Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[valakmtnsmash4]

Honestly, most Shulk players that have been able to rep him in the American scene really haven't labbed enough, which makes sense since most of them don't main him. If you want a good Shulk, you need to LAB. Lab the different timings for MALLCs, lab the timing of pivot art activations, lab art deactivation buffering etc etc. Most people also play him waay too streamlined. "Monado speed? BETTER TRY GETTING FIVE PIVOT GRABS" He's a character that's centered around precise spacing, frame trapping and fake outs. He's not supposed to play like any other swordie, that's why you can't play him like one.

Thank you.
First person I see on smashboards who thinks the same as other Shulk mains. Honestly, Mallc is just scratching the surface with shulk.

 

[Nobie]

As a read-based character, it's probably healthy for the meta that Ganondorf isn't too powerful. If he were actually top tier, that would likely mean his weaknesses are either negligible to the point of not mattering, and/or that he would have some ridiculously skewed matchups.

The problem with Ganondorf, and why I like the buffs he's received, was that he could just be forced into certain situations where he was pretty much helpless. You could checkmate Ganondorf in a lot of ways, like through a ridiculously powerful projectile game, or through just being able to out-button him completely in some circumstances. By having a Wizard's Foot that can essentially act as a decent counterattack + approach tool, and by having a jab that's "fast enough," the patch helps him avoid his worst scenarios better. He's probably going to still have an uphill battle against a lot of characters, but I always think it's asking a bit much for a patch to turn a character's matchups completely around. If you can bait out Sheik's needles now, have them whiff, and then kick Sheik in the face with the purple foot, that's good enough for me.

(PS Someone test if you can kick Sheik in the face from outside Needle range now).

 

[Das Koopa]

Shockwave 76 @ Plano results (130 entrants, March 16th 2016)

Spoiler

1st: Karna
2nd: Awestin

3rd: Denti

4th: Cosmos

5th: Gyo

5th: Sassy

7th: Dakpo

7th: YellowRello

9th: P2P With Gibus

9th: Aerolink

9th: CalmAnimal

9th: Phenom

13th: Deezus

13th: Mew^2

13th: Johan

13th: LiLPac

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Shockwave 76 @ Plano results (130 entrants, March 16th 2016)

Spoiler

1st: Karna
2nd: Awestin

3rd: Denti

4th: Cosmos

5th: Gyo

5th: Sassy

7th: Dakpo

7th: YellowRello

9th: P2P With Gibus

9th: Aerolink

9th: CalmAnimal

9th: Phenom

13th: Deezus

13th: Mew^2

13th: Johan

13th: LiLPac

Shiek is the real winner this patch lol

 

[Luco]

There are those ROB results we were all wondering about. Right there.

In top 16, we have literally just

x2
x1

That's actually insane. Also out of a 130-man tournament, seeing LM there is very cool.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sorry to burst your bubble guys but that tournament honestly wasn't much more than a regional with strong attendance :/

 

[Luco]

Sorry to burst your bubble guys but that tournament honestly wasn't much more than a regional with strong attendance :/

Yeah, it's true, but it's fun to think about nonetheless and discuss. =P

As in, it's the first 130-man+ tournament since the patch dropped, so it draws interest pretty easily. I doubt we'll get any real data from this patch for a few weeks while data accumulates itself up / the next national... Speaking of which, when is that?

 

[G. Stache]

I was watching the rerun of Xanadu today. So obviously, I was watching Boss. I've gotta say: while he still lost to Hyuga during the set, Boss made the Toon Link MU for Luigi look closer to even than I personally thought (if you take into consideration that Hyuga is more on ConCon's level than Boss'). And, while the last game wasn't that close: one could argue that it was because it was on FD (a stage that's good for Tink and quite bad for Luigi) and Boss lost his cool fishing for kills instead of playing Luigi's game. So, we know that Tink loses to shield a bit. But what about patient play in general? The reason that Boss would take on a lot of percent is because he would get a bit aggravated and rush in. But as soon as he waited patiently for a chance to get in, he did perfectly fine against Hyuga's Toon Link.

