 50/50. No DI can be met with an Uthrow that kills about 5% sooner than it should.

The 50/50 is still better because DA is better, just note that it's still a 50/50 and not a confirm.

 

[Pazx]

Just read through 20+ pages of this thread. That's a lot of posts, fortunately at least a few of them were interesting. Patch excitement I guess, right guys? Always good to see MK mains here to entertain the rest of us.

That's it, I'm done with this balance team. Needles untouched, Limit Cross Slash untouched, no love for (I suppose).

This is a particularly funny post to look back on.

A bit pointless now, but ZeRo's 1.14 tier list has Mewtwo at #35, below, Shulk, Dr. Mario, Olimar, and Lucina.

Robin and Wii Fit trainer were also below those 4, with WFT additionally being below Lucas, King DeDeDe, Falco, Little Mac, and a low tier.

You might want to re-watch the tier list videos, WFT is above Yoshi of all characters according to ZeRo.

~~~~~~

ANYWAY, for some actual content... Diddy is not a big winner this patch, and if you think he is it's likely because you were underrating him to begin with. He's probably gone from being top 6 to being top 5, but it's not all sunshine and rainbows. Hear me out.

In 1.1.4, Diddy did better against both Sheik and ZSS than almost any other character in the game. Seriously, try to name a non-Sheik/Cloud/ZSS character that does better than Diddy did against both of the queens of Smash 4. The top tiers being nerfed is good for Diddy when he's facing them, but in the long run it's probably not all that great for him as the characters he struggled with (not necessarily lost to, but Rosa, Villager, Pikachu, Fox, Sonic and [somewhat randomly] Luigi were all viewed as difficult matchups in one way or another) were mostly kept in check by the top 2. Any patch that Rosalina comes out as a winner, Diddy has to be considered a loser. I'm glad Cloud is a thing, because I think Diddy + Cloud is a combination with no losing matchups, MVD sniffed that one out well. It's not all doom and gloom now, as long as Sheik and ZSS continue to be super popular characters Diddy will undoubtedly remain relevant as one of the few characters who goes even or better against both of them.

Those weren't the only 2 characters Diddy had notably good matchups against in 1.1.4, and fortunately the following remains true in 1.1.5 as well: Diddy likely has advantageous matchups against, or does considerably better than the rest of the cast against Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Bayonetta and CLOUD.

This is a lot of theory, but I've played these matchups myself, many of them from both sides, and I've looked for high level examples.


This matchup has been talked about enough so I'll leave it, but I'd like to say the changes to throws means DIing away + jumping + monkey flipping is now super safe. Edgeguarding is still rough for us.


ZSS basically has to work harder (eg. hit us more) now to get the pre-patch levels of reward, good luck doing that against banana+fair. IZAC fair is really good in this matchup. Edit: there's obviously more nuance to this matchup but saying Diddy beats ZSS isn't a hugely controversial opinion and I don't feel like writing more at this time.


Pre-patch the matchup went something like "we win neutral pretty convincingly [and we are one of the only characters to do so], but then we die at 40%, so it's relatively even". I know results sadly don't support this claim, but I also think top Diddies don't play the matchup correctly (banana is OP, play very defensively and maintain positioning around the ledge, don't get gimped). It seems when Zinoto started to figure things out he couldn't find an answer to Ito camping with dair, so there is a lot more work to be done on this matchup from both sides, however I think we can all agree that MK losing his most powerful tool means a matchup he already found difficult is likely going to become more difficult. I await to see how the fair change affects this matchup.

Now, the matchup goes something like "we win neutral pretty convincingly, but then we get edgeguarded and die at 40%, so it's relatively even, but definitely better for us and far less volatile than before".


The question on everybody's lips after Bayonetta was released was "what does this character struggle against?", and while it hasn't proven to be 100% true some of the attributes suggested were the following: good neutral, good projectile, good command grab, good grab game in general, safe kill confirms (eg. better than 50/50s). Multi hit moves are also a plus. Diddy checks all of those boxes, and Seagull Joe, one of the pioneers for a character thought to be an answer to Bayonetta agrees. I may be wrong or he may have changed his mind, but Seagull, who lives in the same region as and regularly trains with Pink Fresh seems to think Diddy is a very strong choice for Bayonetta.


It looked grim after M2K beat MVD, didn't it? Zinoto has avenged his monkey brethren by eliminating M2K 3-1 at Shuffle VIII, and Angel Cortes recently eliminated Tweek at Do or DI. ZeRo's set against M2K at PAX (I think) wasn't looking too bad for DDK either, he switched to Sheik in the end but if you look at the games he played Diddy Kong in you would be hard pressed to come to the conclusion that the matchup is any worse than even for Diddy. The main issue in this matchup for us is that Cloud is able to capitalise on an offstage Diddy while the reverse is not true, and the stagelist we use currently gives Cloud a looooot of room to run away and charge limit. Edgeguarding Cloud is certainly not impossible, especially with a banana in hand, but choosing not to edgeguard and instead hold stage control is a viable option as well - Diddy is one of the few characters that can play the neutral game against Cloud, that is to say Diddy is one of the few characters that doesn't struggle to get him offstage in the first place. The banana is mightier than the sword, if recent results are anything to go by.

PS. We also beat

#hoohah

 

[Ghostbone]

And the concept of DIing in is simple. If you DI'd the combo in and you needed X amount of up airs to kill, eventually the knock back from the up airs will get high enough that one of them will miss because DIing inward makes you go straight up and thus higher than to the side which makes you go up less. This allowed the opponent to avoid the last up air that was needed to seal a kill. If you needed 5, you could only land 4. If you needed 4, you could only land 3. Then DIing the Shutlle Loop and the last up air away would ensure you didn't die.

And if the uair is stale, suddenly you get 5 uairs instead of 4, or 4 uairs instead of 3, sealing the KO. Same principle lmao

Not to mention that even with fresh uairs, you can kill from less uairs if they DI in and you get sweetspot up-b anyway lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yo, MK Mains, take your "sword" waving contests back to your character board plz. Nobody wants to look at your swords, we all know they're the smallest swords in the game anyways. Except for Toon Link, but he's a kid, that don't count.

Greninja mains: fake combos aside, how many actual kill confirms did you all pick up after this patch? Or is it just damaging combos?