TL; DR: does Toon Link just require more patient play to win? Or does patient play result in Toon Link comfortably playing his game?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, it's true, but it's fun to think about nonetheless and discuss. =P

As in, it's the first 130-man+ tournament since the patch dropped, so it draws interest pretty easily. I doubt we'll get any real data from this patch for a few weeks while data accumulates itself up / the next national... Speaking of which, when is that?

This weekend has Midwest Mayhem but I don't know if they'll use the new patch already.

Pound VI will be coming up in early April, I think that'll be the first supermajor after the patch in the USA. Not sure how Japan is gonna handle the new patches.

 

[HoSmash4]

Yeah, it's true, but it's fun to think about nonetheless and discuss. =P

As in, it's the first 130-man+ tournament since the patch dropped, so it draws interest pretty easily. I doubt we'll get any real data from this patch for a few weeks while data accumulates itself up / the next national... Speaking of which, when is that?

2GGT Fow Saga next weekend. So we get to see Zero and Void in action.

This weekend has Midwest Mayhem but I don't know if they'll use the new patch already.

Pound VI will be coming up in early April, I think that'll be the first supermajor after the patch in the USA. Not sure how Japan is gonna handle the new patches.

5.99 seems to be the future in Japan. Expect their Sheiks to perform worse especially with the meta japan plays.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japan didn't have that many Sheik players left to begin with. Nietono has never been loyal to any character and Rain has been dabbling around with Cloud a lot. It's basically just Shu and Edge that may or may not stick with her.

Though it doesn't look like Japan is gonna have a major tournament in a while in the first place.

 

[Das Koopa]

Karna's the best player in the DFW area so take this all with a grain of salt; he got 49th at Genesis 3 so this isn't the tip-top of meta competition. It's a decent-looking regional.

FOW Saga and Pound 6 will be big stress tests on what the new patch is like

 

[HoSmash4]

I wouldnt be too suprised Fow beats Void and takes games off Zero if they face. If Zero had 1.1.5 Sheik vs Ranai I think he'd lose for sure. I think this patch will definitely take off Sheik's crown of being #1 and having no losing matchups. She has to win neutral a ridiculous amount of times now even beyond 120%.

Even in pre 1.1.5, it only really was Zero and Mr.R/Void making top 8 of majors. I'm interested to see the results sheiks post across different skill levels.

 

[bc1910]

It'll be nice when certain people in this thread stop pretending that low key results aren't better than no results. Anything above a small regional is worth noting.

Anyway, I'm also predicting a loss for VoiD soon. Potentially against FOW. If he really has labbed some "new" (read: suboptimal for 1.1.4 Sheik) kill confirms then I'm looking forward to seeing them in action.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This weekend has Midwest Mayhem but I don't know if they'll use the new patch already.

Pound VI will be coming up in early April, I think that'll be the first supermajor after the patch in the USA. Not sure how Japan is gonna handle the new patches.

Joe Bones isn't silly enough to not run 1.15. I will be surely disappointed if I go to tourney playing last patch.

 

[2fast]

Zero will probably start using diddy a lot more (maybe dropping Shiek) and I could see Shieks actually being required to learn VoiD tech now to stand a chance at super majors. Looking at Mr. R play false on his stream, he definitely seemed like he was not happy with Shieks killing potential now and I'm wondering if he might switch characters entirely eventually.

Shiek will stay high tier but will most likely drop out of top 5 and be placed with Mario and Pikachu (eg: the high combo and gimp potential but no killing power characters).

 

[HeavyLobster]

As a read-based character, it's probably healthy for the meta that Ganondorf isn't too powerful. If he were actually top tier, that would likely mean his weaknesses are either negligible to the point of not mattering, and/or that he would have some ridiculously skewed matchups.

The problem with Ganondorf, and why I like the buffs he's received, was that he could just be forced into certain situations where he was pretty much helpless. You could checkmate Ganondorf in a lot of ways, like through a ridiculously powerful projectile game, or through just being able to out-button him completely in some circumstances. By having a Wizard's Foot that can essentially act as a decent counterattack + approach tool, and by having a jab that's "fast enough," the patch helps him avoid his worst scenarios better. He's probably going to still have an uphill battle against a lot of characters, but I always think it's asking a bit much for a patch to turn a character's matchups completely around. If you can bait out Sheik's needles now, have them whiff, and then kick Sheik in the face with the purple foot, that's good enough for me.

(PS Someone test if you can kick Sheik in the face from outside Needle range now).

Yeah, that kind of sums up a lot of what this patch means for Dorf. Basically now his best tools from a distance, Wizkick and DA, are more threatening, and Wizkick now goes through stuff like lemons and Bullet Climax, in both cases being a critical option in those MUs. Jab is also now something that you can throw out against rushdown decently well. Basically his buffs hit key areas to make him consistently threatening in neutral, and this makes opponents easier to condition.

 

[Y2Kay]

shoutouts to @Mr. Johan for getting 13th at shockwave last night

 

[Pazzo.]

shoutouts to @Mr. Johan for getting 13th at shockwave last night

Robin represent.

I know it's a small change, but getting our jab improved definitely helps.

 

[BunbUn129]

After a bit of testing and playing with other people, and discussing with other MK mains, these are my observations on how the changes affect Meta Knight's gameplan.

The good:
-Fair is a functional move! A safe poke that confirms into combos at low percents and sets up edge-guards at high percents. And it KO's somewhat reasonably (160% at the ledge), so MK doesn't need to rely on reads or his up throw to KO at such percents.

-Up air: 1% damage decrease allows it to combo for longer. The new angle allows it to combo into his other aerials more effectively than before, dair in particular (note: these follow-ups were always possible, just easier post-patch). This means landing a bair at low percents for a jab lock is easier as well. Finally, and perhaps most important of all, the new angle combos more consistently into SL's sweetspot, meaning both hits will land more often.

The bad:

-Up air: though the stairwell is possible even with good DI now, it works 10-20% later due to the reduced KB and angle. Furthermore, Meta Knight will have to go offstage more often to finish the combo, making it riskier.

First, kudos to @Ulevo for not jumping the gun like me and other MK mains did, and for taking time to figure out the true effects of the nerfs. Second, all of what I mentioned above just shows how intelligent the nerf was (plz forgive me Sakurai, you da bess): they toned down MK's best tool, rather than ripping it out. He can still KO early off the top with it, but the fact that it does so 20% later means the stairwell doesn't completely overshadow his other options. And they improved his other options to compensate and encourage their use.

So, Meta Knight is still good, still definitely top 10 (especially considering he probably had the worst top-tier MU vs pre-patch), and is overall a much smarter and more honest character. Since MK players can't put as much focus on their best punish, this will teach us to work and improve on our fundamentals.

And guess what? Because the nature of the Sheik MU is up in the air, Meta Knight no longer has a definitive hard counter, which hopefully means he will grow even more. Since Sheik players have been disheartened by the nerfs to her KOing ability, I'm guessing we're gonna see more MK players in the future, because he has a lot of what pre-patch Sheik had: strong neutral, great advantage and disadvantage, and most of all, powerful KOing ability.

And some people (myself included) were like "rip MK low-tier now, no up air."

 

[Pazzo.]

I love how the opinion of Meta Knight's viability goes up and down like a roller coaster.

He trash -> He's great! -> He's nerfed! -> He's still great!

Not criticizing or anything. I just find it interesting when compared to most characters.

So how's our top 10?

?

 

[BunbUn129]

I love how the opinion of Meta Knight's viability goes up and down like a roller coaster.

He trash -> He's great! -> He's nerfed! -> He's still great!

Not criticizing or anything. I just find it interesting when compared to most characters.

So how's our top 10?

?

It's hilarious. We thought we got /'d.

But it turns out we only got 'd, so we still good, bruh.

Allah be praised for such mercy from the nerf-hammer.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Real talk Samus is pretty cool this patch. I like her new Dash Attack hitbox (the reduced endlag on Dash Attack is also insane for her good her DA was before already. Thanks!)

Nair being a kill move is really awesome. It's only one frame faster than Bair but the coverage and versatility is nice, and it does not require spacing IIRC.

New Ftilt is also amazing and great for spacing now. Just the increased reward and KB in general makes it cool now.

Wonder what the general consensus on her is now?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Real talk Samus is pretty cool this patch. I like her new Dash Attack hitbox (the reduced endlag on Dash Attack is also insane for her good her DA was before already. Thanks!)

Nair being a kill move is really awesome. It's only one frame faster than Bair but the coverage and versatility is nice, and it does not require spacing IIRC.

New Ftilt is also amazing and great for spacing now. Just the increased reward and KB in general makes it cool now.

Wonder what the general consensus on her is now?

I played Samus for a while but then dropped her a day before the patch, now I'm picking her back up again. She feels so fluid now. Definitely top of low tier or bottom of mid tier

 

[bc1910]

I love how the opinion of Meta Knight's viability goes up and down like a roller coaster.

He trash -> He's great! -> He's nerfed! -> He's still great!

Not criticizing or anything. I just find it interesting when compared to most characters.

So how's our top 10?

?

Ryu, Mario and Ness could all be top 10.

I want to see MK in action before forming any judgements. I'm tired of this theorycraft rollercoaster.

 

[Trifroze]

With proper SDI taken into account I'm pretty sure you can get far enough from MK between consecutive uairs that you can airdodge before he reaches you as long as you're in tumble. Rosalina probably still gets bopped though, but I wouldn't underestimate dual stick SDI.

 

[Rizen]

@ZaneThePure got 17th going solo Link at shockwave btw
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...read-25th-october.404196/page-5#post-21004174

You don't see many top 8 Links in large events but he often turns up in the top 20. IDK how he stacks up post patch but don't write him off as a low tier. Link's gotten many buffs over the various patches even though he only got small KBG buffs on 2 moves (Dsmash2 and DA) this time.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yeah, that kind of sums up a lot of what this patch means for Dorf. Basically now his best tools from a distance, Wizkick and DA, are more threatening, and Wizkick now goes through stuff like lemons and Bullet Climax, in both cases being a critical option in those MUs. Jab is also now something that you can throw out against rushdown decently well. Basically his buffs hit key areas to make him consistently threatening in neutral, and this makes opponents easier to condition.

Having Ganondorf's WizKick actually go through projectiles otherwise unable to be gone through makes his Bayonetta MU not as atrociously bad as last time. That and it makes certain projectile-character MUs more bearable than last time, and could actually make the Mega Man MU somewhat in Ganondorf's favor now since he doesn't need to worry about Lemons or Metal Blade anymore.

I'm actually going to be excited to see what will turn out for Ganondorf in the future, and maybe since MUs are significantly better for him, we won't be seeing him in bottom tier? Time may tell on this.

@ZaneThePure got 17th going solo Link at shockwave btw
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...read-25th-october.404196/page-5#post-21004174

You don't see many top 8 Links in large events but he often turns up in the top 20. IDK how he stacks up post patch but don't write him off as a low tier. Link's gotten many buffs over the various patches even though he only got small KBG buffs on 2 moves (Dsmash2 and DA) this time.

Well that's nice to hear; sadly people don't ever want to really post the top 32 on this thread. But I think Link can stack up better in this patch against some of the lighter or bigger characters and ones with bad recoveries. Dash Attack's buffs make it easier for him to kill opponents who are lighter or just bigger, and D-Smash can potentially trump opponents with bad recoveries with how it works out. If Link can start D-Smashing backwards against Cloud's D-Tilt, maybe Link can get an edge over him in that other sense.

Though that's theory, it'd be nice to see.
And like I said about Ganondorf, time may tell. Since the top tiers got nerfed significantly, Link's only going to get better MUs against them, so he may end up linking into middle tier or upper low tier.

 

[TDK]

A bit pointless now, but ZeRo's 1.14 tier list has Mewtwo at #35, below, Shulk, Dr. Mario, Olimar, and Lucina.

Robin and Wii Fit trainer were also below those 4, with WFT additionally being below Lucas, King DeDeDe, Falco, Little Mac, and a low tier.

 

[Tri Knight]

I was watching the rerun of Xanadu today. So obviously, I was watching Boss. I've gotta say: while he still lost to Hyuga during the set, Boss made the Toon Link MU for Luigi look closer to even than I personally thought (if you take into consideration that Hyuga is more on ConCon's level than Boss'). And, while the last game wasn't that close: one could argue that it was because it was on FD (a stage that's good for Tink and quite bad for Luigi) and Boss lost his cool fishing for kills instead of playing Luigi's game. So, we know that Tink loses to shield a bit. But what about patient play in general? The reason that Boss would take on a lot of percent is because he would get a bit aggravated and rush in. But as soon as he waited patiently for a chance to get in, he did perfectly fine against Hyuga's Toon Link.

TL; DR: does Toon Link just require more patient play to win? Or does patient play result in Toon Link comfortably playing his game?

Yes you can play patiently against Toon Link but it doesnt mean you gave yourself an advantage by doing so. Remember, Toon Link takes patience to use in general. Tink will more than likely end up forcing you in. He's extremely good for that. And as for Boss fishing for kills, Hyuga got Marss to do the same in their match in Genesis (though he lost to that one still).

Just watch Hyuga play if you haven't already. Especially his recent Genesis matches, taking down Nairo, etc. Zan is also a great reference too. Both are up there as the best Tink's.

 

[jespoke]

How about Ryu? Last i was here, and on the tierlist on page 1, he was regarded pretty highly. How were his matchups against the ladies at the top before?

 

[2fast]

So how's our top 10?

?

It's a stretch to have both Mario and Sonic in top 10 over Ryu. If we're going by overall tournament results than Ryu won't make the cut because of representation but fighting a good Ryu is far more terrifying than a good Mario or Sonic.

Shiek and MK are up in the air atm.

 

[C0rvus]

Shockwave 76 @ Plano results (130 entrants, March 16th 2016)

Spoiler

1st: Karna
2nd: Awestin

3rd: Denti

4th: Cosmos

5th: Gyo

5th: Sassy

7th: Dakpo

7th: YellowRello

9th: P2P With Gibus

9th: Aerolink

9th: CalmAnimal

9th: Phenom

13th: Deezus

13th: Mew^2

13th: Johan

13th: LiLPac

Happy for Karna. I saw him struggling a bit against that Mario, but had to stop watching. I guess Sheik didn't get gutted totally.
And ew Denti would be playing Cloud. What a fraud.

 

[sedrf]

I still think sheik is top tier.
-amazing frame data
-developed tech
-good throws
-best (formely broken) projectile that could ony get better if it could be short hopped or
did sheild damage
- that stupid fair hitbox
-and her amazing options
she just went from broken to strong

 

[Spinosaurus]

Charizard feels great. He flows really well now, thanks to the landing lag reduction and air speed buff. Playing him isn't so jarring anymore because you can actually move in the air!

Too early to say where he'll end up, but I'm pretty excited for him. BAir is kinda nasty now.

 

[Goesasu]

I still think sheik is top tier.
-amazing frame data
-developed tech
-good throws
-best (formely broken) projectile that could ony get better if it could be short hopped or
did sheild damage
- that stupid fair hitbox
-and her amazing options
she just went from broken to strong

New fair hitbox has like no range whatsoever. Any swordsman can outspace it like a breeze.

 

[DanGR]

With proper SDI taken into account I'm pretty sure you can get far enough from MK between consecutive uairs that you can airdodge before he reaches you as long as you're in tumble. Rosalina probably still gets bopped though, but I wouldn't underestimate dual stick SDI.

I'm pretty sure dual stick SDI was removed in Smash4. QCDI is the new cool thing.

 

[BunbUn129]

With proper SDI taken into account I'm pretty sure you can get far enough from MK between consecutive uairs that you can airdodge before he reaches you as long as you're in tumble. Rosalina probably still gets bopped though, but I wouldn't underestimate dual stick SDI.

I think they increased the SDI multiplier to compensate for the reduced KB. If they reduced the KB and changed the angle, but left the SDI untouched, they would've probably broken the move even more by making it harder to escape.

The way they nerfed it, it seems they nerfed it specifically to make it KO later, not to invalidate it--if their intent was to remove it entirely, I'm guessing they would've increased the KB or changed the angle even more.

But until we see it in action at the high-level, it's really just observations.

Whatever happens, at least the neutral is in the house!

Edit: this looks funny:

https://vine.co/v/iwl063PMwwL

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Nevermind this.

 

[jespoke]

New fair hitbox has like no range whatsoever. Any swordsman can outspace it like a breeze.

Try to find the picture of the hitbix difference in the patch discussion thread. No range is a gross overstatement

Edit: This thread http://smashboards.com/threads/and-then-suddenly-1-1-5-patch-discussion.433163/page-10 , post 375